Do you think the mostly limited range of political views is a *strength* or a *weakness* of Lemmy? (For example, in terms of attracting new users.)
Sure, there are always outliers and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's just the overall impression I have.
(I wasn't sure if !asklemmy@lemmy.world or this community would fit better for this kind of question, but I assume it fits here.)
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solrize
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •fxomt
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Mostly mixed. The way i think it's a weakness is because I'm an anti authoritarian leftist, and i'd like a stronger anarchist/libertarian community on lemmy. Despite hexbear/lemmygrad/lemmy thriving, Solarpunk and dbzer0 feel a little lacking community wise. I'd also like a diverse political community, in general.
Another con is that if you even just disagree with a [bastard] moderator, they'll immediately ban you. Happens on lemmy.world with being anti-zionist, happens on lemmy.ml under the guise of 'rule 1' for literally just criticizing a mod such as dessalines.
But i also think it's a pro due to the lack of far-right content on lemmy. I remember on reddit casually seeing disgusting content, such as blatant racism (Such as arabs being called sand n-rs, Or racism against asians/immigrants in general on r/canada + r/europe) and most of that is obscure on lemmy.
I'm not denying that the Lemmy community doesn't have problems, Lord no. But it's much better than most other platforms.
ramsorge
in reply to fxomt • • •like this
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fxomt
in reply to ramsorge • • •like this
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ramsorge
in reply to fxomt • • •like this
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fxomt
in reply to ramsorge • • •like this
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catloaf
in reply to ramsorge • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to fxomt • • •The type of anarchism that says, "You must agree with my anarchism, and if you have some incorrect view, I'll use my powers to remove you from the space" is not actually anarchism. It's actually strikingly reminiscent of how the Russian implementation of communism had nothing to do with worker-led socialism that it was branded as. They implemented freedom by declaring themselves the arbiters of what were the allowed types of freedom and ruthlessly repressing anything else, which isn't how it works.
In general, I think it's a myth that if you disagree with liberal orthodoxy on lemmy.world, you'll be banned. Plenty of people on lemmy.world constantly criticize the liberal orthodoxy and it's fine. The people purporting the myth are either:
- Being flaming cocks and then claiming they were banned for their factual beliefs when they get banned, when that wasn't the issue
- Or else trying to make themselves feel better about the censorship of liberals that happens on their own instances, by claiming lemmy.world is doing the same to their "side" when they aren't.
... show moreThe type of anarchism that says, "You must agree with my anarchism, and if you have some incorrect view, I'll use my powers to remove you from the space" is not actually anarchism. It's actually strikingly reminiscent of how the Russian implementation of communism had nothing to do with worker-led socialism that it was branded as. They implemented freedom by declaring themselves the arbiters of what were the allowed types of freedom and ruthlessly repressing anything else, which isn't how it works.
In general, I think it's a myth that if you disagree with liberal orthodoxy on lemmy.world, you'll be banned. Plenty of people on lemmy.world constantly criticize the liberal orthodoxy and it's fine. The people purporting the myth are either:
The occasional whining about how unfair it is that you can't post anti-Israel stories on lemmy.world, for example, is nothing to do with reality, but is instead a disguised yearning for a space where you can't post pro-Israel stories, and the mods will enforce that political viewpoint using their powers so the speaker can feel comfortable because all they see is things that they already agree with.
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fxomt
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •I've skimmed the lemmy.world modlog, and it seems you seem to be right. That was a bad example.
But my point was moreso on the stubbornness of mods. For example, if i suggest that China is bad on lemmy.ml, that'll get me a ban under the guise of "rule 1". Why? it's not against the rules, it's not bigoted or racist.
If i write controversial, or even bigoted comments, then that's another story. I was criticizing power tripping mods that ban users if they personally disagree with them, instead of actually break the rules
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PhilipTheBucket
in reply to fxomt • • •OpenStars
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to OpenStars • • •I absolutely think that's the idea, yes.
The world is a complicated place. Part of the optimization our brain does, to even be able to make sense of it at all without being overwhelmed, is to absorb things that you see other people saying to each other, and incorporate them into how you see the world. So I'm always interested when I see a variety of people all saying the same thing, even though that thing is demonstrably not true if you think for yourself for a few seconds.
In this case I think it's just some kind of internal cope that they're doing for themselves, and the repetition leading to other people potentially absorbing it is purely accidental, but it's still a dangerous pattern.
OpenStars
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •I tend to love reading your comments - they are insightful and deep:-).
When people behave identically as a "bot" would - passing along what it has heard, without thinking twice or even so much as once about it - they can act as part of that same, dark anti-pattern. Except the danger is so much more real then b/c they "genuinely" hold their belief?
I thought that a lot of it was due to enshittification reasons to maximize profit incentive, e.g. making it hard to "search" on Reddit, yet exceedingly easy to "post", while at the same time making it harder to read the community rules prior to doing so, all to maximize "engagement". But it seems more related to human nature, which will never change.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to OpenStars • • •OpenStars
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •doingthestuff
in reply to fxomt • • •like this
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nickwitha_k (he/him)
in reply to doingthestuff • • •I disagree with the conservatives part. Their ideology does not deserve a place at the adults' table. It is far too bent on undermining democracy, equity, and egalitarian society.
EDIT: To clarify, this is elementary "Paradox of Tolerance". Those that wish to undermine democracy in an equitable society cannot be tolerated without making an end to democracy inevitable. Not all opinions are created equal. For example: "I think trans people should receive additional state-funded support." and "I think that trans people should be murdered and/or the state should cultivate an environment amplifying their likelihood to commit suicide." (the prevailing view expressed by the far-right through their actions and legislation) are opinions that should not be given equal treatment.
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fxomt
in reply to nickwitha_k (he/him) • • •like this
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doingthestuff
in reply to nickwitha_k (he/him) • • •nickwitha_k (he/him)
in reply to doingthestuff • • •doingthestuff
in reply to nickwitha_k (he/him) • • •nickwitha_k (he/him)
in reply to doingthestuff • • •Nightwatch Admin
in reply to fxomt • • •like this
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fxomt
in reply to Nightwatch Admin • • •WatDabney
in reply to fxomt • • •That's one thing that I've been both disappointed and surprised to not see.
The anarchist community on Reddit is fairly large, but not very anarchist. There's a very strong authoritarian bent to their claimed anarchism. I had hopes that the nature of this place would invite a community that was anarchist not only in name but in spirit, but I've seen surprisingly little sign of that, or even really of anarchism at all.
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fxomt
in reply to WatDabney • • •like this
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PhilipTheBucket
in reply to WatDabney • • •db0 is real anarchists, as far as I can tell. Because they are not overbearing about it, it's harder to be aware of them.
I think by definition, it's easier to be aware of the "official" self-identified anarchist communities than the ones that are just doing their own thing.
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WatDabney
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •I assumed that they were at least anarchism-adjacent - it's pretty much a prerequisite for the bulk of their focus.
I hadn't really looked into their political posting much though, and yeah - even with just a cursory glance, it's promising.
And I hadn't thought about that distinction between people who simply hold a position and people who "officially" wear the label in the context of anarchism (though I've noted it often with atheists), but yeah, there's undoubtedly some truth there.
Thanks for the heads-up.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to WatDabney • • •The slrpnk admins, as far as I can tell, stand in the same relationship to anarchism that your average megachurch organization does with Christianity.
If all you look at is the words, it looks like they're supporting it.
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db0
in reply to WatDabney • • •like this
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flamingo_pinyata
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Weakness, definitely. The range of "permitted" ideas is way too narrow.
I tend to agree with most common political stances on Lemmy, but still I feel I'm self-censoring occasionally.
Many instances intentionally want an echo chamber. Posts and comments are often deleted even if they're not abusive, if they are ideologically opposed.
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ramsorge
in reply to flamingo_pinyata • • •like this
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fxomt
in reply to flamingo_pinyata • • •The problem doesn't seem to be that instances want to cater to a unique political group (that's why we have federation) It's that most instances cater to the same or similar groups. I think in general it's better that instances are differentiated by political beliefs. For example, i don't like Hexbear. I just block it. But if hexbear and solarpunk were a single instance, i wouldn't be able to separate the good and the bad.
But i agree that separating yourself too much from other ideas is bad, and echo chambers are bad in general.
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Cephalotrocity
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •like this
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Diplomjodler
in reply to Cephalotrocity • • •like this
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in reply to Cephalotrocity • • •like this
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Takapapatapaka
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •For people saying it's a weakness because it causes or is caused by censorship from the mods, are you directly experiencing it? If yes, on which instance?
I got involved in a few heated discussions with members, but I was never bothered by any moderator/admin. I'm not sure if this is due to my views (anarchism / libertarian communism) but I don't think so since they are not the ones of the main instances I roam (.world which seems quite soc-dem to me and all the tankies one).
To me all of this seems like an overall positive thing : the lack of hardcore far right dudes is a big plus, and I don't think the political views can really influence the quality and quantity of content you can propose otherwise (which is to my eyes why there is not that much people here). Like I don't think rightwing people will flee from Lemmy because of the political thing, but like i think most people do: mostly because there is not that many people and therefore that many content to begin with. But there again, I never directly experienced or witnessed political censorship or exclusion, and
... show moreFor people saying it's a weakness because it causes or is caused by censorship from the mods, are you directly experiencing it? If yes, on which instance?
I got involved in a few heated discussions with members, but I was never bothered by any moderator/admin. I'm not sure if this is due to my views (anarchism / libertarian communism) but I don't think so since they are not the ones of the main instances I roam (.world which seems quite soc-dem to me and all the tankies one).
To me all of this seems like an overall positive thing : the lack of hardcore far right dudes is a big plus, and I don't think the political views can really influence the quality and quantity of content you can propose otherwise (which is to my eyes why there is not that much people here). Like I don't think rightwing people will flee from Lemmy because of the political thing, but like i think most people do: mostly because there is not that many people and therefore that many content to begin with. But there again, I never directly experienced or witnessed political censorship or exclusion, and it seems a common experience so i might not have the best point of view.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to Takapapatapaka • • •I was banned on slrpnk because I said that Trump coming to power would be a dangerous thing for the world, people in Gaza included, and asked some questions about the point of view that was being expressed.
slrpnk.net/post/14823401
ponder.cat/modlog/2765?page=1&…
To me, the issue isn't that we need to make a safe space for MAGA. Those people tend to be so obnoxious that there doesn't even need to be a special rule for them to keep them out. The issue is that a lot of moderators seem to be nominating themselves the bosses of which are the permitted ideologies for people to talk about. Slrpnk does this, lemmy.ml does this. A lot of the niche "leftist" communities do it to anyone who's a mainstream liberal.
