Why are people preferring Blue Sky over Mastodon?
Mastodon has been around since 2016 and has 804k MAU.
The platform has 57 third party apps.
The platform is decentralized and has community ran servers.
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β§
Mastodon has been around since 2016 and has 804k MAU.
The platform has 57 third party apps.
The platform is decentralized and has community ran servers.
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reshared this
hendrik
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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Baessito (casa nova) π§π·π΅πΈ
in reply to hendrik • • •do they advertise? Honest question
@fediverse @Sunshine
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hendrik
in reply to Baessito (casa nova) π§π·π΅πΈ • • •like this
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noodlejetski
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •it's been better marketed, and people struggle with the concept of federation and picking a server. and I guess the invite-only, artificial exclusivity strat has actually paid off for them initially, unlike for Google+.
also, a matter of culture. I've seen many newcomers complain about how some long time users act as HOA, reminding everyone to act according to the long-standing rules. many people of colour have experience many forms of racist behaviour, too, which has driven some communities away.
oh, and the federation/defederation business sometimes gets way too messy, which [cynic mode on] makes it difficult for people who want their Personal Brandβ’ to gain as many followers as possible over the entire network.
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moe90
in reply to noodlejetski • • •like this
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noodlejetski
in reply to moe90 • • •moe90
in reply to noodlejetski • • •like this
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noodlejetski
in reply to moe90 • • •again, if the person who is making the post doesn't change the setting, it won't get filtered. if they type a message in German but the post's language option is set to English (which I think is the default on some major instances), it won't get filtered out.
you can usually check what their post's setting is by starting writing a reply to them, as the language option of your post will switch to the one they post in.
moe90
in reply to noodlejetski • • •like this
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brbposting
in reply to moe90 • • •TexasDrunk
in reply to noodlejetski • • •This is a HUGE reason. I didn't know when I first signed up for Lemmy that I was on what is essentially a tankie instance. I didn't know when I signed up for Pixelfed that I wasn't going to be able to see shit because the first server I signed up for wasn't really federated with anyone and I've mostly given up on it. I still can't see a bunch of stuff on Mastodon without switching through several accounts with no rhyme or reason.
I've said before that I obviously like it here because I'm using the services, but it's not easy. Most people don't know about the fediverse, and most of those that do want to be passive about maintaining their social media. Most of the fediverse is built for nerds.
xigoi
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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in reply to BruisedMoose • • •djidane535
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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Ada
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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Sentient Loom
in reply to Ada • • •like this
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flamingos-cant
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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snooggums
in reply to DaseinPickle • • •FlashMobOfOne
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I can only assume BlueSky feels more familiar.
Mastodon requires a bit of effort, lacking an algorithm to drive content toward users, so you have to do a bit more yourself.
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Intergalactic
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Theyβre venture funded by a crypto company.
The signs of imminent disaster.
Mastodon is clearly the correct choice.
Intergalactic
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I wrote an article on this last night.
aidanraymond.medium.com/why-blβ¦
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Communist
in reply to Intergalactic • • •Since bluesky is mit licensed, what's to stop a fork if something goes wrong?
what's to stop a activitypub and atproto compatibility?
grimer
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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Berin
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •We've had this exact conversation in this community two months ago already, in case you want to back read the comments from back then. Nothing significant has changed
To paraphrase my opinion from back then:
- Easier onboarding, and a familiar, easier UX
- customizable feeds you can subscribe to + starterpacks instantly give you full timelines and people to follow (and followers, if you're in many starter packs)
- better discoverability, and therefore higher engagement
- stacking moderation and excellent security features (e.g. detachable quote boosts, "the nuclear block")
- many users who tried Mastodon first had bad experiences with "HOA"-like behavior and over-enthusiastic mods
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cholesterol
in reply to Berin • • •like this
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S_H_K
in reply to cholesterol • • •like this
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Berin
in reply to S_H_K • • •like this
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Kichae
in reply to Berin • • •confluence
in reply to Berin • • •Personally, I'm excited there's a decentralized option that's super popular. Yes, relatively very few run their own PDS, but if the main bsky instance becomes a problem for anyone, people can easily migrate.
It's not just data ownership either; The AT protocol supports community-built algorithms, relays, and app views.
SorteKanin
in reply to confluence • • •Kichae
in reply to confluence • • •Rentlar
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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TimewornTraveler
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Adam
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I'm dabbling in Bluesky atm. Having run my own Masto server for over a year at this point. Here's things I've found that Bluesky does just plain better - mostly cause it's not beholden to the whims of the ActivityPub protocol.
