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Bitcoin is pure, pure evil
Bitcoin’s energy use per dollar generated now exceeds that of mining copper or gold
Bitcoin mining significantly increases PM2.5 pollution, the tiny airborne particles linked to respiratory and heart disease.
Each bitcoin mining rig has a short shelf life of about 1.3 years. Once outdated, they’re dumped
Bitcoin mining needs massive water cooling systems
reshared this
Thanks for sharing this article! What I like to know is how bad is Bitcoin mining for the environment compared to fiat money.
Some of the aspects mentioned in the article are probably valid for fiat money as well e.g. when a country uses only fossil energy that in doesn't matter if you use computers for the fiat system or for Bitcoin mining. Same for water usage.
But it is crazy that the hardware can only be used for little more than a year. I hope the hardware in the fiat system is used longer but I'm not sure.
Bitcoin is vastly more damaging and polluting that ordinary money:
The number of VISA transactions that could be powered by the energy consumed for a single Bitcoin transaction: 742,132
The number of VISA transactions with a carbon footprint equal to the footprint of a single Bitcoin transaction: 1,363,557
digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energ…
Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index - Digiconomist
The Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index provides the latest estimate of the total energy consumption of the Bitcoin network.Digiconomist
@knasterbax owners don't consume any power. Owning #Bitcoin only means keeping a secret information.
Miners could be charged a tax, but it should be proportional to the amount of energy consumed, not to the amount of Bitcoin mined (which could be done out of luck too).
At least in my country taxes proportional to power consumption are actually already charged in the utility bills, btw.
@birkenator @the_q @chikl
it's bad comparison though. the amount of energy bitcoin uses for the same amount of transactions is a fucking joke
The US dollar requires the entire US military and US government to back it up.
The US military is the worst thing we can do to the environment.
#FreeSchool ⬅️ (see hashtag) reshared this.
I agree that BTC has been co-opted by Wall Street and central bankers.
That's not what your post was about though.
I'm pushing back on the mis-leading article you posted about energy usage. It ignores the facts.
BTC mining is using tons of "green energy." Much more than the federal reserve.
"The ‘Cambridge Digital Mining Industry Report’ says the 52.4% use of sustainable energy sources for Bitcoin mining, which includes 9.8% nuclear and 42.6% renewables such as hydropower and wind, compares to a 2022 estimate of 37.6% overall sustainable energy use."
jbs.cam.ac.uk/2025/cambridge-s…
Cambridge study: sustainable energy rising in Bitcoin mining - News & insight - Cambridge Judge Business School
The use of sustainable energy sources for Bitcoin mining has grown to 52.4% finds a new study by Cambridge Judge Business School.Ruth Newkeen (Cambridge Judge Business School)
@KarlinEcuador Oh, please don't peddle the bitcoin green energy scam. Why does every single thing about bitcoin have to be a scam?
"In this study, we located the 34 largest mines in the US in 2022, identified the electricity-generating plants, and pinpointed communities most harmed by Bitcoin mine-attributable air pollution. From mid-2022 to mid-2023, the 34 mines consumed 32.3 terawatt-hours of electricity—33% more than Los Angeles—85% of which came from fossil fuels."
nature.com/articles/s41467-025…
The environmental burden of the United States’ bitcoin mining boom - Nature Communications
The paper maps air pollution from power plants supplying electricity to US Bitcoin mines. It finds that 1.9 million people in 2022-2023 breathed toxic amounts of Bitcoin mine attributable pollution, particularly around New York City and Houston.Nature
Read the scientific study I showed you. If you read mine, I'll read your second one. At least I read your first article.
BTC uses much more "green energy" than in recent years...often using wasted energy.
In Texas, its actually a useful store of excess power from wind turbines during "off-hours."
The most destructive technology I know is the federal reserve...but...hey.
How much death and destruction has been spread to protect the US Dollar?
I'd much rather have the world's reserve currency be BTC than the US dollar.
The US Dollar is much, much worse.
I get it. You don't like Trump.
However, Trump is mostly into "shit-coins." There is Bitcoin and everything else is "shit-coins."
I agree...those are useless tools of Wall Street that Biden and Trump used to avoid campaign financing laws.
@KarlinEcuador I read that "study" months ago. A bitcoin puff piece. Don't they try and include nuclear and hydro as part of "green" energy?
This is a double con here. First, claiming that there's such a thing as "green" energy. That's energy industry propaganda.
Then claiming that the totally amoral use of energy, water and materials for bitcoin gambling and speculation tokens somehow becomes ok if the gangsters doing it chose the "right" type of energy.
@KarlinEcuador "Green energy" is a scam so it is no wonder that nuclear and hydro are part of the "Green" energy scam.
Yes, strip mining for rare earths is classified and green and clean because it's needed for wind machines, where 1 GW of wind energy causes 600,000 tons of toxic, often radioactive (uranium, thorium) waste. But it's all green and clean and renewable, we're told. Scams upon scams upon scams.
@KarlinEcuador
this is a really stupid comment
obviously the govt and the military have other benefits than propping up the dollar, even if you hate those benefits
while bitcoin guzzles massive amount of energy to move a few transactions so some cult of gamblers can make "number go up"
you can't possibly be serious with this comment
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@stephengentle
A really excellent summary of the pure pointless environmental destruction that is involved in bitcoin. The deep, malign gangsterism of it all, the willful and greedy destruction. It's greed and malice all the way down. No wonder Trump mafia family are all in on bitcoin.
If I were to hire a hitman, I would be paying with cash, not leaving a permanent, publicly available record on the blockchain.
Then youre smarter than Ross Ulbricht
So explain to me your point. What are these amazing tx you need crypto for
i know what defi is and i'm facepalming that's your answer
well anyway i hope you enjoyed your little "good god man, you don't know" performance here today
but you made an assertion which is false
we don't need crypto for anything except wasting the time of dreamers on a dead end folly
that some make money off the backs of chumps in the grift factory doesn't justify it it just brings into further relief what crypto is really all about
@benroyce @stephengentle @chikl
"Oh, I know ALL about DeFi, believe me! That's where you go to hire a hitman." 🙄
But, sure. Let me go into nuanced detail of complex financial instruments so you can slap on some though-terminating cliche about grift; while distracting for the central point I was trying to make (see my original comment).
I don't care what you do, I don't have anything to sell you. I was just expressing an opinion.
Have a good day!👋
it's a neat trick
you make vague assertions, i try to engage in good faith to figure out what you mean, then you use that as a basis to mock
😆
i'm not kidding, that's funny, i like that song and dance
of course, it shows your level of seriousness, but so be it
crypto bros after all are losers
"Have a good day!👋"
go slip on dogshit my good friend
Bitcoin is especially bad for energy consumption (see link below), and that cost is exacerbated by the insane amounts of hardware that miners use to keep up in the competition to mine the remaining Bitcoin as the price, difficulty and competition increases (it was once possible to mine Bitcoin on a low power CPU).
Not all crypto is the same though, and the more energy efficient currencies use less energy than Visa.
daytrading.com/cryptocurrency/…
The Greenest Cryptos: Which Coins Use the Least Energy?
Report into which cryptocurrencies are the best for environment with side-by-side comparisons of energy consumption per digital transaction.Paul Holmes (Daytrading.com)
Hard to disagree currently, especially in the case of Bitcoin.
That said - and given that Bitcoin and many other cryptocurrencies were developed on the back of the 2008 financial crash as an alternative to the commercial banking system - I'm also quite sympathetic to the idea that Bitcoin is an example of good intentions with bad outcomes.
Kinda like the CFC chap: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_M….
I agree. My preference would be Technocracy: technate.org/tiki-index.php?pa…
It's entirely possible that the window for making this possible has already closed, but there will need to be a thorough study done to prove if this is true or not, one comparable to the one performed by the people who invented Technocracy in the first place (the study was called the Energy Survey of North America). Until then, I think that we have to assume that it is still possible. The efficiencies that Technocracy's design can achieve can solve a lot of the waste of our current society. But we can't afford to wait too long, because our chances are diminishing all the time. We have to work as hard as we can right now.
@LordCaramac @ReggieHere @chikl
That is what largely what Technocracy is all about. It's a system entirely designed by science, which is our best understanding of nature and how it works. It's a system that emphasizes scientific progress, because good science acknowledges its limitations so we should learn all we can with it so we can be even more in accordance with nature's laws. And one of its primary design parameters is to be sustainable, so that human society can live in harmony with our natural environment, instead of simply exploiting it for gain like our current society does.
So really your points are a big part of the reason why we should adopt Technocracy. 🙂
More technology is more complex than less technology. More complexity is more difficult to comprehend. That which we cannot comprehend, we cannot control. Ergo, bad actors can use technology, any technology, to conceal their actions and avoid consequences. Technology inevitably leads to tyranny, simply because we can't see it coming.
Just a head's up. I used to think technocracy was a good idea too.
CC: @LordCaramac@discordian.social @ReggieHere@mastodon.social @chikl@digitalcourage.social @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
@cy
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it. This just seems overly simplistic. Perhaps if you could detail a plausible scenario that would guarantee the result you envision, perhaps then.
Taxes, for instance. Rich people don't pay taxes. Nobody can change this, because the tax system is so complex it's impossible to avoid all the loopholes. Another example is the stock market (and debt in general). Computers can trade slave contracts / stocks millions of times faster than humans, so whoever's richest (with the fastest data centers) makes all the money. There's the education system (in the USA at least), where nobody can change anything who can't afford massive propaganda and bribes, because there are too many other factors that everyone else depends on.
There's money itself.
CC: @LordCaramac@discordian.social @ReggieHere@mastodon.social @chikl@digitalcourage.social @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
@murdoc
With the advent of the Scientific Revolution began the death of Nature, the destruction of nature. The scientific obsession with controlling and dominating nature is what has lead us to the point where we are hurtling into the Sixth Great Mass Extinction. Here's a book worth reading for greater context:
The Death of Nature, Carolyn Merchant, Harper and Row, 1980
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deat…
That's simply not true. Science is a tool, and like any tool can be used for good or ill. It has been other ideologies that have misused it for their own, destructive ends. Those same ideologies have a vested interest in turning the public against science because it threatens their control over people. These anti-science stances are playing right into their hands.
And that's just the most conservative interpretation. Personally, I believe that with what science has taught us, we can not only live in harmony with nature, but it also teaches us how to be good to each other as well. Only science can save us.
The humans of the future, if there are any, if Homo sapiens can escape extinction, will have to do with much less technology, but not with less science.
@LordCaramac
Not sure if you read Death of Nature by Carolyn Merchant but she makes a very strong case that the Scientific Revolution depended on turning Mother Nature into a whore that could be pillaged. Modern science emerged from a hardcore male dominance. When Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring, she was savaged by chemical man. Science has been far, far from objective.
@LordCaramac
I agree with basically everything you say here except I would replace the word science with the word ethics. The most important challenges we face are moral, social and ethical. And I believe by far the biggest threat to all life is the male of our species. Men have gone way out of balance and are leading all life to ruin. Toxic, macho men, that is.
@LordCaramac @murdoc @ReggieHere @chikl
I agree we should mostly look at the past for solutions, and i agree that before using scientific discoveries to build technologies we should be very cautious about their ecological sustainability, but: there are technologies that can destroy the earth even if used very little, like atomic bombs, and there are technologies that would be sustainable only if just one million people used them, like a thermoelectric power plant burning fossil fuels, and there are technologies which would probably do no harm to the global environment even today, like old windmills or watermills, and there are technologies which actually are good for the environment too, like some techniques to cultivate.
(1/2)
@LordCaramac @murdoc @ReggieHere @chikl
So i think that the main point now is turning off the polluting means of production and take the industrially cultivated lands to cultivate them without polluting, which is possible, «it is possible to cultivate without resorting to fossil fuels burning [...] by practicing agroforestry and permaculture, that are more productive than industrial agricolture and don’t pollute, and we could also help ourselves with the most advanced fungal solutions»
, in order to make it possible to use the sustainable technologies we have and "resume" the old that we had and slowly, very cautiously test the new technologies that science may produce. bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s…(2/2)
Also, we will probably lose many technologies no matter whether they could be made sustainable or not, because the collapse of the Industrial Age has already begun and can't be reversed. We are living at the end of a civilisation, whatever comes after us will have to be so radically different that it cannot be interpreted as continuation of this modern culture.
How the collapse will play out, how many people will die, what will be lost and what can be preserved, all that is still not fixed, we can still influence all these things with our actions. But we won't save the dying Age of the Machines. Just like any organism dies eventually, also every culture, every civilisation, every age of the world comes to an end, there is nothing we can do about that. Death is inevitable.
@LordCaramac @ReggieHere @chikl
What you talk about there, making things that last, is very much one of the many things that Technocracy already proposes to reduce waste and inefficiency. I think that you agree with more of it than you think.
But if you just want to give up and not even try, then I guess that's you're choice. For me, given a choice between a small chance and none, I'll take the small chance. Especially when there is a good plan just waiting to be used. I don't want the selfish people to win if I can help it.
@LordCaramac @ReggieHere @chikl
In the end, no, no one wins. But the rich and powerful today will win a lot longer than if we were to put an end to their stupid system.
And yeah, you've given up trying to save the plane by telling people to assume the crash position. I mean, I get it, when you don't see any other alternative, that seems pretty reasonable. But just because you don't see an answer doesn't mean that there isn't one. So you've given up on looking for one, or even looking at ones proposed to you.
And like I said, even if we try and it doesn't work, things would be less bad than if we don't, which is what you say you want.
If we can adopt Technocracy, then we'll be in a much better position to do this. It would be a logical part of Technocracy's goal. And the sooner we do it, the easier it will be.
Of course, but Technocracy is the only real chance of avoiding that fate. Otherwise yes, I agree, the collapse is inevitable. Heck, Technocracy was the first to predict it, and explain exactly why. It was designed specifically because of this problem.
Sorry that i wasn't clear. What I meant was that the collapse is inevitable if we don't get Technocracy operational. Like I said, this was precisely what it was designed to deal with.
True. I doubt that those people are oblivious to the environmental threats, but no one in finance, politics, investment or business wants to bail out of the system before its peak because they have an aversion to falling behind when others are still making huge profits from being inside.....and if no one else seems worried then there's no reason to worry, right?
It's a horrible mix of cognitive dissonance, BTFD and FOMO.
Of course. That's why I am advocating Technocracy. In that system, there are no politicians or financiers. Nothing to get in the way of doing what we need to to create a sustainable society for the benefit of all.
Of course there will be. They will just be warlords, ruling ruthlessly over numerous petty kingdoms.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
Accelerationism is the most dangerous form of defeatism. It not only makes us ignore any available solutions, but actually harms our ability to enact them.
And why can't those be controlled by warlords? Violent groups can scale down to street gang level. Or even a pair of people.
@LordCaramac @ReggieHere @muminitaly @chikl
Those people that will feed them are called conquered subjects. We have a long history of that strategy.
And even if our numbers do deplete enough, warriors initially arose from hunters. I don't think it will be a difficult transition for them to go back to that.
And, who knows? Maybe in five or ten million years, another species of humans that evolve from those of us who make it through the bottleneck start all kinds of civilisations again. They will probably never see a second Industrial Age since we burned through all those fossil fuels, but humans made and did a lot of awesome things even without big machines that need a lot of power.
@LordCaramac
And that's exactly it. Nature will have its way with us a lot sooner than we think. We think we're so clever and that will lead to our ruin. We are a species overflowing in intelligence and almost totally lacking in wisdom.
Things get confusing when we live in cities: more people more density and they need to move about to go make things to share.
The industrial revolution created many of the problems like density and developed crude systems to deal with them: those have negative impacts on earth.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
I take your point, but the values in the article are per transaction, and distributed networks typically scale well enough to compete with centralised systems.....which is something of a problem for those on this thread that want to 'ban' crypto, because decentralised networks are also pretty resilient.
Whether the low energy PoS systems are secure enough to compete at scale, or indeed if anyone would want an alternative to CC systems is a whole other question.
1. it only benefits those in the network that already own most of the currency, discouraging anyone who doesn't own everything to ever use it
2. cryptocurrency as a whole has never addressed the fraud or crime problems it causes and enables, and unlike fiat currency it is nearly impossible to effectively regulate against this
Yes, that's the security issue, and Bitcoin has the same 50% problem.
Crypto has largely replaced fiat currency as the medium to shady transactions,,but I'm not sure it caused any that didn't already exist.
#CryptoWaste #CryptoScam
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
"Bitcoin’s energy use per dollar generated"
That's a very strange thing to measure though. It's like complaining on our existing financial system - all tellers, ATMs, cash transports etc by commenting on how money is printed by the governments.
@troed
the problem with your assertion is that all of that money moving around by traditional means is inefficient by some measures
but the "alternative" (in the minds of #bitcoin morons) is already using massive amounts of energy so a small dumb ass cult can play hype grift games
to scale bitcoin up to handle the world economy would require harnessing the energy of many suns
in other words, bitcoin is a joke
it's for dimwits playing a casino, nothing more
reshared this
Your statement is provably wrong. Bitcoin's energy needs doesn't scale with usage.
If you're going to call others "morons" it's prudent to first acquire basic knowledge on the topic discussed.
@troed
you were supposed to segue into the "#bitcoin lightning network" sales pitch
that is the appropriate psychological defense mechanism for you to play at this point in your denial of the obvious reality bitcoin is a joke and dead end for what you perceive it to be in your feverish devotion to casino grift
btw, in case it escaped your attention:
bitcoin is a cult
for morons
so sorry my language in dealing with cult morons is not appropriately respectful to said morons
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
I mean you're free to claim things that simply aren't true. Myself I try to avoid doing so when discussing a topic.
Our definition of "moronic" thus differs.
I think you should read this great post on how the purpose of posting on social media should be enlightenment:
mastodon.social/@benroyce/1125…
Let's reiterate: Your claim that Bitcoin's energy usage would require the output from multiple suns to replace our current financial system is pure ignorance, at best, but since you keep it up I guess lying on purpose is more apt.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 (@benroyce@mastodon.social)
Attached: 1 image this gif is all #socialmedia ever was, is, or will be people blowing off steam, sometimes in impressive ways so go ahead and enjoy yourself you can complain and shitpost, of course you can get into arguments now and then it's …Ben Royce 🇺🇦 (Mastodon)
@troed
i deeply apologize
when strange religious cults coming knocking on my door and they say "read this" as they hand me pamphlets i'm not very interested
you believe what you want to believe friend
just like:
people who think vaccines kill and surviving covid raw is the way
or those who think poor russia is justified engaging in ethnofascist imperialism because scary NATO
there are cult morons in this world
reality has nothing to do with what you believe about #bitcoin
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@benroyce @troed One big problem here that I don't want to let pass by silently is that Troed is talking about Bitcoin as if it was currency, and it is not. If Bitcoin was used as currency, sure, talking about the energy usage would be like talking about the energy usage of dollars.
But Bitcoin is used as an investment. Nobody* is buying and selling stuff with bitcoin.
*negligible amounts, legally at least
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that's the essential trick:
"price go up" is all they care about
so any criticism of the unsound basis of their cult casino- they must refute it. for the cult belief and their greed
@adriano @benroyce @troed It is also, fundamentally, not architected to be currency. The blockchain cannot secure a transaction at a McDonald's for a hamburger at a rate that makes any party in the transaction comfortable handing over any amount of BTC for a burger.
To generate and bury the blocks that would require that security in the time it takes to make it secure... I haven't done the math on that but i would be willing to bet it would ballpark in the range of "one planet's total solar budget."
Or, you can use BTC as a long-term storage and proxy your trust through a shorter-term "day trading" account. In which case... What's the point of BTC if I'm already trusting strangers who can just steal my money out of the day-trading account?
As Tom7 once wisely opined, to paraphrase: "bitcoin solves a problem people do not have: establishing trade between people who fundamentally don't want to trust each other."
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What's your opinion on how Bitcoin saved Ukraine in the beginning of the full scale invasion?
You did know, right?
i think it's wonderful ukraine used crypto to fund itself
i also note how crypto libertarians support and fund far right fascist political agendas around the world
what is your opinion of trump or putin?
and how does putin move money?
and what does trump's huge crypto grift mean to you?
crypto is a right wing thing my friend
there is no championing of the people in it
it's just a con job for selfish fucks to lie about their motivations
like how you lie to yourself
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
I despise "crypto". As I wrote in another post - all *coins "invented" after Bitcoin are scams.
I am however capable on discussing the subject while keeping to the facts.
yes, i understand i am speaking to a feverish true believer in the cult
"while keeping to the facts"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
🤣 🤣 🤣
is that what we're calling denial and topic change nowadays?
a valid point
and crypto libertarians, flush on crypto cash, are amongst the most feverish supporters and funders of far right political agendas working hard to kill trans rights, and democracy
i would rather have openly legally supported trans rights in truly democratic societies
rather than the need for trans people to dabble in crypto to get a shadow of their rights, all the while the fascists crypto libertarians fund are trying to kill trans people
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@benroyce @troed
That's besides the point.
Crypto is basically the only way to buy things on black of grey markets. As corporate and government systems can't be trusted to not be evil, and generally having to rely on authority for basic needs is bad, crypto has good uses.
The claim that its a worthless scam is nonsense.
@AeonCypher @troed
if you're going to give up on govt and go all-in on black market crypto, what makes you believe a fully fascist govt, because you gave up on govt and so it slides to worse, isn't going to crack down on that?
the idea that crypto is untraceable is one of the biggest lies out there
the truth is crypto is eminently more traceable than plain fiat
i don't have a single argument with the need to support trans people
but your particular way to do so is a dead end
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
^ This. It hadn't come up yet, but it's always worth remembering:
BTC transactions are pseudonymous, not anonymous. There may be other cryptocurrencies that are anonymous; I don't know the zoology of the systems these days.
But if your concern for BTC, specifically, is "I need it because my government will punish me if they know what I'm buying..." You're making an indelible global public record of your purchase events! It's only a matter of time, resources, and will for a hostile government actor to figure it out.
(... as if it wouldn't be obvious when a person transitions, so you also set yourself up for the bonus activity of "The government thinks you bought your hormones with crypto; they're going to lock you in a hole and hit you with a lead pipe every night until you cough up your private keys." xkcd.com/538/)
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@mark @benroyce @AeonCypher @troed BTC is traceable pseudonymous garbage, agreed. #Monero is untraceable anonymous digital cash. Even the IRS tried to crack it and failed. reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/z…
Meanwhile, using BTC even once will make you fully traceable dlnews.com/articles/people-cul…
Monero-only hacker IntelBroker caught after accepting Bitcoin from FBI
IntelBroker exclusively used Monero to avoid detection. The FBI lured him into using Bitcoin. He accepted Bitcoin once — and it led to his arrest.Ekin Genç (DL News)
@hyc @mark @AeonCypher @troed
true, and how long do you think monero will last under a straight out fascist govt
"they can't do anything about it!"
oh dear
@AeonCypher @hyc @mark @troed
they don't have to
in fact, they could honeypot it
remember, the point is cruelty, not technological comprehensiveness
i facepalmed so hard my ears are ringing
think endpoints
think moving funds between systems
think honeypotting
etc
to put so much fervent hope in technological utopian dreams and not consider simple cruelty that does not give a single fucking shit about how you are violated or even if you're guilty of anything
it's just
...it's so sad
In 11 years of the Monero network operating, it's pretty naive of you to think that nobody has been thinking of those things. There have been multiple honeypot attacks, none were able to gather information of statistical significance. Maybe endpoints can be apprehended, but that doesn't give away anything else on the network. Nobody can protect you if the govt comes after *you*. But Monero won't give away your associates. Unlike other crypto.
*sigh*
my friend, there is no such thing as a lock built by a human that another human cannot break
and for all the good uses of monero, you know there are uses that will attract very powerful enemies
so, i say continue with your tech utopian dreams
until it all comes crashing down
and it will
all it requires is passing a threshold of attention generated
remember my words
@benroyce @mark @AeonCypher @troed
> there is no such thing as a lock built by a human that another human cannot break
That may be true, but in digital cryptography it may take so many millions of years of compute power as to be indistinguishable from "unbreakable".
Breaking a lock isn't just an exercise in a vacuum, there is a time element. If the lock cannot be broken within X amount of time, it's no longer relevant. Whatever the lock protected isn't worth it, or is gone.
howard you don't understand what i'm getting at
the point is not technological comprehensiveness, that entire argument is moot
the point is how human cruelty would go about sniffing out that you use a certain tool
that entire endeavor has absolutely nothing to do with all the tech assertions you make
you think you are protected by something that offers no protection at all
the methods a cruel person without rules employs is the point
"but you can't prove i have monero or that i made a monero transaction"
they don't care howard
they sniff out signs, valid or not
you're talking court of law, with rights and proof of guilt
they don't care about any of that
"who?"
not even just govts howard
when you go dark and abandon above board legitimacy, there are those out there who sniff out your activity and go after you in incredibly unfair and cruel ways
simply because they can
to summarize the entire problem:
when you go dark on your financial activity, there are entities in that dark who consider you fair game for the most unfair practices. they sniff you out, and if you're big enough of a whale, you are absolutely fucked
govt entity or not a govt entity
all the arguments about tech on that topic then are completely meaningless
you think certain protections still apply to you when you have abandoned those protections
@benroyce @hyc @mark @AeonCypher @troed Seems like the problem here is the same as with goldbugging. Great, now you have some off the books value. What do you do with it? You can't spend it in your daily life. Maybe it would get you out of a jam in some hypothetical doomish scenario. Although the first time you try to spend some of it face to face, you are likely to get shaken down for the rest of it.
What problem are you trying to solve? That is the first question.
@benroyce @troed Crypto is not really any more traceable than cash. You have digital transference you can be careful with or not, the same as with physical transference.
Also, again, not all cryptos are created equal. A distributed ledger doesn't actually have to track every single exchange that ever took place: see also circulating currency.
@AeonCypher @troed
wait
so it is your belief, under a fascist govt, they have no way to control crypto?
take monero
now think like a fascist govt cyber security analyst tasked with rooting that out
think about endpoints. think about moving funds outside the crypto. and think about not giving shit about how people with those endpoints traced to them are treated
you need to focus on the quality of your govt. if you drop that topic and go all in on black market, you're fucked
that would seem like a liability for anonymity. they are going to go after the servers
@benroyce @troed Yeah, of course, that's why it being distributed is important. Take down a server, and the ledger remains.
You can run a currency by just having a ledger on a server, but it's taken down by taking down the server.
Taking down all the servers is not possible.
Hosts don't have to be anonymous.
right but now you're talking about technical robustness
i'm not talking about the structural soundness of the system
i'm talking about govts, or other entities, that want to go after you personally
but even if we disagree on something, i got nothing but love for you aeon. i feel where you're coming from
@benroyce @troed To be clear, this isn't just an issue of trans people getting their medicine.
We have seen corporations happy to buddy up with fascism.
The credit card processors are already banning "porn", and are on the verge of banning paying for anything queer.
There are so many reasons why it's useful in the kind of world we're in.
None of which makes me in any way happy with crypto generally. It's mostly scams and the most popular ones are needlessly destructive.
i can't argue with that
very well said
and i feel you
we need to fight for the quality of our govts
it's not easy, but it's the only way to get at the root of the abuse
until then, i support what you're saying about a reason to use crypto. i recognize your rationale, i acknowledge it, i support it. it's a stopgap until better
@troed @benroyce Doesn't it takes more computation to mint a block with more transactions in it? More usage of the network --> more transactions --> more bits to hash for every attempt at computing the next block, right? Or did I miss an optimization where they can pre-hash the payload and then do a second pass to hash the nonce (which shouldn't be possible because the whole point of a hash is disbursing the entropy)?
Even if I am mistaken, I'm not sure this argument goes where you want it to because payload size isn't the dominant cost of the network: the dominant cost is adding entire nodes to do completely-redundant work. The system could, hypothetically, run on one node, hashing every transaction. It'd be slower and violate the trust expectations, but it would work. Except that one node's owner would get every new bitcoin.
... which means the system's energy needs don't scale with usage...
... they scale with greed.
That's.... That's worse, right? You see how that's worse?
@mark
No, that's not at all how it works. Finding the "solution" to a block has nothing to do with the transactions in it.
@troed @benroyce Well now here you're just theoretically wrong. I feel like Boris Shcherbina in Chernobyl: I don't know a lot about Bitcoin, but I know algorithms.
SHA-256 hash is a θ(n) algorithm on message length. More transactions in one block --> longer message --> more expensive hash per attempt.
Are you arguing that transaction blocks all fit into one parallelized run on modern hardware, so that's irrelevant because theta is the wrong measurement right now? If so, that's true today and becomes less true over time if we assume BTC sees wide enough adoption for people to have it as part of their daily use.
@mark
It would take you less time to read up on how it works and verify what I'm saying compared to just posting your own gut feelings over and over.
coincenter.org/education/crypt…
Understanding Bitcoin’s energy use
Why does Bitcoin consume electricity? Does energy usage increase with the number of transactions? Can we compare Bitcoin's energy usage to traditionalCoin Center
@troed @benroyce That article you just shared to me says what I said up-thread. To quote:
"""
As we’ve learned above, miner energy usage moves up or down with the amount of competition between miners, not the number of transactions being validated
"""
They have hand-waved the argument (and are also, technically, wrong; it scales with both and is dominated by competition between miners. Energy cost also goes up as network use increases, but that is dwarfed by another sucker getting yanked into the get-rich-quick scheme of trying to buy enough compute to reliably mint new BTC by solving blocks with lowest hash). This reenforces the point I made up-thread, to wit:
"""
I'm not sure this argument goes where you want it to because payload size isn't the dominant cost of the network: the dominant cost is adding entire nodes to do completely-redundant work.
"""
You've confirmed that the system scales with greed. To re-ask the question I asked up-thread: That's worse, right? You see how that's worse?
@mark @troed
troed's method of "argument" is to feed you cult indoctrination and hand wave away the radioactively obvious
troed is a cultist
you're not going to make any progress arguing facts with troed, because troed is not acting in good faith. only empty blank denial of the obvious, and they are prepared to go down the endless rabbit hole of "this is true" "no it's not" "this is true" "no it's not" ad infinitum to continue to live in denial of reality
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
@mark
Alright so you've admitted that energy usage is decoupled from the number of transactions. Awesome.
The competition to be "the one" that finds a low enough hash to "win" a block reward is what makes sure Bitcoin transactions can be _trusted_ - and solving decentralized trust (the Byzantine Generals' problem) was the whole invention Bitcoin brought so that's kind of a big thing.
However, spending energy has a cost (duh) - so it's not possible for an unlimited amount of people doing so. They'll just go bankrupt. Therefor, your argument about scaling with "greed" doesn't work either.
At some point you might want to think about whether you actually know as much as you think you do on the topic.
decoupled
🙄 No, I haven't, and I'm not sure I have the patience today to walk you through what big-theta, big-omega, and big-O mean to explain why if you don't already know. If you don't know what those mean, just let me know and I'll be happy to direct you to the relevant Wikipedia articles.
The rest of your comment reenforces that we both agree that the dominant cost is greed-driven, and I doubt we'll arrive at consensus on greed being good. I've had people since Reagan telling me it is, and you're not doing a better job than they did, friend.
was the whole invention Bitcoin brought so that's kind of a big thing.
Ugh... we knew for half a century you could minimize the Byzantine Generals risk with incredible waste of energy. If the general relays the message by sending his whole army to relay it, of course it arrives; he sent the whole army.
What distinguishes bitcoin is that a critical mass of people stupid enough to implement that solution showed up.
@mark
You still seem to believe the verification of transactions is done differently than it actually is, and you use your ignorance on the topic as an argument for why you're right.
Instead, why don't you assume I'm a crypto (as in encryption) specialist and I do know exactly how it works?
Because you're not willing to assume I'm a computer scientist and know how computers and algorithms work so I can spot an obvious untruth or omission when it's incompatible with Freshman undergrad algorithmic theory? You want to reset expectations?
You could start with no longer assuming I haven't read the spec a decade ago. To the extent I don't remember the details, it's because I have a tendency to back-burner bad ideas. 😉
You haven't addressed at all whether you know what big-theta is, so I'm not sure we're going to have a productive conversation. You're going to sit over there thinking you're right because of what a summary told you, and I'm going to sit over here knowing that SHA-256 cost goes up on length of messsage.
@mark
No. Why do you keep guessing instead of studying if you now want to discuss the topic?
Blocks are found (by changing the number the hashes need to be below) on average every 10 minutes. Their size is fixed.
If there are more transactions than fit in this space those blocks that pay less fee to the miner will be postponed, not included (thus not verified) until there's space for them. Miners select the transactions with the highest fees since that makes them more money.
Thus, it costs more to send a Bitcoin transaction if many want to send transactions at the moment. This is also an incentive to push transactions of less value on to a 2nd layer on top of Bitcoin, reserving Bitcoin block space for high value transactions ("trucking gold bars around").
@troed @benroyce ... So it doesn't fix the theta-n-on-messages problem. They just let people who pay money get committed and everyone else can pound sand until they are willing to pay. As transaction count goes up, delay goes up, and the system further de-amortizes delay via pay-for-priority.
Hey, credit where it's due: that is a solution. And a solution that violates neither math nor physics. All it took was pushing the cost to the user (while simultaneously encouraging the use of secondary stores, which are traditionally the weak link where people's money gets stolen).
Amazing solution, A++ would invest.
... Or I can just use cash and credit card.
@mark
I agree - you can absolutely use cash or a credit card if you don't need what Bitcoin offers.
I just bought a zero-g workstation from a company in Bulgaria. When checking out I noticed they take Bitcoin which I found interesting. I haven't asked them why, but I do remember a few years ago that my bank (in the EU) refused bank transfers to Bulgaria and/or Romania even though they're also EU members, due to their banking systems being regarded as "shady".
Back before Assange went rapist I also remember when the US pressured all the banks, the credit card providers and PayPal to block donations to Wikileaks. They advertised their Bitcoin address and that worked just fine.
Never assume your personal needs can be generalized for everyone.
oh come on mark, you're not being fair
remember #bitcoin was a reaction to the financial meltdown of 2008
that it is setting up the next financial meltdown, and that these #crypto #libertarian assholes are funding #fascism around the world, and that fascist financial ineptitude will make the next meltdown worse?
well, these bitcoin #cult true believers think they are fighting for themselves
and that's very special, very dear
don't hurt their feelings
🤣🤣🤣
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
@troed
"Bitcoin's energy needs doesn't scale with usage."
Oh ... so it is magic?
That's a new argument to me. I have heard all kinds of really wild arguments in support of Bitcoin, but never one that was a direct claim to magic.
Correct. It's however a pre-mined scam that is incredible insecure compared to Bitcoin.
A general rule is that all *coins that came after Bitcoin are scams, together with all ICOs, NFTs and "X, with blockchain!".
@AeonCypher @troed
"Where did this come from?"
it comes from them joining a cult, #bitcoin
and then shutting down all aspects of reality and reason with elaborate psychological defense mechanisms to preserve feverish cult devotion
All of what I said is true. Ask yourself why you didn't know, and then go and verify it.
@troed @AeonCypher
ethereum is proof of stake, not proof of work
nothing you say is true. you're a cultist constructing elaborate psychological defense mechanisms to deny what bitcoin is: an energy guzzling con for selfish losers playing a casino, be damned who or what they hurt
you lie to yourself, massively, and expect us to watch you do that and not laugh
well, we are laughing at you. because you're a blind cultist troed
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
I mean I just proved you to be a liar :D
Ethereum going to Proof of Stake instead of its original Proof of Work is what makes it less secure than Bitcoin. The reason they moved was that the blockchain gained too much in size and the storage requirements were about to make it impossible for "miners" to function.
Do you always post your gut feelings and expect people to listen to you?
no troed, what aeoncypher is saying to you is that when we see a cultist constructing endless blank denial, it's really quite embarrassing
but you don't see that, because there isn't a shred of honesty in you
all in service of your feverish cult devotion
I make sure to not post on a subject I don't know anything about.
That seems to be the difference between you and me ;) And apparently AeonCypher too, it seems.
Regarding "honesty", that is.
😂 😂 😂
troed, you don't know shit. you really really don't
oh certainly you know plenty of the theological castles-in-the-sky technicalities in your cult. as if that has anything to do with fundamentals
i swear to god you crypto cultists are the biggest pinatas of lulz ever created on this earth
This discussion started with me proving that you lie on purpose. I guess you didn't like that.
troed, i have to be careful with my words at this point, because if i were to be completely honest with you about what you think "proving that you lie" really consists of, i would be banned from mastodon for excessive cruelty
@troed @AeonCypher
it doesn't matter what i believe about myself, when you deliver such a fitting satire of the brave internet warrior in defense of the holy cult of bitcoin
🍿 🍿 🍿
whatever you do troed, never stop. it is delicious entertainment, you are the best comic relief, i love you
"[Ethereum is] however a pre-mined scam that is incredible insecure compared to Bitcoin."
to which you said:
"it's not "pre-mined". It's just a proof a stake system. It's not insecure"
Pre-mined: bitcoinist.com/ethereum-inside…
PoS less secure than PoW: d-central.tech/why-proof-of-wo…
(there's a math paper somewhere that I would need to dig up as well, but I don't think you're actually interested)
Why Proof of Work Wins: A Deep Dive into Blockchain Security Mechanisms - D-Central
Blockchain technology has rapidly evolved from a niche concept to a cornerstone of the modern digital world. At its core, a blockchain is a decentralizedKryptykHex (D-Central)
@troed @AeonCypher
poor troed
always busy constructing an elaborate reply to avoid admitting to yourself you are in a cult
all one has to do is topic change and avoid the fundamental issues someone brings up, right troed?
wow, a psychological defense mechanism a 13 year old edgelord can deploy. very impressive
🤣 🤣 🤣
Hm guys, @troed, despite his confrontational tone, is mostly right in terms of #bitcoin, and I do wish more people would actually make the effort to understand how things work before blind criticism.
BTC does not require 'several Suns' to run global transactions. As was pointed out, mining complexity does not scale with transaction volume. However BTC does have a scalability issue, in that main chain cannot manage the global num of TX. Even close.
Hi shill
Is this a segue into the "lightning network" sales pitch?
So Bitcoin wastes an insane amount of energy
Other things waste energy yes
It can waste renewable energy yes
These are all topic changes from the simple fact bitcoin is a dead end because anything that wastes as much energy as it does is a fucking joke
So sorry, I don't want to hurt your cult feelings
Wait
No actually I do
@benroyce @troed @AeonCypher lightning is potentially part of the solution but it's currently not enough. It may be with time, but I also see custodians forming a part of that as essentially banks, for smaller regular users. I didn't claim TX volume was not an issue (indeed I stated the opposite).
On other points I'd find it more interesting to discuss actual matters rather than personal attacks. The 'joke' argument has been around since it was hobbyists mining on home PCs.
Like as I'm listening to your stupid fucking endless cult sales spiel I can feel my braincells dying, but like how do you survive, cognitively, shoveling this endless moronic cult bullshit day after day after day
@benroyce @troed @AeonCypher do you plan to actually discuss the matter or do you prefer the personal attack approach?
I'm not very interested in the latter, though sometimes it can be entertaining.
Well when weird religious cults knock on your front door to try to engage you in whatever insane shit they are trying to sell you, what is your reaction, friend?
@benroyce @troed @AeonCypher I don't know, it doesn't really happen much. I'd probably say thanks, but not for me and bid them good day.
Though I fail to see the relevance.
@Setok @troed @AeonCypher
The relevance is you need to go to Twitter where there's plenty of morons who would fall for this stupid cult grift that is Bitcoin
You're not welcome on Mastodon
Fuck off, cult salesman
@benroyce @troed @AeonCypher sorry, but I do not currently plan to return to Twitter and I don't believe you are in a position to decide that.
It honestly is a bit weird and unfortunate to see your style of reaction and tone rather than to have an engaging discussion.
@Setok @troed @AeonCypher
describe to me how i am supposed to react to a shill pushing cult dogma
do you want me to engage them?
if someone tells you the earth is flat is it a valid use of your time arguing the point with them?
you'd probably just laugh at them instead
well, now you understand my approach to you
bitcoin is a fucking joke. there's not debate on the issue. i understand that within the confines of your hilarious cult this is confusing to you. which is funny
@benroyce @troed @AeonCypher I can assure you I have no interest in cult dogma. Indeed I even raised some BTC weaknesses for you. Other people on this thread corrected some of your own errors, based on technical details. Science, if you will, not dogma. Similar to the science that shows the earth not being flat.
How should you act? Well, I can't speak for others. I'd personally be more interested in reasoned debate, raising issues, pointing logical problems, understanding points.
ok, reasoned argument for you:
#bitcoin was an interesting experiment but the energy waste shows it to be a dead end. nevertheless casino playing degenerates endlessly hype it with various airhead flimsy cult talking points so "number go up" and that is now all that bitcoin is
reasonable enough for you?
fuck bitcoin
fuck mind numbing sales pitches
fuck off to all the #crypto shills and their endless dreary prattle
we despise it
reshared this
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
@musingmouse @Setok @troed @AeonCypher
Crypto is part of the oligarchy and funds fascism
And the libertarian idiots don't know or don't care
@privateblack @Setok @troed @AeonCypher
some made money
a lot are "bag holders" (made very little or lost money and are desperate)
but the ones who win are the whales. those who hold a lot of coins
they manipulate the market to sucker noobs or do other creepy things to generate interest and crypto value
grifters and patsies
a casino of degenerates
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
@privateblack @benroyce @troed @AeonCypher the fundamental concept is much like Mastodon: to not be controlled by a central entity. To avoid censorship, authoritarian governments, bank control (which honestly is quite scary) and to be able to have global p2p transactions without middlemen.
Though admittedly many nowadays also buy for investment as it's a limited digital resource enabling financial transactions.
Most other crypto projects are borderline scams.
@Setok @privateblack @troed @AeonCypher
correct, it is not possible when dealing with a creepy cult to be civil
find a better hobby
bitcoin is shit
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
gerry mcgovern makes a post that nails the fatal flaw with #bitcoin, so all these lobotomized fucking #cult characters come out of their holes far and wide to defend their dear dear religion
it's quite creepy
cults are nothing new
but to interact with them?
to feel how their humanity, their personalities, their cognition is deadened
in service of this desperate need to engage in a plastic sales pitch?
repulsive and alarming
reshared this
@benroyce @troed @AeonCypher Well you at least started trying to be reasoned. Clearly it's not at a dead end (at least yet). Energy consumption is definitely not ideal. Though all financial systems are based on limited resources (and often energy is at the end of that chain). They don't really work without a limited resource at the core.
So far nobody has come up with a better system to serve the goals that #bitcoin has. We can debate the value of those goals, of course
@troed @AeonCypher @benroyce various solutions have been worked on to help that scalability, and with some success, though we're not there yet.
Having a trustless, fully decentralised financial network and a digital store that is more immutable than any store we have ever had is super fascinating (including physical stores).
It's also true that ETH was pre-mined. They had their stated reasons for that, which we can debate, but it was pre-mined and more centrally controlled.
How do you bitcoin cultists live with yourselves vomiting this quasireligious lame cringe sales speak endlessly day after day without your brains melting out of the sheer empty vapidness of it all
I believe all money moving around by traditional means for payment purposes is inefficient.
From the logistics of operating cash, to banking settlement systems and cards, they need lots of energy at very precise places.
Bitcoin consumes lots of energy too, but you don't require reliable power: Anybody can put a miming rig anywhere in the world where there's an excess of electricity and be profitable; yet Bitcoin users don't pay for any of this.
@roos
do you understand the number of tx involved?
no of course you don't that would interfere with your fucking grift
fuck off
@benroyce on the Bitcoin side, I build systems using Bitcoin as payment method for a living... So yes, I do understand it.
From the Fiat side, I maintained systems interacting with traditional banking systems for a financial institution for more than 7 years... So yes, I also understand it.
I have no interest in "financial products" such as speculative assets, ETFs,... My interest is in payment methods.
This is first time I read about anything like this.
99.99% of Bitcoin critique I seen so far speak about of being it PoW (proof-of-work) type of crypto - simply speaking, most people concerned about related waste of electricity for "mining" (and sometimes - about water use for cooling).
I wouldn't be so worried about Bitcoin if that was the only cryptocurrency.
But nowadays we have ... i don't know ... hundreds of them?
They all need more or less the same infrastructure and they all suck up energy like there's no tomorrow.
That's what we're dealing with right now, along with all the datacenters full of millions of AI GPUs.
Shut down all the crypto and AI datacenters and we can get rid of fossil fuels for energy production completely right away.
We are all going to die so some libertarian idiot can have fake secret money while making deepfakes about how successful they are
reshared this
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
I forgive you. I've been butting heads with folks like yourself for well over a decade and my suggestion is that you prepare to be disappointed.
@suzannealdrich @gerrymcgovern
i know
i had thousands of anti-#bitcoin posts before i deleted my #twitter account
including interacting with you, if this account here is the real jameson lopp
we share that decade, friend
bitcoin is the biggest cult con job since dutch tulip mania in the 1600s
the insane energy use means it will not replace traditional money
and not on the basis of environmentalists resisting it
simple technical feasibility is the rub
sorry, cultist
reshared this
Er yes, fiat is not going to stop existing. I'm quite content with our success over the past decade; here's to the next decade!
@suzannealdrich @gerrymcgovern
to the next decade of #bitcoin success!
40 degree days are becoming more common, can we hit 45 degree days so laser eye grift hype cult gets more wallet value!?
WOOOOOOO!
😂
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
@benroyce
I can understand your confusion, but hashrate doesn't drive bitcoin's exchange rate. It's the other way around.
If you want to kill Bitcoin mining, your objective should be to crash the exchange rate and keep it suppressed for many years. Good luck!
@suzannealdrich @gerrymcgovern
@coppercrush @lopp @suzannealdrich
all you have to do is surrender all critical thought and build elaborate psychological defense mechanisms to defend from simple aspects of reality
this is how one becomes a #bitcoin cult loser
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
Web3 is Going Just Great
A timeline recording only some of the many disasters happening in crypto, decentralized finance, NFTs, and other blockchain-based projects.www.web3isgoinggreat.com
Replacing the 'too big to fail' commercial banks following the 2008 financial crash was literally the whole point of Bitcoin.
idea@lopp@lopp.social @benroyce @suzannealdrich @gerrymcgovern
Ha! It's not an oversimplification; that's literally what happened:
bitcoin.com/satoshi-archive/wh…
@benroyce @suzannealdrich @gerrymcgovern
Bitcoin Original Whitepaper
Read the full original whitepaper written by Satoshi Nakamoto: Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash SystemSatoshi’s Archive
@liquor_american @ReggieHere @suzannealdrich
😂
on the plus side, bitcoin cultists are the biggest pinatas of lulz on the entire planet
endless deranged denial of the radioactively obvious is hilarious
that is all that crypto essentially is, like any con job:
impressionable starry eyed naive rubes funding the crypto whales to enact agendas where they suffer and the whales win
all the while the crypto cult true believers rail against oligarchy...
which they are funding
just like the trump maga cult, which preys on stupid bigots rather than greedy fucks (well, *and* greedy fucks)
or any traditional religious cult
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
That is what Bitcoin became, but crypto in 2008 was a response to the financial crash and the 'too big to fail' banking bailouts.
@ReggieHere @liquor_american @suzannealdrich
george liquor's simple point is that bitcoin and crypto do absolutely nothing about the situation that led to the 2008 meltdown
in fact, crypto is helping set up the next one
you are correct the 2008 meltdown inspired crypto
and?
reshared this
@benroyce
And wasn't bitcoin developed by some uber criminal who's languishing in some gaol somewhere?
@ReggieHere @liquor_american @suzannealdrich
nobody knows
my pet theory is it was the cia
mainly because it would be hilarious considering the rabidly anti-govt crypto libertarian types
i'm not alone in this theory, athough i don't really care about the truth, again i only propose it to laugh at crypto cultists more:
thefinanser.com/2025/04/who-cr…
my advice to you is to avoid this rabbit hole, as there is nothing concrete and it's all conspiracy theory fever
Was bitcoin created by the CIA? - Chris Skinner's blog
There’s a brand new book on the block, which I wish I had written: who is Satoshi Nakamoto? It’s actually not called that. It’s called: The Mysterious Mr.Chris Skinner's blog
reshared this
Not that whacked-out of a theory, considering the origins of Tor, for instance.
@gerrymcgovern @ReggieHere @liquor_american
@suzannealdrich @ReggieHere @liquor_american
U.S. Naval Research Laboratory for dissidents in other countries right?
Ooh! Another one: Dual_EC_DRBG with the NSA backdoor: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_EC_…
@gerrymcgovern @ReggieHere @liquor_american
@suzannealdrich @ReggieHere @liquor_american
yeah and tor, since it originated with the govt, i'm sure they still control enough exit nodes to reconstruct the hops
anti-us govt types using tor just sends me
That's the irony forsure, but the 2008 crash was predicated on the back of commercial bank lending and central bank bailouts, and Bitcoin was conceived to remove the need for banks and by extension central banks and give individuals power over their own finances.
Occupy Wall Street and all that....
ft.com/content/f626d6f7-3210-4…
i was at occupy wall street, in zuccotti park
please do not confuse something genuinely for the people with the cult mythology of libertarian assholes
Very coincidentally, I provided technical assistance to the Anon group that was originally occupying zuccotti prior to OWS. I think it was adbusters that came in, and ironically enough co-opted the messaging, which was originally anti-bank, anti-fed and very much pro-crypto.
@ReggieHere @gerrymcgovern
@liquor_american @ReggieHere @benroyce @suzannealdrich That entire account is crypto evangelism - take a look at its Replies tab.
Not worth engaging with. 🤷
@ApostateEnglishman @liquor_american @ReggieHere @suzannealdrich
on the contrary, crypto cultists are the most hilarious fountain of lulz to mock and laugh at ever created
that's worth something
😂
you're talking about jameson lopp
yes he is a big pinata of lulz if you like making fun of the bitcoin cult, which i do
i was doing so on twitter, fucking years ago
i wonder if it's really them, or a fan account
Not sure I've ever mentioned crypto on here until today.
@ApostateEnglishman @benroyce @suzannealdrich @gerrymcgovern
then you're cool
but we took potshots at you simply because the motivation for creating bitcoin has absolutely nothing to do with its reality
which might not have even been your intention, to confuse the two
but the problem is this confusion of motivation with reality is very big in the bitcoin cult, so just a heads up not to give credence to their nuttery
I’m trying to die without having contributed to all your deaths, though. Burning up fossil fuels for your selfish gains violates Mill’s Harm Principle.
@benroyce @gerrymcgovern
To be clear, I highly support ditching fossil fuels. Nuclear is the way to go - the United States has really shot itself in the foot regarding that.
@benroyce @gerrymcgovern
@lopp @suzannealdrich
i'd like to also have a small energy bill, but i can't because a cult has to burn through so much energy for their grift casino
even if all energy was clean (it's not), stupid waste is stupid waste
Unfortunately, you're a deranged fool. Enjoy continuing to cry as Bitcoin keeps growing 😘
@suzannealdrich @gerrymcgovern
@lopp @suzannealdrich
oh no!
jameson found out!
i am secretly crying!
😭 😭 😭
ah sweet projection my good friend jameson
sweet sweet projection
@lopp Yes. But one can be concerned about TWO things and raise alarm about either or both of them.
_No! You can only bitch about one thing at a time!_
@tezoatlipoca
Interestingly, the problem is the same in both cases: how are you going to stop Bitcoin miners / AI companies from purchasing resources to operate their businesses?
You may find limited success pushing them out of one town or another, but ultimately the incentives will drive the outcomes.
@gerrymcgovern
@lopp
Crypto.. or at least Bitcoin goes away if the cost of electricity stops deflating. Since solar and wind are still cratering, it will have to be legislated and you have the "itll just go elsewhere" problem as you say.
AI will solve itself. We have ~2? more years of this foolishness, the AI bubble bursts and everyone sees the Emperor's clothes. GPT 9 or Claude 17 may get a lot gooder, but they're never going to get as good as TechbroCEOs need them to be.
@distractal
That is a pretty brilliant description of where we are right now. Already, conmunities are pushing back against data centers and lots of people are getting angry at thier sky rocketing electricity bills. There's an awful lot of pain coming.
@lopp
* #bitcoin is the most important innovation in grifting cult morons since {gestures broadly at the most successful various grifts and cons throughout the centuries}
fixed that for you
reshared this
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
@benroyce for sure that's a valid distinction, and only if we didn't have a kakistocrat fascist saboteur in charge of appointments to the SEC, FTC, etc, it would (and should) be a valid distinction in practice as well as in theory.
I'm just saying the AI bubble is the mother of all examples of stock having "value because others think it has value."
absolutely zero argument, i agree with everything you say
i still think it's valuable to make a distinction between crypto markets and stock markets, only because morons think of them as the same thing
of course as you note both suck
I'm not sure that stock markets suck in general, they suck now because (similarly to cryptos by the way) speculators/grifters have captured them.
I'm not sure that there is a use for Bitcoin, but there seem to have some for Ethereum (never tried, though) and there definitely is one for Namecoin.
But yes, one doesn't simply invest into crypto.
dirty *secret*?
That's like saying the dirty secret of logging in the amazon is the deforestation.
true but there's a horde of #crypto #bitcoin cult morons who don't seem to understand massive energy waste for casino grift is a problem
more exactly they understand it, and construct elaborate psychological defense mechanisms to deny reality
and thus we keep hammering home the obvious
partly because it's funny to watch the dimwits contort themselves trying to live in their embarrassing denial
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@benroyce @codyroux Unfortunately it has worked for them so far. The damn thing keeps going up. Although the amount changing hands is so small that the value is mostly imaginary.
The people who run the present banking system have their hooks in BTC since the beginning. BTC would have been treated like enriched uranium otherwise.
Banksters are in the business of creating new money out of nothing and spending it. BTC is a new way to do that.
@benroyce @mike805 @codyroux Unfortunately, it turns out that when an experiment like this is even vaguely successful, the people who have the resources to buy-in are still... The people who have the resources.
There are a few folk who were early-adopters of the tech who get to be nouveau-riche if their bet pays off, but it's not like people managing billions if not trillions of dollars can't afford to stake-in to something like this.
In fact, if they couldn't, the project would fail.
@mark @benroyce @codyroux BTC also has all the marks of a covert intelligence operation. It materialized fully formed. The code quality was too good for a one person project. It had clearly been red teamed in a closed environment. And the person in question has never been identified, although he is presumably a billionaire.
They have known since at least 2008 the fiat USD is in trouble, and are preparing its replacement.
"Satoshi Nakamoto"'s bitcoin wallet has been untouched since 2010
they are either dead or a govt entity:
it's worth $130 billion
When it's up to a few trillion they will just rug pull the USD and call that the new monetary base. Strategic Bitcoin Reserve indeed.
Maybe they sell say 10% of that for USD, watch the panic sellling crash BTC, buy it back at a huge gain, and THEN rug pull the USD.
Almost all cryptocurrencies are like that. All of those that are based on digital mining nonsense.
The fact that mining a digital resource is worse for the env than mining real resources is baffling. That should never happen.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
@2qx
what point are you trying to make?
"human civilization created global warming, therefore massively wasting energy to accelerate global warming for the bitcoin cult is ok"?
what?
@benroyce
BTC is now a continuation of the petrodollar. It's just being used to subsidize a monetary policy that has existed since 1971.
coindesk.com/policy/2021/10/11…
Bitcoin Mining Is Reshaping the Energy Sector and No One Is Talking About It
In other news: Ted Cruz understands bitcoin mining’s potential role in a greener energy system.Nic Carter (CoinDesk)
why do bitcoin assholes continually try to redefine wasting huge amounts of renewable energy as a good thing, somehow?
i mean what kind of complete moron buys that weak ass game of weak propaganda three card monte?
"the issue of waste... follow the card... oh! you can't find it! we distracted you!"
waste is waste, dimwits
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@benroyce
BitcoinBros are holding an investment that is only worth something if someone else comes along behind them who is willing to pay more for it than they did.
They have no choice but to always be talking it up/downplaying the negatives.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
@TeflonTrout @fname @benroyce @2qx
If Bitcoin is pure evil, do we prefer AI?
theverge.com/climate-change/67…
Just tax carbon already...
AI could consume more power than Bitcoin by the end of 2025
AI data centers are starting to rival Bitcoin mining when it comes to how much energy they consume. But there still isn’t enough data available to track AI’s growing appetite for electricity.Justine Calma (The Verge)
@dennmans
AI is another level worse. We keep accelerating and accelerating, doing exactly the opposite of what we should do. It's a Growth Death Cult.
@TeflonTrout @fname @benroyce @2qx
@benroyce @2qx@mastodon.social @gerrymcgovern
Notice how the fossil fuel companies get paid in $'s per barrel and not in crypto.
Think that tells us all we need to know about the value of the magic beans.
@raymierussell
that's changing:
reuters.com/business/energy/tr…
(just nothing whatsoever to do with the magic beans)
Upton Sinclair opined that it is immensely difficult to get someone to understand something, when their livelihood is dependent upon them not understanding it.
The entire 'value' of bitcoin is dependent upon willfully not understanding that it is the first "currency" in the world to be based upon a net destruction of value. The consumption of vast and ever-increasing amounts of electrical power to produce a figment of shared imagination with no intrinsic value at all.
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@benroyce @2qx
Humanity wasted a bunch of energy and created global warming starting around 1880.
Humanity created fiat currency starting around 1000 BCE.
These two things are clearly the same - money created global warming.
Humanity created bitcoin in 2008. While bitcoin wastes vast amounts of energy, it is no different from fiat currency.
@benroyce @2qx
By the same token:
Humanity created margarine in 1869, leading to generations of people eating mediocre toast because it didn't have proper butter on it.
Humanity created shoes at least as long ago as 7000 BCE.
Therefore, shoes are the cause of mediocre toast.
Wonderbread also makes mediocre toast, but QED it's no worse than shoes. And yet, go to a fancy bakery with really good bread, look at people's feet, and what do you see? Shoes! Hypocrites, all of them!
@ckrypto
you realize the military has other uses than propping up fiat, right? even if you hate those other uses the comparison is idiotic
and "it wastes a ton of energy but it's renewable energy!" is not the amazing flex you think it is. it's quite embarrassing you think that's a valid point
This is cult speak. Bitcoin wastes an insane amount of energy for a few tx. Thus, it is an interesting experiment but has no future
If you want to hand wave to "implications," that's fine. I know how emotional it is for cult true believers and feverish dreams are very important for your mental well-being. So you do you. Could have taken up a better hobby though, one that doesn't waste insane energy for a degenerate casino
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If anyone reading this wonders what _mining_ actually is, or where the stupid fcking coins "come from", I explain here, prompted from trying to explain to my friends too frequently.
I haven't got to part 2, "why does it have any value!?", but that's coming. Part 1 "where does it come from" will make you angry enough.
nellie-m reshared this.
Don't worry, we only have another 115 year of mining!
According to current estimates, 99% of all Bitcoin will have been mined by 2035, but the final fraction — the last satoshis — won't be produced until around the year 2140 due to the nature of geometric reward reduction
there is organized astroturfing for anything that someone can profit from, politically or financially
but unfortunately you also have foolish true believers
so who's to say if someone is a paid liar or a gullible cult moron?
regardless, since the effect is the same, we treat them the same:
laugh at them
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
Thats why I hope the Chinese quantum computer factories become able to devalue all shitcoin to 0.
One time, early on, I had hope for a decentralized currency I could easily pay online. But it was coupled with moneymaking scams and energy usage of small countries.
I hope it gets killed.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
you are wiser than me
i never block, always laugh. and then i wasted all this time. but i am endlessly entertained
Yes, that was the conclusion from David Graeber at around the same time as Bitcoin came out - he suggested that contrary to the orthodox view of economists, early society made use of social credit rather than money.
ccmj.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uplo…
@spinach @chikl @gerrymcgovern
how unsuitable? Are they not Turing complete?
Of course they’d be less efficient when repurposed, but why would that be less efficient than throwing them in a dump?
this was easy to foretell back when it was new and you could see the size of the blockchain growing exponentially. I saw it 11 years ago and decided it was a bad idea and (after a very brief dabble) wouldn't touch it.
None of what is being said today about crypto comes as a surprise to me.
Speaking of implementation, the other major blockchains (Etherium, Solana) don't use "mining" so they don't have a disproportionate need energy or computing power to operate.
thank you for tone policing me
what you describe is the utopian dream of bitcoin as originally envisioned
the reality of course is that bitcoin is now a tool of fascism, and fascists
i will now insert laughing emojis for no other reason than it annoys you, and i find that funny, and there is no such thing as honest debate with a cult
🤣 🤣 🤣
absolutely correct
i'm laughing at you
because you're in a stupid and hilarious cult
there is no "debate." do you debate people who think the earth is flat? no, you laugh at them. and then they whine their "debate" isn't respected. which is simply something else to laugh at
now you understand the fate you deserve
some more laughing emojis, i don't particularly feel like posting them for my point here, but it annoys you, so that's as good a reason as any:
🤣 🤣 🤣
there is no such thing as honest debate with a dishonest cult my friend
"It’s also a classic tool of authoritarian thinking, ironically"
it's a tool of authoritarian cults to label cults?
cool, "no, u!" level thinking
the level of mental discipline i expect from a cultist
"Have a great day."
go slip on dog shit
yes! exactly!
and now you know what a cult deserves
you honestly believe cult devotion to bullshit deserves "debate"?
🤣 🤣 🤣
why did you block me then unblock me?
do you want me to mock you some more?
ok
everything you think about bitcoin is a lie
it's not fighting oligarchs, it's a tool of oligarchs
it will not replace money, it will only burn a ton of energy to move a fraction that traditional money can move
you. are. in. a cult.
you have feverish tech utopian dreams, and you are being used by whales to fund fascism, not libertarian ideas
you are a rube. a con job victim. a patsy
and that's funny
do you think that people who believe really really stupid lies are a problem?
or do you think the people who find such stupidity to be stupid are a problem?
is a society where respect for stupidity is expected and deserved going to be a society that will last very long?
or should we live in a society where stupid shit is rejected as it should be, no matter how feverish the devotion of the stupid in stupid cults?
we're done when bitcoin cultists shut the fuck up with their lying casino grift
which is all they stand for
all this "facts" "arguments"...
nonsense
there is no argument with people who think the earth is flat, because it's a pointless endeavor
exactly the same with lies about bitcoin
there *will* be mockery of bitcoin cultists, because that is the way to get them to fuck off
that is all that the bitcoin cult deserves
and if they won't fuck off, i will laugh at them
let me break it down for you as succinctly as possible:
when you are dealing with a supposed adult human being that believes something incredibly fucking stupid, the natural human inclination is not to debate them
because it's a waste of time
what you do, if you are so inclined, as i am, is to mock them
so they shut up and go away
so do me a favor
please leave mastodon and go back to twitter
plenty of morons there to buy your lying cult grift called bitcoin
nobody wants it here
thank you for your cult pamphlet
it is as greatly valued as that from the occasional jehovah's witness who show up at my front door, and contains an equal number of facts
that bitcoin mining uses so much energy to move a tiny fraction of what banking does might be the valid point i would make, if i were so inclined to argue with you
but of course, just like arguing with a religious nutjob, you already have plenty of sales pitches ready which all boil down to topic change and denial
wooo!
three replies!
here comes the gish gallop "argument" method from the lying cult member!
🤣 🤣 🤣
i already know that
the funny part is how you think that means anything on the fundamental issue, and how you can't see the topic change in your statement
perhaps you lack the cognitive coherency to recognize that that is what you are doing. after all, you're a cult member, so that speaks volumes about your mental acuity
*or* you *know* you are changing the topic, and you're a slimeball grifter with a sales pitch, and no honesty
which is it, friend?
🤣 🤣 🤣
yes, this is the way
when you are confronted with a deranged cult, you mock them. that is what they deserve
glad you're learning
🥰
why do you think you cite proof?
this is an honest question. i am genuinely curious about what is going on in your mind
why do you honestly belief you have proof?
it's fascinating, how the human mind can trick itself
the job of rejecting lies is never done
bitcoin wastes a shit ton of energy. thus it is a dead end
but no
"other things waste energy" you argue. "it wastes renewable energy" you argue
do you not see the topic change? the dishonesty?
do you see how your emotional enthusiasm blinds you to critical thinking, as you hilariously cite critical thinking?
that's called being in a cult
hey my friend where did you go?
entertain me
show me more championing of "critical thinking" while you defile critical thinking yourself
is it purposeful and malicious as a slimy salesperson? or a genuine reflection of your level of cognitive coherency?
come on! i need entertainment!
🍿 🍿 🍿
Oh and thanks for wishing me a great day
I hope you spill your drink all over your best shirt
Lying cultist
❤️
but you keep replying my best friend. do you know what narcissism is? what you're seeing is called sadism, sunshine. for example: someone who harps on "critical thinking" while proving in the thread they don't care about that or lack the capacity to do that is funny. and since you're a bitcoin cultist, you deserve to be laughed at
so you're here to entertain me
so entertain me
please
say more stupid shit about bitcoin
I need to laugh damnit!
I mean you're using an old account with no posts and no followers so what we're dealing with is a sock puppet account. Is this the esteemed Mr. Lopp I'm dealing with? Or another cringe laser eyes bitcoin shill?
You need to vent your frustration and not have it connected to your more well-known account?
Awww
It's ok sunshine. Yes bitcoin is a cult and you're deep in the doo doo but everyone needs to take the first big step away from their failures in life
I believe in you!
😂
@tillbtc but I don't have a different view than you
I live in reality and you live in a delusional cult
Why don't you get that?
So please, block me
Because I can't get enough of this cringe lulz pinata that is hilarious bitcoin shills
@sillyCoelophysis @AeonCypher @troed
getting along all the time is kinda weird
fighting all the time is kinda weird
quarrelling, pausing, then fist bumping and all's well, is as human as it comes
@sillyCoelophysis @AeonCypher @troed
yeah
maybe with the humanity we generate here, we can do something about the malice out there
and for some lurkers, like me, these exchanges are educational, so thanks to all participants
Compared to the US dollar, this is nothing.
If you don't like BTC's pollution, you'll absolutely hate AI...much worse.
2,000 nuclear bombs have been "tested" propping up the US dollar. Agent Orange destroyed Vietnam for the US Dollar. Depleted Uranium has destroyed several nations for the US Dollar.
I hate the cult running the US dollar...the federal reserve.
I don't know of a single war started to help BTC.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
The town that rebelled against the crypto farm that kept it awake for six months, Paraguay, Josué Congo, El País, 2025
english.elpais.com/internation…
The Crypto Racket: Texas Bitcoin mining boom, Candice Bernd, The Texas Observer, 2025
texasobserver.org/the-crypto-r…
The Crypto Racket
Bitcoin mining afflicts locals with noise pollution, threatens water supplies, and receives generous public backing.Candice Bernd (The Texas Observer)
@solr4ctg
Crypto, run by criminals and gangsters for criminals and gangsters in order to target and exploit poor people, has a message for poor people:
We love you poor people. We're here for you. Don't trust those nasty governments. Trust us. We're honest, down-to-earth criminals who only want to do good in the world. Please give us your money. We'll protect it. Please transfer your money with us. We'll only charge you 90% interest.
you're only describing the dream of #crypto
reality:
a casino of degenerates, enriching plutocrats, not poor people, via pump and dump
nothing like you describe
but it's nice to see the whales are spending their grift proceeds on astroturfing shills like you
if you think that's insulting:
just imagine if i concluded you were one of the patsies regurgitating #cult speak while being robbed by market manipulation- and happy about it
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hardcore herbivore's feelings are hurt by the recent crypto market dump due to trump's latest tariff announcement
rather than understand this glimpse into the reality of what they are funding at their personal financial loss, they do cringe cult cope instead
they feverishly harken back to the lying sales pitch that got them to fork over their money to whales working market manipulation games on fools like them
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
It's also useful for laundering low level drug dealing profits.
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
The "pure evil" saved Wikileaks and largely helped Snowden.
And no, cryptocurrency mining doesn't need water cooling systems if it is well decentralized. I have already mined some Monero on my laptop, and I don't remember using a cooling system.
Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC
in reply to Murdoc Addams 🧛🏻 🇨🇦 • • •