Some of the big lemmy.world communities also do their own brand of bad moderation, but it's usually not ideological, it's just stupid.
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nickwitha_k (he/him)
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to nickwitha_k (he/him) • • •That's an interesting theory... I think there are some selected mods who are exactly that, but I don't think that's exclusive to slrpnk. One of my little conspiracy theories is that those bad actors got really good on Reddit at how to "take over" a subreddit so they can start bending it to be the way they want it to be, and I think a couple of the slrpnk mods have wormed their way into the good graces of the admins there and then used the anarchism as cover for pushing authoritarian agendas. I guess it's possible that the slrpnk mod community as a whole is bad-faith actors, but I don't think so.
I got curious about that one slrpnk mod who I tangled with who was pushing Green Party propaganda and deleting my comments about it, and just checked to see what he's been up to since the election. My guess was that he would have switched to pushing "hard anarchism," violence, reasons to hate the right wing, guns, things like that to stoke division. Nope. It's been total crickets.
Turns out his passion for anarchism was fueled by the election, and since it's over, he h
... show moreThat's an interesting theory... I think there are some selected mods who are exactly that, but I don't think that's exclusive to slrpnk. One of my little conspiracy theories is that those bad actors got really good on Reddit at how to "take over" a subreddit so they can start bending it to be the way they want it to be, and I think a couple of the slrpnk mods have wormed their way into the good graces of the admins there and then used the anarchism as cover for pushing authoritarian agendas. I guess it's possible that the slrpnk mod community as a whole is bad-faith actors, but I don't think so.
I got curious about that one slrpnk mod who I tangled with who was pushing Green Party propaganda and deleting my comments about it, and just checked to see what he's been up to since the election. My guess was that he would have switched to pushing "hard anarchism," violence, reasons to hate the right wing, guns, things like that to stoke division. Nope. It's been total crickets.
Turns out his passion for anarchism was fueled by the election, and since it's over, he hasn't had as much of a reason to be passionate about it. He posted 5 articles a few days ago, and right after the election he got in some kind of argument about the election which wound up getting a bunch of his comments removed, but other than that, no anarchism or participation of any kind. Weird how that works.
nickwitha_k (he/him)
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •That's exactly what I think. I don't think that it's slrpnk as a whole but that anarchism comm on the instance had very problematic mods (who have indeed gone silent, pretty much proving that they were bad faith actors). They constantly acted to spread propaganda and silence anyone who disagreed. IIRC, one even all but outted themselves as a state actor. They're all quiet now because they got what they wanted; successfully sewing enough discord in anarchist and other anti-authoritarian communities to prevent critical mass or embrace of effective strategies for positive societal change.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to nickwitha_k (he/him) • • •Takapapatapaka
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Thanks also for the explanation about the instance in the answer
Rimu
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Normally I'd say it was a weakness but the right has significantly departed from reality in most countries for way too long now. It's incredibly rare to find a right-winger who can be present in a discussion without spewing a whole lot of vile conspiracy hate fascist bullshit.
So I find their absence refreshing, desirable and a strength of Lemmy.
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bluGill
in reply to Rimu • • •I find the same on the left wing. Everytime I put out a slightly right wing position I get attacked and a ton of down votes.
Every time anyone mentions on Lemmy right wing positions it is with only to attack a strawman version that is very removed from what most right wing people think/do.
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PhilipTheBucket
in reply to bluGill • • •Downvotes can't actually hurt you.
Personally, I'm fine with saying unpopular things and getting downvoted for it. Mods removing a disallowed viewpoint is something different.
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sunzu2
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •They will only do that if the opinion actually resonates lol
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to sunzu2 • • •Haha yes, that's usually the issue. I talked down below about getting banned on slrpnk because of some things I was saying. The comment thread with all the highly-upvoted replies getting removed by the mod, and the downvoted stuff intact, is hilarious to me:
slrpnk.net/post/14823401/11895…
The same mod also had a habit of arguing with people, while removing their comments but leaving his own side of the argument intact. He's still a moderator there. In my opinion slrpnk needs to spend less time talking about anarchism and more time embodying anarchism.
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sunzu2
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •well you did kinda invade their safe space with common sense ideas, shit lord hehe
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to sunzu2 • • •"We're anarchists."
"Cool. Here's an urgent problem I see for the world that I think we should work on."
"SHIT COCK GET OUT DISALLOWED We don't say that here. You're receiving a gentle ban, to think about what you've done. Be better."
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sunzu2
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •That's the current modding situation across any community focused on working class politics... as if people running them are not interested in helping the peasants.
Why would anyone act like that on social media... for free at that
TheFonz
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •hono4kami
in reply to sunzu2 • • •like this
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hono4kami
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •I use solarpunk and disappointed that it happened to you. I felt like solarpunk was the best instance Lemmy has, it feels like it has the least amount of echo chamber. Maybe I'm wrong.
I moderate my own community in solarpunk and I will try my best to not be like the moderator you talk about
poVoq
in reply to hono4kami • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to poVoq • • •All I've done is link to the comments section illustrating what I was saying had happened, had happened.
Here he is, arguing with people while removing their comments and leaving his comments in place: slrpnk.net/post/14823401/11894…
I have no idea why you're defending this guy. Like I said, the communities that try to "protect" their points of view, saying that one viewpoint is permitted in their space but other ones are will get you banned, generally become laughingstocks over time. It's very different from protecting against abuse or racism, when you "protect" your space against people who don't agree with some particular detail the way some particular person has interpreted it, and appoint an arbiter of what are the allowed interpretations, to ban anyone they disagree with. I think you should abandon that practice, and the censorship of ideas you disagree with, if you want to say that you're supporting an instance that respects individual human freedom.
I
... show moreAll I've done is link to the comments section illustrating what I was saying had happened, had happened.
Here he is, arguing with people while removing their comments and leaving his comments in place: slrpnk.net/post/14823401/11894…
I have no idea why you're defending this guy. Like I said, the communities that try to "protect" their points of view, saying that one viewpoint is permitted in their space but other ones are will get you banned, generally become laughingstocks over time. It's very different from protecting against abuse or racism, when you "protect" your space against people who don't agree with some particular detail the way some particular person has interpreted it, and appoint an arbiter of what are the allowed interpretations, to ban anyone they disagree with. I think you should abandon that practice, and the censorship of ideas you disagree with, if you want to say that you're supporting an instance that respects individual human freedom.
I don't really have a problem with you in general, I was a little bit surprised that you came out swinging to defend this moderator. Maybe this all sounds like sour grapes on my part, but that is usually the result of banning people for disagreeing with you. It sparks a surprising amount of resentment.
poVoq
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to poVoq • • •That "explained in detail" is your interpretation. In most non-authoritarian communities, nobody has a monopoly on providing the blessed correct interpretation of what happened. I wasn't even speaking to why I was moderated or the interpretations on the part of the slrpnk people that led to it, just what happened. You can provide your interpretation of the events and the reasons why I was temp banned, sure.
slrpnk.net/post/14823401
In my opinion, the broader context is that if someone wants to say their opinion, it's okay if they disagree with someone. It's not an "attack" and people don't need to be "defended" against seeing enemy points of view, as long as they're reasonable. You seem to have a different context you like to frame things in, where a post with 10 comments needs to be locked and half the comments removed if they are expressing an incorrect point of view. Like I keep saying, I think you are expressing anarchist trappings while violating anarchist principles in how yo
... show moreThat "explained in detail" is your interpretation. In most non-authoritarian communities, nobody has a monopoly on providing the blessed correct interpretation of what happened. I wasn't even speaking to why I was moderated or the interpretations on the part of the slrpnk people that led to it, just what happened. You can provide your interpretation of the events and the reasons why I was temp banned, sure.
slrpnk.net/post/14823401
In my opinion, the broader context is that if someone wants to say their opinion, it's okay if they disagree with someone. It's not an "attack" and people don't need to be "defended" against seeing enemy points of view, as long as they're reasonable. You seem to have a different context you like to frame things in, where a post with 10 comments needs to be locked and half the comments removed if they are expressing an incorrect point of view. Like I keep saying, I think you are expressing anarchist trappings while violating anarchist principles in how you run your instance, and also creating a bad reputation for your instance, when you do that. You do you, though.
Skiluros
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to Skiluros • • •Skiluros
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Don't get me wrong, I recognize it's a solid instance and I am going to continue engaging in their communities.
Just the admin reaction was a bit strange. I think mods/admins need to try and take a neutral position as much as possible (exceptions notwithstanding).
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to Skiluros • • •hono4kami
in reply to poVoq • • •poVoq
in reply to hono4kami • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to poVoq • • •I started out aiming to talk about the issue without reference to any past drama, but then someone specifically asked, "censorship from the mods, are you directly experiencing it? If yes, on which instance?" and specifically as related to anarchist points of view. Before today, I'd pretty much forgotten about the whole thing, but it's a pretty valid and interesting question and so I sent some of the citations about when it happened to me.
I can feel through the screen how much you would like to be able to just order me not to be able to discuss this anymore, since my view is officially "incorrect" according to you. Fortunately, that's not how it works.
poVoq
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •hono4kami
in reply to poVoq • • •poVoq
in reply to hono4kami • • •TheFonz
in reply to poVoq • • •TheFonz
in reply to poVoq • • •bluGill
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Noel_Skum
in reply to bluGill • • •Rimu
in reply to bluGill • • •like this
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ZeroOne
in reply to bluGill • • •(Do you get what I mean)
Use both Right & Left policies, I think it was called Moderatism or Communitarianism
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OpenStars
in reply to bluGill • • •It would help if you would be more precise. You are using a "feels like" statement here, which I have to disagree with b/c it is objectively false: all it would take would be to find a singular example wherein it was not true, at which point "every time" is shown to be invalid.