- Shows me all replies to any post I happen to come across.
- Lets me see all posts about things I happen to search/look for, including hashtags.
- I don't have to worry about being unable to see content I haven't personally blocked (not so much of an issue on a small/single server like mine though).
- I can repost things (not actually too bothered with this one but many people want it).
- I can set per post reply permissions to a very granular level (no-one, mentioned, followers, specific followers)
- It handles video in a way that works i.e. I can post them, and people can watch them with minimal buffering/waiting.
- Gives me access to community built collections/algorithms that expose the content I want to see.
- It defaults to providing an additional feed driven by what the peo
... show moreI'm dabbling in Bluesky atm. Having run my own Masto server for over a year at this point. Here's things I've found that Bluesky does just plain better - mostly cause it's not beholden to the whims of the ActivityPub protocol.
The first two are huge on a small/single user server. By default we get nothing, following a single account will get us the content of just that account and the replies that they happen to reply to. A post may get 200 replies, but unless I go looking on the original server I will see a fraction of that. Technical solutions exist to help with this but the Fediverse's penchant for privacy and control (quite rightly) limits the effectiveness (Fedifetcher, GetMoarFedi).
3 is something most people won't think about. But if they become aware they're not seeing something they thought they'd be able to they then have to deep dive into who's defederating who and why.
Most all the other points just make the whole thing a much more seamless experience for your average user. Bootstrapping a list of people to follow on a small server is hard (I'd absolutely recommend creating a Fediverse account somewhere large first to build up some sort of list before migrating)
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SuperSleuth
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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oxjox
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Are you asking about "people" or "nerds"? People prefer Bluesky due to its simplicity and momentum. There are more popular outlets using it. If you're assuming that People would prefer the complexity of the Fediverse and instances, if you think People know what a decentralized community run server is, you're a "nerd" (for lack of a better term, I'm sorry).
The battle has always been the same: Windows v. Apple, Android v. iOS, SMS Twitter v. App Twitter. Some people prefer flexibility and investing time in making things work the way they want (Nerds). Some people want an out of the box product that's well designed and efficient (People).
Fifty Seven Third Party Apps is not a selling point - that's called anxiety inducing fragmentation. Some people want to walk down the grocery store aisle and choose between 57 options for toilet paper and some people just want "good", "better", "b
... show moreAre you asking about "people" or "nerds"? People prefer Bluesky due to its simplicity and momentum. There are more popular outlets using it. If you're assuming that People would prefer the complexity of the Fediverse and instances, if you think People know what a decentralized community run server is, you're a "nerd" (for lack of a better term, I'm sorry).
The battle has always been the same: Windows v. Apple, Android v. iOS, SMS Twitter v. App Twitter. Some people prefer flexibility and investing time in making things work the way they want (Nerds). Some people want an out of the box product that's well designed and efficient (People).
Fifty Seven Third Party Apps is not a selling point - that's called anxiety inducing fragmentation. Some people want to walk down the grocery store aisle and choose between 57 options for toilet paper and some people just want "good", "better", "best". The reality is that most people just want to be told what to do. They have too much shit going on in their lives to care about "decentralization".
Mastodon will never challenge well financed closed or semi-open platforms. As it's designed, it's apparent it never intended to. It will continue to grow at a slow rate as an alternative. Hopefully, the fediverse is realized and you can choose to host your own server and gain access to other social platforms.
The reality is that this stuff costs money. In the near future, you'll have the same three choices with social media as we do with other services: ad-subsidized, subscription, self-hosted. Anything with ads is going to have an algorithm. Anything with a subscription is going to have a board of directors. Selfhosting comes with a steep learning curve.
timconspicuous
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Unpopular opinion here, but: as opposed to other twitter clones like Hive Social and such, that also look sleek and are simple, but didn't go anywhere, Bluesky did manage to attract a sizeable crowd of creative and talented open source indie devs that are passionate about it and build cool stuff on atproto. Whether it's custom feeds or star sign labelers or alternative clients that add more features or entirely new appviews like the oekaki board PinkSea, you get the feeling it is a pretty vibrant ecosystem and this has sustained it all these months.
While this is true for the Fediverse as well, I think it's fair to say that there have been rumblings here about lack of direction and proper stewardship of the Fediverse and if you want this place to succeed you can't just sweep it under the rug, shrug your shoulders and say "well, people who pick Bluesky over Mastodon are just stupid".
