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Much of the developed world is watching how the Australian under-16 social media ban is working, with critics already claiming in the UK, that Keir Starmer has a 'blindspot' on the damage social media has wrought on the young....

The key argument in the UK against following the Australian example will, as usual, be that such a ban can be (relatively easily) circumvented - see VPN usage & pornography!

But on this we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

#politics #SocialMedia

Quixoticgeek reshared this.

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

While there is a real problem here, there are other good arguments against this solution - age verification systems are a personal data issues mess, a risk I especially wouldn't want to take with the personal data of minors.

I also suspect it will lead to a proliferation of equally damaging apps targeted so as to be excluded from the ban lists.

And there's also an extent to which it's a sticking plaster on a much wider societal problem of a lack of healthy digital systems.

in reply to James Baillie

@JubalBarca

Yes, which is why it remains difficult to decide how to move forward, but you're right it is also a sticking plaster on a larger issue.... but a sticking plaster can be a useful part of the healing process (to extend the metaphor)

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

@JubalBarca it's not so much as we need to stick a plaster: we need to cut out the tumor that is causing the damage: profit driven addictive algorithms and the people that wield those.
in reply to Dany 🔜39C3 (☎️3269)

@Dany Related to that, I was thinking about the story of some students creating their own social media in a shared side deck. And I think that's ok: the big difference being the shared deck is a closed group and not driven by algorithms designed to suck you in as long as possible to see as much paid content as possible.

(A problem for adults too, but we've decided some level of self-destructive behavior is fine once we think you're old enough)

@ChrisMayLA6 @JubalBarca

in reply to Ted

@tschundler @Dany I started running a webforum when I was 13. Bigger life decision than I realised at the time given I'm still doing it now my age is the reverse of those digits, but still - I think it was a net good thing for me in all sorts of ways.
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

Do they really think they're protecting children in this? No, kids are getting around it easily, it's not doing a thing to them while for adults it's operating more as a PII dragnet with the various companies gathering this info acting as honeypots for hackers to exfiltrate. None of this is protecting anyone and endangers far more than if these bans weren't in effect.
in reply to Nini

@nini

well luckily for us, we can test that proposition by watching how the Australian ban plays out.... and then adjudge the result(s) accordingly.

@Nini
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

frankly if there is a technical workaround, then the person most likely to find it is the teenager.
And good luck to them!
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

a much better approach would be to co-design social media regulatory frameworks with youth representation- they have a much better idea of what’s needed, and the ban puts our most vulnerable (remote, immigrants, LGBTQIA, disabled) at even more risk.

I have thoughts on it here: rlok.notion.site/Australia-s-T…

But I’m definitely not an expert (and you should definitely listen to them over me). Unfortunately, the Aus government has chosen to ignore the experts

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

A social media ban on children is an awful idea that is impossible to implement without dramatically reducing online safety for those same children.

You will never stop people finding ways to communicate, just drive them to less visible, less secure, and less safe ways of doing so.

Regulate the companies, not the users. Castigate billionaires, not teenagers.

reshared this

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

@quixoticgeek the key argument is not that it’s unenforceable, or unworkable… it’s that *children (and adults) have a right to communicate*

Imagine it was the 80s and righteous campaigners said that children should be banned from using telephones because they might talk to *bad people*

This is not to let anyone off the hook in terms of safety - we have a duty to educate, to moderate, to regulate. Blanket bans and age gating is all about letting platforms avoid that.

Quixoticgeek reshared this.

in reply to Sam Easterby-Smith

@sam
In the 80s many of us were banned from comic books and RPGs (Role Playing Games, not Rocket Propelled Grenades, nobody was banning Rocket Propelled Grenades)

@ChrisMayLA6 @quixoticgeek

in reply to kit

@hypostase @quixoticgeek the difference being that those were individual parental decisions with varying degrees of informed choice.

