Trump allies and other Republicans have provided a preview of what could happen to protests, protestors, and aligned groups once the new administration begins
Well considering a majority of americans think the tank guy got ran over and murdered on camera for everyone to see, maybe not so crazy they quash that one.
Edit: I encourage those who aren't aware to go watch the full footage, its not shocking in the least, many will find it anticlimactic even.
Edit 2: took forever to find the full video, its not in full on youtube or anything like that I could find: odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-…
Americans have jesters privilege. We can say anything we want as long as it doesn't matter. As soon as the government thinks it might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.
Looking it up, it's unclear how much jesters were respected for having political competency that kings and court would listen to vs how much they were were entertainers who were permitted much greater liberty with content because he was non-threatening and affected nothing.
As soon as ~~the government~~ oligarchs who own the media think~~s~~ it might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.
But it's also worth noting that the Chinese don't even have that. At least in America, you can get your message out by getting a billionaire to agree with you.
This is horse shit. There are examples of protests being countered (e.g. When Trump gassed protesters and clergy members to hold a Bible up upside down at their church), but these examples are rare and those people weren't actually "silenced". They told everyone about what happened.
Americans have freedom of speech protected by our constitution. China, on the other hand, has actual laws dictating against many forms of speech.
For example... "The PRC bans certain content regarding independence movements in Tibet and Taiwan, the religious movement Falun Gong, democracy, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, Maoism, corruption, police brutality, anarchism, gossip, disparity of wealth, and food safety scandals."
How well did the protests about gaza go over then? You are hand waving away something we all lived through and saw. From unions to college campuses, protesting has never been a protected right. You can only protest as much as those in power allow you to in your area.
Even those not in power shit on protestors when it affects their lives. People start saying things like "thats not the way to protest" or "this isn't the time or place, have some respect".
Its bullshit, and we do not have the freedom to speak our minds, unless we already agree with what we are expected to.
The US cracked down on Gaza protests quite harshly. Many states enact book bans these days and some ban topics like slavery from schools. Also historically protests against Vietnam were partly gunned down. The black panthers were often murdered and in fighting them the US even bombed one of its own towns. Red Scare was huge and Ernest Hemmingway was probably driven to his suicide by FBI surveillance, for which he was called paranoid but later proofed real by declassified files.
Censorship in China goes farther, but the US is far from being a free speech haven or ever having been that.
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To be fair I mainly wanted to jokingly tell the commentator that both china and the us are guilty of this, so I just mentioned a third country that I thought was decent. Thanks for educating :)
Outside of "Chinese man gets removed from his league of legends match cause a player talked about tiananmen square" memes, what do you know about Chinese censorship?
I know that they don't like people asking for a free Tibet and independence for Hong Kong. Are there any good mainstream Chinese media articles that talk about these subjects?
China, but also the PRC hasn't been in a war in like 50+ years. Meanwhile the US killed a million innocent people in Iraq, and goes after whistleblowers like Assange, Snowden, and Manning for speaking out about its war crimes. And the Obama administration prosecuted a record number of whistleblowers, and had a zero tolerance policy towards them.
It wasn't a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in
It wasn't a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
2009 foreword: We are publishing the paper, Continuing the Revolution is Not a Dinner Party written during the 1989 turmoil in China. Authored by Mick Kelly,
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
Andrew Wimmer was handcuffed and taken to jail on January 22, 2003 because he refused to protest in a ""designated protest zone"" that was out of sight of the President as well as local and national TV news cameras.
A woman, armed with a ""We Love You Bush"" sign showed up at the same corner shortly after Wimmer's arrest. Wimmer asked the police if they were going to arrest her if she didn't move and they said, ""no."" The police also allegedly blocked the national press camera crews and an AP reporter from approaching the protest zone to do reporting.
That's a far cry from how china suppresses protests. And really a small individual example. Overall there's a clear freedom of expression and civil protest in the US. The same absolutely cannot be said about china.
Yeah, not really comparable when it comes to war crimes. If someone wanted to conflate a topic that makes both countries look similarly bad in an honest light, it would be the treatment of ethnic minorities.
That would not be an honest light. China actually takes their affirmative action seriously and not just pays lip service to it while continuing to enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai'i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
The claims of China's abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
People still on that "China genocide" bs are about as ridiculous as people claiming Iraq had WMDs into the Obama years. It's a level of gullibility so big that it has to be voluntary.
enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai'i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
And the same has been said about tibet, inner Mongolia, and xinjiang. I mean you can look at Chinas own census data and see that han Chinese are migrating to cities in xinjiang, displacing ethnic minorities to move away from their cultural cities.
The claims of China's abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
You are conflating the accusations of genocide in one region w
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enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai'i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
And the same has been said about tibet, inner Mongolia, and xinjiang. I mean you can look at Chinas own census data and see that han Chinese are migrating to cities in xinjiang, displacing ethnic minorities to move away from their cultural cities.
The claims of China's abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
You are conflating the accusations of genocide in one region with the accusations of ethnic discrimination. Even in that grey zone article it is conflating the study from some weird neocon group with all investigations into ethnic discrimination in China.
Han chauvinism is an established concept that even Mao took aims to curtail. Something they are still combating considering there has only been one ethnic minority to serve in the central committee in the last 35 years.
An actual criticism that I have about Xi is that he is a bit culturally conservative. The belt and road initiative utilized a lot of han centric language and the current central committee is notably the first committee that has no women serving on it in the last +25 years.
You mean the US having the highest prison population in the world, to the point of 1 in 5 black men over 30 having been to jail at some point of their lives?
? The UN has thoroughly investigated and concluded that the 'Uyghur genocide' is a fabrication ohchr.org/en/documents/country… I suggest you read it rather than have it filtered through biased western media orgs, and I trust their investigation a lot more than those from countries like the US that have a vested interest in painting China as negatively as possible
Even if the propaganda were true it would constitute a crime against humanity not a war crime, unless you consider the ETIM terror campaign a 'war'
That has no mention of a war that has China as a belligerent, can you specify which war you think these crimes are occurring as part of? and specify them?
Ok, but there is a difference between the two, and no one here said China hasn't committed serious human rights violations, they have and I condemn it like I condemn all serious human right violations including those committed by the US and it's allies, domestically and in the numerous recent and ongoing invasions, wars and conflicts they've started, in addition to their war crimes
I was agreeing with them, I posted the conclusion to show people they've not commited war crimes, just "serious human rights violations". Sorry if my intentions didn't come through in my comment.
A fabrication? Did you even read that pdf? I quote:
Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR in the context of the Government’s application of counter-terrorism and counter-“extremism” strategies. The implementation of these strategies, and associated policies in XUAR has led to interlocking patterns of severe and undue restrictions on a wide range of human rights. These patterns of restrictions are characterized by a discriminatory component, as the underlying acts often directly or indirectly affect Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim communities.
That would not be an honest light. China actually takes their affirmative action seriously and not just pays lip service to it while continuing to enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai'i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
The claims of China's abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
People still on that "China genocide" bs are about as ridiculous as people claiming Iraq had WMDs into the Obama years. It's a level of gullibility so big that it has to be voluntary.
The students in Tiananmen Square did get exactly what they deserved. A safe evacuation after the fighting in the streets surrounding the square got too intense.
You can watch this and look for any evidence of your claim. You wont see any. Or you can take my word for it when i tell you i literally spoke to a uyghur from Xinjiang on XHS the other day and they were chillin enjoying life.
Either way maybe dont just take the word of whatever Western Media mouthpieces tell you?
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Read the UN Report your fellow shill tried to cite.