Nate
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • •I've shared my thoughts a couple times in similar threads 1 and 2, but to summarize:
One reason is because I think other protocols have some advantages. AT is better end user ease of use wise, and plans to let you control your account via a keypair (already possible with your own PDS). Nostr is more heavily decentralized and considerably more flexible than the other two. That can siphon off existing users or have new users drawn to those spaces. Not to say that ActivityPub doesn't also have its own advantages too, but everybody has different preferences and there's now more choice.
There's also some Activity Pub specific toxicity issues. Too aggressive defederation leads to a point where you can't communicate with most people, and there's some opinions in the space that have turned some people away.
But of course things go up and down, and are never a strait line. I'm guessing
... show moreI've shared my thoughts a couple times in similar threads 1 and 2, but to summarize:
One reason is because I think other protocols have some advantages. AT is better end user ease of use wise, and plans to let you control your account via a keypair (already possible with your own PDS). Nostr is more heavily decentralized and considerably more flexible than the other two. That can siphon off existing users or have new users drawn to those spaces. Not to say that ActivityPub doesn't also have its own advantages too, but everybody has different preferences and there's now more choice.
There's also some Activity Pub specific toxicity issues. Too aggressive defederation leads to a point where you can't communicate with most people, and there's some opinions in the space that have turned some people away.
But of course things go up and down, and are never a strait line. I'm guessing all three big protocols will continue to grow, and as they get more interconnected everybody wins, and even if Activity Pub has hit a slump the ecosystem of people you can talk to using it has grown 10x+.
Outside if summarizing my previous takes, there have been some new(ish) things I've seen that don't quite sit right. Things from the top down like the social web director refusing to go to conferences that people from other protocols will be present and encouraging people to not even talk about other protocols. Or - anicdotally - seeing random users happy that the influxes are going to others because they don't want 'normies' on Activity Pub or declaring anybody still using Twitter/X a Nazi sympathizer if not an outright Nazi. If the Activity Pub scene is getting really protectionist it could start also having a negative effect.
Again, overall I expect it to continue trending upwards, and there's a plethora of factors that are unrelated to anything negative regarding Activity Pub's community, but the above (and previous two posts) are the stuff I figured worth bringing up and potentially factors in why ActivityPub has seen weaker adoption compared to the other two big ones more recently.
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Today
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Can you guys help explain it to someone completely inexperienced?
I had Twitter but only used it for following music venues to see upcoming events and bars for happy hour updates. I have a Mastodon account but only played with it for a few minutes because i didn't really get it. I don't understand following a person. What can one person have to say that i would care enough about to download an app. What am i missing?
HobbitFoot
in reply to Today • • •Sentient Loom
in reply to Today • • •Imagine if there were two twitters, and you only sign up for one but you can read and comment on posts for both.
Now imagine if anybody can install their own Twitter, and anybody else can sign up on either one, and they can all talk to each other like that.
Today
in reply to Sentient Loom • • •glimse
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I've got an idea as to why.
I went to mastodon.social and see a Linux meme, some heavy political commentary, and a bunch of posts about mastodon being better than Twitter.
I then went to bluesky.app and see some political riffing, cute animals, a comic, some jokes, a company, and even Don Lemon.
The average person checking them both out for the first time, mastodon is nerd shit and Bluesky is normal shit.
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unconfirmedsourcesDOTgov
in reply to glimse • • •like this
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Default_Defect
in reply to glimse • • •Lightsong
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •People like simple and easy to use.
Bluesky got that, fediverse in general don't have that.
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Communist
in reply to Lightsong • • •Lightsong
in reply to Communist • • •Someplaceunknown likes this.
Sentient Loom
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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BT_7274
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •You have to understand we are not normal users. Anyone even remotely interested in federated software are not normal users.
Bluesky may not have 57 third party apps and thatβs why people are flocking to it. Itβs easy. The signup process through the app involved no selecting of servers, no understanding of what it actually is under the hood, and users are greeted by a default algorithm that feels very much like old Twitter before Musk.
Basically, regular users do not care about the fediverse and just want a competent and polished app and site experience.
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Optional
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Because no one made a droolproof guide to migrating to Mastodon and Bluesky put money into it.
For people who can't remember their password, it's preferable.
captainastronaut
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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ikidd
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •hamFoilHat
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I have a friend who has had a mastodon instance since it was gnu social, and there are two reasons I stopped using it.
First, the UI sucks. He installed 3 or 4 different skins and they were all barely usable. I don't want or need something flashy, xfce is my favorite windows manager, but it needs to at least work and not be confusing.
Second, the people suck. It went from being okay to by the time I left I don't think I was seeing any exchanges that didn't have antisemitism or racism.