But often that does occur, yes. Sometimes our choice of wording can impede rather than aid in understanding?
And I say this as someone who seems to be more often misunderstood than not, go figure :-|.
bluGill
in reply to OpenStars • • •rglullis
in reply to Rimu • • •Please... this is a serious display of availability bias.
Let's face it: the demographic here is just a hyper concentrated version of Reddit, which itself is mostly middle-upper class tweenagers from affluent countries. They get online and get convinced that everyone is just like them.
The average person that hangs out on Reddit-like forums absolutely does not represent the population at large, and any "right-winger who can be present in a discussion without spewing a whole lot of vile conspiracy hate fascist bullshit" has learned that there is no way one can have a reasonable exchange of ideas in any forum like this.
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fxomt
in reply to rglullis • • •There are many right wingers here, not conservatives. Liberals are right wing, and lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works are mainly liberal instances.
What rimu was mainly talking about are conservatives, or even far right users. So he wasn't criticizing the whole right wing, he just used the term right wing to refer to those.
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rglullis
in reply to fxomt • • •Case closed.
fxomt
in reply to rglullis • • •like this
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MajorHavoc
in reply to fxomt • • •Yep. I'm fiscally conservative, mildly sympathetic to people who fear and resist change, and fond of the pragmatic pursuit of libertarian ideals, where that's possible.
I also feel that how others do sex is none of my damn business, taxes supporting social services are necessary, and equitably applied rule of law is critical for any real economic prosperity.
On the scale of history, I suspect that makes me centrist or even a moderate conservative.
In my country, and today, somehow, astonishingly, this combination makes me what most would call very left leaning.
I feel that the right has gone insane and continues to alienate people who might otherwise have been allies.
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fxomt
in reply to MajorHavoc • • •Let me guess, the US? The only people i've ever heard call liberals something as BS as far-left communists are conservative americans. The overton window in america is so ridiculous it's hilarious.
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Noel_Skum
in reply to fxomt • • •fxomt
in reply to Noel_Skum • • •I'm assuming you're talking in a US perspective.
Leftism describes a spectrum of political ideologies that seeks to minimize hierarchies and desires to achieve equality and egalitarianism. Liberalism is a pro-capitalist ideology, and capitalism is hierarchial and is unequal. Thus, liberalism is right wing. Progressivism isn't related to right or left wing. You can be a communist but socially conservative. You can be fiscally conservative and be progressive. In the US, being left wing or right wing is mainly measured on how progressive, or if you support social programs (a little leftist, but still can be right wing, just center-right). Liberalism is right wing. Conservatism is far right.
Noel_Skum
in reply to fxomt • • •fxomt
in reply to Noel_Skum • • •like this
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Noel_Skum
in reply to fxomt • • •fxomt
in reply to Noel_Skum • • •Seems that I am not as educated as you on liberalism. I focus more on socialist ideologies rather than liberalism or other ideologies, So I'll give this one to you.
Have a great weekend :)
Noel_Skum
in reply to fxomt • • •I’m no expert - it’s just that the (UK) liberal party merged with a left of centre party, the SDP (Social Democratic Party) and were briefly called the SDLP; before rebranding to the Liberal Democrats. They are still left of centre.
I think a lot of the liberal views towards capitalism can only be seen through the context of trying to humanise the inherent framework of capitalism. I think you’re correct that they never looked beyond existing within capitalism and therefore perhaps ultimately paid a price for that.
Thanks for the weekend wishes, same to you.
TheFonz
in reply to fxomt • • •I know it's comfortable to sit and call anything slightly right of ultra socialism as 'right wing' but a spectrum exists.
To conflate republican evangelical dominionist Christians with liberals is peak hubris.
There is a saying: 'when you're a hammer, every problem is a nail'. When you reduce everything to class warfare you're not engaging in an effective discourse to reduce harm in the world. You're just pontificating on the merits of socialism, which yea, we all agree are neat. But so what? You think folding everyone else into a basket gives you credence or helps the discourse in any way?
fxomt
in reply to TheFonz • • •I wasn't conflating. Conservatives are not liberals. But they are both right wing. (at least, classical liberals are)
And there is more than just class warfare, i agree.
But so what? why does it matter that they are right wing? not everyone has to be a communist.
The term left and right are very ambiguous to define in the first place. Some people argue that leftism is anti-capitalism. Some argue that leftism is just belief in equality. They are all right. Same thing with the right wing.
TheFonz
in reply to fxomt • • •I think my issue is with the usage of the phrase "right wing" because we need something scathing to label liberals. It doesn't really contribute anything to the discourse except create layers of exclusion.
Liberalism, broadly, is not interested in supporting or enabling hierarchies. The only thing they share in common with right wing conservatism is the ownership of private property -but that's it. So lumping them all in the same bucket isn't doing much for anyone except creating more exclusion at the risk of pushing forward socialist policies. The reality is liberals are probably more likely to favor equality, even if it's just ideological. Shouldn't we strive to bring more people on board and build bridges rather than continue this bizarre war of artrition?
Wikipedia: Right Wing Politics
fxomt
in reply to TheFonz • • •My intent was not to cause division, I originally meant to clear things up for the user I was originally replying to, but things quickly descended into arguing about semantics. I agree that we should all work together to eliminate the rising threat of far right, fascist parties worldwide. That is what we should be focusing on.
I'm tired over me bikeshedding, So i'm just going to forfeit out of this argument.
Have a great weekend
TheFonz
in reply to fxomt • • •We don't have to have an argument over it. It's ok to have a conversation. I'm familiar with the 'liberals are right wing' talking point.
I'm just trying to understand what exactly it is that defines 'right wing' and how we define 'liberalism' . You're right, it IS a semantic discussion, but clearly the implication is that liberalism is on par with being right wing. So, nonetheless, a semantic relabeling which is not devoid of consequences.
So I'm wondering, at what point do those two overlap (liberalism and right wing politics)? Is it the right to private property? Beyond that, what exactly makes liberalism 'right wing'?
fxomt
in reply to TheFonz • • •I should have specified, i was talking about classical liberalism. Social liberals are center-left to left wing.
The way i see it, the barebones definition of right wing and left wing is that leftism supports minimization, or abolishment of hierarchy, and equality, both class and social. You don't have to be 100% of all these points to be left wing, just a degree of it.
The right wing believes that hierarchies are natural, and inevitable, or even desirable.
They believe inequality is natural, due to social differences. Most of them believe that authority is good (not exclusive to right wing politics, there are authoritarian leftist ideologies) with libertarians and ancaps being an exception.
Classical liberals believe in free market, and generally have negative views on social services, taxes, and such.
Social liberals believe in a mixed economy, and favour social services, and believe in social justice (also class equality, but not a huge talking point for them). I think this makes them center, and at most, center-left (See social democracy or the nordi
... show moreI should have specified, i was talking about classical liberalism. Social liberals are center-left to left wing.
The way i see it, the barebones definition of right wing and left wing is that leftism supports minimization, or abolishment of hierarchy, and equality, both class and social. You don't have to be 100% of all these points to be left wing, just a degree of it.
The right wing believes that hierarchies are natural, and inevitable, or even desirable.
They believe inequality is natural, due to social differences. Most of them believe that authority is good (not exclusive to right wing politics, there are authoritarian leftist ideologies) with libertarians and ancaps being an exception.
Classical liberals believe in free market, and generally have negative views on social services, taxes, and such.
Social liberals believe in a mixed economy, and favour social services, and believe in social justice (also class equality, but not a huge talking point for them). I think this makes them center, and at most, center-left (See social democracy or the nordic model). What makes them different than socialists and communists is that they are not quite radical in comparison to them, socialists desire to minimize wealth inequality (and inequality in general. politically, socially, etc) as much as possible.
Another point that you brought up is private property. I think this is also a defining factor on why I think liberals tend to be more right leaning.
You can still believe in markets, and be far left. Socialism, is when the workers own the means of production. It's a pretty barebones definition, which makes it possible to have free markets, AND socialism. See Mutualism, Market Socialism, and Titoism
TheFonz
in reply to fxomt • • •I agree with all of this. However, and I could be wrong, my understanding of classic liberalism is that it was never directly opposed to regulation or social services. My initial understanding is that it's by necessity tied to free markets and private property.
But if it is then I'm learning something new.
fxomt
in reply to TheFonz • • •TheFonz
in reply to fxomt • • •Squorlple
in reply to rglullis • • •like this
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limer
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Maybe lemmy will grow over time to include more types of people.
Social unrest may evolve this network faster than expected, in particular ways that are not foreseen. So, in my mind there are two paths for lemmy. A stable growth or chaotic .
Edit : unrest in any country that has a lot of lemmy users if alternative social networks clamp down or are unsafe to use
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sunzu2
in reply to limer • • •Hello_there
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •like this
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Steve
in reply to Hello_there • • •horse_battery_staple
in reply to Steve • • •Even Daryl Davis says that there's more Nazis every day
newsweek.com/daryl-davis-black…
Mr.Mofu
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •sunzu2
in reply to Mr.Mofu • • •Th4tGuyII
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •It's a weakness in the sense that there are times this place turns into a straight-up echo chamber...
But when there is actual debate going on, it tends to be a lot more civil than on other sites (most of the time)
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aislopmukbang
in reply to Th4tGuyII • • •Yeah hasn't been helpful for getting a sense for the minds of the masses but generally a lot more grounded than reddit
Also though echo chambers are bad most of the time for most people, occasionally they help in challenging our own beliefs but only when engaged critically.
TimeSquirrel
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •I'm here because I DON'T want to have to read fucked up opinions. People here are mostly nice compared to mainstream platforms.
I'm all for difference of opinion, but not when one of those opinions is "we should oppress LGBT people" for example. 10-15 years ago, I'd have been more receptive to discussing opposing opinions, but shit has changed. A lot of those opposing opinions are now simply unacceptable to even entertain, because they've become a real, actual threat to my well-being. People aren't discussing tax policy anymore, they are discussing imposing states of emergency to do some kind of purge on undesirables.
Some people call it an echo chamber, I just call it chilling and having fun with like-minded people. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what forums have always been.
