An important distinction is slowly being uncovered about the definition of the term "fediverse." Who is it that gets to decide what this place is? How are we being represented? These are not easy questions to answer and if we don't do a better job describing ourselves, then the job will get done for us by people who don't understand the underlying values we hold. #fediverse #meta #threads
Some people argue that we shouldn't define the fediverse in terms of which protocols the different platforms use, or whether they support ActivityPub specifically.
Fair enough. How about, can the fediverse have ads?
@stefan I appreciate your attempt at trying to reach some understanding. The Wikipedia page is probably the worst contender for describing the fediverse at the moment. I think its something we really really have to tackle soon.
Personally, and the way the term was used, since it was first coined, was any software with #OStatus support (later #ActivityPub).
When there were discussions of having a new name, I ran suggestion threads and polls about it, and one suggestion/choice was mycelial, mycelium. I like it so I started using it myself.
By definition: * A mycelium is a single network. * A mycelial is a collection of various mycelium.
Adopting it to #SocialWeb: * The "Fediverse" is one mycelium network.o, based on ActivityPub * "The Federation" / #diaspora* is another mycelium network. * #Matrix is a mycelium network. * #ATproto is another mycelium network. * #XMPP / #Jabber is a mycelium network.
Together, they are called Mycelial Web. A collection of "decentralised, distributed, federated, and open, network". A subset of the Social Web.
A "sister", if you will, of the Mycelial Web is IRC and e-mail, as examples.
So: I. Web A. Social Web 1. IRC 2. E-mail 3. Mycelial Web * Fediverse/ActivityPub * ATproto * diaspora * Matrix * XMPP
I've only ever seen this Threads logo in posts bashing it. It ends up giving it more exposure.
OTOH, a few weeks ago I've seen people here arguing against the top logo, coming up with roundabout reasons to complain about it because it wasn't this-or-that enough (honestly, I'm too much of a cynic to buy it). That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo".
That and the constant Mastodon and .social bashing from the inside clearly works to Meta's benefit.
also, it's a pentagram, which I'm sure people from certain cultures (the US Bible Belt?) have an innate resistance towards.
One could make a stretch and argue that the Threads logo is a _very_ stylized version of the original (dots, connections between the dots, "cloud" in the middle). I've seen wilder variation than that in font design.
If I was making an app today and needed a small fedi icon, I'd either use the original or make a small variation by removing the star + larger dots.
@hisham_hm "That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo"."
I'm not sure that would have made a difference. My guess is that the reason why they made a new one has very little to do with whether there's an established one already or not and everything to do with branding. They're gonna make an effort to have all the little icons and design elements on their site speak the same design language, because that's the "professional" way to do it.
@hisham_hm I feel like any effect the logo might have on "reshaping the perception of the fediverse" was at best a secondary concern way behind "let's pick something that aligns with our visuals". But even if not done with direct intent it's still a bit of a cautionary tale about how profit oriented actors several dimensions bigger can possibly even unintentionally warp the whole landscape for the worse simply by way of having different priorities and incentives.
@evan @Gargron seems @chrismessina was the first to discover it many months ago in the resources of the Android app quite awhile ago. I would assume we could just ask some of the Threads devs for more information, maybe @jessel or @wongmjane would be willing to share any information about where this icon comes from?
It was first uploaded, AFAIK, in Wiki Commons by Eukobos (I think it's Eudaimon too), dedicated to the #PublicDomain through #CC0 #CCzero.
It was June 2018.
No one submitted other proposals so it became the accepted logo of the #Fediverse. Variations from other users based on the same logo also came out later.
We, I and @eudaimon, independently, without knowing about each other at all, made the same logo. Mine had different chirality though, and had couple of other details like UN-esque laurel wreath (because we're federation :).
After we showed each other our results, we agreed that his version is simpler and more concise, and it will kinda be attributed to both of us.
@drq @eudaimon @evan @Gargron @chrismessina super interesting to hear some backstory! do you happen to have a link to your original version? just to keep in the vault of history
A lot of people think that the pentacle was chosen because of its occult or satanic connotations. And while it would be in Fediverse's rebellious spirit, this was not the case.
My idea was to illustrate the structure of the network. There must be multiple nodes (multiple servers). There must be nothing in the middle (no center). The connections can cross each other, but must never follow the same path twice. No connection must be on top of all of them.
It can't be done with two nodes, because it's just a line and in the middle of the line, there's line. It can be done with triangle, but it's boring. It can not be done with four nodes, because their connection cross in the middle.
So, five nodes it is. Thus, a pentacle.
Also, a pentacle is a classic symbol for a star. And I always wanted to associate the Fediverse with the stars and space in public consciousness.
What's plural of "a fedi node"? "a constellation".
@Dr. Quadragon ❌ @wakest Ha, there was also this, from The Federation era. Five minute mashup by yours truly :P The idea was to represent the chaotic nature of the #fediverse.