Sergebr
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •α΄α΄α΄α΄Κα΄Κ εΈ
in reply to Sergebr • • •TheFeatureCreature
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Average users do not even remotely care about federated software and/or decentralisation. That is techno-babble to them and their eyes will glaze over if you try to market that to them.
That being said: Mastodon does a shit job at explaining how it works, how to use it, and what its advantages are. The Joinmastodon landing page just assumes you already know how a fair bit about instances work and what federated software is and does a very poor job explaining it. And even then, most users won't care either way. They just want to click a Join button and be done.
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Stalinwolf
in reply to TheFeatureCreature • • •That's exactly what drove me into seeking out Lemmy instead. I hopped on Mastodon and it made me feel like I was being coralled into following some niche hobby forum exclusively, and I wasn't into that. It didn't explain that the instance itself was largely irrelevant and that the rest of the platform would open up to me after choosing one.
Lemmy still had a learning curve, but having experience with reddit I was able to pick it up easily enough.
Kecessa
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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Communist
in reply to Kecessa • • •Someplaceunknown likes this.
Kecessa
in reply to Communist • • •Someplaceunknown likes this.
_pi
in reply to Communist • • •This practically means nothing tbh. Social networks when they gain economies of scale due to the network effect will effectively shed all the pretense of open source and open platform etc.
We've seen it with Facebook, Google, etc, during the 2010's with closing of chat standards and destruction of XMPP. Reddit 3rd Party API access is another example of this. We'll see it again.
Communist
in reply to _pi • • •GHiLA
in reply to Kecessa • • •I don't get the rush or the need.
Everything trickles down here anyway. If you're ONLY on Lemmy and Mastodon, you're still getting way more actual news than the average joe. Popular, shmopular.
I'm trying to remember a time in the last thirty years where something becoming popular made it better. It's usually the opposite.
TORFdot0
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •57 different 3rd party apps is probably a good start. Mastodon has to be easy to on-board and it isnβt for someone with no technical understanding what domains, servers or instances are. To that group Bluesky makes sense. You are signing up for Bluesky. Try to onboard that group to mastodon and they donβt understand if they are on mastodon.social or mastodon.world or any other instance.
Why would they be on one of those fringe services with less users than bluesky? Thatβs what a non expert understands
L0rdMathias
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •What is with all these wall of text answers guys?
Twitter people like Twitter and Twitter man for making it.
Twitter now not Twitter is now X and no more Twitter man.
Twitter people not like TeslaSpace man.
Twitter man make BlueSky.
No elephant needed to make this story work. Remember: twitter brain cannot handle too many characters.
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Chef_Boyardee
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •It's because of the connotation with an overrated metal band of the same name.
/s for the overly serious
Leraje
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •The people leaving Twitter right now want Twitter minus Elon. That's Bluesky. They've heard a couple of their Twitter follows mention it and they've gone to their app store where they find an app called Bluesky, install it and easily join and start using it. Once they do they are finding it pretty straightforward to find people they used to follow on Twitter.
That's all people want.
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maplebar
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •You want the bullshit "Mastodon is too complicated and hard to use!" answer or the real answer?
BlueSky has rich people behind it.
_pi
in reply to maplebar • • •They're the same answer.
You need money to market applications to users. Bluesky is sold the same way that Twitter is, your favorite moron celebrity might hit like or retweet on your stuff.
maplebar
in reply to _pi • • •They aren't really the same answer.
People suggest that Mastodon is too complicated for the average knuckle-dragging moron to use (and it might be, but frankly I consider that a pro, not a con) because it has "servers", as if the entire point of the internet wasn't to have a global network of communication across a multitude of clients and servers. Do these same people think the concept of websites and email are also too complex for the regular person? Maybe... But again, if the regular person is that fucking dumb do we really want have them in our community at all?
What's more, BlueSky is supposedly federated (or "will be"(tm)), and as such it'll have to deal with all of the same challenges around federation that Mastodon deals with, and people are kidding themselves if they think otherwise.
Otherwise I agree with your last sentence. Social media is about money and fame, first and foremost. The average person will always go where the most money and fame are concentrated.
ArcaneSlime
in reply to maplebar • • •Tbf the internet is entirely comprised of like 6 websites if you ask the average Joe, and I'm damn inclined to agree as someone who remembers webrings fondly and misses geocities (it's like the bell curve meme lol, and btw yes I know about neocities I'm just sleeping on it).
But I agree, if they can email they can mastodon, it's the same shit.