You’re never gonna get the communist utopia you want, China is not your friend, stop acting like such a clown, get off the internet, loser, and touch grass
the UN, it addition to numerous countries including those with a Muslim majority population have investigated and concluded that the claims of genocide are a fabrication
The claims of genocide that appear in western media can be traced back to single source; Adrian Zenz a german christian fundamentalist who is on a self described 'holy war to destroy China' and writes books such has 'Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation,'
Do you really believe this nutjob is a more reliable source on events in Xinjiang than the UN's Office of Human Rights?
Bro did you even read the wiki article you linked, idiot. It talks about how numerous agencies/new outlets confirmed his research that there exists an ongoing genocide, detention, and sterilization programs of Uyghurs. The article goes into detail on how Zenz is the target of multiple misinformation campaigns to cover up his research. However, it also notes that you are in part right because he is exaggerating the numbers. (At least your dense, mush brained ass got one part slightly right)
Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR… the underlying acts often directly or indirectly affect Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim communities
The report goes onto state how Uyghur’s are placed in detention camps with terrible conditions where forced surgeries, sexual violence, and torture have
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Bro did you even read the wiki article you linked, idiot. It talks about how numerous agencies/new outlets confirmed his research that there exists an ongoing genocide, detention, and sterilization programs of Uyghurs. The article goes into detail on how Zenz is the target of multiple misinformation campaigns to cover up his research. However, it also notes that you are in part right because he is exaggerating the numbers. (At least your dense, mush brained ass got one part slightly right)
Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR… the underlying acts often directly or indirectly affect Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim communities
The report goes onto state how Uyghur’s are placed in detention camps with terrible conditions where forced surgeries, sexual violence, and torture have been reported. (VIII, 145)
Multiple times the report states Uyghur’s are being stripped of their liberties in the region.
Why are you citing a source that doesn’t even reflect your claim 🤡 Learn to read, better luck next time
Please read the entire article and don't just cheery pick the things that fit your pre-conceived notions
Stop moving the goalposts, my claim is that their is no genocide, the only source you quote alleges serious human rights violations, that while obviously terrible(and I condemn them, just as I condemn the US's similar but greater and larger in scale abuses committed at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, CIA blacksites etc), are not synonymous with genocide
Which sources on that page present evidence of genocide? if any such source exists why didn't you quote them?
Read the UN’s definition of genocide and tell me this doesn’t fit the bill.
Why are you trying to argue the semantics of what’s happening to the Uyghurs? It’s a brain dead thing to argue and is also as you say “moving the goalposts” from your original claim which was “there is no genocide taking place.” + you’re wrong
I agree with the UN when they concluded that there is no genocide in Xinjiang
From the UN definition you supplied, one of condition that needs to be met;
A mental element: the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
So lets compare the fabrication with a real genocide such as the ongoing one in Gaza, they're are numerous statements from the Israeli government that declare such a genocidal intent, such as "Gazan civilians participated in the horrific events of October 7" "there are no innocent civilians there"
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly." - Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant
I agree with the UN when they concluded that there is no genocide in Xinjiang
From the UN definition you supplied, one of condition that needs to be met;
A mental element: the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
So lets compare the fabrication with a real genocide such as the ongoing one in Gaza, they're are numerous statements from the Israeli government that declare such a genocidal intent, such as "Gazan civilians participated in the horrific events of October 7" "there are no innocent civilians there"
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly." - Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant
I'll repeat I don't deny that China has committed human rights abuses, but I concur with the UN OHCR that they fall far, far short of the definition legal and otherwise, of genocide
For this one condition to meet the definition, could you provide sources that show such a callous and widespread intent to wipe the Uyghurs off the face off the earth from the Chinese government similar to those from Israeli state for it's current genocide of Palestinians in Gaza?
Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated IMPORTANT: These aren’t the whole 500 statements in our collection.
Let me make sure I’m reading this right, but the only way for you to accept a modern day genocide if the perpetrator of the genocide comes out with the same statements as Israeli leaders? That’s awfully narrow and rather off topic tbh.
The UN is reporting that the “anti-terrorist” laws in China are being abused in order to target a specific group of people and make their lives horrible. But I guess since their genocide is under the guise of “anti-terrorism” and China’s Minister of Defense didn’t call Uyghurs animals it doesn’t count.
And what “fabrication” are you talking about. Are you trying to deny that the Uyghurs aren’t being targeted?
For one condition could you provide a source that shows how Uyghurs are living perfectly peaceful lives without any genocidal intentions against them.
You're clearly intentionally misinterpreting me in bad faith
To the same point I've held throughout this entire conversation i.e that the actions of the Chinese government in the Xinjiang province do not constitute a genocide, I have literally used the definition you provided to illustrate how by that standard and using the evidence from the goverments accused themselves you can see how a real an active ongoing genocide such as the Israeli genocide of Palestinians in Gaza meets this definition, and that although the Chinese government has committed human right abuses in Xinjiang by the definition you provided they do not constitute a genocide
Smtn smtn reading comprehension skills or sum shit
Someone who’s committing a genocide isn’t boutta say “we’re committing a genocide” unless they believe they’re the master race like Israelis or Nazis. I don’t see how the Chinese gov targeting a specific demographic doesn’t fall into the definition 😭
Also I’m not “clearly intentionally misinterpreting [you] in bad faith” We’re on a social media platform retard this isn’t a court case where your character is on trial. I’m gonna say shit to make you mad.
Genocide is bad- why are you trying to devalue the struggle of the Uyghur people?
Also bro you sound like an 8th grader who thinks they’re the shit cause they watched a YouTube video about Mao. You talk all pseudo intellectual and try to use modifiers like “I concur” as if that strengthens your argument somehow. It doesn’t and it makes you sound dumb and like you have no ground to stand on.
" Also bro you sound like an 8th grader who thinks they’re the shit cause they watched a YouTube video about Mao. You talk all pseudo intellectual and try to use modifiers like “I concur” as if that strengthens your argument somehow. It doesn’t and it makes you sound dumb and like you have no ground to stand on.
you see, these 2 are equally as bad because a german that doesn't speak a word of mandarin and has not ever visited china provided me a satellite picture of a big building and wrote a fan fiction about it.
The worst accusation you could make about China's alleged warcrimes are how neutral they are in regards to Israel. They also sell guns to both sides of the Kashmir conflict, which isn't great. They have sold guns to Israel in the past as commerce, but that's a far cry from the west simply giving Israel weapons and intelligence for free.
Whereas the USA invades a new country on average every 1.5 years and has over 800 overseas military bases. China hasn't had an active overseas military conflict since the Vietnam war. This isn't a comparison at all.
One of the most frustrating things that I see so commonly, is that when there is criticism of the Chinese government, it is almost always redirected into whataboutism about the US.
I'm not from the US or China. My views are that both these governments are terrible, though I admittedly am not very informed about China. But these kinds of non-responses do not help.
Edit: I do realise that this meme itself sort of sets up the comparison, but I just wish we could analyse the actions of each government independently, without making excuses for one by pointing fingers at the other.
I'm sorry, is it discouraged to be self aware? It is very common to have preconceived ideas about things based on media/whatever, however I am trying to be self aware enough to realise that this view isn't based on very much research, which is why I'm trying to re-evaluate it.
Surely it is far more arrogant to assume I have no ill-informed views, and that I have never been affected by misinformation.
You're arguing with tankies. You are attacking China in their eyes. You are fighting a losing battle because you cannot convince them China has major faults and blemishes and systemic issues like the US.
I don't think that's a useful framing. The central thesis of most "tankies" is that the version of the PRC that exists in the minds of Westerners and the version that exists in reality are fundamentally different, and that this is largely due to a concerted effort by western countries to depict China in a negative light exclusively. That does not mean that there aren't serious problems with the PRC, or that it doesn't have a long way to go, but admitting to having a negative stance without doing much investigation means that they should investigate, rather than contribute to a miasma of other ill-informed takes.
