Svenska landningar av kräftor 2023. Det fiske som är det största i Sverige vad det gäller antalet aktiva fiskebåtar är kräftfisket i havet. 218 båtar landade kräfta under 2023 varav 79 stycken landade mer än 5 ton. Kräftfiske bedrivs med bottentrål som kan vara ristförsedd eller utan rist och med bur. Vid fiske med trål utan rist blir det stora bifångster.
Plage de Muriola (BARRIKA) | Plage en BIZKAIA | Tourisme Euskadi - Tourisme en Euskadi, Pays Basque.
Plage de Muriola
Activités, installations, comment arriver et autres informations d'intérêt de Plage de Muriola de BARRIKA, province de BIZKAIABasque Administration Web Portal
Le triomphe du nudisme au Pays basque
Le blog Pays basque - Cote basque
Le magazine (blog basque) Internet de la Côte basque depuis 1999Phil Cotebask (Le blog Pays basque - Cote basque)
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Johan Ehrenberg vilseleder om fjärrvärme i en ledare i ETC där han menar att fjärrvärme är ett dåligt sätt att värma upp hus då produktionen av fjärrvärme genom att elda upp träavfall från skogsavverkning, massafabriker, sågverk etc ger koldioxidutsläpp.
Newly added to the Trade-Free Directory:
OpenMandriva
The OpenMandriva Association’s goal is to develop a pragmatic distribution that provides the best user experience for everyone, from newbies to developers. We will achieve our objectives for the best balance between the most modern features and stability.
Our roots are in Mandrake and its traditions, we are a worldwide community of people who are passionate about free software working together and take our technical and strategic decisions in a collaborative manner. We do not just build a Linux distro, we exchange knowledge and make new friends. Welcome to OpenMandriva Community! Click here to get to know who we are, and what we are doing.
#LinuxDistribution #operatingSystem
More here:
directory.trade-free.org/goods…
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Antalet anmälda narkotikabrott säger ingenting om brottslighet. Antalet anmälda narkotikabrott styrs helt av polisens arbete. Det avspeglar antalet personkontroller som polisen gör och inte hur många narkotikabrott som begås. Ju fler personkontroller polisen gör ju fler narkotikabrott anmäls.
blog.zaramis.se/2024/07/18/ant…
Svenska landningar av räkor 2023. Många av de större svenska räktrålarna landar numera mer fisk än räka. De bedriver idag ibland även riktat fiske efter andra arter än räka. En del fiskar även kräfta. De flesta större räkfiskeföretag har idag också flera båtar med räkfisketillstånd som de ibland fiskar med. De båtar de sällan fiskar med kallas […]
PieFed development update July 2024 - Lightbox, Mod log, Wikis
Over the last 3 weeks there have been significant contributions from h3ndrik and myself.
H3ndrik
- Many many under the hood improvements. Simplifying code & improving performance.
- Better lightbox
- Improve post teaser layout
Rimu
- Mod log which shows all moderator actions
- The “Rational discourse toolkit” block in the bottom right is now optional - instance admins can turn it off in the settings.
- Staff role - some admin tasks can be delegated to a supporting role which can do limited things. Which operations the supporting role can do can be controlled with checkboxes. This is nearly complete and just needs a bit more elbow grease.
- A.gup.pe integration - These are a kind of basic community / group function built on Mastodon. About 20% of new posts on piefed.social are coming from Mastodon, mostly via a.gup.pe. These groups include
- piefed.social/c/photography@a.…
- piefed.social/c/actuallyautist…
- piefed.social/c/auscovid19@a.g…
- piefed.social/c/fedibikes_de@a… (German)
- piefed.social/c/classicalmusic…
- piefed.social/c/histodons@a.gu…
- piefed.social/c/actuallyadhd@a…
- piefed.social/c/bookstodon@a.g…
- Community wikis - moderators can create pages that serve as a resource for the community. Each page has revisions that can be reverted to. See a demo at join.piefed.social/vlog/piefed….
photography group
I'm a group about photography. Follow me to get all the group posts. Tag me to share with the group. Create other groups by searching for or taggin…piefed.social
De två män som hittades i en utbrunnen bil i ett industriområde i Fosie i Malmö söndagen den 14 juli var britter. De två ska ha drivit en resebyrå tillsammans och reste enligt brittiska tidningar till Malmö för att träffa representanter för hotell och turistnäringen. Männen från den utbrunna bilen i Fosie bodde enligt brittisk media i Finchley i norra London.
blog.zaramis.se/2024/07/18/man…
Männen från den utbrunna bilen i Fosie var britter - Svenssons Nyheter
De två män som hittades i en utbrunnen bil i Malmö. Männen från den utbrunna bilen i Fosie bodde enligt brittisk media i FinchleyAnders_S (Svenssons Nyheter)
Once again the prison revolt is silenced with beatings, blood and death.
After March 2020 in which 14 people were brutally killed by the police following the revolt in the Modena prison, also in Trieste in the prison of Coroneo, on Thursday 12 July 2024, the revolt is suffocated with violence and ends in death. For the propaganda of the police headquarters there is the same script, assault on the infirmary and death by overdose.
Screams, flames and human demands are silenced in the dark of night behind those bars and walls where more than ever it is evident that some human beings are worth more than others, where class difference remains a prerogative, where the exploited are locked up – and to reaffirm what their role is in this capitalist society that squeezes and kills without any hesitation, which finances wars for its economic interests, which destroys woods and forests, seas and oceans, exterminating human and animal populations. Prisons, CPR and REMS become “banal” places of criminal and administrative confinement where to amass and lock up anyone who decides or is forced to live outside its logic or to fight to destroy it. Factories of a sub-humanity not only expelled from the common world, but mutilated and destroyed, abandoned and at the same time exposed as a tribute paid to the State. Yet, within the security discourse that thrives today, the State is far from having done away with the dangerous classes, with the indolent, uncontrollable plebs. This is confirmed by the 5 riots in Italian prisons that took place in the last week.
Even in Trieste the heat is suffocating (reaching 40 °) and wasp nests prevent you from opening the windows, bed bugs and rats are unbearable tenants and the rhythms and needs of daily life are imposed by those who exercise power: television, psychotropic drugs, air, sociality, conversations…
It is useless for the guarantor of the prisoners to try to lick our asses, claiming to be on their side and on our side, for the bishop to waste empty words of closeness or any of these false figures to fill their mouths with futile words of circumstance. They are all accomplices of this system, of its brutality and of the horror that is imprisonment. The question is not to know what to do with prison, how to improve it, to reform it, it is instead a question of how to get rid of it as soon as possible.
Our solidarity and closeness goes to those who have revolted and to those who will revolt until the bars and walls of all prisons are destroyed. Because the only solution to the problems of prisons is to eliminate them.
The bill has been presented to us, now it’s up to us to pay it.
For the struggle and for freedom.
Solidarity with all the prisoners in struggle.
Anarchici e Anarchiche de Trst
On Open Source and the Sustainability of the Commons
cross-posted from: lemmy.zip/post/18408267
On Open Source and the Sustainability of the Commons par Ploum - Lionel Dricot.
like this
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Installing CH340 drivers in Linux Mint running 5.15.0-88 kernel
Hi all, I've recently switched over to Linux Mint from Windows 10 and I'm having trouble installing a CH340 driver from Sparkfun. I've managed to unzip the contents and have it in this location: /home/user/Downloads/CH341SER_LINUX. I've tried running the files using the ./ command for both the ch34x.c and Makefile but ran into a bash issue which I'm stuck trying to figure out. Could someone please tell me how to make it work? I've already looked up a couple of different videos on Youtube but they kind of skip the explanation of how to install this driver on Linux in favor of Windows and MacOS.
Please see the attached image for the response I get in the terminal.
UPDATE: It turns out I had a bad micro USB cable. Most of the ones I was using to connect to an ESP32 board were charge only. Mint apparently had the driver for this all along. Thanks for the help everyone.
Like nearly all drivers lol
Drivers I needed to pay special attention to:
- NVidia (we all know the official stance on that topic)
- e1000e needs patching because my Laptops NIC somehow reports the wrong NVM checksum
- Some obscure chinese "USB to DVI-D" adapter
- The fingerprint sensor in my Laptop, as it's still experimental
Open Source Housing
Derek Sherrell shows a low cost, open source house that he built in 90 days. He is giving away the plans for free for anyone who wants to build their own.
Open source is a wonderful concept that should be applied to everything, not just software.
Man Builds Tiny Home ADU for $60K & Shares Free Plans + FULL TOUR
Derek is a builder who is absolutely obsessed with affordable housing and ADUs (accessory dwelling units). In this video he gives us a full tour of his smal...YouTube
Are house designs covered by copyright?
You could always write to him and ask him to specify a licence.
Yes. Under 17 U.S. Code § 102 (a) (8). Blueprints might be under (a) (5) too but I'm not an expert.
(a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:
- (1) literary works;
- (2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
- (3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
- (4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
- (5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
- (6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
- (7) sound recordings; and
- (8) architectural works.
I came across these guys a while ago.
WikiHouse
WikiHouse is a digitally-manufactured building system that makes it simple for anyone to build beautiful, zero-carbon homes.www.wikihouse.cc
If you want a more sustainable option (read: higher density, multi-family housing) that's actually licensed openly, checkout Eco-Libre's designs for the Launch-Nest.
The structure is designed to house 30 people (18 meters x 7 meters, 5-stories high), off-grid solar PV (energy) and thermal (heating, cooking), and walls are made of CEB pressed on-site.
 |
|---|
| Eco-Libre Launch Nest |
We're still in the design phase, but the FreeCAD files are public and licensed CC BY-SA.
GitHub - Eco-Libre/launch-nest: Designs for a Mixed-Use, Multi-Story, Highly-Sustainable Community House for 30 people
Designs for a Mixed-Use, Multi-Story, Highly-Sustainable Community House for 30 people - Eco-Libre/launch-nestGitHub
completely open
They haven't specifically given a license to use the blueprints, they're just posted as a "free download".
Will Linux’s New run0 Command Run sudo Out of Town?
Will Linux’s New run0 Command Run sudo Out of Town?
Run as usual, or run for the hills?Dave McKay (How-To Geek)
I agree that most of the stuff we require to use doesn't need all the options sudo as
Main reason of using doas
but numerous scripts and programs when trying to request explicit super-user permissions, just didn't know what to do with doas as expected
I've only found one software like that and it's tipi, and it's kinda dumb for a software to require such a easily replacable software. Also how openbsd users are supposed to do ? Having both doas and sudo on their machine which is unnecessary bloat ?
(Yes, I know plenty prefer or explicitly are against the usage of systemd suite of software, was pointing out systemd main reason of planning to propose an another standard, regardless if it will be popular or not)
Nexus mods want feedback from Linux / Steam Deck users on their new cross-platform app
Yesterday, July 1st, they announced the Alpha release of this next-generation mod manager and their new Product Manager got in touch to mention they "would be really keen to get feedback from Linux users". So this is your chance to ensure Linux (and Steam Deck) finally become a first-class citizen for game modding.
Nexus mods want feedback from Linux / Steam Deck users on their new cross-platform app
I wrote about the brand new Nexus mods app before, as it's quite a promising exciting development for the future of modding (especially for Linux and Steam Deck). And now, they want your feedback.Liam Dawe (GamingOnLinux)
You hear something die in the distance
You hear something die in the distance
I just screwed myself so hard. Was OP buff as hell warrior class. Killed the final boss with ease, went back up to level 1, and .....couldn't leave. I'd forgotten to go grab the dumb amulet and didn't even notice I wasn't healing on the boss stages on the way back up.
Went all the way back down, grabbed the amulet, started going back up again but at that point I was running low on food. Then due to a quick series of absolute bs and bad luck I got killed. Ruined a fantastic run that I thought was in the bag.
This Is The Smallest Linux Gaming PC! It's Fast & Fits In The Palm Of Your Hand - Bazzite Linux
This Is The Smallest Linux Gaming PC! It's Fast & Fits In The Palm Of Your Hand
This Micro Ryzen 7 7840U Now Runs Bazzite OS and outperoms the Steam Deck!This is the Minis forum EM780 The Smallest Ryzen 7840U Micro Gaming PC Ever and we ...YouTube
Absolutely not correct.
Feel free to price out the build that beats these things by a wide margin.
All of which you can run on an ATX...?
Try carrying around a dozen ATX machines while I carry around a dozen of these. You'll see why TOs prefer the smaller, lighter machine.
This is not complicated.
It sure isn't.
responding to edits:
What’s cool about spending ridiculous amounts of money on needlessly small products?
$550 is ridiculous? You're not getting much more power in an ATX build if you're only filling a 1080p display anyway.
Like Minesweeper tournaments?
Skullgirls, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R, basically anything retro and emulated, Puyo Puyo. Take your pick. This thing can run Street Fighter 6, and let me tell you how many problems there are with running it on a PS5, even if it outputs a better image...Sony really made things harder for everyone.
Because it’s doing a tenth as much work.
Exactly! Now you're getting it!
And also, most game-playing time worldwide is spent on games that are over ten years old and don't need a lot of power. If you want the form factor more than power that you don't need, you may as well lower your energy bill and the amount of space this thing takes up in your home.
This is a bad purchase and a poor use-case.
Sorry but can you explain why you think that?
I have a mini-PC from Minisforum (not this one) dedicated as a media computer in my living room. It can fit nicely inside the TV bench, which a regular sized computer wouldn't do. I like that I can play games like Horizon: Zero Dawn on it without any issue. I love it, and I gave about 800 USD for it.
I am planning getting a high-end rig for my office later (next year maybe?), and then I of course will not consider a mini-PC.
Also him paying windows 11 any mind at all while acknowladging steam on Linux works fine for every game he tests is pretty cringe.
Wut? But is good for comparison.
He used to be good especially when the steam deck was first being released he did some good early videos on it. However it seems like in the last year or so every single minipc/handheld/etc vendor started sending him free review units and he feels compelled to do a video on every single one. He's probably got rooms full of awesome tech stuff that isn't being used, or he sells it.
I kinda stopped paying attention to him when he said oculink 4i has 8 lanes of pcie, or something like that.
Also him paying windows 11 any mind at all while acknowladging steam on Linux works fine for every game he tests is pretty cringe.
That's probably true. However, I'm sure there are people out there who have very limited space and do not need that extra power for the games ey play.
Given the world these last few years, there have been many people who have been forced to downsize and get or become room mates or live in an RV. This doesn't necessarily mean a person can't enjoy a little downtime. The primary point is that every inch counts. Or so, she says.
Please re-read my post. I said multiple times that a small form factor is crucial in some situations.
ATX = full desktop form factor
Mini-ITX = smaller
OP video = compact
It's not always about money. It's not always about raw power either.
Why ATX when you can go MiniITX?
I do have an Ryzen 7 5700G in my DeskMini A300. But had to cut a hole in the case for the cooler.
Seriously, this thing looks awesome.
EDIT: I waited a few weeks to make sure I still wanted one, so that this couldn't be considered an impulse purchase. It is, in fact, awesome. More powerful than a PS4 Pro in such a small, light, quiet package. I'm definitely using this as my fighting game machine when I travel and need to set up a casuals station. Not only is it significantly more performant than a Steam Deck, it ought to be less cumbersome to set up than a Steam Deck and dock.
Steam announces game recording beta
Game Recording Beta
A new built-in system for creating and sharing your gameplay footagestore.steampowered.com
Is NixOS at the advent of an implosion? | Community inquiry on recent drama
NixOS' influence and importance at pushing Linux forward into the (previously) unexplored landscape of configuring your complete system through a single config file is undeniable. It's been a wild ride, but it was well worth it.
And although it has only been relatively recently that it has lost its niche status, the recent influx of so-called 'immutable' distros springing up like mushrooms is undeniably linked to and inspired by NixOS.
However, unfortunately, while this should have been very exciting times for what's yet to come, the recent drama surrounding the project has definitely tarnished how the project is perceived.
NixOS' ideas will definitely live on regardless. But how do you envision NixOS' own future? Any ETA's for when this drama will end? Which lessons have we learned (so far) from this drama? Are there any winners as a result of this drama? Could something like this happen to any distro?
In case you're out of the loop. Though, there's a lot that has transpired since but which hasn't been rigorously documented at a single place; like how 4 out of 5 NixOS board members have quit over the last 2 months or so.
GitHub - KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained: This is a repository that aims to concisely explain the issues in Nix community
This is a repository that aims to concisely explain the issues in Nix community - KFearsoff/nix-drama-explainedGitHub
In September the NixOS constitutional assembly should finish their work, and the community will be able to elect governance. I'm guessing that's when the drama will start getting resolved.
In the meantime, there are multiple maintainers that have left because of the drama - which is more troublesome than the board members leaving - but nixpkgs has a LOT of maintainers, and there are new ones joining all the time. It's still healthy and won't implode so quickly.
Is Nix really so important to the world that it needs a constitutional assembly, a board of directors, and general elections?
I always gathered that it was a niche project within the niche of Linux distro projects.
Is it a bunch of people playing out a company governance fantasy or is it actually a large, well valued company? I think that the vast majority of people wouldn't even be able to make an informed voting decision.
I am also quite out of the loop I feel...
It’s probably wise to simply ignore the drama. Open source seems to invite this at the “top” for whatever reason, but for the casual user there is usually little to no impact.
Unless you’re trying to be a top contributor to nix, I would just carry on with normal usage and all the current drama will blow over.
Idk imo knowing about the drama makes me hesitant to go back, especially since I switched all my development environments from Nix to Guix and I dont want to have three package managers lol
Plus the Guix community seems really close knit
Also, happy cake day!
All good reasons to make a decision, I’m not trying to sway anyone in a direction.
I just feel bad when people see drama in a community and wonder if that thing is “safe”. I’ve seen this kind of thing many times before in other communities—PERL, Python, Ruby, Rust, etc—and it never seems to lead to sweeping changes the normal user would notice. It’s pretty safe to assume that day-to-day users of thing can just carry on if they don’t care about the community upset.
I'm not the op, but I've been using guix for several months on a new fairly top of the line desktop PC and it's going great. I've been able to play steam games and set up my dev environment with basically no issues.
The catch is you need to use non-official repositories (i.e. github.com/nonguix/nonguix) to use the non-libre kernel and other software not on the official channel.
There's also this nice little search engine - https://toys.whereis.みんな/ - where you can look for packages from other repos (or channels as they are called in guix).
I use Nix on my macos work laptop to set up my dev environment, but I definitely prefer guix so far, mostly due to the it being configured in guile over the weird nix language. The biggest advantage I see of Nix is that it has a bit more features and lots more packages.
I am a pretty hardcore emacs user and lisp lover though, so ymmv.
GitHub - nonguix/nonguix: Nonguix mirror – pull requests ignored, please use upstream for that
Nonguix mirror – pull requests ignored, please use upstream for that - nonguix/nonguixGitHub
They literally have this as the link in all their docs so I am not sure why you would choose the mirror on the fully-proprietary, Microsoft-owned code forge.
Nonguix / nonguix · GitLab
Guix channel for packages that can't be included upstream. Please do NOT promote or refer to this repository on any official Guix communication channels.GitLab
military tech company
wait until they find out where computers and the internet came from. or Tor... GPS, etc etc.
My take on it is that the creator of Nix was very good technically but was not a good BDFL, and that was the root of the problem. He didn't do a good job of politicking, stepped down, and now Nix is going through a bit of interregnum. I don't think it's likely to fail overall though, nixpkgs is too valuable of a resource to just get abandoned. I expect the board seats will be filled by people that know how to politick, and things will continue on after that.
Lessons learned is being a BDFL is hard. IMO Eelco Dolstra failed because he had opinions about things like Anduril sponsorship and flakes, and didn't just declare "This is the way things are going to be, take it or leave it". People got really pissed off because there wasn't a clear message or transparency, which resulted in lots of guessing.
What you call politics (US political "issues") and politicking (the act of seeking and organizing power or influence) are different things.
Maybe US political issues have no spot in tech but politics are a part of being human.
Unfortunately there isn't one easy source that I've found. This is based on reading the stuff you linked to, as well as discourse/matrix discussions linked to from those sources. I compare it mentally to Guido van Rossum as BDFL of Python (though not any longer). He did a much better job of communicating expectations, like here
It made some people unhappy that there was no Python 2.8, but everybody knew what was happening. The core Python team also wasn't surprised by that announcement, unlike with stuff like Anduril or flakes for the nix devs.
There was also a failure to communicate with stuff like the PR that would switch to Meson. The PR author should have known if Eelco broadly agreed with it before opening it. If there was a process that the PR author just ignored, the PR should have been closed with "Follow this process and try again". That process can be as simple as "See if Eelco likes it", since he was BDFL, but the process needs to be very clear to everyone.
the recent influx of so-called 'immutable' distros springing up like mushrooms is undeniably linked to and inspired by NixOS.
This is the usual (only?) solution - the idea forks or inspires a different community to take it further.
There's usually no fixing a toxic person / community in either real life or online.
You should know that the guy you cited in the second link, Srid, is a well-known right-wing shit-stirrer who is banned from basically all NixOS spaces because he cannot peacefully coexist. He literally gets up day after day with the seemingly sole purpose of fueling drama and causing problems. Don't take his opinion at face value, he wants to see the project burn down and this colors his interpretation of events.
NixOS is going through a rocky moment for sure, but there's no indication it will implode currently.
He literally gets up day after day with the seemingly sole purpose of fueling drama and causing problems
That's funny because I feel like that's exactly what all these self-proclaimed "gender terrorist" SJWs are doing to projects in the first place.
Interesting take.
I don’t believe in immutable distros.
This seems more philosophical than on technicalities. If this is correct, would you mind elaborating on the philosophical side?
They are not well developed now
Even if this were the case, shouldn't the constant development and continuous improvement result in something that's (eventually) well-developed? The only way I could see this holding some truth is if by design the 'immutable' model (whatever that is) happens to be broken or something like that. Like, how some file systems are simply better than Btrfs (or any CoW filesystem for that matter) for specific tasks; i.e. ensure to use the right tool for the right task. So, do you pose that 'immutable distros' are by design not well-suited? If so, why?
so it’s a bubble that should pop soon after people realize they are not ready yet
So you (actually) acknowledge and imply that it will become ready at some point. Or not? Furthermore, like how do you reconcile this with Fedora's ambitions for Fedora Atomic? Or how NixOS is going strong (perhaps stronger than ever) while it's been in the making since before Ubuntu?
and have a lot of disadvantages.
And advantages*. Or do you ignore those?
Also they are unsuitable for old PCs
This is false. What makes you think that?
and Nix seems relatively good for them
What's "them" in this sentence? The "old PCs" you had just mentioned? Or something else? Furthermore, if it is the "old PCs", doesn't this directly contradict with "they are unsuitable for old PCs"?
My previous comment was perhaps too enthusiastic 😜 . I'd like to slim it down as follows:
- First of all, thank you! It has been a lovely interaction so far. Your clarifications have been very helpful!
- I'm still very much interested in how you think 'immutable' distros should be understood and used.
- If I understood you correctly, you don't regard NixOS as an 'immutable' distro (or at least not representative), would you be so kind to elaborate on this?
- Some of your notions regarding 'immutable' distros don't align with my own experiences; i.e. a user with over two years of experience with Fedora Atomic and who has played around with Nix. Especially the following parts:
In the case of immutable distros, I feel like it’s gonna be some nice to watch chaos because new users will have to understand how to disable immutability to install drivers and fixes which means much more research (because most answers will just say “disable immutability for the directories that the fix needs” and the user will have no idea of any of that) and terminal commands.
To be absolutely clear, these notions are (almost) alien to me. I've only come across these with new users that had fallen for the (infamous) XY problem. But that's not even remotely representative. Hence, would I be correct to assume that your understanding of 'immutable' distros is relatively shallow? Which, to be absolutely fair, is totally fine.
Though, the possibility exists that your understanding of "disable immutability" is correct, but this particular phrase happens to be misleading instead. Hence, could you perhaps elaborate on what you mean with "disable immutability"? Like, how does that look like on any 'immutable' distro you're familiar with?
Thank you in advance 😊!
Thank you for the quick reply!
There is no philosophical side. I don't believe in them getting very major on desktops and laptops. That's it.
Alright. Thanks for clarification. Does "getting very major" primarily apply to adoption rate amongst users? Or does it primarily take into account adoption rate amongst distros?
Yes but the hype should disappear a long time before it happens. And that's what I meant by the bubble. It's very hyped, misunderstood and misused thing now. It will go away and then immutable systems will find their niche or die out.
Clear. Thank you. In your view, how should they be understood and used?
I said immutable systems have advantages and disadvantages (in the next comment I think)
I saw the part about advantages right after. However, I also noticed how the first disadvantage was written without nuance. The set of disadvantages and advantages that followed right afterwards was accompanied with "for some" (or something like that IIRC^[1]^). Therefore, to me at least, it seemed as if you meant that there were disadvantages overall. But some of these disadvantages may be perceived as advantageous to some. Which, I thought was perhaps more in line with the general outlook of your comment. Or at least, my understanding of it*.
Dual system partitions and Flatpaks are both not great for machines that use HDDs.
HDDs in general are not great :P . But, "unsuitable" =/= "not great". So, this does not justify the (previous) usage of "unsuitable". So, do you still stand behind the earlier use of "unsuitable"?
Old PCs.
Thank you for another clarification!
It doesn't because Nix doesn't have the just mentioned disadvantages of immutable systems.
Interesting.
I just noticed that I read your "Nix" as "NixOS". Which is blameworthy*. Uhmm..., so I have to ask for some (more) clarifications then 😜. Did you strictly mean Nix; i.e. the package manager and/or language? Or NixOS? According to you, does NixOS fall into Nix; i.e. simply the system that's built on Nix?
This looks like an attempt to start a fight or act like the aggressive part of the Nix community.but you either didn't read or decided to just fight instead.
Idk why you misunderstood this but imo it seems suspicious of you.
Fam. Chill. Please. I don't intend to antagonize or whatsoever 😅. Like, the (overwhelming) majority of my previous comment were queries for clarifications and questioned related to how I initially understood them. There's no need to make it more than that 😉.
All in all, thank you for clarifying and answering almost anything I asked. However, the following (I believe) still requires some attention:
Furthermore, like how do you reconcile this with Fedora’s ambitions for Fedora Atomic?
To clarify, from my understanding, it seems you regard/view 'immutable distros' at best as some niche. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine. And perhaps you're right; the future will tell. However, we know what Fedora intends for 2028; i.e. users of Fedora Atomic (and related 'immutable' projects led by Fedora) would constitute the majority of its user base. Furthermore, they've spoken since 2021 (IIRC) that Fedora Atomic (so likely Fedora Silverblue) will eventually become what people will install for Fedora Workstation. So, their ambition is clear. And their ambition contradicts with how you view it. How do you reconcile this with the fact that other distros (more often than not) join Fedora into whatever direction they depart? Examples of this include systemd, PulseAudio, PipeWire and some might even mention Flatpak and Wayland here.
- You've since changed your original comment (which is fair), so I'm not able to directly quote*.
Thank you. Thank you.
I am sorry, mister/miss. Something weird happened to my Lemmy account and it was inaccessible for 2 days.
No worries, fam 😉.
Immutable distros are good for cases when the machine is meant to be used for very specific tasks and applications while maintaining extreme stability and ease of updating. This includes OSes for ATMs, machinery control panels, enterprise office computers with very strict policies, educational computer class devices. I am not sure whether they are good for critical infrastructure such as aerospace industry and on-board computers so I can’t comment on that and it’s too early to do so anyways.
I think we very much agree on this. I am actually surprised 😜. Perhaps we (possibly) only 'disagree' on the following:
Immutable systems can also be used for regular modern workspaces if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else.
I actually even agree with this. But, and here it comes, you limit the use of 'immutable systems' when it comes to regular workspaces to just a subset that complies with "if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else". However, I'd argue it will soon become the preferred model for most people; simply because I'd argue the net positives dramatically outweigh the (diminishing) net negatives. And this 'clash' in perspectives is literally a philosophical/ideological one. Which, I actually tried to allude to in my very first comment. Btw, neither of us is right or wrong; as mentioned earlier, only time will tell.
For me an “immutable distro” is defined more by its read-only (or R/W with write being disabled by default) root file system than by reproducibility or any other stuff.
Alright. So, you prefer to refer to 'immutable' distro in the literal sense.
~~Regarding the status of the read-only (or disabled R/W) root file system, does this have to apply to the complete root file system; i.e. absolute? Or does it suffice if only a select subset of the system is read-only (or disabled R/W)?~~ I wanted to ask this, but later on you made clear that a system does not have to be completely and absolutely immutable for it to be considered immutable; a couple of read-only directories suffices.
Furthermore, is it required that an immutable system should remain immutable at all times for it to be considered an immutable system; i.e. changes are not allowed besides 'hacks'? Or is it perhaps possible for a system to be deemed immutable if it only possesses immutability during runtime?
Thanks in advance for yet another set of clarifications 😜!
Afaik NixOS does not use any form of read-only FS so that’s why it is not an immutable distro to me.
Teaser; the Nix Store, i.e. /nix/store, is immutable.
“Disable immutability” means “allow persistent changes for files and directories located in specific directories that are not in the /home directory/partition (“read-only” directories)”.
Very interesting. So, on Fedora Atomic, rpm-ostree install <package> would be considered "disable immutability". Right? But, this does not apply to flatpak install <package>. Right?
No matter how good your distro is, there always will be new users that need fixes or customizations that require extra steps and research on immutable (as in my definition) distros. This increases the chance of them giving up on Linux or creating angry/toxic posts on Linux related websites and communities.
To be clear, new users will most likely experience some issues on Linux for the time being. I don't think that 'immutable' distros are immune to that. Nor do I think they're particularly more troublesome. If anything, they allow for more stable experiences overall; which you seem to allude to as well.
Quick reply. Awesome!
Idk if it changes anything but in that part of my comment the word “workspace” should’ve been replaced by “workstation”. I guess I chose a wrong word in autocorrect.
Nope, it doesn't. But thanks for clarifying!
An immutable system is when everything (or almost everything) except for /home is read-only.
Interesting. Here's the thing; I am unaware of any so-called 'immutable distro' that fits this definition/description/notion/idea/understanding of an immutable system. So..., where do we go from here?
Idk if my English was an issue there but it looks like you understood that part completely upside down.
In retrospect, I think you actually did an okay-job at explaining your thoughts. But, yes; I did indeed misunderstand. Thanks for clarifying!
Probably. Idk anything about ostree.
In Fedora Atomic, most of /usr is immutable. IIRC, this is even the only directory (combined with the sub-directories found within) that are immutable. However, the command rpm-ostree install <package> allows the user to install packages into /usr. However, this change doesn't happen during runtime. Instead, a new image/deployment is created with the newly installed package that you can access after a (soft-)reboot (or with --apply-live if you like to live on the edge).
Based on this, does this still apply as "disabling immutability"?
What I meant is that if you want to manually edit a file anywhere except for /home (or do any manual changes to the system like installing a GTK theme), you have to run a command (I forgot which one) to disable immutability for the directory it’s in (or only for the file; I don’t remember).
This seems to be based on your own experience. If so, would you be so kind to inform me on which distro this was?
For new users it can be a problem because it may be hard for them to find a good tutorial that covers all the steps, especially at the start of the “immutability boom” if it’s ever going to happen.
Currently, apart from the documentation provided by uBlue and Guix, there's definitely a lack of good resources for 'immutable' distros. That's simply a fact. But, thankfully, this is not a problem by design; we just need people that are willing to put in the effort.
As I just said, more stability means that issues are more stable and hard to solve as well.
Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding this. Could you perhaps provide an example of this from e.g. Debian? It can be any distro that's regarded as 'stable'*.
Unless I'm wrong, you seem to have missed the following. It would be awesome if you could touch upon these as well:
Furthermore, is it required that an immutable system should remain immutable at all times for it to be considered an immutable system; i.e. changes are not allowed besides ‘hacks’? Or is it perhaps possible for a system to be deemed immutable if it only possesses immutability during runtime?
Thanks in advance 😊!
WOW, I just noticed something. You've been using the term "immutable system" for quite some time. And, I've primarily been using the term 'immutable' distro.
You're on fire, fam! Thank you for another quick one.
Before moving on, I want to make clear that I should correct some of my earlier statements. It probably doesn't matter, but for sake of completeness.
I actually even agree with this. But, and here it comes, you limit the use of ‘immutable systems’ when it comes to regular workspaces to just a subset that complies with “if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else”. However, I’d argue it will soon become the preferred model for most people; simply because I’d argue the net positives dramatically outweigh the (diminishing) net negatives. And this ‘clash’ in perspectives is literally a philosophical/ideological one. Which, I actually tried to allude to in my very first comment. Btw, neither of us is right or wrong; as mentioned earlier, only time will tell.
What I describe above is not meant for immutable systems, but for 'immutable' distros.
This is enough to cause most of the issues.
I didn't imply otherwise 😜. I was just explaining how immutability works on Fedora Atomic.
Not really because this is a pre-installed tool that doesn't require any hassle to get working.
Excellent. I agree. So, "disabling immutability" therefore only applies to 'hacks'. Right?
It wasn't my experience. I've never tried an immutable distro myself because it goes against my personal preferences and needs. I saw that on YouTube. I don't remember what distro it was unfortunately but I'm almost sure it was Fedora based.
Thanks for being transparent! I also appreciate you sticking to your values.
Also in case you didn't know, GTK themes are usually installed in /usr/share/themes so disabling immutable is required to do so even if /usr is the only thing that's immutable.
I knew this (and also how ~/.local/share/themes could be utilized for this). But, fair; this is indeed something that Fedora Atomic's old model didn't allow. Or, at best, very 'hacky'. Like, it's basically not intended for the end-user to put stuff in here. Fedora Atomic's new OCI-enabled model does allow this. But, yeah...; we ain't (necessarily) here to discuss implementations. Fact of the matter and the issue at hand is that traditional distros don't deal with issues like these. Right?
Sure but this excuse won't help new users and won't stop them turning away from Linux.
IMO, if a new user wants to use an 'immutable' distro, then they should just use one of uBlue's images. They're like the Linux Mint or Zorin or Pop!_OS of immutable distros. And, as previously mentioned, uBlue's documentation is at least sufficient. Traditional Linux distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their Manjaro installation. Similarly, *'immutable'* distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their not newbie-friendly *'immutable'* distro.
I meant the disadvantages of immutable systems here, not stability in general.
I think I got you now. Like with the previously mentioned issue with placing themes inside the /usr/share/themes directory; on any traditional distro, you'd be free to place it there and you wouldn't even have noticed a thing. While some 'immutable' distros, like Fedora Atomic, make this hard. Do you think I understood you correctly?
I have no idea what a runtime is so I can't answer this question.
The expression "during runtime" is used to express a running and/or currently in use system. So, if my device is off, then the expression "during runtime" does not apply. When I'm using the system or even if it's just idling, then the expression "during runtime" does apply. However, it's possible with Btrfs (and more sophisticated technologies) to create a partition/deployment/image on your disk that's currently not running nor in use and which has some changes compared to your running system. Then, once again, the expression "during runtime" does not apply.
Perhaps, I could be even more elaborate. So, on the overwhelming majority of 'immutable' distros (Guix System and NixOS are literally the exception) that offer a built-in mechanic for installing packages to the immutable base system (like the aforementioned rpm-ostree that's found on Fedora Atomic), the changes are not meant to be applied directly on the running system. So, for example, right after rpm-ostree install emacs, I can't just type emacs in a console/terminal and expect it to open. Nor does it appear in the app drawer. Only after the (soft-)reboot will I be able to use Emacs; be it through the console/terminal or find it in the app drawer.
So, these are examples of 'immutable distros' that are only (meant to be) immutable during runtime, because it's possible to apply changes to a system that's not currently running/in-use/idle or whatsoever.
I use the term "immutable system" because someone can create an immutable fork of BSD or even Windows can become immutable. It's not just about Linux.
Interesting. Thanks for that clarification.
WOW, I just noticed something. You’ve been using the term “immutable system” for quite some time. And, I’ve primarily been using the term ‘immutable’ distro.
The crux of this conversation lies here I believe. Your notion/understanding of an immutable system is probably more correct and more in line with what you'd expect from its name. However, the name "'immutable' distros" is unfortunately not descriptive. Contrary to what you'd expect, it's not a distro that happens to be an immutable system; at least, not in the absolute/complete sense.
I agree with you that this is misleading and a poorly chosen name. Heck, Fedora agrees with you; they've changed "Fedora Immutable Desktops" to "Fedora Atomic Desktops" because of this. However, as bad as the name is, people use the term "'immutable' distros" when talking about Fedora Atomic, Guix System, NixOS, openSUSE MicroOS and Ubuntu Core.
That's why I said this:
Interesting. Here’s the thing; I am unaware of any so-called ‘immutable distro’ that fits this definition/description/notion/idea/understanding of an immutable system. So…, where do we go from here?
And, to be honest, I'm not sure if you answered the bold question.
Thanks (once again) in advance! And apologies for this long comment 😅.
Thank you for being patient with me! And thank you for yet another set of clarifications!
Idk if everything can br called "hacks" but mostly yea.
I've used the term 'hacks' a couple of times without properly defining it. My bad. So, I've used it in the context of "doing things the unintended and/or unsupported way".
but idk if GUI apps and extensions can see themes installed in ~/.local
They should.
and how many installation guides tell about that method.
Arch wiki states it and there's no reason (in this case) to assume it won't work. Furthermore, FWIW, the documentation on uBlue does discuss theming.
Idk how it works
Currently, it involves creating your own image :P .
and how simple it is but gtk that.
So, as just mentioned, it's possible. But, it's definitely more cumbersome than placing it in /usr/share/themes.
But we're talking about situation when user-friendly distros become immutable.
Are you referring to distros like Linux Mint, Pop!_OS and Zorin becoming immutable? While it's definitely possible that I've alluded as such, I can't recall it. Nor was I able to find it in my earlier writings. Could you explicitly state what you mean by this and when I've (at least) hinted at this?
but, for example, you said that Fedora expects their immutable options to become mainstream.
If, by becoming mainstream, you mean that over half of Fedora's user base will be using them, then yes.
I know that Fedora and other immutable distros are often recommended for new users now.
If you meant uBlue images with "other immutable distros", then I'm fine with this statement. However, if you meant other immutable distros, then I'd like to know which ones you meant. Furthermore, even Fedora's own images are rarely recommended to new users. Generally, at least from what I've seen, Aurora, Bazzite and Bluefin (all three being uBlue image) are mentioned in these conversation. And, IMO, rightfully so.
This means that the ones that recommend them consider them user-friendly. Imo this, as well as rumors about Canonical want to make Ubuntu Core the default desktop offering, destroys your point in the context of this discussion.
Sorry. I lost you here. My bad. What's my point in the context of this discussion?
Another (but small) confusion point for new users.
At least the terminal output makes it very clear that a (soft-)reboot is required. I've honestly never seen anyone mention this, i.e. the need to (soft-)reboot for the changes to take effect, as something that leads to confusion. I do understand the frustration that follows from the act of (soft-)rebooting though :P .
Thanks once again for another lovely set of clarifications! Thank you in advance!
Apologies if I made you feel that way! And thank you for vocalizing your concerns!
It has never been my intent to troll you. Nor have I got any other evil motives.
I noticed how you've been one of the more vocal community members to oppose 'immutable distros'. And I, as a major supporter of 'immutable' distros, am very interested to know why that is. That's basically the whole idea of this conversation. At least on my part*. And, to be honest, I think we're almost done. There was only one paragraph from your earlier comment that I didn't get. And all the questions I posed are from that paragraph.
So, to make it simpler, I first want to clarify the following statement of my own:
Similarly, ‘immutable’ distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their not newbie-friendly ‘immutable’ distro.
With this, I don't mean that 'immutable' distros are (by definition) not newbie-friendly. That would be the complete opposite of what I've been saying this whole time :P . Instead, I posed that 'immutable' distros can be categorized in:
- those that are newbie-friendly
- and those that are not newbie-friendly
And, thus, my statement should be understood as: "The mishaps/inconveniences etc of not newbie-friendly distros, does not invalidate the existence of other 'immutable' distros that actually happen to be newbie-friendly. Hence, we shouldn't throw out all 'immutable' distros with the babywater; this idiom is referenced."
Finally, if you didn't misunderstand my statement in the first place, then I would like you to explain/elaborate what you had written here:
But we’re talking about situation when user-friendly distros become immutable. If the user willingly chooses an advanced distro, it’s not the distro’s fault but, for example, you said that Fedora expects their immutable options to become mainstream. I know that Fedora and other immutable distros are often recommended for new users now. This means that the ones that recommend them consider them user-friendly. Imo this, as well as rumors about Canonical want to make Ubuntu Core the default desktop offering, destroys your point in the context of this discussion.
That's all. Thank you in advance!
My apologies for being persistent; I'm just very much saddened that the IMO great conversation abruptly ended when it was so close to resolution. Regardless, this will be my last attempt at engaging in hopes of continuing the earlier conversation. However, full disclosure, if you don't respond, then I will leave you with a final message in which I will lay out what I got from this conversation and my overall view in regards to how it went etc.
So, without further a due.
I would like to cut the chase and be very direct:
- Finally, we've come to a common ground on what an 'immutable' distro even is. However, it's still unclear why the perceived inconveniences/difficulties are not merely related to implementation. Like, for all we know, in some future implementation of an 'immutable' distro, you could run whatever command you run to place your themes in /usr/share/themes, (soft-)reboot and find the theme in the designated folder. To me, it seems, as if you dismiss this possibility. If this is correct, why do you think that's the case? Isn't there more reason to be hopeful considering the mere fact that we're currently able to apply tons of customization that were previously inconceivable?
- You accuse the complete industry for misunderstanding and misusing 'immutable' distros. While, simultaneously, relying only on very basic second-hand information for your views on 'immutable' distros. Is this sensible to you?
- It seems as if you're not open to consider many other possible benefits that come with 'immutable' distros. The most recent addition/example of this would be openSUSE going in the direction of an OOTB measured boot with their openSUSE Aeon. Like, how did you even perceive this and did it make you rethink the possible benefits? Do you think it's conceivable that other people might have legit reasons for preferring 'immutable' distros that go beyond what you had previously described?
Aeon Desktop Introduces Comprehensive Full Disk Encryption
Full Disk Encryption is planned to be introduced in the forthcoming release candidate of the Aeon Desktop to enhance data security for its users. The feature...openSUSE News
hglman
in reply to Jure Repinc • • •like this
massive_bereavement likes this.
J Lou
in reply to hglman • • •Why not use a license that prevents capitalist firms from even using the software?
@linux
The Doctor
in reply to J Lou • • •They'll use it anyway.
It sounds flippant, but it's the truth. They'll use it internally. They'll expose it to the outside but delete all of the license information. They'll use it but stick a crappy React front-end in front of the rest (whether or not that counts as "using AGPL licensed software in violation of the license" is a matter for lawyers to figure out). Or they'll just use it because they have way more money than the AGPL-licensed project and drag it out in court for however long it takes.
J Lou
in reply to The Doctor • • •The Doctor
in reply to J Lou • • •J Lou
in reply to The Doctor • • •The Doctor
in reply to J Lou • • •J Lou
in reply to The Doctor • • •Not yet.
Copyfarleft has not had a whole movement built up around it, and no one has standardized the licenses.
@linux
JackbyDev
in reply to The Doctor • • •What are your thoughts on SSPL? I'm on the fence and leaning towards SSPL, or at least needing a more restrictive AGPL. I believe the FSF is too ideological and the OSI has a conflict of interest and that's why the two reject it. Though I believe SSPL may be poorly thought out.
The Doctor
in reply to JackbyDev • • •JackbyDev
in reply to J Lou • • •J Lou
in reply to JackbyDev • • •will_a113
in reply to Jure Repinc • • •smeg
in reply to Jure Repinc • • •JackbyDev
in reply to smeg • • •I think Codeberg is totally open as opposed to GitLab which has an open core and paid enterprise version. There's also SourceHut but you have to pay to use it (no free tier). ~~As far as I know there aren't any public Forgejo instances.~~ (Codeberg is Forgejo)
I think any of these are better than GitHub (I say as I still use GitHub).
bruce965
in reply to JackbyDev • • •GNUmer
in reply to bruce965 • • •JackbyDev
in reply to GNUmer • • •Lazorne
in reply to JackbyDev • • •JackbyDev
in reply to Lazorne • • •Forgejo makes a full break from Gitea [LWN.net]
lwn.netnikaaa
in reply to Jure Repinc • • •Very interesting read.
I also like how, at the end, it changed perspective to say "actually, our problem is not software, but politics".
We must be aware of what agents we encourage and discourage through our actions.