ObstreperousCanadian
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •It's just easier. I have both but I almost never use Mastodon anymore. Federation there doesn't seem to work right. I didn't know what an instance was so I joined mastodon.social. Finding and following people in the app doesn't always seem to work right if they're on another instance. Doing it in a browser is even more painful.
The people I liked to follow and interact with on X, many tried Mastodon and abandoned it, and many more are now on Bluesky. This creates momentum to "follow the crowd" as it were.
Additionally, you only have one chance to make a first impression. A lot of us tried Mastodon earlier and it wasn't ready. Bluesky started as invite-only, which drummed up interest before catching this zeitgeist of people leaving X.
Lastly, and maybe it's just me, but the font sizing on the official Mastodon app on Android is generally too small and can't be changed. Bluesky allows me to change it and make it more comfortable to use.
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ArcaneSlime
in reply to ObstreperousCanadian • • •Draedron
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •like this
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Psythik
in reply to Draedron • • •This exactly. I didn't join Lemmy for a long time, because I would search for "Lemmy", get confused when I see a page asking me to "pick an instance" instead of seeing a front page, and then leave because I thought that they were all independent from each other.
It wasn't until reddit killed my favorite app that I finally decided to put in the effort to figure it out.
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confluence
in reply to Draedron • • •58008
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •It's the path of least resistance to achieve Musklessness. The second two of the positives you listed are actually negatives to the average Joe. Choice paralysis, overwhelming number of apps and servers, these are things that put people off even trying, especially if there are easier-to-use alternatives that are familiar and instant.
Mastodon is great, but it's not quite there yet in terms of convenience. Too much copying and pasting and clicking through to different instances in order to read old posts etc. It needs to be more cohesive in a way that doesn't require constantly leaving your timeline or going into the settings.
It's also the case that the Twitter diaspora who are famous tend to choose BlueSky, and that brings a lot of people along with them.
And it's also the case that Mastodon doesn't have much of a marketing campaign outside of word-of-mouth, whereas BlueSky does.
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Nadru
in reply to 58008 • • •lunarul
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •This article gives a good view from an average user's perspective.
zdnet.com/article/i-tried-replβ¦
For most people that's a complication, not a bonus.
Buelldozer
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •demizerone
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Konomi
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Bilb!
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •People want a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. They want Twitter without Musk.
Bluesky is a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. It is Twitter without Musk.
It looks exactly like Twitter, it feels exactly like Twitter (both the Web interface and the official app), and it's for tech-illiterate dumb-dumbs.
Only recently has an instance selector been added to the sign-up process of the official app, but Bluesky still markets itself to its users as the self-same kind of centralised monolithic silo as Twitter and Facebook.
Mastodon has a vastly different UI and UX from immediate pre-Musk Twitter, but people don't want to learn anything new. And truth be told, I've read from Misskey/Forkey users that Misskey and the Forkeys actually have an easier-to-use Web UI than Mastodon.
Also, Mastodon advertises the fact that it's decentralised with lots of instances to choose from, even though the gGmbH would rather want everyone to be on mastodon.social. This freaks people out.
Joining Mastodon is act
... show morePeople want a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. They want Twitter without Musk.
Bluesky is a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. It is Twitter without Musk.
It looks exactly like Twitter, it feels exactly like Twitter (both the Web interface and the official app), and it's for tech-illiterate dumb-dumbs.
Only recently has an instance selector been added to the sign-up process of the official app, but Bluesky still markets itself to its users as the self-same kind of centralised monolithic silo as Twitter and Facebook.
Mastodon has a vastly different UI and UX from immediate pre-Musk Twitter, but people don't want to learn anything new. And truth be told, I've read from Misskey/Forkey users that Misskey and the Forkeys actually have an easier-to-use Web UI than Mastodon.
Also, Mastodon advertises the fact that it's decentralised with lots of instances to choose from, even though the gGmbH would rather want everyone to be on mastodon.social. This freaks people out.
Joining Mastodon is actually no more difficult than joining Bluesky in practice because the official app railroads everyone to mastodon.social without forcing them. But people won't know until they've actually installed and opened that app.
The only reason why Mastodon grew so quickly to such an enormous size in late 2022 was because it was the only alternative to Twitter that anyone knew, including those who pulled Twitter users onto Mastodon. The only other advantage it had over anything else was that, unlike Twitter, it didn't have Musk and uncontained droves of Nazis. Had people been sent to Akkoma or Calckey instead of Mastodon, it would have exploded the same.