I didn't know there were people still seriously trying to sell the "Uyghur genocide" propaganda nonsense. Mainstream media gave up on it years ago, and Israel showing what genocide actually looks like mostly put the last nail in the casket for all but the most committed sinophobes.
Israel are showing us what genocide actually looks like
There's levels of genocide - Uyghur is definitely one, Israel on Palestine is one, so was US on First Nations, then you've got the ones previously in the Balkans, Rwanda and the Caucasus which make all of those look like child's play
If it is definitely one, you might be able to post incontrovertible evidence of it, and not just an ASPI report linking to Adrian Zenz or a satellite photo of a building they pinky swear is a death camp?
The issue is, genocide deniers are very keen to dispute any readily available facts - Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Holodomor, etc deniers, along with flat earthers and other far-fetched conspiracy believers are willing to reject swathes of evidence and released documents that show intent and execution; I could link you interviews with Uyghurs saying they were forceably steralised or reeducated from respected sources (and am happy to) but it seems like you've already made your mind up so will just be selectively blind when reading them
Gaza, one of the poorest, most heavily policed and militarily surveiled regions in the world, managed to have incontrovertible truth of genocidal intent from day one. Years of slander from the MIC (profiting off that same genocide) about Xinjiang, a place anyone can go visit right now, which has had multiple outside probes, not a single piece of evidence.
No bro, the real genocide, the one that doesn't have a single piece of photographic or video evidence, where no probes have found any evidence, and where the allegedly victimized population has seen their standards of living rise enormously and the previously ubiquitous violence has all but stopped.
If the palestine genocide were a real one surely Blinken would have condemned it like he did the one they ~~fabricated~~ saw in Xinjiang.
If you want to boycott all the murderous sociopaths both foreign and domestic, you'll have to move into the forest, grow your own food, and either have your own grid or do without one all together.
Humans are the problem, fortunately for the earth and all the other life on it long term, we appear to be the final solution to ourselves. We'll make this rock unlivable for our very fragile bodies, the Earth will clean up after its failed mutation in a few million years just as it did after the trees of the carboniferous period caused an ice age, and beautiful homeostasis, that thing we refused to entertain, will be restored.
And nothing of value will have been lost. Too bad humanity largely genocided any cultures and gene pools that did live in harmony with nature, as they got in the way of our glorious metastasis.
I mean if you want to count down to the individual blood cell spilled of course is going to be different. But the pressures that make the US do horrible stuff are the same pressures that make China do horrible stuff are the same pressures that make any country do horrible stuff.
The wealthy and the powerful. Nobody else is interested in sticking their neck out. Those that are, are influenced by propaganda that is controlled by the wealthy and powerful.
I asked for evidence and you went into a rant with excuses for why you won't provide it lmao.
Stop grandstanding about the moral stand you're taking by believing blood libel about the yellow peril without the slightest resistance and no burden of proof.
China has paid a hundred trillion xibucks for thousands upon thousands of travel bloggers to film life around Xinjiang, plus hundreds of thousands of paid actors (in the enormous autonomous region where a genocide is taking place at the same time).
I can't believe you sheeple can't see the obvious truth.
Idk why there's such a pissing match in this post. Like honestly. Both our governments are shit. Why is this even a debate as to whose government is committing war crimes more? Your comment is the best comment here by far.
If a serial murderer told you that their victims were actually much worse than they are, would you believe them?
Yet the source of pretty much all anti-china atrocity propaganda is the US and its orgs like the victims of communism foundation. They want you to believe every single country they hate, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc... are guilty of the same crimes they are. Why do you believe them?
Ultimately we have more in common with a normal Chinese person just trying to live their lives than any of us do with our ruling classes. I'm sure those same ruling classes would rather us be less aware of that fact.
1 isn't a war crimes lmao 2 isn't a war crime 3. Isn't a war crime nor is there proof. Literal unbacked western propaganda, wanna know what is backed? Gaza, By the west and Sudan genocide by America via UAE RIGHT NOW, you can literally watch it unfold on all social media 4. Perhaps, I would need to do more research on this one, but didn't you got 3 wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if your wrong again. 5. Not a war crime
Edit: no idea how to do formatting on the phone, I apologise
Crimes against humanity are war crimes. Looting is a war crime. Invasion of a sovereign nation is an act of war. Stealing their resources is looting. Genocide is a crime against humanity and Tibet and the Uyghers are in one.
Wolf warriors that bury their head in the sand will suffocate under the lies.
Crimes against humanity aren't war crimes. You're reading comprehension is lacking my friend. The war in war crimes means warfare.
Speaking of genocides. You have mentioned two. Most genocides on the planet are actively done by America and it's allies or it supplies the weapons and silences the media.
Considering China having 5 times the population of america. Id say china has been very good comparatively on the world. Also nothing to say how 4 of 5 of your war crimes weren't at all war crimes??
What that? Came in commented something stupid and incorrect and you still think you really did something lmao. Bro nobody cares who you are, you've said nothing of substance or nothing savage. What a dork 🤣🤣
"War crimes, unlike crimes against humanity, are always committed in times of war." Thanks for giving me the direct source to prove you wrong. Are you not a native English speaker I'm so confused how you are still struggling with this" Never said china good I said name 5 Chinese war crimes
"War crimes, unlike crimes against humanity, are always committed in times of war." Did you at all read your own link? This is literally from the webpage Everything you said could be a war crime if one specific and incredibly obvious thing happens. It's during a war. Else it's a crime against humanity, which isn't a war crime. You literally linked the article and your still struggling with this??
There is no post-2021 evidence whatsoever of human right abuses of any sort in the Xinjiang province against Uyghur people. You can try to find stuff but you won't find anything, I dare you to send me a single article that has an actual reference to actual evidence of post-2021 human right abuses. Send me an article and point to the actual reference within the article. I dare you.
Uyghur Genocide and Concentrated Reeducation Camps in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China search.app/fyMhR137LTgqVkEJ8
Here is a report from the office of national intelligence last November listing all the data for the genocide.
So I checked it out... never directly states where the data is from ("PRC state media and data", "party documents and data reportedly obtained from local public security bureaus in Xinjiang", it continues to be this vague never specific throughout), most of the dates end in 2021/2022 (for the latter e.g. "the last date for which authorities have issued such reports", so that doesn't show it hasn't ended in 2021)
The closest thing you have in there is
the continued elevated number of indictments in 2022 suggests that the campaign continues
In a public statement on 27 August, the Office of the High Commissioner (OHCHR) stressed its engagement and recommendations in areas where it has been pushing for responses and results from the…
I never heard of the ISHR. They seem to be cagey about their funding sources 🤔
The actual UN OHCHR report is a one-pager that provides no detail or evidence to back up its mention of “limited access” and “fear of reprisals”: ohchr.org/en/press-briefing-no…
Weak tea.
ETA: Looking deeper, the funding seems to mostly come from NATO & NATO “partner” governments and the Ford Foundation.
The document is from a US intelligence agency from what it seems, it's poorly referenced, and even then there's nothing post-2021, is there?
I explicitly asked to please point at the reference within the article, because I'm exhausted of people just finding articles on google on this topic on western media and sending them to me without reading them. Please tell me what post-2021 huma right abuses are referenced and well-sourced in the report
You didn't download it did you? There is recent and relevant information about Uygher displacement and ethic cleansing. Why do you support ethnic cleansing?
