Much of the developed world is watching how the Australian under-16 social media ban is working, with critics already claiming in the UK, that Keir Starmer has a 'blindspot' on the damage social media has wrought on the young....
The key argument in the UK against following the Australian example will, as usual, be that such a ban can be (relatively easily) circumvented - see VPN usage & pornography!
But on this we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!
Quixoticgeek reshared this.
James Baillie
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •While there is a real problem here, there are other good arguments against this solution - age verification systems are a personal data issues mess, a risk I especially wouldn't want to take with the personal data of minors.
I also suspect it will lead to a proliferation of equally damaging apps targeted so as to be excluded from the ban lists.
And there's also an extent to which it's a sticking plaster on a much wider societal problem of a lack of healthy digital systems.
Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to James Baillie • • •@JubalBarca
Yes, which is why it remains difficult to decide how to move forward, but you're right it is also a sticking plaster on a larger issue.... but a sticking plaster can be a useful part of the healing process (to extend the metaphor)
Dany 🔜39C3 (☎️3269)
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Ted
in reply to Dany 🔜39C3 (☎️3269) • • •@Dany Related to that, I was thinking about the story of some students creating their own social media in a shared side deck. And I think that's ok: the big difference being the shared deck is a closed group and not driven by algorithms designed to suck you in as long as possible to see as much paid content as possible.
(A problem for adults too, but we've decided some level of self-destructive behavior is fine once we think you're old enough)
@ChrisMayLA6 @JubalBarca
James Baillie
in reply to Ted • • •The Penguin of Evil
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Nini
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Nini • • •@nini
well luckily for us, we can test that proposition by watching how the Australian ban plays out.... and then adjudge the result(s) accordingly.
Nini
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Nini • • •@nini
Its a bit different in execution, I think?
Peter Brown
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •And good luck to them!
Robert
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •a much better approach would be to co-design social media regulatory frameworks with youth representation- they have a much better idea of what’s needed, and the ban puts our most vulnerable (remote, immigrants, LGBTQIA, disabled) at even more risk.
I have thoughts on it here: rlok.notion.site/Australia-s-T…
But I’m definitely not an expert (and you should definitely listen to them over me). Unfortunately, the Aus government has chosen to ignore the experts
The AI workspace that works for you. | Notion
NotionL0wKey
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •A social media ban on children is an awful idea that is impossible to implement without dramatically reducing online safety for those same children.
You will never stop people finding ways to communicate, just drive them to less visible, less secure, and less safe ways of doing so.
Regulate the companies, not the users. Castigate billionaires, not teenagers.
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Sam Easterby-Smith
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •@quixoticgeek the key argument is not that it’s unenforceable, or unworkable… it’s that *children (and adults) have a right to communicate*
Imagine it was the 80s and righteous campaigners said that children should be banned from using telephones because they might talk to *bad people*
This is not to let anyone off the hook in terms of safety - we have a duty to educate, to moderate, to regulate. Blanket bans and age gating is all about letting platforms avoid that.
Quixoticgeek reshared this.
kit
in reply to Sam Easterby-Smith • • •@sam
In the 80s many of us were banned from comic books and RPGs (Role Playing Games, not Rocket Propelled Grenades, nobody was banning Rocket Propelled Grenades)
@ChrisMayLA6 @quixoticgeek
Sam Easterby-Smith
in reply to kit • • •@hypostase @quixoticgeek the difference being that those were individual parental decisions with varying degrees of informed choice.
This stuff is all top-down.
Sam Easterby-Smith
in reply to Sam Easterby-Smith • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Sam Easterby-Smith • • •@sam @hypostase @quixoticgeek
Which is fair enough, but how do you keep those spaces safe for them?
kit
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •How do you keep any space safe?
Schools are not safe. Churches are not safe. Scouts is not safe. The little alley back of the pub is not safe. For ever-so-many, "home" us not safe.
These are not new problems. And they have the same solutions. But we're not always as effective as we would like to believe there, either, and we need to understand that.