Inb4 "How can people use e-mail then?" That's because everyone's on Gmail, and many think e-mail is a proprietary Google product.
joel_feila
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Well lots of offoces used Microsoft for email and out sode i workd email is password reset, receipts, and new account confirmation. When the last i sent and email that wasn't work or those things? About 8 years ago.
But yes tryings to explain instance and federation to a regular user is only going to confuse them. We need mastodon to be a sample as login and use. If we bring up a single tecnical term we lose people.
Kichae
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •The *keys have a UI that has a similar design language to Twitter, but a fairly different layout. I think it's close enough that people would recognize it as "Twitter, but different", vs Mastodon's "Twitter, but archaic, and also different, and therefore confusing".
The *keys also had many of the features that Twitter migrants complained were lacking from Mastodon. But trying to talk to anyone on Mastodon about platforms that aren't Mastodon was a total non-starter. Mastodon is a giant Mastodon circle jerk.
It made my soul sad.
But the real issue with Mastodon is that it has a significant population of people who believe it's a sacrosanct cultural space, and that are very vocal about telling anyone coming into it that they need to learn the local customs or GTFO. The push-and-pull between "we want to be mainstream" and also "fuck the mainstream normies" is palpable, and super cringey, and it turns people away quickly.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Kichae • • •If you see someone tell Mastodon users that the Fediverse isn't Mastodon, they're hardly ever on Mastodon themselves. They're most likely on Friendica which suffers the most from obnoxious Mastodon users, and if not, they're likely to be on Firefish or Akkoma or sometimes on Hubzilla.
The most extreme case I've encountered was a Mastodon developer who tried to convince me, a Hubzilla veteran, that Mastodon is literally the only feature-complete project in the Fediverse. Fortunately for him, I didn't ask him about full text formatting support, permissions, nomadic identity, multiple independent identities on one login, WebDAV/CalDAV/CardDAV or a built-in wiki engine.
... show moreIf you see someone tell Mastodon users that the Fediverse isn't Mastodon, they're hardly ever on Mastodon themselves. They're most likely on Friendica which suffers the most from obnoxious Mastodon users, and if not, they're likely to be on Firefish or Akkoma or sometimes on Hubzilla.
The most extreme case I've encountered was a Mastodon developer who tried to convince me, a Hubzilla veteran, that Mastodon is literally the only feature-complete project in the Fediverse. Fortunately for him, I didn't ask him about full text formatting support, permissions, nomadic identity, multiple independent identities on one login, WebDAV/CalDAV/CardDAV or a built-in wiki engine.
Worse yet, "coming into it" is also applied to everything in the Fediverse that isn't Mastodon. After learning that there's, in fact, more than Mastodon in the Fediverse, many Mastodon users still think Eugen Rochko has invented the Fediverse, and everything must have come after Mastodon.
Thus, even Friendica users who have been around since before Mastodon even saw its very first release are being forced to ditch Friendica's own culture, adopt Mastodon's culture instead and stop using all of Friendica's features that Mastodon doesn't have. And Friendica is five and a half years older than Mastodon. It has its own well-defined culture which is very different from Mastodon's because Friendica is so much different from Mastodon.
It's almost like European colonists vs natives, only that the European colonists didn't assume the natives had entered the previously completely uninhabited land after them.
GHiLA
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Hit up all
That's why. That's the reason.
but you could review the instance beforehand...
Is Jimbo Normalman going to review the instance beforehand? Lmao.
Sunshine (she/her)
in reply to GHiLA • • •dance_ninja
in reply to GHiLA • • •There's a high amount of friction to get people to join the Fediverse. I had to put in more effort than I'd like to figure out how things worked.
My biggest worry was picking the wrong Mastodon instance and then having no easy way to migrate my stuff to another server. Even after you pick your instance, there's so much setup for things that you kinda just expect to work.
WereCat
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I honestly can't wrap my head around how to use Mastodon. Idk how to search for things that would interest me.
I'm just glad Lemmy exists.
like this
Druid_Moo likes this.
bufalo1973
in reply to WereCat • • •Search for hashtags. And from that, follow people and hashtags.
Easy enough? (I hope so. I can't explain it easier but if you need it...)
wulrus
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I remember the “big movement” when Twitter turned into a right wing cesspool.
At first, the biggest problem was that there were TWO main alternatives: Mastodon and Bluesky. So those who left split into two groups, ending up with a dead timeline, missing out on news. (I and my “bubble” use it to keep up with Covid vaccines, politics, safety etc.)