Here's 5 actual war crimes 1. My Lai massacre Vietnam - America 2. Iraq invasion (there's thousands within this one including Abu ghraib) -america/nato 3- dressing up as medical personnel and massacring a refugee camp to save 1 person in gaza- Israel and America 4- a host of lesser known but many technical war crimes in Afghanistan like bombing undefended villages and towns culawreview.org/journal/double… 5- raping children and murdering their family. This is American tactic in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria with many documented cases
Following the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan, a substantial portion of media coverage and political debate focused on the glaring economic costs of the war.
What do you chuds not understand about "two countries are committing war crimes"? You asked about China and got an answer about China. You're trying to convince us who's the second worst empire.
I think you're missing the WAR part of the WAR CRIME. I thought you'd realise by now, but you're really digging yourself a hole. Funny thing is there are wars you could have mentioned and war crimes. The point of original comment was to draw our those without any knowledge like you 😜
That is true lmao, though I do believe in nuance, it's definitely not s black and white or a both sides equally bad sort of mindset
Also thank you, I was having issues with the text on the phone, question, how do I just take a break without a whole space between? If that makes sense
I mean how about this, you CAN use those sources, however I will not treat them as a sacred cow and given there track record when dealing with places the US does not like it will take me almost no time to debunk the claim, or point out how the source is not credible on this topic, then you will wace your hands and scream about some liberal media reliability rateing that cannot even get left right and center correct, even in the US overton window, an then I will have to debunk the new media reliability AND remind you of the previous debunk.
OR we can skip some of the easier ones to debunk and try to have an easier time in trying to understand reality, rather than just screaming and letting rich ghools make it up for us. The choice is yours
If your sources quote "anonymous sources" and nebulous "state documents" without providing access to them, those are shit sources. I wouldn't trust them even if I didn't know their track record of making shit up as long as their CIA ~~handler~~ contact "confirms" the story.
The US is currently in a trade war with China, and Britain is still salty about their loss of their hong kong in 1997. So it's best to get a source from a neutral country, rather than one of their current enemies.
For example, let's look at what the middle east (a region the US and Britain have also looted, colonized, and bombed for decades) has to say:
The US is currently in a trade war with China, and Britain is still salty about their loss of their hong kong in 1997. So it's best to get a source from a neutral country, rather than one of their current enemies.
For example, let's look at what the middle east (a region the US and Britain have also looted, colonized, and bombed for decades) has to say:
Despite claims of "erasing Uyghur culture", they stated: "I did not find any instance of forced labor or cultural and religious repression. The imams we met at the mosques and the students and teachers at the Xinjiang Islamic Institute told us that they enjoy freedom in practicing Islam and that the Chinese government extends support for maintenance of mosques all over Xinjiang. [...]The most visible sign of protection of Uyghur culture by the government is the government-run bilingual kindergarten schools where children learn Putonghua as well as Uyghur language and culture from a very young age."
BEIJING: Deputy Head of Mission, Pakistan Embassy in China, Mumtaz Zahra Baloch Thursday said the development of infrastructure, airports, railways and the road network has enhanced connectivity of...
you and this other guy are tankie trash, full stop. So does then make you fascist trash? This isn't the cold war and I was born in Scotland not Yugoslavia No buddy were just a bit brighter then you. There's 3 tiers of thinking. 'one side is wholly bad" Tier 2 "both sides are bad" Tier 3" both sides are bad but I want to look deeper into the complexites and nuances which made me realise, one side is infinitely worse" You're stuck on tier 2. i’m an american, i’m a little dull to the ol “it isn’t technically a war bc we didn’t declare war >:2” shit
You said it yourself you are pretty dull as you don't know what a freaking war crime Vs a crime against humanity is. A crime against humanity would be like slaving your citizens... Like how it's codified in American prison laws
The correct way is to argue passionately that your country has committed the MOST war crimes/genocides/human rights violations. Ya know, bragging rights.
"Anyone who isn't a ML is a fascist" is effectivepy what you said. Classic tankie red-fash bullshit. You bastards can only think in black or white, no nuance, no grey area, so rooted in the belief that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. You're so blinded by your hatred of American and western fascism you are blind to the rest of the world's descent into fascism. We live in a world ruled by fascism and imperialism, conflicts are just two fascist powers duking it out. China is just fascism with red aesthetics and America is just fascism with blue aesthetics.
I think you're making the same error you're trying to call out. Sorting through the flurry of insults, your core complaint is that Marxist-Leninists don't see nuance. I think this is disingenuous, Marxism-Leninism has strong theoretical foundations that are logically consistent. Similarly, you flip from the strawman that "everyone that isn't an ML is a fascist" to your own assertion that everyone is fascist, or at least it appears that's your claim. I don't really think you have a clear conception of what constitutes fascism, or if you do it isn't readily apparent, same with Imperialism.
I think if you want to understand MLs more you could probably be served better by trying to work from an initial place of trying to understand why MLs think the way they do, rather than trying to come up with post-hoc justifications.
'anyone who isn't a ML is a fascist" your whole argument is based off of something you imagined. No I'm stating it now I could not care less what your instance is, what level of mental illness do you need to start hostilities over you're freaking instance like who gives a shit. I'm just left leaning and my instance is set to read from all and subscribe to communities from all instances lmfao. Buddyyy go touch some grass
Deestan
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
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whyNotSquirrel
in reply to Deestan • • •Well, soon, I'm not sure
nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump…
How the Trump administration may crack down on the pro-Palestinian protest movement
Simone Weichselbaum (NBC News)like this
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geneva_convenience
in reply to Deestan • • •dreadbeef
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Rekorse
in reply to dreadbeef • • •Well considering a majority of americans think the tank guy got ran over and murdered on camera for everyone to see, maybe not so crazy they quash that one.
Edit: I encourage those who aren't aware to go watch the full footage, its not shocking in the least, many will find it anticlimactic even.
Edit 2: took forever to find the full video, its not in full on youtube or anything like that I could find: odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-…
The "Tank Man" - Tiananmen Square Protests 1989 (Full HD Video + Audio)
Odyseealcoholicorn
in reply to Deestan • • •explodicle
in reply to alcoholicorn • • •alcoholicorn
in reply to explodicle • • •Rekorse
in reply to alcoholicorn • • •rational_lib
in reply to alcoholicorn • • •But it's also worth noting that the Chinese don't even have that. At least in America, you can get your message out by getting a billionaire to agree with you.
Lucidlethargy
in reply to alcoholicorn • • •This is horse shit. There are examples of protests being countered (e.g. When Trump gassed protesters and clergy members to hold a Bible up upside down at their church), but these examples are rare and those people weren't actually "silenced". They told everyone about what happened.
Americans have freedom of speech protected by our constitution. China, on the other hand, has actual laws dictating against many forms of speech.
For example...
"The PRC bans certain content regarding independence movements in Tibet and Taiwan, the religious movement Falun Gong, democracy, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, Maoism, corruption, police brutality, anarchism, gossip, disparity of wealth, and food safety scandals."
Source:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censor…
restrictions on freedom of expression in China
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Rekorse
in reply to Lucidlethargy • • •How well did the protests about gaza go over then? You are hand waving away something we all lived through and saw. From unions to college campuses, protesting has never been a protected right. You can only protest as much as those in power allow you to in your area.
Even those not in power shit on protestors when it affects their lives. People start saying things like "thats not the way to protest" or "this isn't the time or place, have some respect".
Its bullshit, and we do not have the freedom to speak our minds, unless we already agree with what we are expected to.
nomy
in reply to Rekorse • • •Area set aside in public places for the purpose of political protesting
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Saleh
in reply to Lucidlethargy • • •The US cracked down on Gaza protests quite harshly. Many states enact book bans these days and some ban topics like slavery from schools. Also historically protests against Vietnam were partly gunned down. The black panthers were often murdered and in fighting them the US even bombed one of its own towns. Red Scare was huge and Ernest Hemmingway was probably driven to his suicide by FBI surveillance, for which he was called paranoid but later proofed real by declassified files.