@sam @quixoticgeek
Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to kit • • •@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek
I agree these are certainly not new problems, but the Q. is whether the social media space presents a similar danger or a worse one? My feeling is, that it is worse in wellbeing terms (although clearer not worse than direct violence) and is often a space where previous social negatives (bullying, or grooming, for instance) have migrated to
kit
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Caveats: I'm in my late 50s, I've been terminally online, but not as much as some, the households I grew up in were not psychologically safe for me, I chose not to have children.
Social media spaces, like any other spaces, vary wildly. Yes some are more popular than others. Certainly some are more toxic. Just like some pubs. Or sports clubs.
You are mistaken to suggest that they have less direct violence, unless you conflate direct violence with physical violence, and even then it's complicated. Bullying exists everywhere, and needs to be managed through identifying the perpetrators and supporting the targets. That has to happen at the individual level because the bullies always know how to manipulate the rules.
There maybe a sense in which the social media landscape presents a worse danger than the 70s. But the second millennium generally presents a wider array of social dangers, and the online space doesn't exist in a vacuums.
The real problem is, as it has ever been, identifying and accepting the structures that harm.
It's not that we need to make
... show moreCaveats: I'm in my late 50s, I've been terminally online, but not as much as some, the households I grew up in were not psychologically safe for me, I chose not to have children.
Social media spaces, like any other spaces, vary wildly. Yes some are more popular than others. Certainly some are more toxic. Just like some pubs. Or sports clubs.
You are mistaken to suggest that they have less direct violence, unless you conflate direct violence with physical violence, and even then it's complicated. Bullying exists everywhere, and needs to be managed through identifying the perpetrators and supporting the targets. That has to happen at the individual level because the bullies always know how to manipulate the rules.
There maybe a sense in which the social media landscape presents a worse danger than the 70s. But the second millennium generally presents a wider array of social dangers, and the online space doesn't exist in a vacuums.
The real problem is, as it has ever been, identifying and accepting the structures that harm.
It's not that we need to make sure 15 year olds are not abused, it's that we need to hold all abusers to account, whether they target children or not, whether their actions are considered just the price of society, or the unfortunate cost of doing business.
Sometimes that means we need to look at ourselves, and our friends, our spouses, our bosses, and recognise that toxic behaviour.
It may be convenient to blame Social Media, but that just hides the underlying issues.
@sam @quixoticgeek
Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to kit • • •@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek
I don't disagree with much of that.... but while it may be convenient to blame social media it is neither a neutral vector in the issues you stresses.... but I would agree there is much bigger social structural set of issue here
kit
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •No, it's not neutral.
But this place, this form of social media, has very much demonstrated that it is possible to have safe, even loving, places to play and explore online. Regulation would be a heavy burden that could criminalise and destroy many of them.
@sam @quixoticgeek
Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to kit • • •@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek
So, we have the issue of the balance between regulation and freedom... and of course, that is a political Q. over which we have been ranging today...
Social media is not un-regulated now, so the issue is what regulatory weight is most appropriate to gain the ends we want.... The Austrian Govt. has taken one view, and as I say, it will be interested (and informative) to see how this plays out
kit
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •I don't think so. It's more about balance between choice and responsiblity, which can't always be regulated. The Aussie thing is such a blunt force tool that all the sides will argue about it, claiming different causal relationships and outcomes, that it will be unlikely to usefully contribute to objective analysis.
@sam @quixoticgeek
Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to kit • • •@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek
well, of course, the debate about the effects will itself be illustrative of the optical fissures involved
Paul Martin
in reply to Sam Easterby-Smith • • •#BlindAltBot
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to #BlindAltBot • • •@anantagd
Its more I think something needs to be done, and a good response is better than holding out for a perfect one - I'll reserve judgement on the Australian attempt until we see how its played out...
The Penguin of Evil
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Cassandrich
in reply to #BlindAltBot • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Cassandrich • • •@dalias @anantagd
see previous answer to this...
#BlindAltBot
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •@dalias
L0wKey
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Just to say, the harm is caused by the ‘media’ bit, not the ‘social’. Profit incentives and addictive algorithmic feeds prioritise retention of eyeballs over anything else.