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cRazi_man
in reply to TimeSquirrel • • •Try disagreeing with the hive mind. Anyone can be nice to someone who echo's their own opinion. The real niceness of a person is revealed when they can show civility to people they disagree with (I'm not talking about LGBTQ oppressors or Nazis......there's a huge spectrum of opinions that aren't extreme).
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Blaze (he/him)
in reply to cRazi_man • • •I'm on BlueSky on top of IceShrimp because anything better than Twitter is good to use at this point.
Let's see how downvoted I get.
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Serinus
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •I'm also on BlueSky as well as Mastodon, because BlueSky has the momentum right now, and critical mass is important.
In that same vein, I wish you'd treat LW as you do any other instance. We're not hostile to other instances, and I think there's a healthy balance right now. It doesn't hurt Lemmy to have a bigger, more mainstream instance. I think defederation solely for the sake of defederation does hurt Lemmy.
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Blaze (he/him)
in reply to Serinus • • •I never advocated for defederation of LW, just for more decentralization rather than have 90% of the active communities on LW.
You never answered my latest comment: lemmy.world/comment/13624614
What prevents you from locking !television@lemmy.world, redirect to !showsandmovies@lemm.ee, and get that community more active?
I can even make you or any other LW mod mod of that community too, I'm not attached to being a mod, I just want communities to flourish on other instances as well.
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Serinus
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •Blaze (he/him)
in reply to Serinus • • •What good is 4600 subscribers when 754 are active?
I just checked the updated numbers, now it's 2.57k monthly active users for lemm.ee vs 958 on LW.
On !showsandmovies@lemm.ee, we actively build the community, we have a best of 2024 post, we opened the moderation posts to any person willing to help, while you keep that community unmoderated with 2 bots as mods.
Really, I just don't understand. What are you afraid of? I'm pretty sure that !mapporn@lemmy.world had more subs than !map_enthusiasts@sopuli.xyz when it was locked down, but it was still okay, because the activity was happening on the sopuli instance.
I just checked, !electricvehicles@lemmy.world has more subscribers than !electricvehicles@slrpnk.net , but the slrpnk community was still chosen when the consolidation happened:
... show moreWhat good is 4600 subscribers when 754 are active?
I just checked the updated numbers, now it's 2.57k monthly active users for lemm.ee vs 958 on LW.
On !showsandmovies@lemm.ee, we actively build the community, we have a best of 2024 post, we opened the moderation posts to any person willing to help, while you keep that community unmoderated with 2 bots as mods.
Really, I just don't understand. What are you afraid of? I'm pretty sure that !mapporn@lemmy.world had more subs than !map_enthusiasts@sopuli.xyz when it was locked down, but it was still okay, because the activity was happening on the sopuli instance.
I just checked, !electricvehicles@lemmy.world has more subscribers than !electricvehicles@slrpnk.net , but the slrpnk community was still chosen when the consolidation happened: lemm.ee/post/46935805
If you're afraid about losing the people, you just pin a post, point to the new community, similar to !casualconversation@lemmy.world, and that's it.
I did everything fair. "Not happy with the community? Create your own, and become the better one!". I did, everything, and while we've had success, the LW staying open hinders the growth of that topic as a whole.
You ask me to treat LW as any other instance, but no other instance is reacting in that way, preferring to keep some of their communities open when other people actively try to build an active community on a topic that apparently only a few people are interested in anyway.
Serinus
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •Blaze (he/him)
in reply to Serinus • • •Gradually_Adjusting
in reply to cRazi_man • • •supersquirrel
in reply to Gradually_Adjusting • • •The version of someone you invite in the door determines the initial trajectory of how that person will act in the community. You can invite in the leading edge of someone's developing kindness or invite in the ossifying mass of their nature that is threatening to turn hateful and uncaring. No one instance of invitation to a new person (however that may happen, formally or informally) pushes the needle far either way within any one particular person (though sometimes it can radically do so) but the overall integrated effect is a moderate shift of the an entire community towards the better or worse version of the community members. When this effect is used for good people often describe the resulting community space as a community that accepts them for who they are or more succintly is a genuinely safe space.
Of course, every interaction is in an invitation in some small way, it doesn't just happen once.
TheFonz
in reply to Gradually_Adjusting • • •OpenStars
in reply to TheFonz • • •Overall the people here are nicer.
The extremes are higher though - some people were booted from Reddit for a reason, and they came here.
TheFonz
in reply to OpenStars • • •OpenStars
in reply to TheFonz • • •The presence of the high end of the extreme is what blew me away though. On Reddit I had given up all hope bc it never happened (even from myself, as I kept becoming more defensive, more snarky but less kind) while here the fact that it sometimes, heck even often happens, is just... outstanding!
😍
Also the low end of the extreme is concentrated into specific instances, such that blocking Lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net will improve someone's experience on the Fediverse by ~90%, and then blocking users from lemmy.ml (with the PieFed Lemmy alternative, or either the Sync or Connect Lemmy apps, or lemmy.cafe, dubvee.org, or quokk.au at the instance admin level) improves by a further 90% I found.
So the structure of the curve matters greatly here, to someone's quality of experiences in the Fediverse.
Miles O'Brien
in reply to TimeSquirrel • • •Yeah, I don't think anyone would ask you "Are you okay with sitting at the bar with nazis?" yet plenty will happily judge you for saying "I'd rather not have to deal with MAGAts and their opinions"
Sorry but if your opinion is "trans people aren't people" or "blacks need to know their place" then your opinion is shit and no the fuck I don't have to listen to it
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ArcaneSlime
in reply to Miles O'Brien • • •But another question, "are you ok with sitting at the bar with nazis, but they're wearing red shirts with a hammer and sickle on them and espousing the same propensity for murder?"
Lemmy is fine with murder and genocide so long as you wear the right shirt while doing it.
Source: .ml, grad, hexbear.
queermunist she/her
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •LovableSidekick
in reply to Miles O'Brien • • •I agree, which is why I recently kicked a MAGA guy out of my D&D group that meets at my house. I had tolerated him up to then because he generally acted decent and was a good player. But after the election I decided I just don't feel like extending my hospitality to that anymore.
But on the flip side when I hear a phrase like, "uncomfortable with trans people" my first reaction is, "What makes you uncomfortable?" instead of, "Fuck you you fucking bigoted fuck!" For that moral imperfection in my character I've received name-calling and at least one ban. Whatever. People have irrational fears and I'm not going to exile them to the desert because their "eww" reflex isn't pristine.
FundMECFSResearch
in reply to TimeSquirrel • • •Skiluros
in reply to FundMECFSResearch • • •trevor
in reply to Skiluros • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to trevor • • •PugJesus
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •like this
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OpenStars
in reply to PugJesus • • •Preemptively let me say that I agree, although there is an entire spectrum along which people can hold their beliefs, and then on top of that there is the strength with which they hold them that can vary a lot - including some who are apolitical entirely as far as they themselves may be aware.
Also, recalling the phrase "first they came for..." - remember that WE are the "right-wingers", from the perspective of instances such as lemmygrad.ml, lemmy.ml, and hexbear.net. I am not saying that Truth is subjective, but the definitions of those particular terms most definitely are.
So if they exclude us, and then we exclude "centrists", who themselves exclude people to either side of them... ultimately what does that make us - conservatives ourselves, chasing some kind of ideological "purity"?
Let's get back to me agreeing with you now, but clarifying why: we MUST be intolerant to those who are intolerant of others. However, to those who ARE tolerant... shouldn't we be as tolerant to them as we can stand to be? As in, interact with them civilly even if we do n
... show morePreemptively let me say that I agree, although there is an entire spectrum along which people can hold their beliefs, and then on top of that there is the strength with which they hold them that can vary a lot - including some who are apolitical entirely as far as they themselves may be aware.
Also, recalling the phrase "first they came for..." - remember that WE are the "right-wingers", from the perspective of instances such as lemmygrad.ml, lemmy.ml, and hexbear.net. I am not saying that Truth is subjective, but the definitions of those particular terms most definitely are.
So if they exclude us, and then we exclude "centrists", who themselves exclude people to either side of them... ultimately what does that make us - conservatives ourselves, chasing some kind of ideological "purity"?
Let's get back to me agreeing with you now, but clarifying why: we MUST be intolerant to those who are intolerant of others. However, to those who ARE tolerant... shouldn't we be as tolerant to them as we can stand to be? As in, interact with them civilly even if we do not fully agree with everything they say?
So leftist vs. right(-ist?), I don't care what someone is, so much as I care whether they are tolerant of others. BUT NOT TO THE INTOLERANT (i.e. not the Alt-Right, and also not the Alt-Left that I see hanging out on various Lemmy instances).
Kichae
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •The political divesity is less of an issue than the political ferver. Most people don't want to talk aboit politics. They want to avoid political discussions, and get upset when people do things as basic as pointing out that politics exists in their bubble.
The fediverse turns them off because it's loaded with politically aware and stubbornly vocal people, not because there aren't enough people playing apologetics for the ruling class
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queermunist she/her
in reply to Kichae • • •proceduralnightshade
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •First of all I disagree, there's a lot of different opinions on here. But it is true that there's a general agreement on some big matters (Nazis bad, capitalism bad), which is beneficial when it comes to discussing matters that are outside of mere debate.
If I want to read shitty opinions and engage in fruitless discussion for the fuck of it I can just go to Reddit or 4chan. lemmy is my comfy space. I want it to be an echo chamber.
WatDabney
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •I guess it could be counted as a weakness as far as attracting new users go, but I think it's a strength overall.
It would be sort of nice if there was a stronger right-wing presence here, but at this point in our history, the right is overtly toxic. They've completely lost touch with honesty, empathy, integrity and simple human decency. Their entire identity at this point is built on hatred, bigotry and callous disregard for anyone other than themselves. They poison everything they touch, so the fact that they can't gain a foothold here is very much to our benefit.
If we survive this era of Trump/Putin/Netanyahu/Polievre/Le Pen/Modi/Meloni/Hanson/etc., then hopefully the right will reconnect with reality, integrity and simple decency enough that they can take part in a community without turning it into a cesspool of hatred and lies, but unless and until that happens, this place is absolutely better off without them.