Federation is a term used to describe an action or state occurring over the ActivityPub (or AT) protocol. It’s neither a brand nor owned. In app design, devs use different icons to define open-menu and close-menu actions, different symbols for sending emails — envelopes and paper airplanes — and different symbols to chat widgets among other actions. Meta serves users all over the world, and in some of those places, using a pentagram as a UI convention might be offensive.
@bretcarmichael this is an incredibly rude reply. I have been working in the field of federated and open networks for many many years now and having you chime in to explain federation is quite ridiculous
I’m regret that my feedback offended you. That was not my intent. You posted your thoughts in public. I respectfully offered my own in exchange. Your response is objectively terse and disrespectful. I’ll take your resume at your word, but it’s not a rebuttal. Consider adding language to your profile that says, “I am an information authority. Disagreement is not allowed.” That will deter lesser people, like me. Grab the last word, and have a great weekend.
@bretcarmichael Dang Captain Autismo, no need to get so defensive over someone offering their thoughts. Makes you appear very insecure about that fediverse expertise of yours.
Eine wichtige Unterscheidung über die Definition des Begriffs "Fediversum" wird langsam deutlich. Wer entscheidet, was dieser Ort ist? Wie werden wir repräsentiert? Diese Fragen sind nicht leicht zu beantworten, und wenn wir es nicht schaffen, uns selbst besser zu beschreiben, dann wird diese Aufgabe von Leuten übernommen, die unsere grundlegenden Werte nicht verstehen. #fediversum #meta #threads
"Steigen" große Medienkanäle ins #Fediverse "ein", bilden sie Instanzen, kann das zu strukturellen Verschiebungen führen. Dem Schema Sender und Empfänger folgen viele (wer?) theoretisch und denken Kommunikation wie Kodierung und Dekodierung. Produktionsmittel bleiben, die #Sender im Blick und die Warenpusher Influencer im Nacken, ungleich sortiert.
The second symbol would be much better for Open fediverse. It shows connections, has a O in its center that can be understood as a world and it is also minimalist. You can tell they paid someone who knows how to do his job.
The first icon isn't bad, but it is generic. It isn't as simple, nothing suggest that it is open, a world or universe. It could work as an Internet of things logo o anything else that is connected.
It's a great design. Meta sucks, but there isn't anything bad in this symbol. It doesn't convey a dangerous message and it's better for smaller screens.
I don't understand why the fediverse or Mastodon, etc have Logos. There is no official E-Mail Logo, FTP, etc. It should just get a boring name like "Social Network". Thrn you just ask people "what's your social network tag?" and they say "it's @cooldude on X". Then you can just reply, Oh that's not a social network tag, that's not even connected to the social network standard.
@EcoLogicExplorer I think people are used to seeing an envelope next to an email address.
Not saying that makes it a "logo", but it sort of functions as one, and is useful in some contexts, like quickly scanning a page to find contact information.
The Fediverse is an open network. Period. If a site like Threads or BlueSky offers a closed version of that network, it's not the Fediverse, it's just a walled garden.
The corporate logo here doesn't depict what it is in the way that the actual logo does.
if corporations run the fediverse then it will be just another corporate social media platform.
corporations dont coexist with communities- they exploit them as resources.
first theyll get enough people using the corporate side, increase barriers between the corporate side and demand compliance with THEM, theyll separate, using fedi only to get more people.
fedi will suffer from decrease in use and funding. thats what corporate "fedi" guarantees.
and i dont disagree with those obvious facts, this is where things will go if left unchecked.
flipboard ive always ignored, incidentally. i didnt know it was even significant. medium, as a platform, is absolutely trash. ive watched it go from good to- it demonstrates my point. and threads in particular, is the worst for fedi because of its size, owner and similiarity to fedi and/or pixelfed.
i can think of more examples that are NOT federated, but similar in purpose, tactic & outcome.
@LGS there are a few ways to answer this question. First we might start by defining the terms.
1. By standalone website I assume you mean a "static" website? A static website consists of an .html file and optionally a .css file and maybe some images stored on a server that is accessible through the https protocol. This is a "one way" medium. One person has the ability to change the .html document and then everyone else has the ability to read the document in a web browser.
@LGS You could say that the main difference a fediverse instance has from a static website is interaction between two or more peers. Some way to signal between one website and another website that "something" has happened.