I joined the Mastodon group, because it solves the problem of a single crazy billionaire potentially buying & enshittifying it. But I fully admit that it is not user friendly at all. People who are not in IT just want it to WORK, like Twitter used to. They don’t want to “educate themselves” about servers, fediverse and networks. The user experience clearly hasn’t even been a thing. It’s techies writing software for themselves. What it needs is a full analysis of the experience from the start: Who are you, user, why are you considering Mastodon, what are your expectations, what are the experiences in the first 30 seconds after entering “mastadon
... show moreI remember the βbig movementβ when Twitter turned into a right wing cesspool.
At first, the biggest problem was that there were TWO main alternatives: Mastodon and Bluesky. So those who left split into two groups, ending up with a dead timeline, missing out on news. (I and my βbubbleβ use it to keep up with Covid vaccines, politics, safety etc.)
I joined the Mastodon group, because it solves the problem of a single crazy billionaire potentially buying & enshittifying it. But I fully admit that it is not user friendly at all. People who are not in IT just want it to WORK, like Twitter used to. They donβt want to βeducate themselvesβ about servers, fediverse and networks. The user experience clearly hasnβt even been a thing. Itβs techies writing software for themselves. What it needs is a full analysis of the experience from the start: Who are you, user, why are you considering Mastodon, what are your expectations, what are the experiences in the first 30 seconds after entering βmastadonβ (oh, you misspelled it?) or βtwitter alternativeβ into a search engine, etc. βpick an instanceβ is already the passive-aggressive demand nobody wants to hear.
In the end, my instance was shut down without a fair warning, all the reconnected and new contacts lost, no option to move. Trying Bluesky now, but many stayed at Twitter (now X), moved to Mastodon with or without success (most onto my dead instance), or gave up on microblogging.
I think we need something simple again. I remember what SUSE did for Linux in the 90s. Linux users were all like: Only debian is even somewhat useable, but if you should really do LFS. Non-techies willing to switch for βpoliticalβ or other reasons were hit in the face with βPick a distro!!!β. SUSE has been called βthe Windows among the Linux distrosβ by those people, but it did the right thing. It provided exactly the simplification we needed: βThis is Linux, you simply buy it on CD in a retail store like your other software, you run the installer.β It was a good thing.
IRC is the one good old thing that still works great. When they tried to enshittify freenode, we just moved, collectively. Many non-IT channels & servers died after 2010, though.
Kichae
in reply to wulrus • • •The "just pick an instance!" and "my instance shut down" thing is a core pain point here.
BlueSky is corporately run, and it's semi-centealized. This is bad for the internet, but it's good for the user. At least on the surface. And that's what users care about. It provides a sense of stability, and an umspoken promise that if anything happens, it's the company's fault, and the company's problem.
The fediverse is run by hobbiests. You join some hobbiest's forum or microblog, it connects to a bunch of other hobbiest's forums or microblogs, and if things break, oh well, it's just a hobby! And if that hobby becomes stressful for the hobbiest, they just abandon the hobby.
Leaving the users holding the bag.
The fediverse is unstable as an end user, because, as it's currently structured, it's not really designed to have end users. It's designed to have hobbiest tinkerers. It's right in the oft repeated motto of tne of the fediverse: users should own their data!
But who owns the data in the fediverse? Who actually controls it?
Server admins.
You o
... show moreThe "just pick an instance!" and "my instance shut down" thing is a core pain point here.
BlueSky is corporately run, and it's semi-centealized. This is bad for the internet, but it's good for the user. At least on the surface. And that's what users care about. It provides a sense of stability, and an umspoken promise that if anything happens, it's the company's fault, and the company's problem.
The fediverse is run by hobbiests. You join some hobbiest's forum or microblog, it connects to a bunch of other hobbiest's forums or microblogs, and if things break, oh well, it's just a hobby! And if that hobby becomes stressful for the hobbiest, they just abandon the hobby.
Leaving the users holding the bag.
The fediverse is unstable as an end user, because, as it's currently structured, it's not really designed to have end users. It's designed to have hobbiest tinkerers. It's right in the oft repeated motto of tne of the fediverse: users should own their data!
But who owns the data in the fediverse? Who actually controls it?
Server admins.
You own your data by self-hosting.
Like a giant computer nerd.
katy β¨
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •because bsky actually listened to their users and implemented features they asked for unlike mastodon who attacked migrators during the first twitter migration.
bsky also had a bunch of marginalised people - including trans people - as early adopters that helped shape their views on moderation.