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Doug Holland
in reply to WatDabney • • •Right on, dude. It would be refreshing to see right-wing arguments advocating a serious fact-based (instead of hate-based and/or lie-based) position on any issue. I'd still disagree, but I'd welcome that disagreement.
Until that glorious future when "the right will reconnect with reality, integrity and simple decency," I am delighted that they're underrepresented on Lemmy.
ArcaneSlime
in reply to Doug Holland • • •Nate
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • •Personally I've decreased my Lemmy usage a lot due to its echo chambery-ness. I avoided the political subs since day one, both since I'm personally not a big politics junkie and because I'm not in alignment with Lemmy's specific brand of politics, but things also extend to other topics as well.
A lot of the enjoyment of using Lemmy is getting news/articles and seeing what people think, but even in the tech spaces the range of tech news is somewhat limited and the top comments are almost always in line with Lemmy's specific tech thoughts (regardless of my agreement, I'd like to see interesting thoughts/commentary, if I can predict the theme of what's said it becomes less interesting). Sorting by new did help a little, even if a dissenting but well thought out idea was downvoted to oblivion I could still read it - but the value of link aggregators to me is articles + strangers thoughts, and if all the strangers have the same thoughts then I might as well stick with RSS.
My 2c anyways.
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hono4kami
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Weakness.
Limited range of political views breeds echo chamber. In my experience, you can't really have meaningful discussion inside an echo chamber. Disagreement, compromise, nuance doesn't exists inside an echo chamber. Just that same idea repeated over and over again.
Gonna be honest, you can't have meaningful and nuanced discussion here. Everything is black and white. Capitalism? It's the worst thing on earth. Religious people? Those people are idiots. Don't YOU dare use Windows, use Linux instead. ALL cops are bad, no exception.
This kind of things makes me actually scared of recommending people to Lemmy. I'm sure most people are casual people who doesn't have extreme views on anything. Just some people who wants to shut their brain off and scroll. I feel like the echo chamber I mentioned will put most people off.
Going tangent a bit--In general fediverse is not diverse.
When you scroll, you realize most of the post comes from the same kind of political ideas, same country (USA), same beliefs, etc.
You can't spell fediverse wit
... show moreWeakness.
Limited range of political views breeds echo chamber. In my experience, you can't really have meaningful discussion inside an echo chamber. Disagreement, compromise, nuance doesn't exists inside an echo chamber. Just that same idea repeated over and over again.
Gonna be honest, you can't have meaningful and nuanced discussion here. Everything is black and white. Capitalism? It's the worst thing on earth. Religious people? Those people are idiots. Don't YOU dare use Windows, use Linux instead. ALL cops are bad, no exception.
This kind of things makes me actually scared of recommending people to Lemmy. I'm sure most people are casual people who doesn't have extreme views on anything. Just some people who wants to shut their brain off and scroll. I feel like the echo chamber I mentioned will put most people off.
Going tangent a bit--In general fediverse is not diverse.
When you scroll, you realize most of the post comes from the same kind of political ideas, same country (USA), same beliefs, etc.
You can't spell fediverse without spelling diverse, yet I feel like fediverse is anything but diverse.
This needs to change.
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sunzu2
in reply to hono4kami • • •Half the people on here working to ensure that it never changes.
They want that echo chambers as if their life depends on maintaining a narrative.
hono4kami
in reply to sunzu2 • • •like this
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NoneOfUrBusiness
in reply to hono4kami • • •Okay for what it's worth as a Muslim I've found Lemmings to be a lot more civil about the religion thing than redditors. At least I feel that people here are less likely to think being atheist makes them smart.
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hono4kami
in reply to NoneOfUrBusiness • • •Oh hey, finally a fellow Muslim
Unfortunately my experience here is different :(
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ArcaneSlime
in reply to hono4kami • • •Docus
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •hono4kami
in reply to Docus • • •like this
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AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •OpenStars
in reply to AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet • • •Not everywhere though - e.g. lemm.ee tries to keep things open, at least on the instance level, and the anarchist servers (chiefly lemmy.dbzer0.com but iirc slrpnk.net as well) very much do not remove things that many people would expect them to if they had been more driven by a more authoritarian mindset.
In our new community !AskUSA@discuss.online for instance, I very much hope that we can remove comments that attempt such a shouting-down as would make people feel unwelcomed to be there - regardless of their political affiliation (so long as the people being shouted down do not DESERVE it for trolling, e.g. "my reason for helping the less fortunate than myself is my belief in the Christian God who guides all my ways" is absolutely fine but "your gawd is shit and u r too, l0s3r" is not).
Admiral Patrick
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •I don't care so much about the range of political views, just the quantity of them.
Too many people on Lemmy make their political ideology their entire identity, and it's just freaking exhausting.
Can we not just be people talking to other people about cool stuff? I just get sick of political ideologies masquerading as people.
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demesisx
in reply to Admiral Patrick • • •People that shy away from this stuff are almost always rich people that are intentionally unsympathetic to the plight of poor people. They’re the same people who downplay and mock trans people and other minorities because they have never known even a moment of misfortune or injustice in their entire lives.
If you lose your shit when you hear about politics, you simply don’t care about helping others. Period.
Personally, I don’t give a flying fuck about making Lemmy a safe space for the apolitical. Simply existing in the WORLD is political.
Until supposedly civilized countries stop grinding the poor into hamburger to feed their rich, the poor should be able to make their plight known and no space should be safe from that. In fact, I will actively avoid, boycott, and mock any social media platform that censors the poor from expressing their REAL opinions while pretending to care about free speech.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to demesisx • • •It is interesting to me that the people who are PASSIONATELY concerned about the plight of poor people in the third world, spend so much time pushing the solution of not voting for Kamala Harris, and so little time pushing support for charity work, NGOs in the United States, supporting the rare tiny handful of politicians who actually do care about human rights, or similar things. I think the amount of content I saw from them before the election that was dealing exclusively with the importance of not supporting Democrats probably outnumbered the other stuff by about 10:1. I guess as long as we make enough Kamala Harris memes, the Palestinians will be saved. Who knew?
Well, it worked out in the last election, I can't wait for everything to get better for everyone in Gaza. That's definitely what's going to happen now, right?
demesisx
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •I’ve run into you a few times. Let me save us both some time with the bullshit lesser of two evils finger wagging, neolib.
Kamala in no way, shape, or form supported any kind of peace in Palestine. So I have no idea what you’re pretending about.
Gabadabs
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •But sure, try to blame people that oppose the genocide in gaza. Sure..
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to Gabadabs • • •That's true. However, I think there was a massive propaganda effort, quite successful, to get people to follow certain antipatterns of logic to help get Trump elected:
And so on. It happens that foolish people on the left who thought that refusing to vote for Democrats was a way to help the Palestinians were one of the target audiences. But in the aggregate, I think the combination of those diverse populations getting suckered in their individual ways absolutely had a big impact on the election.
And please don't say I am blaming the people
... show moreThat's true. However, I think there was a massive propaganda effort, quite successful, to get people to follow certain antipatterns of logic to help get Trump elected:
And so on. It happens that foolish people on the left who thought that refusing to vote for Democrats was a way to help the Palestinians were one of the target audiences. But in the aggregate, I think the combination of those diverse populations getting suckered in their individual ways absolutely had a big impact on the election.
And please don't say I am blaming the people that oppose the genocide in Gaza. I oppose the genocide in Gaza. Everyone on Lemmy opposes the genocide in Gaza. Because I oppose the genocide in Gaza, I didn't want Trump to get elected, because he is about to make things much, much worse. If you have some tactical disagreement with how I want to oppose genocide, because you also oppose it but in some different way, then fine. But pretending that I have an issue with people who oppose genocide is just a dishonest strawman engineered in some think-tank somewhere, to help get Trump elected.
Gabadabs
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Kamala Harris had a very weak campaign that didn't address the concerns of young, white male voters. Personalities like Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro, and others really do appeal to those people, telling them that they're just fine and pointing their fingers at an endless list of targets to keep these people angry and afraid - and ultimately to vote for people like Donald who claim they'll fix everything.
I wasn't trying to strawman but I have seen a lot of online comments purely blaming leftists for this election, and it's frustrating.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to Gabadabs • • •What did I say, in my comment, to address exactly what you just repeated?
Specifically I'm interested in this part:
That had a very specific answer in the comment you're replying to.
barsoap
in reply to demesisx • • •[citation needed]
Now listen here whippersnapper I've been around too long to not know that it is, in fact, helpful for your praxis to touch grass. Declare it political if you want, but don't bloody talk about politics while doing it.
Read Clausewitz: Absolute war is impossible because for a people to turn all its efforts to war, it would have to give up the things that it is fighting to defend. War being nothing but the continuation of politics by other means, this also applies to politics.
It is you, here, who is trying to make politics an absolute war, you're the one barging into a bar where people are singing the people's songs and dancing the people's dances and say "up, to arms! what are you dancing, what are you singing, you need to fight for your right to s
... show more[citation needed]
Now listen here whippersnapper I've been around too long to not know that it is, in fact, helpful for your praxis to touch grass. Declare it political if you want, but don't bloody talk about politics while doing it.
Read Clausewitz: Absolute war is impossible because for a people to turn all its efforts to war, it would have to give up the things that it is fighting to defend. War being nothing but the continuation of politics by other means, this also applies to politics.
It is you, here, who is trying to make politics an absolute war, you're the one barging into a bar where people are singing the people's songs and dancing the people's dances and say "up, to arms! what are you dancing, what are you singing, you need to fight for your right to sing and dance!".
In short: Your praxis boils down to party pooping. Don't be a party pooper. Party with the people, then go back to your politics as others go back to their looms and mills.
demesisx
in reply to barsoap • • •I’m doing nothing of the sort. If anything, I’m barging into a bar where they’re in the process of discussing permanently banning anyone that even mentions politics at any non-pre-approved moment and shaming them for it.
barsoap
in reply to demesisx • • •So... you're banned here? Why then do I see your posts?
Cut that victim complex and actually engage with what I said instead of complaining that noone's listening when you say shit 99.99% of people here already know, providing not solutions but analysis that is so undercomplex it barely qualifies as soundbites.