Censorship in China goes farther, but the US is far from being a free speech haven or ever having been that.
ObliviousEnlightenment
in reply to Saleh • • •Droggelbecher
in reply to Deestan • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to Droggelbecher • • •- YouTube
youtube.comDroggelbecher
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Thanks for posting, didn't know about that!
To be fair I mainly wanted to jokingly tell the commentator that both china and the us are guilty of this, so I just mentioned a third country that I thought was decent. Thanks for educating :)
kautau
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •ShinkanTrain
in reply to kautau • • •kautau
in reply to ShinkanTrain • • •ShinkanTrain
in reply to kautau • • •kautau
in reply to ShinkanTrain • • •KILL_THE_GENSIDERS
in reply to Droggelbecher • • •THe netherlands have fascists in the governing coalition as we speak.
That's why lemmy.world is so right-wing
BrainInABox
in reply to Deestan • • •like this
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ShinkanTrain
in reply to Deestan • • •HandBash
in reply to ShinkanTrain • • •SmilingSolaris
in reply to HandBash • • •Outside of "Chinese man gets removed from his league of legends match cause a player talked about tiananmen square" memes, what do you know about Chinese censorship?
Talking out your ass
HandBash
in reply to SmilingSolaris • • •HandBash
in reply to SmilingSolaris • • •Dessalines
in reply to Deestan • • •belastend
in reply to Dessalines • • •Dessalines
in reply to belastend • • •What about the Tiananmen square massacre?
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn't a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in
... show moreWhat about the Tiananmen square massacre?
Looking back at Tiananmen Square, the defeat of counter-revolution in China - Freedom Road Socialist
admin (Freedom Road Socialist Organization | FRSO)Grapho
in reply to Dessalines • • •But the tank
Checkmate commies
Rekorse
in reply to Grapho • • •I just posted this elsewhere, and I'm sure you've already seen it but here's the full video of the tank man:
odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-…
Does not get run over, no violence.
The "Tank Man" - Tiananmen Square Protests 1989 (Full HD Video + Audio)
OdyseeGrapho
in reply to Rekorse • • •Rekorse
in reply to Grapho • • •tomatoely
in reply to Dessalines • • •davel
in reply to tomatoely • • •@dessalines@lemmy.ml, update your link for #4.
- YouTube
www.youtube.comlike this
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Dessalines
in reply to davel • • •Dessalines
in reply to tomatoely • • •- YouTube
www.youtube.comtomatoely
in reply to Dessalines • • •SmilingSolaris
in reply to belastend • • •EldritchFemininity
in reply to Deestan • • •aclu.org/documents/dissent-for…
Dissent Forced to be Out of Sight and Out of Mind
American Civil Liberties Unionwhere_am_i
in reply to EldritchFemininity • • •SmilingSolaris
in reply to where_am_i • • •HandBash
in reply to SmilingSolaris • • •SmilingSolaris
in reply to HandBash • • •Can you find me a person in China who will tell you that's true or did you pick that up from memes of people posting Winnie the Pooh xi?
You learned in highschool what a reliable source is and "cultural osmosis" is not a valid source.
ZeroOne
in reply to Deestan • • •ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •The US drops 46 bombs per day
China hasn't been in an active war in 46 years
war between the People's Republic of China and Socialist Republic of Vietnam in 1979
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)cosecantphi [he/him]
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •like this
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Aquilae [he/him, they/them]
in reply to cosecantphi [he/him] • • •ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to Aquilae [he/him, they/them] • • •underwire212
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •TranscendentalEmpire
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •like this
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Grapho
in reply to TranscendentalEmpire • • •That would not be an honest light. China actually takes their affirmative action seriously and not just pays lip service to it while continuing to enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai'i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
The claims of China's abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
People still on that "China genocide" bs are about as ridiculous as people claiming Iraq had WMDs into the Obama years. It's a level of gullibility so big that it has to be voluntary.
The Grayzone
Ajit Singh (The Grayzone)TranscendentalEmpire
in reply to Grapho • • •And the same has been said about tibet, inner Mongolia, and xinjiang. I mean you can look at Chinas own census data and see that han Chinese are migrating to cities in xinjiang, displacing ethnic minorities to move away from their cultural cities.
... show moreYou are conflating the accusations of genocide in one region w
And the same has been said about tibet, inner Mongolia, and xinjiang. I mean you can look at Chinas own census data and see that han Chinese are migrating to cities in xinjiang, displacing ethnic minorities to move away from their cultural cities.
You are conflating the accusations of genocide in one region with the accusations of ethnic discrimination. Even in that grey zone article it is conflating the study from some weird neocon group with all investigations into ethnic discrimination in China.
Han chauvinism is an established concept that even Mao took aims to curtail. Something they are still combating considering there has only been one ethnic minority to serve in the central committee in the last 35 years.
An actual criticism that I have about Xi is that he is a bit culturally conservative. The belt and road initiative utilized a lot of han centric language and the current central committee is notably the first committee that has no women serving on it in the last +25 years.
The Grayzone
Ajit Singh (The Grayzone)volodya_ilich
in reply to TranscendentalEmpire • • •You mean the US having the highest prison population in the world, to the point of 1 in 5 black men over 30 having been to jail at some point of their lives?
nooneescapesthelaw
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to nooneescapesthelaw • • •? The UN has thoroughly investigated and concluded that the 'Uyghur genocide' is a fabrication ohchr.org/en/documents/country… I suggest you read it rather than have it filtered through biased western media orgs, and I trust their investigation a lot more than those from countries like the US that have a vested interest in painting China as negatively as possible
Even if the propaganda were true it would constitute a crime against humanity not a war crime, unless you consider the ETIM terror campaign a 'war'
Devorlon
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to Devorlon • • •like this
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Devorlon
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Dessalines doesn't like this.
ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to Devorlon • • •davel
in reply to Devorlon • • •like this
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Devorlon
in reply to davel • • •j_overgrens
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •A fabrication? Did you even read that pdf? I quote:
volodya_ilich
in reply to j_overgrens • • •j_overgrens
in reply to volodya_ilich • • •ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to j_overgrens • • •j_overgrens
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Here you have comment, from this thread, of someone saying there's basically no problems:
lemmy.ml/comment/16144139
Denial of racism and abuse by the Chinese state is rampant here on Lemmy, don't pretend otherwise.
Oh and please don't assume my narrative. I hate the US more.
Grapho
2025-01-17 22:03:00
Here you have comment, from this thread, of someone saying there's basically no problems:
lemmy.ml/comment/16144139
Denial of racism and abuse by the Chinese state is rampant here on Lemmy, don't pretend otherwise.
Oh and please don't assume my narrative. I hate the US more.
Grapho
2025-01-17 22:03:00
ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to j_overgrens • • •You believe that china is engaging in a genocide first hand?(as opposed to simply supplying the perpetrators like the US )
And still hate the US more? do you live near a strong magnetic source? cause your moral compass is out of whack
Seriously though if you don't have a inherent bias against China, then why do you think their engaging in a genocide of Uyghurs with no evidence?
Juigi
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Chinese shills don't even read their own posts.
Fucking disappointing to see lemmy to be taken over by ccp sympathizers.
Next people here are gonna explain how students in Tiananmen Massacre deserved what they got.
Cya lemmy it was nice for a time!
volodya_ilich
in reply to Juigi • • •Kras Mazov
in reply to Juigi • • •Oh noes, the ebil gommunist seeseepee tankies!!!1!
How dare they stand for the truth that even the Arab League didn't find China commiting genocide or oppressing the people of Xinjiang and disproving the now abandoned false narrative about Tiananmen Square.