2. If you are asking me if I think its morally ethical to sell something that is being used by others without their consent I would say certainly not.
seeing the Meta one in the context of an indicator coming from an instance-local POV instead of the grand overview POV of the commonly used one is making more sense to me now, so I tried to reconcile the two of them to see how it would work, but I am not very good at that as you can see from the results :)
@soop it instantly has more reach then everything that we do cause of instragram and facebook's size. so no I think we shouldn't dare underestimate the impact that an icon such as this in their interface might have
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •I don't really have an answer, but it's certainly interesting to see other people's responses:
stefanbohacek.online/@stefan/1…
stefanbohacek.online/@stefan/1…
Stefan Bohacek
2024-02-25 18:23:54
Torsten likes this.
wakest ⁂
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Yohan Yukiya Sese Cuneta 사요한🦣
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Personally, and the way the term was used, since it was first coined, was any software with #OStatus support (later #ActivityPub).
When there were discussions of having a new name, I ran suggestion threads and polls about it, and one suggestion/choice was mycelial, mycelium. I like it so I started using it myself.
By definition:
* A mycelium is a single network.
* A mycelial is a collection of various mycelium.
Adopting it to #SocialWeb:
* The "Fediverse" is one mycelium network.o, based on ActivityPub
* "The Federation" / #diaspora* is another mycelium network.
* #Matrix is a mycelium network.
* #ATproto is another mycelium network.
* #XMPP / #Jabber is a mycelium network.
Together, they are called Mycelial Web. A collection of "decentralised, distributed, federated, and open, network". A subset of the Social Web.
A "sister", if you will, of the Mycelial Web is IRC and e-mail, as examples.
So:
I. Web
A. Social Web
1. IRC
2. E-mail
3. Mycelial Web
* Fediverse/ActivityPub
* ATproto
* diaspora
* Matrix
* XMPP
.
wakest ⁂ reshared this.
Hisham
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •I've only ever seen this Threads logo in posts bashing it. It ends up giving it more exposure.
OTOH, a few weeks ago I've seen people here arguing against the top logo, coming up with roundabout reasons to complain about it because it wasn't this-or-that enough (honestly, I'm too much of a cynic to buy it). That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo".
That and the constant Mastodon and .social bashing from the inside clearly works to Meta's benefit.
wakest ⁂
in reply to Hisham • • •Hisham
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •also, it's a pentagram, which I'm sure people from certain cultures (the US Bible Belt?) have an innate resistance towards.
One could make a stretch and argue that the Threads logo is a _very_ stylized version of the original (dots, connections between the dots, "cloud" in the middle). I've seen wilder variation than that in font design.
If I was making an app today and needed a small fedi icon, I'd either use the original or make a small variation by removing the star + larger dots.
fr0g
in reply to Hisham • • •@hisham_hm
"That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo"."
I'm not sure that would have made a difference. My guess is that the reason why they made a new one has very little to do with whether there's an established one already or not and everything to do with branding. They're gonna make an effort to have all the little icons and design elements on their site speak the same design language, because that's the "professional" way to do it.
fr0g
in reply to fr0g • • •I feel like any effect the logo might have on "reshaping the perception of the fediverse" was at best a secondary concern way behind "let's pick something that aligns with our visuals".
But even if not done with direct intent it's still a bit of a cautionary tale about how profit oriented actors several dimensions bigger can possibly even unintentionally warp the whole landscape for the worse simply by way of having different priorities and incentives.
Eugen Rochko
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂ reshared this.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Yohan Yukiya Sese Cuneta 사요한🦣
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •@evan @Gargron @chrismessina @eudaimon @youronlyone Yep, it was him.
It was first uploaded, AFAIK, in Wiki Commons by Eukobos (I think it's Eudaimon too), dedicated to the #PublicDomain through #CC0 #CCzero.
It was June 2018.
No one submitted other proposals so it became the accepted logo of the #Fediverse. Variations from other users based on the same logo also came out later.
See: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fil…
#History
File:Fediverse logo proposal.svg - Wikimedia Commons
commons.wikimedia.orgDr. Quadragon ❌
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •That another person is me.
@evan @Gargron @chrismessina @eudaimon @youronlyone
wakest ⁂
in reply to Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •Dr. Quadragon ❌
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Funny enough, it was a multiple invention.
We, I and @eudaimon, independently, without knowing about each other at all, made the same logo. Mine had different chirality though, and had couple of other details like UN-esque laurel wreath (because we're federation :).
After we showed each other our results, we agreed that his version is simpler and more concise, and it will kinda be attributed to both of us.
@evan @Gargron @chrismessina
wakest ⁂
in reply to Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •Dr. Quadragon ❌
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •I have it on me, somewhere. Wait, I'll try to find it.
@eudaimon @evan @Gargron @chrismessina
Dr. Quadragon ❌
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •There it is.
files.equivalent.me/s/7fGNPa97…
@eudaimon @evan @Gargron @chrismessina
p1.svg
Nextcloudwakest ⁂
in reply to Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •Dr. Quadragon ❌
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •There's more backstory to it.
@eudaimon
Dr. Quadragon ❌
in reply to Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •A lot of people think that the pentacle was chosen because of its occult or satanic connotations. And while it would be in Fediverse's rebellious spirit, this was not the case.