Kichae
in reply to katy β¨ • • •The issue I have with this narrative is that the features migrators wanted already existed in the Fediverse, on Misskey, Friendica, Pleroma, Akkoma, etc. If anyone wanted to actually listen to those of us trying to point them to those options, things might have been a little different. But those voices were drowned out by the Mastodon circle jerk, and people didn't actually grok the whole federation thing well enough to understand that they could follow the same people from any of the different softwareseseses.
The fediverse isn't Mastodon, and we all do it a huge disservice by continuing to talk about it as if it were, even as we use a different fediverse platform.
serenissi
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •I don't know. But one potential advantage of bsky over mastodon is the data and real account migration capability between instances.
Also bsky is run by a company and overall infra is better than most community instances of mastodon, so people will see better performance and more ad/pr visibility of the platform.
LaLuzDelSol
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •matcha_addict
in reply to LaLuzDelSol • • •LaLuzDelSol
in reply to matcha_addict • • •matcha_addict
in reply to LaLuzDelSol • • •LaLuzDelSol
in reply to matcha_addict • • •pr06lefs
in reply to LaLuzDelSol • • •nasi_goreng
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •At least for Japanese users, they want to see content they love from creators relevant to them.
Creators = illustrator, comic artist, photographer, cosplayer, writer, etc.
Creators want a stable platform that allows them to widen their reach and potentially making more money.
Mastodon at the moment are tend to be hostile against creators that wants to monetize their work.
Not to forget, the creator you want to follow are on defederated or blocks your instance for random admin drama.
But hey, at least fediverse software like Misskey actually trying to serve these community. Like allowing community ads (like promoting indie comics, vtuber, or social event) and trying to be stable by resolving any potential instance problem together with zero drama. Misskey community also often have tendency to "decoupling from Western tech supremacy"
confluence
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Jupiter Rowland
in reply to confluence • • •First, Bluesky's nomadic identity isn't worth shit if nobody knows that there's more than one instance.
Next, it has yet to be proven to work because nobody has daily-driven it yet.
Finally, if you want nomadic identity that's actually proven to work, don't join Bluesky. Join Hubzilla. Nomadic identity, established in 2012, some four years before Mastodon, daily-driven by probably hundreds or thousands of people since then.
I'm not even kidding. The Fediverse had nomadic identity four years before it had Mastodon.
matcha_addict
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Because most people don't exactly want a community-led social platform that respects you and empowers user freedom, even if some say they do.
Bluesky is promising a Twitter-like experience. They promote their ties to the former Twitter, and promise algorithms, dopamine-inducing "reach" and "engagement", paid subscriptions, some degree of centralized control (primarily of the network's infrastructure), and a for-profit VC-funded company, all under the guise of federation. They claim a mastodon-like brand that they are yet to deliver.
prof_wafflez
in reply to matcha_addict • • •Get off your high horse. I work for a software company, regularly participate in beta testing and am very tech literate. Mastodon was agitating to use when I signed up and not intuitive. The community I signed up in also deleted my account during a βwhoopsieβ. A terrible experience drove me off with no desire to go back for such a tiny and relatively stagnate user base on an unstable platform. If that was my experience, the average person will absolutely not like Mastodon.
matcha_addict
in reply to prof_wafflez • • •PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to matcha_addict • • •See this is part of the problem.
Dude was like "look at this objectively terrible experience I actually had" \
And you are like "yeah well that could happen to bsky in theory too, so they're just as bad!"
I've been a mastodon user for almost 2 years, but I never use it because finding interesting people to subscribe to who are actually active is difficult.\
I haven't been using bsky because I've really been hoping mastodon takes off, but whenever I hear about how easy it is to onboard and find interesting content, I think about switching.
matcha_addict
in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to matcha_addict • • •What an absolutely braindead reply.
Mastodon had a bad experience for that person. \
Blue sky didn't.\
Their experience wasn't unique.\
End of story.
You're doing mental gymnastics to misinterpret their argument. Nobody said they want centralized social media you absolute lemon. They want a user experience that doesn't suck. Right now, blue sky provides that while mastodon doesn't.
"Oh but bsky's federation doesn't solve Mastodon's problem" they don't have to solve Mastodon's problem.
Elitist neckbeards like you are the reason the fediverse isn't fun.
matcha_addict
in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to matcha_addict • • •electric_nan
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •woelkchen
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Interest in hobbies related to commercial brands (following sports, movie franchises, etc.)
When you even mention that you'd like to follow brand accounts, people start shouting at you how commercial scum needs to be banned/defederated.
Of course people move to platforms where their interests are represented.
Coskii
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •EnderMB
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •Today
in reply to Sunshine (she/her) • • •