This stuff is all top-down.

in reply to Sam Easterby-Smith

@hypostase @quixoticgeek As a parent, I want my kids to be able to participate in their community, to message their friends. To self-organise their activities, both online and offline. I want them to have their third-spaces.
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

How do you keep any space safe?

Schools are not safe. Churches are not safe. Scouts is not safe. The little alley back of the pub is not safe. For ever-so-many, "home" us not safe.

These are not new problems. And they have the same solutions. But we're not always as effective as we would like to believe there, either, and we need to understand that.
@sam @quixoticgeek

in reply to kit

@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek

I agree these are certainly not new problems, but the Q. is whether the social media space presents a similar danger or a worse one? My feeling is, that it is worse in wellbeing terms (although clearer not worse than direct violence) and is often a space where previous social negatives (bullying, or grooming, for instance) have migrated to

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

in reply to kit

@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek

I don't disagree with much of that.... but while it may be convenient to blame social media it is neither a neutral vector in the issues you stresses.... but I would agree there is much bigger social structural set of issue here

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

No, it's not neutral.

But this place, this form of social media, has very much demonstrated that it is possible to have safe, even loving, places to play and explore online. Regulation would be a heavy burden that could criminalise and destroy many of them.

@sam @quixoticgeek

in reply to kit

@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek

So, we have the issue of the balance between regulation and freedom... and of course, that is a political Q. over which we have been ranging today...

Social media is not un-regulated now, so the issue is what regulatory weight is most appropriate to gain the ends we want.... The Austrian Govt. has taken one view, and as I say, it will be interested (and informative) to see how this plays out

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

I don't think so. It's more about balance between choice and responsiblity, which can't always be regulated. The Aussie thing is such a blunt force tool that all the sides will argue about it, claiming different causal relationships and outcomes, that it will be unlikely to usefully contribute to objective analysis.

@sam @quixoticgeek

in reply to kit

@hypostase @sam @quixoticgeek

well, of course, the debate about the effects will itself be illustrative of the optical fissures involved

in reply to #BlindAltBot

@anantagd

Its more I think something needs to be done, and a good response is better than holding out for a perfect one - I'll reserve judgement on the Australian attempt until we see how its played out...

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

@anantagd a good response might be but as anyone vaguely tech literate will tell you this is not a good one, nor is the OSA achieving anything except feeding personal documents to scammers, something we will be paying for for years in fraud even if it was stopped today
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

Just to say, the harm is caused by the ‘media’ bit, not the ‘social’. Profit incentives and addictive algorithmic feeds prioritise retention of eyeballs over anything else.

Talking to others isn’t the principle issue, it’s the things around the conversation in the feed that are substantially the concern.

If children have to take the ‘social’ bit elsewhere they will. It then becomes much harder to know who they are talking to.

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

L take. Enacting draconian restrictions on civil society and demanding that everyone doxx themselves if they are to be allowed into the town square is extremely undemocratic as a policy.
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

unless you intend to radically expand the reach of public third spaces that are freely accessible by public transportation then please don't talk about the social media problem
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

@burnoutqueen

To my mind, the problem *is* the use of social media as if it was a neutral public space - it isn't nor will be in the current climate - sayer alternate 'spaces' are what is required.... and part of that, the Australian Govt. clearly thinks, is by encouraging young people back into the physical social networks around them....

in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

@burnoutqueen

For many (but I accept not all) children local social networks of pupils, local friends (parents friends' children) can all be accessed & enjoyed outside the realm of social media.... I see little evidence that such networks have ceased to exist completely?

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

You are discounting the experiences of people who literally do not have those things because of discrimination.
in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

@burnoutqueen

That's a fair comment; I have only seen such discrimination among young people when I was work at university, and there, alternate grouping developed themselves among the groups being discriminated against, both institutionally & via peer discrimination.... but I have little recent experience of school age children apart form those of my friends - so accept that criticism

in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

also, what would you say to the LGBT kids who live in a Christian fundamentalist environment and literally *cannot find community elsewhere*
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

@burnoutqueen you can't separate them out magically because their friends are not disabled or necessarily rural, so are you going to create a disabled ghetto ?

