How Lemmy could interop with Mastodon, as imagined in Frontpage + Bluesky
Hey 👋 if you don't know us already, we're building Frontpage; an AT Procol based federated link aggregator. We shipped an initial MVP in closed beta recently and have since been thinking about the road to general availability.This post is an RFC (Request for Comments) targeted at technically minded folks who are interested in seeing the progression of atproto for non-Bluesky/microblogging use cases. All that's to say the language that follows assumes some knowledge about how Bluesky and atproto work! I've tried to include links to explain what all of the jargon means though, so hopefully it's not entirely nonsense for folks a little less familiar!
When you post on Frontpage, we propose that a mirror post will also be created in your Bluesky account. When you comment on Frontpage, we propose that a mirror reply will be created in your Bluesky account.
Conversely, when you reply to one of these mirrored posts in Bluesky - we will show it as a reply in Frontpage.
Additionally, Bluesky likes will be translated to Frontpage votes and vice versa.
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noodlejetski :verified_gay:
in reply to erlend_sh • • •Blaze
in reply to erlend_sh • • •Reminder that as of now, there is no independent Bluesky server open for registration: feddit.org/post/2656676
The interoperability issues between Mastodon and Lemmy come from Mastodon, which doesn't really seem interested in correcting that: github.com/mastodon/mastodon/i…
Nate
in reply to erlend_sh • •Cool to see things being built with AT. For what my thoughts are worth, I think that having Frontpage posts showing up on Bluesky would be benificial. It'd probably make it feel like it has a lower barrier to entry and increase interactions/discussions across the different communities.
P.S. replying here with Friendica which is taking advantage of similar cross compatibility.
Also, just a curiosity, how good is AT's cross compatibility without workarounds? Obviously if you guys are considering I assume it works, but I've been curious how well things play together. Nostr has NIPs to solve the issue, and ActivityPub is a little tempermental, but with AT's repo style accounts I've wondered how well everything interacts across different implementations.
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aasatru
in reply to Nate • • •If I understand correctly, there's a central pump running behind the scenes in any AT implementation. You feed content into the central hub, and it pumps it out to everyone connected to it. Bluesky itself provides the one major pump that feeds its network right now.
So in that sense, Bluesky is a centralised network with decentralized users.
Frontpage is building a different pump, spreading different kind of content to a different type of platform. So there's no obvious connection between the Bluesky pump and the Frontpage pump - that's why they're talking about bridging in the post.
It almost seems a bit silly - in order for two AT hubs to talk, you need to build a bridge for them. At that point, you could might as well have built an AP protocol and made it work with Bridgy.fed.
Furthermore, all "instances" running Frontpage would process data through the same central hub. If that goes down or they run out of funding, it's all over.
I'm applauding the Frontpage crowd for trying something new. But I'm not entirely convinced I see the benefit compared to what we're doing over here.
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Die4Ever
in reply to erlend_sh • • •Unpopular opinion: IDK why people want perfect interop so much, I have a Mastodon account and a Lemmy account, big deal. We've got bigger fish to fry than this. The formats are different enough that you're better off having separate accounts for microblogging and threadiverse.
Interop for similar platforms is a great feature, but for dissimilar platforms I don't think it's actually necessary just a novelty. Also I think people try to push this on new users as some big, useful, important feature, but I think it only confuses the new users.
Also I noticed most of the time when people complain about ActivityPub interop issues, it almost always ends up being Mastodon's fault lol. Probably because they were early to the party and didn't have to worry about interop and standards much back then. At least I hope it isn't malicious lol.
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mark
in reply to Die4Ever • • •Don't think this opinion is unpopular at all. It makes sense for platforms that are similar to interop.
Hypothetically like Youtube interop with Peertube (video platforms) or Instagram interop with Pixelfed (photos). Or Threads, Reddit and Lemmy (forums). And Mastodon and Twitter (sorry, but just making a point here 😁)
But yeah, see no reason for interop between platforms with completely different purposes.