Talking to others isn’t the principle issue, it’s the things around the conversation in the feed that are substantially the concern.
If children have to take the ‘social’ bit elsewhere they will. It then becomes much harder to know who they are talking to.
Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •@burnoutqueen
To my mind, the problem *is* the use of social media as if it was a neutral public space - it isn't nor will be in the current climate - sayer alternate 'spaces' are what is required.... and part of that, the Australian Govt. clearly thinks, is by encouraging young people back into the physical social networks around them....
Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •@burnoutqueen
For many (but I accept not all) children local social networks of pupils, local friends (parents friends' children) can all be accessed & enjoyed outside the realm of social media.... I see little evidence that such networks have ceased to exist completely?
Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •@burnoutqueen
That's a fair comment; I have only seen such discrimination among young people when I was work at university, and there, alternate grouping developed themselves among the groups being discriminated against, both institutionally & via peer discrimination.... but I have little recent experience of school age children apart form those of my friends - so accept that criticism
Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •@burnoutqueen
Here, as noted in repose to @etchedpixels that had passed me by... but then the Q. is how to help those specific groups, surely?
The Penguin of Evil
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •@burnoutqueen you can't separate them out magically because their friends are not disabled or necessarily rural, so are you going to create a disabled ghetto ?
You have to fix it for all teens to have a safe space to interact online.
Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to The Penguin of Evil • • •@etchedpixels @burnoutqueen
Fair enough & that would be what I would want... if it is possible; but the political will to go up against the social media giants to do that doesn't seem likely, so we're left with much less happy (but potentially OK) solutions - at least, we may; that's why I'm interested to see how the Australian ban plays out. But there are no perfect (or even near perfect) answers.... or so it seems
Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •@etchedpixels
You help those groups by promoting better platforms of online communication that bolster privacy and have guardrails against abuse and bullying
Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭ • • •The Penguin of Evil
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •banning vpns is like banning maths. It's an implicit feature of all networking so the only way you can ban it is to turn all computers into a government controlled unmodifiable device managed by a mostly US megacorp.
If you want to crack down on social media and kids then ban processing of kids data like the EU. Ban advertising to children except human pre approved adverts, ban algorithmic feeds
And remember social media is crucial to disabled and to kids in isolated places
Emeritus Prof Christopher May reshared this.
Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to The Penguin of Evil • • •Kim Spence-Jones 🇬🇧😷
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •My fist suggestion is to treat all algorithm-promoted social media posts as “publishing”, subject to the same regulation as any other media.
Glitzersachen
in reply to The Penguin of Evil • • •@etchedpixels
> If you want to crack down on social media and kids then ban processing of kids data like the EU. Ban advertising to children except human pre approved adverts, ban algorithmic feeds
And crucially: Make the (social media) corporations responsible that this works. No "this was inadvertently. We've a gazillion measure in place, unfortunately they don't always work", but simply, if any of these happen, the penalties apply, full stop.
Criminal police in Germany is actually advising parents not to use certain kid's offerings, because that is where the criminals are looking for kids. So we have a kid offering, that is actually not protected .... this wouldn't happen, if the provider would be made responsible actually policing this. Worst case: They would actually have to terminate this offering, because it doesn't work and is actually risky. Nothing lost then.
The Penguin of Evil
in reply to Glitzersachen • • •Bimbo
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Bimbo • • •@BigTittyBimbo
Well, we might want to distinguish between adults & children when you say 'people' as this is what the Australian Govt. is doing - I think we should wait to see how it plays out
Bimbo
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Bimbo • • •@BigTittyBimbo
well, again, as I keep saying we'll see how the Australian ban plays out & I'll reserve judgment as to its efficacy until then...
Bimbo
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •Emeritus Prof Christopher May
in reply to Bimbo • • •@BigTittyBimbo
evidence of the effects of an outright ban on under 16s?
Please share.... was not aware had been attempted elsewhere
Merovius
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May • • •ISTM that the VPN argument is just "it doesn't help" whereas this one is "it actively harms".