No no no, your views should thoroughly align with the US state department. CHINA IS EBIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Arab League’s visit to Xinjiang rejects Western accusations of ethnic genocide, religious persecution
www.globaltimes.cnIHave69XiBucks
in reply to Juigi • • •like this
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FunkyStuff [he/him]
in reply to Juigi • • •IHave69XiBucks
in reply to nooneescapesthelaw • • •You can watch this and look for any evidence of your claim. You wont see any. Or you can take my word for it when i tell you i literally spoke to a uyghur from Xinjiang on XHS the other day and they were chillin enjoying life.
Either way maybe dont just take the word of whatever Western Media mouthpieces tell you?
- YouTube
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markinov
in reply to IHave69XiBucks • • •alcibiades
in reply to IHave69XiBucks • • •C’mon bro we can’t seriously be debating if the Uyghur genocide is real. Obviously China isn’t all evil but this is a well documented genocide.
And bro why you pulling the “I’m not racist, I have a black friend” card. Shut yo bitch ass up
TC_209 [he/him, pup/pup's]
in reply to alcibiades • • •"May I see the documents?"
"...No."
alcibiades
in reply to TC_209 [he/him, pup/pup's] • • •Read the UN Report your fellow shill tried to cite.
You’re never gonna get the communist utopia you want, China is not your friend, stop acting like such a clown, get off the internet, loser, and touch grass
TC_209 [he/him, pup/pup's]
in reply to alcibiades • • •Is this, like, your catchphrase?
ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to alcibiades • • •source?
the UN, it addition to numerous countries including those with a Muslim majority population have investigated and concluded that the claims of genocide are a fabrication
The claims of genocide that appear in western media can be traced back to single source; Adrian Zenz a german christian fundamentalist who is on a self described 'holy war to destroy China' and writes books such has 'Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation,'
Do you really believe this nutjob is a more reliable source on events in Xinjiang than the UN's Office of Human Rights?
German anthropologist and sinologist
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)alcibiades
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Bro did you even read the wiki article you linked, idiot. It talks about how numerous agencies/new outlets confirmed his research that there exists an ongoing genocide, detention, and sterilization programs of Uyghurs. The article goes into detail on how Zenz is the target of multiple misinformation campaigns to cover up his research. However, it also notes that you are in part right because he is exaggerating the numbers. (At least your dense, mush brained ass got one part slightly right)
From the UN’s Report on Xinjiang, 2022
... show moreThe report goes onto state how Uyghur’s are placed in detention camps with terrible conditions where forced surgeries, sexual violence, and torture have
Bro did you even read the wiki article you linked, idiot. It talks about how numerous agencies/new outlets confirmed his research that there exists an ongoing genocide, detention, and sterilization programs of Uyghurs. The article goes into detail on how Zenz is the target of multiple misinformation campaigns to cover up his research. However, it also notes that you are in part right because he is exaggerating the numbers. (At least your dense, mush brained ass got one part slightly right)
From the UN’s Report on Xinjiang, 2022
The report goes onto state how Uyghur’s are placed in detention camps with terrible conditions where forced surgeries, sexual violence, and torture have been reported. (VIII, 145)
Multiple times the report states Uyghur’s are being stripped of their liberties in the region.
Why are you citing a source that doesn’t even reflect your claim 🤡 Learn to read, better luck next time
ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to alcibiades • • •Please read the entire article and don't just cheery pick the things that fit your pre-conceived notions
Stop moving the goalposts, my claim is that their is no genocide, the only source you quote alleges serious human rights violations, that while obviously terrible(and I condemn them, just as I condemn the US's similar but greater and larger in scale abuses committed at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, CIA blacksites etc), are not synonymous with genocide
Which sources on that page present evidence of genocide? if any such source exists why didn't you quote them?
alcibiades
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Read the UN’s definition of genocide and tell me this doesn’t fit the bill.
Why are you trying to argue the semantics of what’s happening to the Uyghurs? It’s a brain dead thing to argue and is also as you say “moving the goalposts” from your original claim which was “there is no genocide taking place.” + you’re wrong
Get a grip man
Definitions of Genocide and Related Crimes | United Nations
United NationsClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to alcibiades • • •I agree with the UN when they concluded that there is no genocide in Xinjiang
From the UN definition you supplied, one of condition that needs to be met;
So lets compare the fabrication with a real genocide such as the ongoing one in Gaza, they're are numerous statements from the Israeli government that declare such a genocidal intent, such as "Gazan civilians participated in the horrific events of October 7" "there are no innocent civilians there"
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly."
- Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant
And here's a database of 500 statements of genocidal intent
... show moreI agree with the UN when they concluded that there is no genocide in Xinjiang
From the UN definition you supplied, one of condition that needs to be met;
So lets compare the fabrication with a real genocide such as the ongoing one in Gaza, they're are numerous statements from the Israeli government that declare such a genocidal intent, such as "Gazan civilians participated in the horrific events of October 7" "there are no innocent civilians there"
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly."
- Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant
And here's a database of 500 statements of genocidal intent from Israeli government leaders
I'll repeat I don't deny that China has committed human rights abuses, but I concur with the UN OHCR that they fall far, far short of the definition legal and otherwise, of genocide
For this one condition to meet the definition, could you provide sources that show such a callous and widespread intent to wipe the Uyghurs off the face off the earth from the Chinese government similar to those from Israeli state for it's current genocide of Palestinians in Gaza?
Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated - Law for Palestine
admin (Law for Palestine)alcibiades
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Good intel on Israel, thanks?
Let me make sure I’m reading this right, but the only way for you to accept a modern day genocide if the perpetrator of the genocide comes out with the same statements as Israeli leaders? That’s awfully narrow and rather off topic tbh.
The UN is reporting that the “anti-terrorist” laws in China are being abused in order to target a specific group of people and make their lives horrible. But I guess since their genocide is under the guise of “anti-terrorism” and China’s Minister of Defense didn’t call Uyghurs animals it doesn’t count.
And what “fabrication” are you talking about. Are you trying to deny that the Uyghurs aren’t being targeted?
For one condition could you provide a source that shows how Uyghurs are living perfectly peaceful lives without any genocidal intentions against them.
ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to alcibiades • • •You're clearly intentionally misinterpreting me in bad faith
To the same point I've held throughout this entire conversation i.e that the actions of the Chinese government in the Xinjiang province do not constitute a genocide, I have literally used the definition you provided to illustrate how by that standard and using the evidence from the goverments accused themselves you can see how a real an active ongoing genocide such as the Israeli genocide of Palestinians in Gaza meets this definition, and that although the Chinese government has committed human right abuses in Xinjiang by the definition you provided they do not constitute a genocide
alcibiades
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Smtn smtn reading comprehension skills or sum shit
Someone who’s committing a genocide isn’t boutta say “we’re committing a genocide” unless they believe they’re the master race like Israelis or Nazis. I don’t see how the Chinese gov targeting a specific demographic doesn’t fall into the definition 😭
Also I’m not “clearly intentionally misinterpreting [you] in bad faith” We’re on a social media platform retard this isn’t a court case where your character is on trial. I’m gonna say shit to make you mad.
Genocide is bad- why are you trying to devalue the struggle of the Uyghur people?
alcibiades
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Also bro you sound like an 8th grader who thinks they’re the shit cause they watched a YouTube video about Mao. You talk all pseudo intellectual and try to use modifiers like “I concur” as if that strengthens your argument somehow. It doesn’t and it makes you sound dumb and like you have no ground to stand on.
Go touch some grass you loser
ClathrateG [none/use name]
in reply to alcibiades • • •" Also bro you sound like an 8th grader who thinks they’re the shit cause they watched a YouTube video about Mao. You talk all pseudo intellectual and try to use modifiers like “I concur” as if that strengthens your argument somehow. It doesn’t and it makes you sound dumb and like you have no ground to stand on.
Go touch some grass you loser "
-
alcibiades
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to nooneescapesthelaw • • •Grapho
in reply to ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them] • • •like this
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小莱卡
in reply to ClathrateG [none/use name] • • •Hestia [she/her, fae/faer]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Hard to commit warcrimes when you don't participate in war.
axont [she/her, comrade/them]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •The worst accusation you could make about China's alleged warcrimes are how neutral they are in regards to Israel. They also sell guns to both sides of the Kashmir conflict, which isn't great. They have sold guns to Israel in the past as commerce, but that's a far cry from the west simply giving Israel weapons and intelligence for free.
Whereas the USA invades a new country on average every 1.5 years and has over 800 overseas military bases. China hasn't had an active overseas military conflict since the Vietnam war. This isn't a comparison at all.
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Erika3sis [she/her, xe/xem]
in reply to axont [she/her, comrade/them] • • •Kacarott
in reply to axont [she/her, comrade/them] • • •One of the most frustrating things that I see so commonly, is that when there is criticism of the Chinese government, it is almost always redirected into whataboutism about the US.
I'm not from the US or China. My views are that both these governments are terrible, though I admittedly am not very informed about China. But these kinds of non-responses do not help.
Edit: I do realise that this meme itself sort of sets up the comparison, but I just wish we could analyse the actions of each government independently, without making excuses for one by pointing fingers at the other.
BrainInABox
in reply to Kacarott • • •like this
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Kacarott
in reply to BrainInABox • • •I'm sorry, is it discouraged to be self aware? It is very common to have preconceived ideas about things based on media/whatever, however I am trying to be self aware enough to realise that this view isn't based on very much research, which is why I'm trying to re-evaluate it.
Surely it is far more arrogant to assume I have no ill-informed views, and that I have never been affected by misinformation.
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dreadbeef
in reply to Kacarott • • •Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to dreadbeef • • •小莱卡
in reply to Kacarott • • •volodya_ilich
in reply to Kacarott • • •Rofl. Lmao even
MissJinx
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •roux [they/them, xe/xem]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to roux [they/them, xe/xem] • • •BrainInABox
Unknown parent • • •BrainInABox
Unknown parent • • •1rre
in reply to BrainInABox • • •There's levels of genocide - Uyghur is definitely one, Israel on Palestine is one, so was US on First Nations, then you've got the ones previously in the Balkans, Rwanda and the Caucasus which make all of those look like child's play
eldavi
Unknown parent • • •like this
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Gucci_Minh [he/him]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Chuymatt
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •belastend
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Grapho
in reply to 1rre • • •1rre
in reply to Grapho • • •The issue is, genocide deniers are very keen to dispute any readily available facts - Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Holodomor, etc deniers, along with flat earthers and other far-fetched conspiracy believers are willing to reject swathes of evidence and released documents that show intent and execution; I could link you interviews with Uyghurs saying they were forceably steralised or reeducated from respected sources (and am happy to) but it seems like you've already made your mind up so will just be selectively blind when reading them
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ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
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Big Miku
in reply to ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them] • • •Red Army Dog Cooper
in reply to ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them] • • •Grapho
in reply to 1rre • • •A simple "no" would have sufficed.
Gaza, one of the poorest, most heavily policed and militarily surveiled regions in the world, managed to have incontrovertible truth of genocidal intent from day one. Years of slander from the MIC (profiting off that same genocide) about Xinjiang, a place anyone can go visit right now, which has had multiple outside probes, not a single piece of evidence.
Grapho
in reply to eldavi • • •No bro, the real genocide, the one that doesn't have a single piece of photographic or video evidence, where no probes have found any evidence, and where the allegedly victimized population has seen their standards of living rise enormously and the previously ubiquitous violence has all but stopped.
If the palestine genocide were a real one surely Blinken would have condemned it like he did the one they ~~fabricated~~ saw in Xinjiang.
Opinion | Xinjiang: what the West doesn’t tell you about China’s war on terror
Weijian Shan (South China Morning Post)like this
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Allonzee
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •If you want to boycott all the murderous sociopaths both foreign and domestic, you'll have to move into the forest, grow your own food, and either have your own grid or do without one all together.
Humans are the problem, fortunately for the earth and all the other life on it long term, we appear to be the final solution to ourselves. We'll make this rock unlivable for our very fragile bodies, the Earth will clean up after its failed mutation in a few million years just as it did after the trees of the carboniferous period caused an ice age, and beautiful homeostasis, that thing we refused to entertain, will be restored.
And nothing of value will have been lost. Too bad humanity largely genocided any cultures and gene pools that did live in harmony with nature, as they got in the way of our glorious metastasis.
1rre
in reply to Grapho • • •Thanks for proving my point that you reject even being offered evidence because you don't want to see something that challenges your worldview.
I could've spent time compiling a list, but you'd either ignore it or say it's a biased source because it's non-chinese or something.
小莱卡
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •UltraGiGaGigantic
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •deaf_fish
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •don't like this
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小莱卡
in reply to deaf_fish • • •deaf_fish
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •小莱卡
in reply to deaf_fish • • •deaf_fish
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •holo
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •Grapho
in reply to 1rre • • •I asked for evidence and you went into a rant with excuses for why you won't provide it lmao.
Stop grandstanding about the moral stand you're taking by believing blood libel about the yellow peril without the slightest resistance and no burden of proof.
China and Amnesty International - Here Comes China!
Here Comes China!like this
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小莱卡
Unknown parent • • •小莱卡
Unknown parent • • •小莱卡
in reply to Grapho • • •小莱卡
in reply to 1rre • • •like this
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Grapho
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •China has paid a hundred trillion xibucks for thousands upon thousands of travel bloggers to film life around Xinjiang, plus hundreds of thousands of paid actors (in the enormous autonomous region where a genocide is taking place at the same time).
I can't believe you sheeple can't see the obvious truth.
Agent641
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •TheBeege
in reply to Agent641 • • •UltraGiGaGigantic
in reply to Agent641 • • •ChillPenguin
in reply to Agent641 • • •don't like this
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Dessalines
in reply to ChillPenguin • • •If a serial murderer told you that their victims were actually much worse than they are, would you believe them?
Yet the source of pretty much all anti-china atrocity propaganda is the US and its orgs like the victims of communism foundation. They want you to believe every single country they hate, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc... are guilty of the same crimes they are. Why do you believe them?
nomy
in reply to Agent641 • • •KILL_THE_GENSIDERS
in reply to 1rre • • •Shut the fuck up you fritz your tax-payer euros are funding for extermination of arabs.
Look at yourself in the mirror before accusing others you hypocritical bitch
KILL_THE_GENSIDERS
in reply to 1rre • • •bbc.com/news/world-middle-east…
How's that for a proof you nazi fuck?
Germany faces genocide case over Israel weapon sales
Matt Murphy (BBC News)Shezzagrad
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Malek061
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Shezzagrad
in reply to Malek061 • • •1 isn't a war crimes lmao
2 isn't a war crime
3. Isn't a war crime nor is there proof. Literal unbacked western propaganda, wanna know what is backed? Gaza, By the west and Sudan genocide by America via UAE RIGHT NOW, you can literally watch it unfold on all social media
4. Perhaps, I would need to do more research on this one, but didn't you got 3 wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if your wrong again.
5. Not a war crime
Edit: no idea how to do formatting on the phone, I apologise
Malek061
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Crimes against humanity are war crimes. Looting is a war crime. Invasion of a sovereign nation is an act of war. Stealing their resources is looting. Genocide is a crime against humanity and Tibet and the Uyghers are in one.