Die4Ever
in reply to mark • • •Mathieu :mastodon:
in reply to mark • • •example: im a mastodon user and I follow this topic bc i find it interesting
and i would never create a lemmy account to see your comments, i like having every post (from mastodon, lemmy, peertube, threads, pixelfed) in one single place
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mark
in reply to Mathieu :mastodon: • • •That sort of aggregating would make more sense in an RSS reader. RSS feeds are exactly for that purpose.
But a platform trying to interop from an infinite number of unrelated platforms just seems odd.
Mathieu :mastodon:
in reply to mark • • •you can't reply, share or even like a post with a rss reader, I believe one of actititypub goals is to replace rss
personally, I follow an important amount of users and then class them into mastodon lists (tech, politics, movies, news...)
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mark
in reply to Mathieu :mastodon: • • •You can reply and interact on platforms from an RSS reader. All an RSS feed is is a list of links. When you click them, you go directly to the platform. When using on a mobile device, RSS readers will even open the app for you to reply or interact with posts.
The fediverse will never replace RSS feeds. They serve a totally different purpose.
Blaze
in reply to Mathieu :mastodon: • • •Have you tried fedia.io/ ? It has both Mastodon and Lemmy included in one place
aasatru
in reply to Blaze • • •I think in some ways Mastodon is better suited - if you use the list feature actively there, it gets quite powerful. And personally I quite like the way content gets community curated on Mastodon once you follow enough people.
I love Mbin, but scratches a very different itch. :)
Chris
in reply to erlend_sh • • •Mastodon can already boost Lemmy posts.
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aasatru
in reply to Chris • • •I think support for boosts is a game changer for interoperability. As a Mastodon user I wouldn't really want to follow a community even if it was well implemented, but I'm happy to follow users who boost content I'm interested in.
Boosting content is the way posts spread on Mastodon. If anyone follows me from Mastodon they will see all the content I boost; if they enjoy it, they might re-boost to their followers and the ball starts rolling. And that's how you suddenly get comment sections where Mastodon users are actively participating.
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Karu 🐲
in reply to erlend_sh • • •Conceptually, I think the way Lemmy and Mastodon would be able to interop is pretty straightforward: Each thread in either is basically just a tree of replies. They are just shown differently depending on the platform. Furthermore, Lemmy communities show up as Mastodon groups, and Lemmy threads show up as retoots from those groups, which I think is the most elegant solution.
The only issue that makes this interoperation unusable really is that Mastodon groups representing Lemmy communities just "retoot" every single comment, obliterating the TL of anyone who dares to follow those groups. Which as far as I know only happens because Mastodon refuses to be cooperative and properly follow the standards.
As for the other comments asking "why even care about this": I think it's worth as a long-term goal for the Fediverse to entirely separate the "view" aspect from the "content" aspect of platforms where reasonably possible, so that each user can browse all the content in their preferred platform. Not all fedi platforms need to conform to some absolute feature parity, but as
... show moreConceptually, I think the way Lemmy and Mastodon would be able to interop is pretty straightforward: Each thread in either is basically just a tree of replies. They are just shown differently depending on the platform. Furthermore, Lemmy communities show up as Mastodon groups, and Lemmy threads show up as retoots from those groups, which I think is the most elegant solution.
The only issue that makes this interoperation unusable really is that Mastodon groups representing Lemmy communities just "retoot" every single comment, obliterating the TL of anyone who dares to follow those groups. Which as far as I know only happens because Mastodon refuses to be cooperative and properly follow the standards.
As for the other comments asking "why even care about this": I think it's worth as a long-term goal for the Fediverse to entirely separate the "view" aspect from the "content" aspect of platforms where reasonably possible, so that each user can browse all the content in their preferred platform. Not all fedi platforms need to conform to some absolute feature parity, but as I just said, there's basically a one-to-one relationship between Lemmy and Mastodon content, so it is reasonable in this case. I've seen enough people here claim that they very much prefer the Lemmy format to read conversations.