You're not being a revolutionary, here. You're an angry kid taking their first breath, loudly screaming as to the sudden incursion of the real-world into your sheltered life. Plenty others have been taking breaths for long enough to not be screaming, but scheming. Get to that level instead of having the gall to say "when people ignore me then that must be because they're billionaires". Too easy. Suspiciously easy, don't you think? How many people ignore you, downvote you, how many billionaires are actually on lemmy?
demesisx
in reply to barsoap • • •barsoap
in reply to demesisx • • •You may want to have a look at the definition of "sarcasm" and "rhetoric".
I explained, in detail, why you're getting ignored. You still refuse to engage with the topic. Try to not ignore me, ignore others, maybe then you'll understand why what you say you simply doesn't resonate. It takes more than one person to vibe.
demesisx
in reply to barsoap • • •barsoap
in reply to demesisx • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to demesisx • • •Tsk, tsk. Upvoting yourself from alt accounts is generally a bannable offense. I've reported you.
Note: You're not being silenced for your opinion, here. You're being silenced, if you do get silenced, for your abuse of Lemmy systems. I realize you're probably going to conflate the two dishonestly, but that's what happened.
Cauê
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Do you have any evidence?
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to Cauê • • •kbin.earth/m/fediverse@lemmy.w…
Note the upvote from his alt on programming.dev, along with two suspect upvotes from other @infosec.pub accounts at exactly the same time. The one from @lemmy.eco.br seems like it could be real.
Cauê
in reply to barsoap • • •Lol, say you are a westerner liberal without saying you are a westerner liberal
barsoap
in reply to Cauê • • •Cauê
in reply to barsoap • • •barsoap
in reply to Cauê • • •Brazilian, eh? You mean the country with higher GDP/capita than no less than nine European countries?
Stop pretending to know, in any shape or form, what it is like to be born in Burundi. And don't pretend you're not a colonial state, you're barely better than the US when it comes to fucking over the indigenous population and that's not a high standard.
Stop pretending that 7:1 is an everyday occurrence and count those stars on your jersey.
PriorityMotif
in reply to Admiral Patrick • • •Delphia
in reply to Admiral Patrick • • •There needs to be a lemmy.norm or some shit.
Just photoshop requests, memes, hobbies and dumb "askreddit" shit.
OpenStars
in reply to Delphia • • •Discuss.Online seems that way.
Perhaps lemmy.today although that barely has any local content.
lemmy.ca? It does have a politicalmemes@lemmy.ca but other stuff too:-).
OpenStars
in reply to Admiral Patrick • • •I find it highly interesting how in the replies to your message people are proving you right:-).
But fwiw, I do want to push back a little on my own irt your phrasing: perhaps it is not so much the intensity of someone's views as the degree of welcomingness extended to people of all walks. Non-intuitively to some: this REQUIRES that we kick out people engaging in bad faith. However, once that's done, shouldn't we extend a welcoming hand to all who come in good faith?
Tbh I may not be expressing myself well there... so I'll try with more extreme language: Nazis are bad, and thereby the Alt-Right that extends a welcoming hand to neo-nazis are bad, but centrists and liberals (both of whom would be called right-wing by many people internationally) should be made to feel welcomed? So breadth of political views - so long as delivered in good faith - not that the breadth is the thing desired, but rather the allowance for PEOPLE to come in and talk, if they want, regardless of their political views. The focus here is on the people - the tolerance is just the means to that good
... show moreI find it highly interesting how in the replies to your message people are proving you right:-).
But fwiw, I do want to push back a little on my own irt your phrasing: perhaps it is not so much the intensity of someone's views as the degree of welcomingness extended to people of all walks. Non-intuitively to some: this REQUIRES that we kick out people engaging in bad faith. However, once that's done, shouldn't we extend a welcoming hand to all who come in good faith?
Tbh I may not be expressing myself well there... so I'll try with more extreme language: Nazis are bad, and thereby the Alt-Right that extends a welcoming hand to neo-nazis are bad, but centrists and liberals (both of whom would be called right-wing by many people internationally) should be made to feel welcomed? So breadth of political views - so long as delivered in good faith - not that the breadth is the thing desired, but rather the allowance for PEOPLE to come in and talk, if they want, regardless of their political views. The focus here is on the people - the tolerance is just the means to that good end (and this only works if we are intolerant to specifically those who are themselves intolerant).
Admiral Patrick
in reply to OpenStars • • •Lol, what replies? I guess I've already blocked most/all the people I was referring to (or they're on
.mlwhich I don't federate with for pretty much this exact reason)When, out of nowhere, people put other people into boxes, ascribe a political label to them, and put words in their mouths without knowing anything about them, it is a HUGE turn off to me as far as interactions go.
e.g. A comment that's taken out of context and the reply is basically, "Hurr, durr, that's such an enlightened centrist thing to say. Guess you're okay with a little fascism, huh, lib?". That's pretty fucking cringe and going to make me immediately block the person saying it (and I have and will continue to do so). Like, if that's how their mind works, taking things out of context, jumping to conclusions, and projecting labels out of nowhere: I got nothing for them.
I
... show moreLol, what replies? I guess I've already blocked most/all the people I was referring to (or they're on
.mlwhich I don't federate with for pretty much this exact reason)When, out of nowhere, people put other people into boxes, ascribe a political label to them, and put words in their mouths without knowing anything about them, it is a HUGE turn off to me as far as interactions go.
e.g. A comment that's taken out of context and the reply is basically, "Hurr, durr, that's such an enlightened centrist thing to say. Guess you're okay with a little fascism, huh, lib?". That's pretty fucking cringe and going to make me immediately block the person saying it (and I have and will continue to do so). Like, if that's how their mind works, taking things out of context, jumping to conclusions, and projecting labels out of nowhere: I got nothing for them.
I'm not here with an agenda, I'm not trying to spread my beliefs, I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything (except maybe Linux lol), etc. I just wanna share and talk about cool shit.
And you know there's someone reading this thinking (and possibly commenting) that the fact I haven't announced myself to the room as a raging leftie means I must be a nazi in disguise. (Nope. Just someone who's not here for political shit). My political beliefs and leanings are my own, and if they're not apparent from my post/comment history, then whoever's judging me just hasn't paid attention.
As for how I treat people, as long as they're clearly operating in good faith and with a good attitude, I welcome them until such time they've veered outside of civility or proven to be a troll, actual Nazi, or otherwise.
OpenStars
in reply to Admiral Patrick • • •Exactly. Judgement is such hard work - best to avoid it when possible, but if necessary, not shy away from it either. Although in the latter case some WORK needs to be put in, if the desire is to do it correctly.
So many people claiming "bUt i WaS BaNNeD foR beInG ToO FrIenDlY, i'M ReaLlY sUcH a nIcE gUy", when it is patently obvious to anyone who looks that that is not the case.
realcaseyrollins
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •MyDogLovesMe
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Cris
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •I think it's both. I can avoid having to engage with cruel or shitty perspectives as often, but I also don't love spending so much social time in an echo chamber, it's not great for you.
I think echo chambers are really bad for a culture and for people immersed in them, but like not seeing Nazi shit is certainly nice
aesthelete
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •like this
dandi8 likes this.
Noel_Skum
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •OpenStars
in reply to Noel_Skum • • •Agreed but I want to push you to go further: it's not just politics that has been so influenced.
Even Google searches - once world-renowned for their recall and precision and overall helpfulness, now are shit. Reddit as well. Twitter... well, apparently was always a hellhole?
YouTube was not though - until it was bought by Google.
Enshittification destroys all that it touches. Even/especially governments. Though the same happened to Rome, so many thousands of years ago. And to Russia too, more recently, despite it ostensibly calling itself "communist"/leftist.
I do think that there was a plan to help move it along, but I also think that it might have been an inevitable consequence of (more or less) entirely unfettered capitalism, and that those two worked together to destroy a nation that once was struggling far less than it seems to be doing lately?
OlPatchy2Eyes
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Blaze (he/him)
in reply to OlPatchy2Eyes • • •OpenStars
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •Omg !tenforward@lemmy.world is also amazing, check it out! Also there's Risa and the Star Wars memes etc. - there are so many fantastic memes communities available:-).
Separately, you may be interested to know that the entire "vibe" of Lemmy has changed in the last two weeks. Very seriously, check out an instance where you are not logged in and just take a peek at what the most popular content is lately. I'm not suggesting that you wallow in it but you should know what's going on lately bc it affects the future of us all.
Blaze (he/him)
in reply to OpenStars • • •I'm not familiar with Star Trek, so I usually don't get those memes
The entire USA vibe has changed in the last two weeks, from what we can see on every social media. What happened is an important historical events, it has repercussions on all aspects of USA society
OpenStars
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •True, and btw I don't mean that there is not good/great reasons for such even - people are DYING.
I was just pushing that thought since we were initially responding to:
It's creating an environment where people who can't handle the cultural shifts (e.g. not everyone is neurotypical) are having to heavily curate their experiences.
Blaze (he/him)
in reply to OpenStars • • •Non Americans already had to curate their experience for weeks before and during the US presidential election
OpenStars
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •Not everyone wants that, but excellent point about the fact that some do:-).
And there, as now, it would be nice to constrain things.
Though you mentioned the rather powerful counterargument earlier that this was a MAJOR event, and it's understandable that it's leaking.
zxqwas
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Weakness, If you're here for anything other than the narrow view.
Even if you're here for the the narrow view take a moment and consider if an echo chamber is good for you.
pseudo
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Lemminary
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •OpenStars
in reply to Lemminary • • •Okay so yeah for actual conservatives totally. The Alt-Right is never going to be convinced no matter how many "facts" you explain to them anyway.
But you are considered a right-winger too, as well as I, by the likes of the folks in hexbear and Lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. We don't view ourselves that way, but it's the truth: compared to the likes of the Alt-Left, we legit are more "right-wing" than they are. And for good reason: e.g. we may not appreciate them but we've never actually murdered our landlords.
Murvel
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •like this
granolabar likes this.
FeelzGoodMan420
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •granolabar
in reply to FeelzGoodMan420 • • •like this
Chozo likes this.
