…as the idea that growth of the kind we’ve had is not sustainable is re-entering the mainstream – 53 YEARS AFTER LIMITS TO GROWTH FFS! – it’s good to hear from someone working in the heart of finance who gets it.

And even better when they are articulate and suitably modest.

I thoroughly recommend Adrienne Buller’s latest interview.

It’s with @hans_S of Triodos Bank:

Capitalism Without Growth?
Breaking down ‘post-growth’ economics and the myths of green finance:
break-down.org/post/capitalism…

Capitalism Without Growth?

Breaking down "post-growth" economics and the myths of green finance.

^{www.break-down.org}

…It’s a shame that @hans_S is one of the thousands of people who have been here but not for over a year.

It would be great to converse with him here. Oh well

…but, as we are just 2 days away from Trump being back in The White House, there’s a bit from 36 minutes in where @hans_S frames things particularly well, I think. This will take more than one post.

Hans’s focus is *first steps*, so please bear that in mind in the following.

“[To have a different kind of capitalism, less capitalism] is possible I think, but not without any shocks”…

youtu.be/0H3tjdc3PyE?t=2109

…host Adrienne asks: “What are the first steps?”

Hans:
“In terms of transitions there are always 3 things we need to do. On the one hand, we need to build what is already possible.

The second part is criticise the system.

For some people it is relevant to explain that we live in our own narrative that we also can change. People think that economic growth is like a natural law. It is *not*. It is an invention, it is our own story of our own time and we can change it…

“…The third thing we always have to do is to show the vision, to show where we can go and how it can play out”

And here is where get to Trump and right wing populism:

“There’s always a danger that if you critiicise too much and have a vision that is too far apart, that other people with a different vision support your criticism but you end up in a completely different society.”

But do listen to the whole thing
break-down.org/post/capitalism…

Capitalism Without Growth?

Breaking down "post-growth" economics and the myths of green finance.

^{www.break-down.org}

…The thing I come back to is that putting ordinary people who don’t have elevated status in the bin is *not* how we get there.

I accept that that is difficult and traumatic work and not everyone is placed to do it.

But responding to polarisation with polarisation will not work. I’m fully aware that I’m a hypocrite in this respect, but we have to be careful of what becomes ingrained and habitual, is all

mastodon.social/@urlyman/11384…

Jonathan Schofield (@urlyman@mastodon.social)

Attached: 1 image …how does one engineer the survival of democracy by putting half of one’s own country in the bin, while standing in a bin fire fuelled by one’s own side? Can that work?

^Mastodon

…Adding this to the main thread, in light of replies:

From 04:35 in…

“Degrowth is the realisation that we have to do less, given where we are now. Post-growth is being there.”

…

“We have created an economic system that can only survive if it grows, which is very strange for a system.

Then people say, ‘Hey because that is a fact, that’s why degrowth is impossible’ – but that’s because if you build a system that’s dependent upon growth, of course it’s dependent upon growth! But…

“…you can change a lot of things in the system so that it becomes less growth dependent.”

Hans then talks about decoupling but points out it’s not going fast enough but also, crucially, it’s only about carbon emissions and not, for example, resource use…

…Hans cites the UN Bend the Curve report which explores some degrowth and sufficiency ideas but highlights that

“In the report, in 2060, resource use would be 20% higher than it is today. And there was one crucial assumption they did not change and that was economic growth. And we know that resource use has to *decrease*.”

…from about 13:00 in Hans gets into practical examples of how to move away from the growth imperative.

If you start with the structures, you can naturally end up with very different distributions and dynamics.

“Pension funds put all their money on financial markets. They need an 8% return annually. This leads to a growth imperative in the system.”

Hans suggests different ways this money could be used. I’m not going to transcribe/excerpt him further.

Have a listen youtu.be/0H3tjdc3PyE?t=769