Personally, my Mastodon account has different vibes from Lemmy, and for that reason alone there is a bunch of Lemmy communities I wouldn't subscribe to, but would follow from Mastodon. The only reason why I don't do that is because Mastodon's side of the interop fucking sucks.
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Ademir
in reply to Karu 🐲 • • •Pleroma/Akkoma deal better with this, The groups there only retoot the main topic, and the answers you only see If you open the main topic, then you see all the threads.
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Blaze
in reply to Ademir • • •like this
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FundMECFSResearch
in reply to erlend_sh • • •like this
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Blaze
in reply to FundMECFSResearch • • •Even on Mbin, the microblogging and link aggregator are two different parts of the software.
If someone from Mastodon posts to an Mbin magazine, it would still look "out of the place" the same way it would in a Lemmy community
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FundMECFSResearch
in reply to Blaze • • •Blaze
in reply to FundMECFSResearch • • •The homepage contains the communities (e.g. Lemmy): fedia.io/
The microblog page contains the... microblogs (e.g. Mastodon): fedia.io/microblog
That's why I said it's two different views, you can't have everything at the same time, it's one or the other
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Fitik
in reply to Blaze • • •@Blaze@feddit.org I just want to note that it's a feature request on GitHub right now, it was already implemented on KBin (even tho in a bit weird way), so it's definitely possible
github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/issues…
@erlend_sh@lemmy.world @FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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Blaze
in reply to Fitik • • •erlend_sh
in reply to erlend_sh • • •One thing that seems to go unappreciated in the comments is the simplicity of this interop proposal: It is essentially about enabling quote-posting of link-aggregator(Groups) posts.
Bluesky + Frontpage will work this way, and I believe it’ll work exceedingly well. If the ap-net corner of the fediverse isn’t interested in this kind of interop, fair enough. To me however the promise of seamless interop between my social apps was what brought me to the fediverse, so that’s the version of the fediverse I will pursue.
Blaze
in reply to erlend_sh • • •That's fair.
For some other people the appeal of the Fediverse is to be able to manage the instances themselves, and Bluesky still isn't there yet on that side (and probably won't, as it would prevent them from generating revenue if someone can just open a server and connect to their network)
timconspicuous
in reply to Blaze • • •I don't think that's necessarily true. As fas as I know there are no plans to inject ads, they are planning to create a marketplace for custom feeds (think "premium" feeds) and labelers and such where they would take a cut. You would obviously still be able to purchase access to them from other servers. But this goal seems kinda lofty, not sure if it can be viable.
Tywèle [she|her]
in reply to erlend_sh • • •Asudox
in reply to Tywèle [she|her] • • •Tywèle [she|her]
in reply to Asudox • • •Asudox
in reply to Tywèle [she|her] • • •Blaze
in reply to Asudox • • •Seems quite relevant indeed.
To the stance above: if people prefer to have a unified experience managed by a corporation, that's okay.
There are enough people on the Internet to keep a few places actives. The Fediverse and Blueskey can coexist.
Tywèle [she|her]
in reply to Blaze • • •Yes and that's why I don't understand their comment and even less why it gets downvoted. They seem to complain about something to me that I didn't even mention and the topic was not about combining ATProto with ActivityPub or whatever.
Maybe relate wasn't the right word. English isn't my native language.
Blaze
in reply to Tywèle [she|her] • • •Reading the thread again, I guess it comes from
Followed by
Some people might have understood it as "The Fediverse failed, Bluesky is better". As I said, to me it's okay to prefer one or the other, but some people are less tolerant.
Tywèle [she|her]
in reply to Asudox • • •Asudox
in reply to Tywèle [she|her] • • •Tywèle [she|her]
in reply to Asudox • • •Asudox
in reply to Tywèle [she|her] • • •That is directed at you, but is not a complaint.