Chozo
in reply to granolabar • • •granolabar
in reply to Chozo • • •You took a bad position, I clarified why it was unfounded.
That's called a discussion. You are entitled to post your opinion, I am entitled to provide a rebuttal.
That's how discourse works.
Deceptichum
in reply to granolabar • • •Oh no, the poor right whingers aren’t being represented here.
Oh wait, good. Fuck ‘em.
granolabar
in reply to Deceptichum • • •They still have to suffer from shiti health insurance...
But sure let's make sure nobody but a good neo libs "allies" are permitted here champ
Deceptichum
in reply to granolabar • • •In your country sure.
And who the fuck wants neo libs here? Neo libs (and libs) are right wing ideologies.
OpenStars
in reply to granolabar • • •Totally. Maybe we should invent some kind of... oh I dunno, ideological purity test? Surely that would not eat our faces off, hrm? Surely we can exclude only "them", while keeping "us".
Smh, it's always the same. People don't even see it.
granolabar likes this.
lizard-socks
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Blaze (he/him)
in reply to lizard-socks • • •JackbyDev
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •OpenStars
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •I think it helps to place labels onto things... and then respect those labels.
Like porn: it can get someone literally fired if they chanced upon such at work - some corpos are just looking for any excuse to cut costs, especially a repeating salary one. But so long as it is labeled, and does not appear outside of bounds... then what is the harm? (more even, studies show that places that ban porn tend to have higher rates of sexualized crime i.e. rape, so the presence of porn literally seems to help society?)
And politics: so many of us here LOVE to discuss it! But what if someone had anxiety, and could not? Could they use something like hashtags, keywords, trigger warnings I dunno, and block out most of it, for the sake of their sanity? If not, then their only recourse would be to opt-out of the Fediverse entirely, thereby taking all of the content that they would have contributed with them...
Full disclosure of my own biases: this is why I am against places such as ChapoTrapHouse from being federated with most Lemmy instances (even as I support e.g. lemm.ee's de
... show moreI think it helps to place labels onto things... and then respect those labels.
Like porn: it can get someone literally fired if they chanced upon such at work - some corpos are just looking for any excuse to cut costs, especially a repeating salary one. But so long as it is labeled, and does not appear outside of bounds... then what is the harm? (more even, studies show that places that ban porn tend to have higher rates of sexualized crime i.e. rape, so the presence of porn literally seems to help society?)
And politics: so many of us here LOVE to discuss it! But what if someone had anxiety, and could not? Could they use something like hashtags, keywords, trigger warnings I dunno, and block out most of it, for the sake of their sanity? If not, then their only recourse would be to opt-out of the Fediverse entirely, thereby taking all of the content that they would have contributed with them...
Full disclosure of my own biases: this is why I am against places such as ChapoTrapHouse from being federated with most Lemmy instances (even as I support e.g. lemm.ee's desire to keep it) - it's not that I want it to "not exist" (I've enjoyed many of my own interactions there... though it is also simultaneously true that many users from hexbear [or their alts] act as toxic bullies, ignoring people's consent outside of those spaces, despite being told explicitly not to by their admins), so much as that I want it to be properly labeled & constrained, so that someone does not walk into it unawares, not realize what it is, and then leave the Fediverse entirely having been turned away from us due to their interactions with them.
Likewise much of the content on lemmy.ml is very much not only anti-capitalist, but anti-Western - the former I sympathize with, though the vehemence with which it is delivered and especially the latter will turn people away, as it definitely has me (especially when it abuses blatantly false tropes).
And that is the identical reason why we cannot federate with conservative spaces either, if we want to survive: it is not that we want them to not exist so much as we cannot host their content here, without making THAT action a part of our own identity. And to be clear, I don't mean content such as "God loves us, each & every one of us" (that's kinda an awesome thought, is it not, regardless of what we each personally believe?), but rather "I know I speak for [my specific version of a god] when I say that he (she? it? them? other?) hates some people, especially YOUR type in particular!"
But even if we took it as a given, purely for the sake of a hypothetical argument mind you, that we actually did want some type of space to not exist, what are we going to do about it - sabotage their servers? And after they spin up new ones, with better protections - then what? No, the real recourse (imho) is to simply leave them be, yet not choose to federate their content here. We all were young & naive once too - they may grow given time, or not, but that's their business, and all we can and should (and actually MUST) control is ours.
In all of the above cases - including the pornography example - it is not what the content is (or sometimes not just that), so much as the unfriendliness of it appearing outside of bounds, causing legitimate pain and harm when it is exposed to people.
I think the way to maximize utility is to increase diversity by increasing welcomingness. Sorta like how Linux does not push people into any one distro, or window manager, or anything at all - we each are free to pursue our own paths. That's fucking awesome!
Lest anything think that I've refused to answer the question: it is both. Our (future) political diversity can both be a wedge driven between us - if we allow that to happen naturally - or else a source of strength, e.g. to allow a centrist person to post content unrelated to their political beliefs (woodworking? a game community?), so long as they are respectful of other people's beliefs in the process. We don't all have to like one another, just get along. In diversity we find strength... or we could, if we did it right, i.e. if only the ones offered in good faith were allowed to stay while all others given the boot, and even then they need to remain within their allotted lanes.
Preemptively to the people who will scroll to the bottom of this, see me saying that diversity is a strength, and comment or just downvote and move on without bothering to read the rest: fuck you. But to anyone willing to offer a good-faith critique: I am listening.
TriflingToad
in reply to OpenStars • • •We need a political tag like the NSFW tag
Blaze (he/him)
in reply to TriflingToad • • •Feathercrown
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •LovableSidekick
in reply to Feathercrown • • •Feathercrown
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •LovableSidekick
in reply to Feathercrown • • •Feathercrown
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •LovableSidekick
in reply to Feathercrown • • •Feathercrown
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •Are you familiar with the nazi bar quote? I was referencing that phenomenon:
LovableSidekick
in reply to Feathercrown • • •Feathercrown
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to Feathercrown • • •It's not too far off already, considering .ml, grad, and hexbear's propensity to advocate for violence against others for being "liberals."
Basically it's already a nazi bar with some red paint and a star on the door. The people who I told about lemmy all left pretty quick because of it and I've stopped recommending it to people entirely.
Blaze (he/him)
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •This post could interest you: lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/32469271
Long story short, discuss.online defederated hexbear recently, making it a potential recommendation for new joiners (they also block lemmygrad)
lemmy.cafe/ blocks ml too, but they have the 0.19.7 pictures bug. Once they fix that, they could become another go-to recommendation for new joiners.
ArcaneSlime
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •Blaze (he/him)
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •I think at this moment people can live without .ml if they're not into tech. Sure, !privacy@lemmy.ml and !firefox@lemmy.ml are the most active in their fields, but the non-tech user probably doesn't care. And alternatives like !linux@programming.dev are getting more and more active
Glad that you like that effort!
ArcaneSlime
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •That may be true tbh, I'm more techy so I can't yet but maybe for someone who isn't they could.
Keep at it for sure! If this place really ends up thriving and getting bigger for niche interests and stuff it's in no small part because of your efforts to do so! I genuinely appreciate it, even for stuff I'm not personally interested in.
OpenStars
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •PieFed allows you to block all users from an instance of your choice without needing admin approval. The Lemmy apps Sync and Connect do also. So I've already managed to defederate from Lemmy.ml personally, aside from lemmy.cafe, dubvee.org, or quokk.au that have all done that at the admin level.
Although it sounds like you meant more that so many communities are still on that instance - which is fine - and don't have alternatives yet elsewhere, which is not fine. If you can, perhaps consider making just one and modding it to help it grow. It won't fix everything but it will help, and if 9 other people did likewise then that's 10 communities that people would not have had access to without those group efforts:-).
Little by little, I think that we don't have to consider places such as hexbear.net as part of "us" anymore. Perhaps it will take the further development of Mbin, PieFed, and Sublinks to accomplish that for Lemmy.ml. Otherwise we simply will progressively give up while the place dies slowly around us, as people leave and new ones refuse to join.
Deceptichum
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •Huge strength.
The alternative is Reddit or 4Chan if you want centrist or right wing takes. I know which of the 3 platforms I want.
Seeing this place run by individuals with a commitment to creating a better social environment is also a huge plus. You wouldn’t get that under a non-leftist platform.
nasi_goreng
in reply to Deceptichum • • •"Left" or "Right" grouping is Western centric tho.
From my perspective as Indonesian, it's weird that Westerner lump politics into separate group instead working together for a solution that caters to everyone.
queermunist she/her
in reply to nasi_goreng • • •nasi_goreng
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •I still don't get actual "left" and "right" definition by Westerner.
For example, people that support native people to be protected from encrouchment of their forest, as well as unmitigated immigration that will drive out them will considered both "left" and "right" side from Westerner.
Some Westerner also often assume their solution of problem is "the best" while all I can see is further division of society.
Please elaborate.
hono4kami
in reply to nasi_goreng • • •queermunist she/her
in reply to nasi_goreng • • •The vast majority of Westerners don't even really know what "left" or "right" mean. It's going to be really confusing to rely on Westerners to self-identify their political beliefs, because every liberal seems to think they're a leftist.
It helps if we frame this in a context of imperialism and colonialism.
A refugee from Syria moving into Greece isn't encroaching on anyone's forests. That stands in stark contrast with a multinational corporation coming to DRC, clear cutting the forest, strip mining the mountains, poisoning the water, and paying pennies for labor.
... show moreThe vast majority of Westerners don't even really know what "left" or "right" mean. It's going to be really confusing to rely on Westerners to self-identify their political beliefs, because every liberal seems to think they're a leftist.
It helps if we frame this in a context of imperialism and colonialism.
A refugee from Syria moving into Greece isn't encroaching on anyone's forests. That stands in stark contrast with a multinational corporation coming to DRC, clear cutting the forest, strip mining the mountains, poisoning the water, and paying pennies for labor.
Absolutely. Any leftist in the West needs to spend their whole life unlearning their chauvinism.
nasi_goreng
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •The thing is, sometimes the immigrant are not corporate. They're just groups of average people that cut all the protected forest to make a new home and uncontrolled killing of animals.
They don't respect local rules at all.
This don't really happen in the West, but it can happen in several parts of Asia or Africa.
