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Increasingly the UK is being required to choose; are we Europeans or are we in partnership with the USA?

Many of us may feel European, but our political class (and right now especially our Govt.) when pushed to choose, seem to prefer to focus on transatlantic relations rather than rebuilding the relations across the channel.

Its increasingly clear this is very much the wrong choice....

#politics #EU

theguardian.com/commentisfree/…

This entry was edited (6 days ago)
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

The European political class has managed 35 years of advanced strategic idiocy.

The end of the Cold War provided a unique opportunity to build a common European home. But instead European leaders preferred to keep Europe divided on Cold War lines, but with the border pushed eastwards, in breach of clear promises to Gorbachev.

That expansion alienated Russia, and left Europe dependent on American muscle. Now America has left Europe to face its own fight. So Europe is grovelling.

in reply to Claire McNab

I don't think it was European expansionism per-se though. The people of the former Eastern bloc countries weren't forced to join the EU, and have prospered having done so. Yes, that's annoyed the authoritarian and dictatorial Russian leadership, but it's not something Europe should be ashamed of.
in reply to Dave Robinson

@dave I'm talking zbout military expansion, both through NATO and through an increasingly militarised EU.

Europe pushed an aggressive military alliance right up to the borders of Russia, and generated a predictably hostile response.

in reply to Claire McNab

Ah, I see. So NATO rather than the EU. Was that primarily American expansionism then?
in reply to Dave Robinson

@dave Prinarily driven by the Eastern European nations foolishly thinking that military strength was the way to protect themselves from a Russian return. Of course, that backfired, triggering old and well-founded Russian fears of encirclement and invasion.
in reply to Claire McNab

But would have happened anyway, given the paranoid tendencies that long-established dictators tend to exhibit?
in reply to Dave Robinson

@dave No, it probably wouldn't have happened anyway. There were several crucial turning points along the way. I recomnend paying a bit more attention to the Russian perspective, rather than glibly dismiss8ng it all with a cry of "dictators".

One doesn't need to have any sympathy for the ugly regimes of post-Soviet Russia to appreciate the strategic nightmares they face.

in reply to Claire McNab

@2legged @dave

To some extent, this reminds me of the discussion of the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962... which looks a lot different when one knows the US had deployed nuclear missiles in Turkey ahead of the Russian deployment in Cuba!

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

For me it is really simple, Trump cannot be trusted. As such we should be moving closer to Europe as America certainly won't step up and help.

Gaza and now the Ukraine peace plan has nothing to do with peace, simply a way for Trump and his billionaire pals to make more money.

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

How many people would want to even be associated with the lunatics now in power in the United States?

I don’t hold out any hope for politicians in the the two main parties in the bat shit lunatic right wing party..

How much longer before simply declaring the entire UK prison cell is the cheapest option for them?

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

It's always felt a bit like a one sided "special relationship". Americans liking our old buildings and Historic Stuff™️ but not doing us any favours, while we fawn over them.
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

"Trump’s defenders have sought to argue that the administration has no problem with Europe per se; it’s the European Union it can’t stand"

The irony in that statement is a metre thick. WTF is the 'United States' if not a fucking political union??? Dickheads

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

It would be much easier to fix that, when the UK is disbanded. Irish, Scots and Walisians just declare themselves as Celtic, and join with their states (hopefully republics) the coming European Federation.
We also need to crack France, Spain and Germany in some smaller units, to fit with others.
That federation needs a good constitution and I propose to have a look on the current German Grundgesetz.
in reply to wauz ワウズ

@wauz I think the idea of splitting states up or creating states based on ethnicity is really terrible, and on the pseudohistorical idea of being Celtic, an exonym, is even worse. @ChrisMayLA6
in reply to Jessie Kirk • 🏳️‍⚧️ 🇪🇺 • 🇵🇸 🇺🇦

@thejessiekirk
Well, I said: "declare". That means: putting a label on it. You're totally right, that 'identitary' ideas, whatever culture, language, "ethnicity" are to simple and, clearly said, misleading. Nobody needs to be a 'true scotsman' and nobody should be forced to be.
Though, my idea is about leaving identitarian states, the idea of a nation. As a "German", I know that pretty well. The time, Germany was nearly complete a national state, was in the time between 1938 and 1945. (I dont need to explain further).
My idea of an Eupean Federation is based on the idea, that the federate entity should be more equivalent in size and population. To leave out the idea of identity doesn't mean, that we should ignore differences. There are some in the UK, there are many in (current) Germany, there are also many in Spain and Italy. France has a tradition to suppress differences, and that caused a loss of much cultural variety.

@ChrisMayLA6

in reply to wauz ワウズ

@wauz Excuse me, but I fear this may be a straw man argument, as you are arguing for an easier to defend argument you didn't actually make (e.g. Nazi Germany was bad) rather than the "Celtic" argument you originally made. @ChrisMayLA6
in reply to Jessie Kirk • 🏳️‍⚧️ 🇪🇺 • 🇵🇸 🇺🇦

@thejessiekirk
I'm sorry for that sloppy, misleading expression. I'm aware, that in Scotland and Wales far not everybody has a celtic language as native language, or otherwise any 'identity' thing to call celtic.
The change I like to propose: more regional political participation. The UK is very London-focused, and that is in my opinion not very desirable. Even more in France.
Also, current Germany is too much Berlin-focused in my eyes. I want smaller units, bc I think, that gives democracy more chances.
I fully acknowledge the argument, not to claim false commonness. Let me say that clear: everyone who lives in Wales would be "Welsh" just bc of citizenship.

@ChrisMayLA6

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

Our political class likes to snuggle up to the biggest bully in the playground. Maybe because the UK once was the biggest bully in the playground.
in reply to Cybermatron

@TheCybermatron
Unfortunately I think it goes deeper than that. You really notice it when you live outside the UK but sometimes see UK television, etc. Try, for example, watching a popular quiz show and counting the number of questions (and correct answers) that relate to US politics, sport or culture, - and the number that relate to Continental European. US media content and advertising has penetrated down to the bones of UK life, I'm afraid.
in reply to GeofCox

@GeofCox @TheCybermatron

Yes, I would agree; and that's likely partly because the US (perhaps because of a partially shared language) seems like a directly linked culture whereas for many monoglots the continent is always seen/heard through a fog of translation....

in reply to GeofCox

@GeofCox Trust me, I know, given that I moved here 30 years ago from another country, only to find that “International news” started on page 34 of the Guardian. But the focus was also interesting. There was more about Commonwealth countries than Europe and more of US news than the rest put together. And while I appreciate the language argument, my strong sense is that it was mainly influenced by an orientation towards power - up and down.
in reply to Cybermatron

@GeofCox Languages can be learned, but the willingness to learn them is dependent on a willingness to engage with countries that speak them. That latter willingness - as Brexit has ultimately proved - has been almost entirely absent since the mid naughties. The UK lives in the delusion that if it can no longer be the one that bosses everyone around, it can at least be their second. What else is all that nonsense about the “special relationship” about?
in reply to Cybermatron

@TheCybermatron @GeofCox

Yes, I think that's a fair point about the direction of causality for the UK's rampant monoglotism