My idea was to illustrate the structure of the network. There must be multiple nodes (multiple servers). There must be nothing in the middle (no center). The connections can cross each other, but must never follow the same path twice. No connection must be on top of all of them.
It can't be done with two nodes, because it's just a line and in the middle of the line, there's line. It can be done with triangle, but it's boring. It can not be done with four nodes, because their connection cross in the middle.
So, five nodes it is. Thus, a pentacle.
Also, a pentacle is a classic symbol for a star. And I always wanted to associate the Fediverse with the stars and space in public consciousness.
What's plural of "a fedi node"? "a constellation".
@eudaimon
Jason Robinson 🐍🍻
in reply to Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •Laurens Hof
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Bret Carmichael
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to Bret Carmichael • • •Bret Carmichael
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Andrew
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to Andrew • • •Andrew
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •ophiocephalic 🐍
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Erik Uden 🍑
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Matze Schmidt
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •-> masto.ai/@matzeschmidt/1121402…
Matze Schmidt
2024-03-22 16:29:45
Jon
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to Jon • • •Jon
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to Jon • • •Resolviendo la incógnita 🌐
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •The second symbol would be much better for Open fediverse. It shows connections, has a O in its center that can be understood as a world and it is also minimalist. You can tell they paid someone who knows how to do his job.
The first icon isn't bad, but it is generic. It isn't as simple, nothing suggest that it is open, a world or universe. It could work as an Internet of things logo o anything else that is connected.
wakest ⁂
in reply to Resolviendo la incógnita 🌐 • • •Resolviendo la incógnita 🌐
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Stefan
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •It should just get a boring name like "Social Network". Thrn you just ask people "what's your social network tag?" and they say "it's @cooldude on X". Then you can just reply, Oh that's not a social network tag, that's not even connected to the social network standard.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Stefan • • •@EcoLogicExplorer I think people are used to seeing an envelope next to an email address.
Not saying that makes it a "logo", but it sort of functions as one, and is useful in some contexts, like quickly scanning a page to find contact information.
sɹɐʎA xɘlA 💻➡🗑
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Unknown parent • • •gettie ( arc)
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Raccoon
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •The Fediverse is an open network. Period. If a site like Threads or BlueSky offers a closed version of that network, it's not the Fediverse, it's just a walled garden.
The corporate logo here doesn't depict what it is in the way that the actual logo does.
trdebunked
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •there is no corporate fediverse.
if corporations run the fediverse then it will be just another corporate social media platform.
corporations dont coexist with communities- they exploit them as resources.
first theyll get enough people using the corporate side, increase barriers between the corporate side and demand compliance with THEM, theyll separate, using fedi only to get more people.
fedi will suffer from decrease in use and funding. thats what corporate "fedi" guarantees.
wakest ⁂
in reply to trdebunked • • •trdebunked
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •and i dont disagree with those obvious facts, this is where things will go if left unchecked.
flipboard ive always ignored, incidentally. i didnt know it was even significant. medium, as a platform, is absolutely trash. ive watched it go from good to- it demonstrates my point. and threads in particular, is the worst for fedi because of its size, owner and similiarity to fedi and/or pixelfed.
i can think of more examples that are NOT federated, but similar in purpose, tactic & outcome.
Ted
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •While I know this is a sensitive topic I've been considering some questions that may be relevant.
I really don't have answers so... here it goes.
1. How is the Fediverse significantly different that just a standalone website? You pay for a server either way and you choose who you link to.
2. If someone developed a very popular instance and then sells it to a for profit organization that is doing "good" ... is that bad?
Sincerely,
- Lost in the Fediverse
wakest ⁂
in reply to Ted • • •@LGS there are a few ways to answer this question. First we might start by defining the terms.
1. By standalone website I assume you mean a "static" website?
A static website consists of an .html file and optionally a .css file and maybe some images stored on a server that is accessible through the https protocol. This is a "one way" medium. One person has the ability to change the .html document and then everyone else has the ability to read the document in a web browser.
wakest ⁂
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •@LGS
You could say that the main difference a fediverse instance has from a static website is interaction between two or more peers. Some way to signal between one website and another website that "something" has happened.
2. If you are asking me if I think its morally ethical to sell something that is being used by others without their consent I would say certainly not.
c-x-b
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •in black:
in white:
Forth Co-Processor
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Now can you make one crossed out with a big X?
wakest ⁂
in reply to Forth Co-Processor • • •DeeAnn Little
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to DeeAnn Little • • •DeeAnn Little
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • • pooSrepyH
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to pooSrepyH • • • pooSrepyH
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •maybe this icon will become irrelevant once they actually finish implementing activitypub
afaik rn it's used to indicate the count of fedi interactions on a post which aren't yet integrated properly
wakest ⁂
in reply to pooSrepyH • • • pooSrepyH
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •