Linus Torvalds: Speaks on the Rust vs C Linux Divide
Linus Torvalds Speaks on the the divide between Rust and C Linux developers an the future Linux. Will things like fragmentation among the open source community hurt the Linux Kernel? We'll listen to the Creator of Linux.
For the full key note, checkout:
The Register's summary: Torvalds weighs in on 'nasty' Rust vs C for Linux debate
Torvalds weighs in on 'nasty' Rust vs C for Linux debate
This is like vi vs Emacs with 'religious overtones,’ project chief laughsRichard Speed (The Register)
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PeerTube v6.3 released!
PeerTube v6.3 released! | JoinPeerTube
This is the last minor release before v7, but it's packed with interesting new features! Let's have a look :) Separate audio and video streams for mor...JoinPeerTube
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Are you talking about were to upload your content?
I would say it depends on the content you wish to upload:
- tilvids.com
- makertube.net
- peertube.linuxrocks.online
- peertube.wtf (my instance)
PeerTube v6.3 released!
PeerTube v6.3 released! | JoinPeerTube
This is the last minor release before v7, but it's packed with interesting new features! Let's have a look :) Separate audio and video streams for mor...JoinPeerTube
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How to rebase to Fedora Silverblue 41 Beta - Fedora Magazine
How to rebase to Fedora Silverblue 41 Beta - Fedora Magazine
Instructions to rebase to Fedora Silverblue for 41 betaMichal Konečný (Fedora Project)
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Post by Kaiteki (@kaiteki@social.kaiteki.app)
It's probably hard for me to say this, but... Kaiteki will go the way of Megalodon, so development will stop. For the past few months, I've been struggling to make any progress at all.social.kaiteki.app
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Still just experimental fractional scaling...
I don't think the rounded circles for buttons in the file dialog looks good, but that's hopefully just the default theme.
Yeah, strange design choice since the other buttons in theUI are not pill shaped.
Aside from that things look very nice.
Yeah I think that round shape looks seriously out of place. You would never see something like that outside of gnome, in any app.
But alright, it is what it is.
Pregnancy completely rewires mothers' brains — study
The researchers found sweeping changes in overall brain neuroanatomy which unfolded week by week during the pregnancy.Inside Chrastil's brain, grey matter volume, cortical thickness, white matter microstructure, and ventricle volume all changed.
The changes were all over the brain too — "over 80% of my brain regions showed reductions in grey matter volume," Chrastil said.
Neuroanatomical changes observed over the course of a human pregnancy. Published by Pritschet, L., Taylor, C.M., Cossio, D. et al. in Nature Neuroscience (September 2024). doi.org/10.1038/s41593-024-017…
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this is the first study to consistently map brain changes during pregnancy, write the study authors in their paper."It's 2024 and this is the first glimpse we have of this fascinating neurological transition. There is so much about the neurobiology of pregnancy we don't understand yet. It's a biproduct of the fact that biosciences have historically ignored women's health," said Jacobs.
I knew that there were fundamental neurological changes that occurred during pregnancy, but had no idea that there hadn't been a comprehensive brain mapping study done yet. There is a surprising amount of sexism in academia.
The changes were all over the brain too — "over 80% of my brain regions showed reductions in grey matter volume," Chrastil said.Grey matter is brain tissue with high concentrations of neuron cell bodies, where information is processed. Reductions in grey matter volume are sometimes associated with reduced memory and cognitive function.
However, the study authors say a reduction in grey matter during pregnancy isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's more like a wave of brain refinement as the brain prepares for motherhood — like the process of chiseling a block of marble into a sculpture.
Seems like an overly positive framing of the effect.
De exploderande personsökare som Israel har använt vid sin terrorattack i Libanon var av en modell, AR-924, som tagit fram av det taiwanesiska företaget Gold Apollo har inte tillverkats i Taiwan. Enligt företaget ska tillverkningen ha lagts ut på det ungerska företaget BAC Consulting KFT.
PeerTube 6.3 released
- Separate audio and video streams for more flexibility
- Browse subtitles in the transcription widget
- Set up Youtube-dl for smoother imports
- And much more!
PeerTube v6.3 released! | JoinPeerTube
This is the last minor release before v7, but it's packed with interesting new features! Let's have a look :) Separate audio and video streams for mor...JoinPeerTube
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Krypterad kommunikationstjänst har slagits ut i en internationell polisoperation. Svensk polis har i en internationell polisoperation tillsammans med Europol, Eurojust och rättsvårdande myndigheter i åtta länder slagit ut en krypterad kommunikationstjänst som möjliggjort grov organiserad brottslighet.
PeerTube v6.3 released!
Let’s improve PeerTube!
We need your input! Bonjour, we are Framasoft. Our small French nonprofit maintains and develop PeerTube (among 50+ other projects), with only one (1!ideas.joinpeertube.org
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I guess I'm asking this before I register.
I still don't get PeerTube. Is it like Lemmy, where signing up to one "platform" gives you access to other platform's content with the same login? Or is each platform separate and only videos there will be shown?
It's federated like Lemmy, so each platform has 'local videos' and an 'all videos' section. E.g. fedi.video/videos/local and fedi.video/videos/overview
Of course, since it's federated, it means other platforms like PieFed, MBIN and Mastodon can access the same stuff, so you don't need to register anywhere if you're on one of them.
Why can't peertube use lemmy accounts too?
Couldn't they just join the fediverse like masterdon?
Åtal väckt för omfattande narkotikabrottslighet. Åklagare har väckt åtal mot en 27-årig man för två fall av synnerligen grov narkotikasmuggling och två fall av grovt narkotikabrott. Vidare för ett fall av försök till grovt narkotikabrott, ett fall av synnerligen grovt vapenbrott och grov smuggling.
Kvoten för sill (strömming) i Bottenhavet kan öka. Forskningen är klar på denna punkt. Internationella Havsforskningsrådet (ICES) har kommit med sina råd om fisket i Bottenhavet år 2025. Rekommendationen är en kvot av sill (strömming) på mellan 66 466 och 74 515 ton.
Sverige mot organiserad brottslighet“ (SMOB) är ett initiativ som syftar till att stärka Sveriges samlade förmåga att bekämpa den organiserade brottsligheten med särskilt fokus på den kriminella ekonomin.
Personsökare exploderade. Hizbollah vill kunna kommunicera utan att bli avlyssnade eller spårade. Det betydde att det bytte utrustning regelbundet och dessutom tycks ha valt använda äldre teknologi och personsökare istället för mobiltelefoner och krypterade chattprogram.
Bigfive Personality Test
Just wanted to highlight this project because I've had to take many personality tests for school and work and things, and this is the most accurate one I've seen, and the only one where I feel I'm actually learning about myself from the results.
So if you need a personality test for any reason this one's pretty good.
Free open-source BigFive personality traits test
Take a free, open-source Big Five personality test. Learn to know your personality traits and compare yourself with your partner, colleagues, friends or family.bigfive-test.com
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Now... Which dialogue choice did he take?
- "All good here"
- "All good here" (Lie)
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ProgrammingSocks
Unknown parent • • •like this
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Kairos
in reply to ProgrammingSocks • • •like this
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kbal
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn't like their info in video form. My attempt to summarize what Linus says:
He enjoys the arguments, it's nice that Rust has livened up the discussion. It shows that people care.
It's more contentious than it should be sometimes with religious overtones reminiscent of vi versus emacs. Some like it, some don't, and that's okay.
Too early to see if Rust in the kernel ultimately fails or succeeds, that will take time, but he's optimistic about it.
The kernel is not normal C. They use tools that enforce rules that are not part of the language, including memory safety infrastructure. This has been incrementally added over a long time, which is what allowed people to do it without the kind of outcry that the Rust efforts produce by trying to change things more quickly.
There aren't many languages that can deal with system issues, so unless you want to use assembler it's going to be C, C-like, or Rust. So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.
If you make your own he's looking forward to seeing it.
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Squiddlioni, Beacon, imecth and RadioDonut like this.
pnutzh4x0r
in reply to kbal • • •solrize
in reply to kbal • • •As always, Ada gets no respect.
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kbal likes this.
I_Miss_Daniel
in reply to solrize • • •I blame Ian Dury.
Possibly NSFW.
gerdesj
in reply to solrize • • •Tlaloc_Temporal
in reply to gerdesj • • •Archer
in reply to Tlaloc_Temporal • • •nilloc
in reply to Archer • • •bluewing
in reply to Archer • • •Threeme2189
in reply to gerdesj • • •0x0
in reply to gerdesj • • •nyan
in reply to solrize • • •solrize
in reply to nyan • • •Brosplosion
in reply to solrize • • •solrize
in reply to Brosplosion • • •I have played with Ada but not done anything "real" with it. I think I'd be ok with using it. It seems better than C in most regards. I haven't really looked into Rust but from what I can gather, its main innovation is the borrow checker, and Ada might get something like that too (influenced by Rust).
I don't understand why Linux is so huge and complicaed anyway. At least on servers, most Linux kernels are running under hypervisors that abstract away the hardware. So what else is going on in there? Linux is at least 10x as much code as BSD kernels from back in the day (idk about now). It might be feasible to write a usable Posix kernel as a hypervisor guest in a garbage collected language. But, I haven't looked into this very much.
Here's an ok overview of Ada: cowlark.com/2014-04-27-ada/ind…
toastal
in reply to solrize • • •solrize
in reply to toastal • • •GenderNeutralBro
in reply to kbal • • •There's one called Redox that is entirely written in Rust. Still in fairly early stages, though. redox-os.org/
JetpackJackson
in reply to kbal • • •pastermil
in reply to kbal • • •gwilikers
in reply to kbal • • •thingsiplay
in reply to gwilikers • • •AusatKeyboardPremi
in reply to gwilikers • • •He uses a version of Emacs called MicroEmacs.
I recall seeing his MicroEmacs configuration a while back when I was exploring options to start using Emacs.
corsicanguppy
in reply to AusatKeyboardPremi • • •In testing, to settle a bet by a rabid cult-of-vi peer, I opened a given set of files in each editor, each a day apart because I couldn't be arsed to clear caches. This guy, otherwise a prince, was railing about emacs, but otherwise suffered days of waiting.
10/10 the memory usage by his precious vi was same-or-more than emacs.
There's so many shared libs pulled in by the shell that all the fuddy doomsaying about bloat is now just noise.
I avoid vi because even in 1992 it was crusty and wrong-headed. 30 years on the hard-headed cult and the app haven't changed.
I don't see how microEmacs can improve on what we have by default, and I worry that the more niche the product is the harder it will be to find answers online. But I'm willing to be swayed if anyone can pitch its virtues.
chonglibloodsport
in reply to corsicanguppy • • •steeznson
in reply to chonglibloodsport • • •Brewchin
in reply to AusatKeyboardPremi • • •TIL that version appears to be on the AUR: MicroEMACS/PK 4.0.15 customized by Linus Torvalds.
Last updated in 2014, it probably has serious cobwebs now. Even the upstream hasn't been touched in 6 years.
AUR (en) - uemacs-git
aur.archlinux.orgEveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted
in reply to kbal • • •How is it that no matter what the damn topic is, Linus always seems to be the most level-headed in the room? I really admire him for that...
Edit: Lol, Linus, not Linux. Linus. xD
Allero
in reply to EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted • • •Linus did have emotion control issues and was not always completely rational, but he's gone a long way towards being incredibly responsible to his child that powers the world.
Also, he long understands that Linux ain't a hobby project, which some programmers still get to think.
Vincent
in reply to kbal • • •gomp
in reply to kbal • • •I love you.
MonkderVierte
in reply to kbal • • •Isn't there Redox OS?
Edit: yes, it's still alive and kicking.
CeeBee_Eh
in reply to MonkderVierte • • •pedka
in reply to CeeBee_Eh • • •CeeBee_Eh
in reply to pedka • • •corsicanguppy
in reply to kbal • • •You write "vi versus the world" funny.
caseyweederman
in reply to corsicanguppy • • •milicent_bystandr
in reply to corsicanguppy • • •Rozaŭtuno
in reply to kbal • • •Psyhackological
in reply to kbal • • •C is more mature than Rust so we wait for Rust to shine
Rust can overcome some complex things in C and vice versa
alyxbond
in reply to kbal • • •Linus Torvalds has made some interesting comments on the Rust vs C debate in the Linux kernel. He enjoys the discussions because it shows that people care about the project, even though things can get a little heated like the classic vi vs emacs arguments. The Rust conversation is still in its early days, and while Linus is optimistic about its future in the kernel, it’s too soon to say whether it will ultimately succeed or fail.
He points out that the Linux kernel isn't just "normal" C it's C with additional tools and rules that ensure memory safety and other protections. This incremental approach has allowed for changes without causing the kind of backlash that Rust has faced with its more dramatic changes.
At the end of the day, the kernel has to deal with system-level issues, and unless you're working in assembly, it’s going to be C, C-like, or Rust. Linus is looking forward to seeing how other systems outside of Linux might adopt Rust for their own needs.
If you're interested in exploring more of these tech discussions or maybe looking for some r
... show moreLinus Torvalds has made some interesting comments on the Rust vs C debate in the Linux kernel. He enjoys the discussions because it shows that people care about the project, even though things can get a little heated like the classic vi vs emacs arguments. The Rust conversation is still in its early days, and while Linus is optimistic about its future in the kernel, it’s too soon to say whether it will ultimately succeed or fail.
He points out that the Linux kernel isn't just "normal" C it's C with additional tools and rules that ensure memory safety and other protections. This incremental approach has allowed for changes without causing the kind of backlash that Rust has faced with its more dramatic changes.
At the end of the day, the kernel has to deal with system-level issues, and unless you're working in assembly, it’s going to be C, C-like, or Rust. Linus is looking forward to seeing how other systems outside of Linux might adopt Rust for their own needs.
If you're interested in exploring more of these tech discussions or maybe looking for some related tools, you can download APK for access to various Linux utilities on mobile.
atzanteol
in reply to Kairos • • •blackbrook
Unknown parent • • •Kairos
in reply to atzanteol • • •Yes
But the trade off is well worth it.
ryannathans
in reply to Kairos • • •theshatterstone54
Unknown parent • • •gerdesj
in reply to ryannathans • • •PushButton
Unknown parent • • •Zig is "c", but modern and safe.
The big selling points compared to Rust are:
The syntax is really close to the C language; any C programmer can pick up Zig really fast.
IMO Zig is a far better choice to go in the kernel than Rust.
Linux has tried to include CPP in it, and it failed.
So imagine if trying to fit in a C-like cousin failed, how far they are to fit an alien language like Rust...
For more information: ziglang.org/learn/why_zig_rust…
khorovodoved
Unknown parent • • •PushButton
in reply to Kairos • • •it's more "it forces you to make it burrow checker friendly".
A burrow checker is not the only mechanism to write safe code. All the mess of Rust is all because this is the strategy they adopted.
And this strategy, like everything in this world, has trade offs. It just happens that there are a lot, like, - a lot -, of trade offs, and those are insufferable when it comes to Rust...
atzanteol
in reply to Kairos • • •Kairos
in reply to atzanteol • • •thingsiplay
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •corsicanguppy
in reply to thingsiplay • • •You're drastically reducing your talent base by requiring membership in two groups of experts. Well done.
The comma splice gives it away, but you're new at organizing groups and practicing set theory, aren't you?
thingsiplay
in reply to corsicanguppy • • •x00za
in reply to thingsiplay • • •λλλ
in reply to x00za • • •Do you have something against it? People hate on it like it's a fad or whatever. But, the people who like it, LOVE it.
survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#…
survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#…
8 years in a row. I can understand the perspective of someone who spent years honing their craft in C/C++ and not wanting to learn a new language. But, the Harassment of the "Rust in Linux Lead" is ridiculous. I'm not saying you are harassing. But, saying it's a tech bro thing is just negative and doesn't do justice to how many devs just like rust.
x00za
in reply to λλλ • • •λλλ
in reply to x00za • • •x00za
in reply to λλλ • • •zygo_histo_morpheus
in reply to λλλ • • •λλλ
in reply to zygo_histo_morpheus • • •refalo
in reply to λλλ • • •λλλ
in reply to refalo • • •Nanook
in reply to λλλ • • •SparrowRanjitScaur
Unknown parent • • •nous
in reply to Kairos • • •Vincent
Unknown parent • • •Giooschi
in reply to PushButton • • •Zig is safer than C, but not on a level that is comparable to Rust, so it lacks its biggest selling point. Unfortunately just being a more modern language is not enough to sell it.
C++ was not added to Linux because Linus Torvalds thought it was an horrible language, not because it was not possible to integrate in the kernel.
InverseParallax
in reply to Kairos • • •2 things:
khorovodoved
in reply to Giooschi • • •ReversalHatchery
in reply to blackbrook • • •1, 90 or 9 minutes, in any case it needs a speaker to be watched, and often mobile data cap when not at home.
and a fair amount of rewinds for a lot of non-native english ~~speakers~~ knowers
ReversalHatchery
Unknown parent • • •The Ramen Dutchman
in reply to Kairos • • •And because it looks like C, JavaScript, Bash and a few others all mixed up together.
I've heard Rust described as “Rust is what you get when you put all the good features of other programming languages together. You can't read it, but it's freaking fast!”
teolan
in reply to khorovodoved • • •teolan
in reply to PushButton • • •Zig is a very new and immature language. It won't be kernel-ready for at l'East another 10 years.
That's pretty suggestive. Rust syntax is pretty good. Postfix
tryis just better for example.Zig also uses special syntax for things like error and nullability instead of having them just be enums, making the language more complex and less flexible for no benefit.
Syntax is also not everything. Rust has extremely good error messages. Going through Zig's learning documentation, half the error messages are unreadable because I have to scroll to see the actual error and data because it's on the same line as the absolute path as the file were the error comes from
That's a library design question, not a language question. Rust for Linux uses its own data collections that don't perform hidden memory allocations instead of the ones from the standard library.
... show moreI don't know, Rust is one of the m
Zig is a very new and immature language. It won't be kernel-ready for at l'East another 10 years.
That's pretty suggestive. Rust syntax is pretty good. Postfix
tryis just better for example.Zig also uses special syntax for things like error and nullability instead of having them just be enums, making the language more complex and less flexible for no benefit.
Syntax is also not everything. Rust has extremely good error messages. Going through Zig's learning documentation, half the error messages are unreadable because I have to scroll to see the actual error and data because it's on the same line as the absolute path as the file were the error comes from
That's a library design question, not a language question. Rust for Linux uses its own data collections that don't perform hidden memory allocations instead of the ones from the standard library.
I don't know, Rust is one of the most readablelangueage for me.
Is it still the case once you have a very large project and make use of comptime?
Not true. Because it doesn't have the guardrails that rust has, you must build a mental model of where the guardrails should be so you don't make mistakes. Arguably this is something that C maintainers already know how to do, but it's also not something they do flawlessly from just looking at the bugs that regularly need to be fixed.
Being able to write code faster does not equate being able to write correct code faster.
Yes, because it's basically C with some syntax sugar. Rust is a Generational change.
The Ramen Dutchman
in reply to PushButton • • •qaz
in reply to The Ramen Dutchman • • •toastal
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
in reply to toastal • • •cs.columbia.edu/~rgu/publicati…
toastal
in reply to ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ • • •toastal
in reply to ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ • • •Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you use Coq to prove your theroem, then need to rewrite it in something else. I think there is some OCaml integration, but OCaml—while having create performance for a high level language & fairly predictable output—isn’t well-suited for very low-level kernel code. The difference in the ATS case (with the ML syntax similarity 🤘) is you can a) write it all in a single language & b) you can interweave proof, type, & value-level code thru the language instead of separating them; which means your functions need to make the proof-level asserts inside their bodies to satisfy the compiler if written with these requirements, or the type level asserting the linear type usage with value-level requirements to if allocating memory, must deallocate memory as well as compeletly prevent double free & use after free.
For those in the back: Rust can’t do this with its affine types only preventing using a resource multiple times (at most once), where linear types say you must
... show moreCorrect me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you use Coq to prove your theroem, then need to rewrite it in something else. I think there is some OCaml integration, but OCaml—while having create performance for a high level language & fairly predictable output—isn’t well-suited for very low-level kernel code. The difference in the ATS case (with the ML syntax similarity 🤘) is you can a) write it all in a single language & b) you can interweave proof, type, & value-level code thru the language instead of separating them; which means your functions need to make the proof-level asserts inside their bodies to satisfy the compiler if written with these requirements, or the type level asserting the linear type usage with value-level requirements to if allocating memory, must deallocate memory as well as compeletly prevent double free & use after free.
For those in the back: Rust can’t do this with its affine types only preventing using a resource multiple times (at most once), where linear types say you must use once & can only use once.
☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
in reply to toastal • • •mac
Unknown parent • • •I also dont like videos for this stuff. Summarized using kagi's universal summarizer, sharing here:
- The integration of Rust into the Linux kernel has been a contentious topic, with some long-term maintainers resisting the changes required for memory-safe Rust code.
- The debate over Rust vs. C in the Linux kernel has taken on "almost religious overtones" in certain areas, reflecting the differing design philosophies and expectations.
- Linus Torvalds sees the Rust discussion as a positive thing, as it has "livened up some of the discussions" and shows how much people care about the kernel.
- Not everyone in the kernel community understands everything about the kernel, and specialization is common - some focus on drivers, others on architectures, filesystems, etc. The same is true for Rust and C.
- Linus does not think the Rust integration is a failure, as it's still early, and even if it were, that's how the community learns and improves.
- The challenge is that Rust's memory-safe architecture requires changes to the existing infrastructure
... show moreI also dont like videos for this stuff. Summarized using kagi's universal summarizer, sharing here:
steeznson
in reply to teolan • • •teolan
in reply to steeznson • • •Like sudo that has had zero days lurking for 10 years?
I'm not advocating for reimplementing stuff for no good reason though.
markstos
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •Auli
in reply to steeznson • • •Arthur Besse
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •This video is full of jarring edits which initially made me wonder if someone had cut out words or phrases to create an abbreviated version. But, then I realized there are way too many of them to have been done manually. I checked the full original video and from the few edits i manually checked it seems like it is just inconsequential pauses etc that were removed: for instance, when Linus says "the other side of that picture" in the original there is an extra "p" sound which is removed here.
Yet another irritating and unnecessary application of neural networks, I guess.
Mexigore
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •The Ramen Dutchman
in reply to ReversalHatchery • • •secret300
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •