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Jason Kuznicki notes that geneticists find that almost everyone of some European descent descends from Charlemagne. But the same math that shows us the Charlemagne link also tells us this:

"If the most wretched peasant of Charlemagne’s empire has any descendants now living, then we are all her children, too. That’s just how this genetic math works."

#racism #classism #nationalism #genetics
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liberalcurrents.com/they-were-…

in reply to William Lindsey

"And there were a lot more wretched-but-fertile peasants in Francia than there were paladins at the short-lived court of the emperor. When you make a family tree, you don’t get to pick only the winners. Reach back impartially, and we’re all from an exactly equal set of ancestors. …

Delving into your ancestry will not reveal that you spring from a natural aristocracy. It will show that we have all been brothers, like it or not."

#racism #classism #nationalism #genetics
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in reply to William Lindsey

"We’re all more closely related than we know, and our family has been murdering its own.

I’d think a realization like that should send every nationalist running for the shelter of cosmopolitan liberalism. Here we will treat you as a man and a brother, no matter who you are, and nowhere else can promise that. Let’s build a polity that’s faithful to the memory of all of our ancestors."

P.S. I don't know why Kuznicki uses male-gendered terms here.

#racism #classism #nationalism #genetics
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This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to William Lindsey

I understand DNA testing is prohibited in Israel but I’m sure some enterprising organisation could quietly do some DNA profiling of Israeli volunteers and compare them with the general population in Palestine. They have to realise they are the same people.
in reply to Peter Brown

@peterbrown Yes — just as DNA analysis has shown that the people of the British Isles, from English to Scots to Welsh to Irish and Manx, all share the same substratum of pre-Celtic or Ur-Celtic genes and are essentially one people. I find that discovery fascinating as someone whose ancestry (and DNA) is largely English, with a good sprinkling of Scottish and Irish added to the mix, and a bit of Welsh blood, as well.
in reply to William Lindsey

yes, after the ice sheet started to melt at the end of the ice age the people round the Mediterranean basin started to move up the Atlantic coast. It probably took more than 1000 years, but eventually they were all the way up France, England, Wales Ireland and Scotland. And the western seaboard of those countries still has much of that that original Mediterranean DNA.

If you leave a white peely-wally unhealthy looking Scot out in the sun too long he turns into a Spaniard.

in reply to William Lindsey

I believe there is an improbably large number of genetic lines that point back to one single progenitor and the suggestion is it was probably Genghis Khan.

In Pakistan, the Hamara tradition is they are descended from Genghis Khan. Seems they share these genes, which would tend to confirm the legend.

in reply to Peter Brown

@peterbrown Kuznicki does say that he's speaking specifically of those with some European ancestry.
in reply to William Lindsey

well one does assume that since Judaism passes down the female line they will have DNA in common even if their male side is European.
in reply to William Lindsey

@peterbrown
Even in Europe there were many waves of invasions from the east, bringing successive batches of DNA that have been mixed in the general population through generations

To me, European, the so-called European blood is something like a good sauce, where so many different spices and herbs have been mixed that nobody can tell all of them, only that it tastes nice ...

We even have a steady portion of Neanderthal, and I love this 👍

in reply to RainbowFrog

@RainbowFrog @peterbrown Yes, all that's true. It's not the point this commentary is focusing on, though. He deliberately chooses the information about Charlemagne as his focus to make the point that we're highly selective about the ancestors in whom we choose to take pride, and that this impulse is quite often linked to toxic nationalism that excludes those seen as Other.
in reply to William Lindsey

100%.
I’ve lost him to the number of American visitors to this country who swear there they have a direct uninterrupted line of descent from William Wallace or Robert the Bruce.
One doesn’t want to be rude, but we have only had state records from the first half of the 19th century and patchy Parish records from about the C18th.
Both Bruce and Wallace date from the 13th century. 🫩
in reply to Peter Brown

@peterbrown @RainbowFrog I can imagine, judging from the silly myths I encounter in researching some of my Ulster Scots family lines. Our illiterate Lauderdale immigrant ancestor has been turned into a descendant of the aristocratic Maitland family of Lauderdale, and our immigrant Colhoun/Calhoun ancestor has been turned into the non-existent son of an Ulster Scots clergyman with roots traceable to the Colquhoun family of Luss House. All eminently silly….