The rest is my own rant at the devs, not directed at you.
Tywèle [she|her]
in reply to Asudox • • •helenslunch
in reply to erlend_sh • • •aasatru
in reply to helenslunch • • •Though luck, they are interpretations already and have been doing it since the beginning.
The first comment I ever made to a Lemmy community was via Mastodon - that's how I found out about Lemmy in the first place.
aaaaace
in reply to erlend_sh • • •Tried Masto and Pixelfed, left after The Great Sellout to Meta. Trying Lemmy for now but it's limited in breadth and scope.
I'd like to see a fedi digest app more than anything, gathers it all up and presents it. Then if I want to interact I can sign up for one of them. But first I want to see where things are.
In general, the technically-discerning aren't going to care as much about quantity, more about quality and features.
I'd like to block every wealthy narcissist and never read their name or see their troubled insane faces in posts, I'm fed up with the narrative on both sides and have other interests.
So if Frontpage gathered it all up and filtered out the paid narratives and shills I get to choose, while letting me follow interesting minds, I'd be very interested.
If it had a prominent link to which instance, it might become clear what instance and software is best for me.
Right now I like Piefed's ability to filter and not Lemmys militaristic intentional inability to do so.
Masto filtered, but doesn't migrate well and now federates
... show moreTried Masto and Pixelfed, left after The Great Sellout to Meta. Trying Lemmy for now but it's limited in breadth and scope.
I'd like to see a fedi digest app more than anything, gathers it all up and presents it. Then if I want to interact I can sign up for one of them. But first I want to see where things are.
In general, the technically-discerning aren't going to care as much about quantity, more about quality and features.
I'd like to block every wealthy narcissist and never read their name or see their troubled insane faces in posts, I'm fed up with the narrative on both sides and have other interests.
So if Frontpage gathered it all up and filtered out the paid narratives and shills I get to choose, while letting me follow interesting minds, I'd be very interested.
If it had a prominent link to which instance, it might become clear what instance and software is best for me.
Right now I like Piefed's ability to filter and not Lemmys militaristic intentional inability to do so.
Masto filtered, but doesn't migrate well and now federates with the shitasses on Meta, which I don't want to consort with or support. If I want to sign up for Meta it's not hard, but I haven't ever done so and don't need coercive help from fake empaths running .social instances. I'm not a farm animal, Stux.
I think the fedi got it backwards, new users need to browse first to find what they want. I get it as a techie kind, but right now it's forbidding to many with all the unknown choices.
If Frontpage, someday, can also interpolate comments and vote between the softwares that survive, that'd be a nice thing to add to a browser that's already familiar to new users.
But I think it's way early for that. Kbin is already in the past, Mbin may or may not be a true continuation, the Meta connection nay not be worthwhile for their investors, bluesky is still a pig-in-a-poke for me.
One thing that is missing, again, is a digest to browse.
Handles
in reply to aaaaace • • •Is this Great Sellout in the room with us right now? Because Meta did implement an open protocol into Threads, but it has been widely blocked by other ActivityPub instances. That is not a "sellout".
Sounds like your principles will only lead you off social media, perhaps the internet entirely?
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aaaaace
in reply to Handles • • •The 2 largest mastodon instances both misrepresented involvement or intent with Meta to their users, then turned around and federated.
Those were/are the best chance for the fedi to leap forward.
They are the most popular and also now the keast likely to be used by tech people, both because if the association and because they misled their users.
The admins of those, one of which is the masto dev, have arguably done more harm to the fedi than anyone else. People left for bluesky right after the bragconfession and openly posted about why.
So it's not in the room with me, because I dropped their scene and closed all my accounts.
It takes a moral village idiot to compromise the whole environment just to grab some cash for their subsequent honeymoon. Not unlike current Twitter management thinking, and not unlike social media thought-levels in general.