You have to fix it for all teens to have a safe space to interact online.

in reply to The Penguin of Evil

@etchedpixels @burnoutqueen

Fair enough & that would be what I would want... if it is possible; but the political will to go up against the social media giants to do that doesn't seem likely, so we're left with much less happy (but potentially OK) solutions - at least, we may; that's why I'm interested to see how the Australian ban plays out. But there are no perfect (or even near perfect) answers.... or so it seems

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

@etchedpixels

You help those groups by promoting better platforms of online communication that bolster privacy and have guardrails against abuse and bullying

in reply to Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

I have always been sceptical of the claims for information society (I wrote a whole book exercising my scepticism in 2002), and as such have always seen it as merely an extension of the capitalism we already had.... so yes, I agree, it would be great to have publicly owned social media space (indeed one might even go as far as to say that might approach some of the views Habermas has about public space), but I see little prospect of that happening (in my remaining lifetime)
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

banning vpns is like banning maths. It's an implicit feature of all networking so the only way you can ban it is to turn all computers into a government controlled unmodifiable device managed by a mostly US megacorp.

If you want to crack down on social media and kids then ban processing of kids data like the EU. Ban advertising to children except human pre approved adverts, ban algorithmic feeds

And remember social media is crucial to disabled and to kids in isolated places

in reply to The Penguin of Evil

I think the last point here *is* important & I accept one that had (until I read your post) passed me by
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

Rather than attempting the impossible task of banning children from the Internet, why don’t we focus on getting rid of the known harms done to us all by the megacorps’ algorithms?
My fist suggestion is to treat all algorithm-promoted social media posts as “publishing”, subject to the same regulation as any other media.
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to The Penguin of Evil

@etchedpixels
> If you want to crack down on social media and kids then ban processing of kids data like the EU. Ban advertising to children except human pre approved adverts, ban algorithmic feeds

And crucially: Make the (social media) corporations responsible that this works. No "this was inadvertently. We've a gazillion measure in place, unfortunately they don't always work", but simply, if any of these happen, the penalties apply, full stop.

Criminal police in Germany is actually advising parents not to use certain kid's offerings, because that is where the criminals are looking for kids. So we have a kid offering, that is actually not protected .... this wouldn't happen, if the provider would be made responsible actually policing this. Worst case: They would actually have to terminate this offering, because it doesn't work and is actually risky. Nothing lost then.

in reply to Glitzersachen

@glitzersachen that is one of my real concerns. Anyone seeking to exploit others looks for locations where their target gathers and is unprotected. Driving kids off mainstream social media rather than regulating it simply drives them into less safe spaces.
in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

banning people from using social media instead of mandating that those places actually be moderated is only working to the benefit of large corporations who own social media and is not doing anything to reduce the harmfulness of social media to wider society.
in reply to Bimbo

@BigTittyBimbo

Well, we might want to distinguish between adults & children when you say 'people' as this is what the Australian Govt. is doing - I think we should wait to see how it plays out

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

these bans, as evidenced by the UK age restrictions, ban anyone without ID or credit card, regardless of their age. While you may see these groups as a theoretical adult/child split because the law is aimed at achieving this, the reality is that it is widespread and affects many people of all ages.
in reply to Bimbo

@BigTittyBimbo

well, again, as I keep saying we'll see how the Australian ban plays out & I'll reserve judgment as to its efficacy until then...

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

the evidence is already there to be seen, acting coy about a reality we all already experience isn't the scientific approach you may see it as.
in reply to Bimbo

@BigTittyBimbo

evidence of the effects of an outright ban on under 16s?

Please share.... was not aware had been attempted elsewhere

in reply to Emeritus Prof Christopher May

Isn't the key argument that no one has yet designed a privacy- and liberty-preserving way to do age verification?
ISTM that the VPN argument is just "it doesn't help" whereas this one is "it actively harms".