That's why ethnocentrism ended prevalent in these area.
queermunist she/her
in reply to nasi_goreng • • •Deceptichum
in reply to nasi_goreng • • •So you would say PDIP and Gerindra both represent the same thing?
And I know for a fact you’se spent most of the mid 20th century killing “communists” in your borders. So there certainly was a left in Indonesia.
nasi_goreng
in reply to Deceptichum • • •LovableSidekick
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •"For example, in terms of attracting new users" - meaning that's the whole point of the question, so I'll address that.
Lemmy isn't a corporation and doesn't have to think like one. Market share means nothing. The goal is a high-quality app that does what its users want. If a majority of those users have a similar range of political views, that's just how it works out. There's nothing stopping ultra-conservatives from spinning up Lemmy instances if they want, blocking communities whose overall personality they don't like, and banning users they don't like. If this balkanizes the lemmy userverse, I don't see that as an issue.
OpenStars
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •Conversely though: you are considered a right-winger by some (Lemmy.World = neoliberal bastion of not extreme enough Leftists). (And to be extra clear: me as well:-)
I agree that we must exclude trolling behaviors and those who refuse to not do them, but not bc of their beliefs and rather bc of their intolerance to anyone who disagrees. But by the same token, we must not become them in the process.
This would exclude both the Alt-Right, as well as the Alt-Left, leaving us centrists in the middle. And a week ago I would have added: "who don't want to violently overthrow all of society", although now I'm not so sure that a goodly fraction of Lemmy agrees with that anymore.
LovableSidekick
in reply to OpenStars • • •OpenStars
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •Exactly what I'm saying. One mark of an extremist is often a kind of moral purity test of their ideology. I too was shocked to find out that I am considered "right-wing", by the extremist left on places such as Lemmygrad.ml, hexbear.net, and lemmy.ml. The latter is federated with by almost everyone, and they will call you and me as "right-wing".
Now whether that's "true" or not... well actually, it is though - if you do not approve of actually irl really murdering your landlord, then you are "right-wing", in comparison to them. Then again, they also say that they love North Korea - but how many of them have actually picked up and moved there, hrm? 🤣
So I think we are "centrists", on the global scale. To the left of the Alt-Right, and to the right of the Alt-Left. My language may be odd though.
To people whose purview pertains to the set of "alternative facts", whether left or right wing, I simply cannot converse - no matter how hard I've tried. However to centrists I seem to have little to no trouble making myself understood, wi
... show moreExactly what I'm saying. One mark of an extremist is often a kind of moral purity test of their ideology. I too was shocked to find out that I am considered "right-wing", by the extremist left on places such as Lemmygrad.ml, hexbear.net, and lemmy.ml. The latter is federated with by almost everyone, and they will call you and me as "right-wing".
Now whether that's "true" or not... well actually, it is though - if you do not approve of actually irl really murdering your landlord, then you are "right-wing", in comparison to them. Then again, they also say that they love North Korea - but how many of them have actually picked up and moved there, hrm? 🤣
So I think we are "centrists", on the global scale. To the left of the Alt-Right, and to the right of the Alt-Left. My language may be odd though.
To people whose purview pertains to the set of "alternative facts", whether left or right wing, I simply cannot converse - no matter how hard I've tried. However to centrists I seem to have little to no trouble making myself understood, with only the slightest efforts? i.e., anyone at all acting in good faith I can outright enjoy discourse with, while anyone acting in bad faith I cannot.
So that is my criteria: it has nothing whatsoever to do with "beliefs", political or religious or cultural or otherwise, and everything to do with attitude, particularly the willingness to converse with compassion or at the very minimum tolerance to others' POV.
Does that make sense?
LovableSidekick
in reply to OpenStars • • •OpenStars
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •This essay describes the transition as we can readily observe it happening not just in social media on the internet but also in movies & TV & every other aspect of modern life as well. We see sitting members of Congress use the same principles: if you can do something in 5 seconds, and then move on to the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and so on, then spending 5 hours let alone 5 days, weeks, months, or years on a project becomes downright "bad". The latter obviously not meaning in an objective sense but rather a return-on-investment (ROI) calculation, if maximizing profits (or upvote karma or whatever) is one's goal - and for a Congressperson, that very much is their job, to maximize votes or at least pass the threshold to ensure safe re-elections, then switch to expending that political capital to enrich one's own pockets (oh uh... and ~~help people~~ no, enrich one's own pockets exclusively, appar
... show moreThis essay describes the transition as we can readily observe it happening not just in social media on the internet but also in movies & TV & every other aspect of modern life as well. We see sitting members of Congress use the same principles: if you can do something in 5 seconds, and then move on to the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and so on, then spending 5 hours let alone 5 days, weeks, months, or years on a project becomes downright "bad". The latter obviously not meaning in an objective sense but rather a return-on-investment (ROI) calculation, if maximizing profits (or upvote karma or whatever) is one's goal - and for a Congressperson, that very much is their job, to maximize votes or at least pass the threshold to ensure safe re-elections, then switch to expending that political capital to enrich one's own pockets (oh uh... and ~~help people~~ no, enrich one's own pockets exclusively, apparently, more's the pity).
Aside from that, the paradox of intolerance really is a fundamental principle of the universe: imagine that you had a pen full of a thousand sheep, and you let in one wolf - let's even say to be kind, b/c he'll die if you do not? The next day you somehow only have 999 sheep... and you let in 2 more wolves. The next day you have 996 sheep, and you let in 3 more wolves, and so on. It won't be long before you have no sheep and only wolves left. B-b-but, they PROMISED me that they'd behave!? They PROMISED me that they wouldn't eat MY ~~face off~~ sheep!?!? We ignore this at our peril. You can do the experiment for yourself: go to Lemmy.ml without being logged into an account and just going through the first couple of pages, count the number of posts that make fun of the Western world - especially the EU and even more especially in particular the USA - or perhaps it's easier to count those that don't? (granted, there's a bunch of purely-Linux ones that do not, and sometimes you'd need to visit the post to read the comments rather than see it instantly from the title) Like here's an example that I saw just prior to the recent USA elections:
B-b-bUt BoTh SiDeS eQuAl ThO?! Except... they are not though? So many Muslim leaders in America told their followers to vote for Harris - b/c while what Biden did was not great, it will be as nothing compared to what Trump will do - although many waited until sth like 3 days before the election, hoping to wrangle every last ounce of possible concession out of the deal, though it may have been too late, b/c people simply don't follow the news all that quickly (it would seem). In fairness, there were many issues irt that election, and this was only one of them. It does not change how the Alt-Left tries to put a "spin" that is hyperbolic, false, and most relevant: misleading to the point of being actually disinformation rather than merely misinformation. It is so easy to prop up such a strawman: "none such exist" as want to stop the chaos? Bitch, we ALL want to stop it though?! Well, liberals do, the conservatives want to fucking JOIN in making it happen FASTER! Also, it's not like Russia actively doing genocide in Ukraine, or China to the Uyghurs, etc. (oh wait...), so I guess somehow it's "better" to just put Trump in where he will do as he already said: write a blank check for Israel to do whatever they want from now on, including even more genocide. You know, b/c BoTh SiDeS eQuAl, and b/c if someone says it on the internet, then it MUST be true I guess?!
So yeah, according to these people, we are "right-wingers". B/c people in the USA voting for Kamala Harris rather than voting for Donald Trump and then violently overthrowing all of society is... "right-wing"... somehow?
I will take every last ounce of diversity, from someone arguing in good faith. But I will take none from someone arguing in bad faith. Even if they call me a Nazi, or a coward, or whatever they want to call me - those manipulation tactics don't matter, what matters is what I choose to do in response.
LovableSidekick
in reply to OpenStars • • •OpenStars
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •NOW you understand! 😜
Those kinds of messages seem to have worked - if not here bc we're so tiny then at least overall. After all, we collectively decided together that BoTh SiDeS sAmE tHo and therefore elected Trump who ofc "is the same as Harris would have been irt the Gaza situation" (except not, if facts mattered, but since they don't... then sure).
LovableSidekick
in reply to OpenStars • • •OpenStars
in reply to LovableSidekick • • •LovableSidekick
in reply to OpenStars • • •timestatic
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •I think its one of the reasons reddit will never reach the mainstream like reddit. For one people find it confusing to find a community which I disagree with, you just need to take a slight effort to understand that you have a choice of community and in return you get great freedom. Since its mostly for more techies I and its overwhelmingly like left, people with moderate right views will feel like they're completely out of place.
Im also sad that many of the bigger communities like ml have unhinged mods that ban for anyone disagreeing with them. For example some calls for violence being overwhelmingly onesided on here made me feel sick at times. But I don't feel like sparking that debate over here.
Blaze (he/him)
in reply to timestatic • • •For people interested on that topic, !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works is a dedicated community
OpenStars
in reply to timestatic • • •Blaze (he/him)
in reply to OpenStars • • •I've told people I use Lemmy several times, I only got neutral or positive reactions.
Lemmy is quite obscure, so most of the people have no idea what it is.
OpenStars
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •The top Google hit to an instance isn't "here" but rather Lemmy.ml (DuckDuckGo chooses Lemmy.World, but as long as we are talking normies here...). Lemmy.ml's default method of showing posts is Local, rather than All. Combined, this means that a mainstream normal person will see first primarily the Alt-Left propaganda machine pushing for the violent overthrow of capitalism and Western society, and then will NOT see so much of all the cute cartoons and Star Trek memes and such. Especially prior to the USA election, there was very much an obvious bias promoting the idea that BoTh SiDeS sAmE.
Your approach used on Reddit of pointing to a highly specific instance recommendation, especially one that has defederated from Lemmy.ml, is carefully crafted to avoid the scenario I outlined above from happening. And irl it's helpful to do the same: don't say that you use "Lemmy", bc that has a very pronounced reputation.
Blaze (he/him)
in reply to OpenStars • • •People really don't know about it. Maybe it's my environment, but at this point I would almost be happy if people could talk to me negatively about Lemmy rather than just no know what it is
OpenStars
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to crimeschneck∈🇩🇪⊂🇪🇺 • • •LovableSidekick
in reply to Cowbee [he/they] • • •