Wolf warriors that bury their head in the sand will suffocate under the lies.
China has been real bad.
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Shezzagrad
in reply to Malek061 • • •Crimes against humanity aren't war crimes. You're reading comprehension is lacking my friend. The war in war crimes means warfare.
Speaking of genocides. You have mentioned two. Most genocides on the planet are actively done by America and it's allies or it supplies the weapons and silences the media.
Considering China having 5 times the population of america. Id say china has been very good comparatively on the world. Also nothing to say how 4 of 5 of your war crimes weren't at all war crimes??
ZeroOne
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Shezzagrad
in reply to ZeroOne • • •ZeroOne
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Shezzagrad
in reply to ZeroOne • • •Malek061
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •The International Criminal Court (ICC) | International peace and security | Government.nl search.app/iKiJrEFeMYP2nzF76
The International Criminal Court (ICC)
search.appShezzagrad
in reply to Malek061 • • •Thanks for giving me the direct source to prove you wrong. Are you not a native English speaker I'm so confused how you are still struggling with this"
Never said china good
I said name 5 Chinese war crimes
Malek061
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Shezzagrad
in reply to Malek061 • • •Did you at all read your own link? This is literally from the webpage
Everything you said could be a war crime if one specific and incredibly obvious thing happens. It's during a war. Else it's a crime against humanity, which isn't a war crime. You literally linked the article and your still struggling with this??
volodya_ilich
in reply to Malek061 • • •There is no post-2021 evidence whatsoever of human right abuses of any sort in the Xinjiang province against Uyghur people. You can try to find stuff but you won't find anything, I dare you to send me a single article that has an actual reference to actual evidence of post-2021 human right abuses. Send me an article and point to the actual reference within the article. I dare you.
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Malek061
in reply to volodya_ilich • • •Uyghur Genocide and Concentrated Reeducation Camps in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China search.app/fyMhR137LTgqVkEJ8
Here is a report from the office of national intelligence last November listing all the data for the genocide.
Uyghur Genocide and Concentrated Reeducation Camps in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China
search.app∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/it/its/its/itself, she/her/her/hers/herself, fae/faer/faer/faers/faerself, love/love/loves/loves/loveself, des/pair, null/void, none/use name]
in reply to Malek061 • • •So I checked it out... never directly states where the data is from ("PRC state media and data", "party documents and data reportedly obtained from local public security bureaus in Xinjiang", it continues to be this vague never specific throughout), most of the dates end in 2021/2022 (for the latter e.g. "the last date for which authorities have issued such reports", so that doesn't show it hasn't ended in 2021)
The closest thing you have in there is
Are there other, better, sources?
Malek061
in reply to ∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/it/its/its/itself, she/her/her/hers/herself, fae/faer/faer/faers/faerself, love/love/loves/loves/loveself, des/pair, null/void, none/use name] • • •Two years after Xinjiang findings, UN reports ‘limited access to information’, ‘reprisals’ against activists | ISHR search.app/rTPVgDbwvYQ9ozAEA
China is refusing to allow an investigation. That's a presumption of guilt.
Two years after Xinjiang findings, UN reports ‘limited access to information’, ‘reprisals’ against activists
ISHRdavel
in reply to Malek061 • • •I never heard of the ISHR. They seem to be cagey about their funding sources 🤔
The actual UN OHCHR report is a one-pager that provides no detail or evidence to back up its mention of “limited access” and “fear of reprisals”: ohchr.org/en/press-briefing-no…
Weak tea.
ETA: Looking deeper, the funding seems to mostly come from NATO & NATO “partner” governments and the Ford Foundation.
Nonprofit organization
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)volodya_ilich
in reply to Malek061 • • •The document is from a US intelligence agency from what it seems, it's poorly referenced, and even then there's nothing post-2021, is there?
I explicitly asked to please point at the reference within the article, because I'm exhausted of people just finding articles on google on this topic on western media and sending them to me without reading them. Please tell me what post-2021 huma right abuses are referenced and well-sourced in the report
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Malek061
in reply to volodya_ilich • • •volodya_ilich
in reply to Malek061 • • •Again: point out the exact reference in the "report", because I simply can't find it, I already asked you twice to do that.
Anyway, amazing that your argument is "look, Uyghur genocide is real. And here's the evidence: US intelligence state propaganda"
Shezzagrad
in reply to Malek061 • • •1. My Lai massacre Vietnam - America
2. Iraq invasion (there's thousands within this one including Abu ghraib) -america/nato
3- dressing up as medical personnel and massacring a refugee camp to save 1 person in gaza- Israel and America
4- a host of lesser known but many technical war crimes in Afghanistan like bombing undefended villages and towns culawreview.org/journal/double…
5- raping children and murdering their family. This is American tactic in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria with many documented cases
Double Standards in International Law: Did the U.S. Get Away with War Crimes in Afghanistan?
Selma Nouri (Columbia Undergraduate Law Review)explodicle
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Shezzagrad
in reply to explodicle • • •explodicle
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •I'm explaining to you why this comparison is a poor argument, not volunteering to dance around various different arguments all day.
Edit: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-an…
type of informal fallacy
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)TheReturnOfPEB
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •yes we are now doing exactly what the meme at the top of the page is doing.
fyi: two spaces at the end of a line will format that correctly as a newline
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Shezzagrad
in reply to TheReturnOfPEB • • •That is true lmao, though I do believe in nuance, it's definitely not s black and white or a both sides equally bad sort of mindset
Also thank you, I was having issues with the text on the phone, question, how do I just take a break without a whole space between? If that makes sense
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/it/its/its/itself, she/her/her/hers/herself, fae/faer/faer/faers/faerself, love/love/loves/loves/loveself, des/pair, null/void, none/use name]
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Makes a new line
Strawberry
in reply to Malek061 • • •ObliviousEnlightenment
in reply to Strawberry • • •Strawberry
in reply to ObliviousEnlightenment • • •Dessalines
in reply to Malek061 • • •Malek061
in reply to Dessalines • • •Red Army Dog Cooper
in reply to Malek061 • • •I mean how about this, you CAN use those sources, however I will not treat them as a sacred cow and given there track record when dealing with places the US does not like it will take me almost no time to debunk the claim, or point out how the source is not credible on this topic, then you will wace your hands and scream about some liberal media reliability rateing that cannot even get left right and center correct, even in the US overton window, an then I will have to debunk the new media reliability AND remind you of the previous debunk.
OR we can skip some of the easier ones to debunk and try to have an easier time in trying to understand reality, rather than just screaming and letting rich ghools make it up for us. The choice is yours
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Grapho
in reply to Malek061 • • •LoudWaterHombre
in reply to Dessalines • • •Dessalines
in reply to LoudWaterHombre • • •The US is currently in a trade war with China, and Britain is still salty about their loss of their hong kong in 1997. So it's best to get a source from a neutral country, rather than one of their current enemies.
For example, let's look at what the middle east (a region the US and Britain have also looted, colonized, and bombed for decades) has to say:
- A majority of Muslim countries support China's policies in XinJiang, and don't believe the western lies told about it.. 54 Countries in total. 2,
... show moreThe US is currently in a trade war with China, and Britain is still salty about their loss of their hong kong in 1997. So it's best to get a source from a neutral country, rather than one of their current enemies.
For example, let's look at what the middle east (a region the US and Britain have also looted, colonized, and bombed for decades) has to say:
Pakistani diplomat narrates visit to China's Xinjiang
APP (The News International)Shezzagrad
Unknown parent • • •You said it yourself you are pretty dull as you don't know what a freaking war crime Vs a crime against humanity is. A crime against humanity would be like slaving your citizens... Like how it's codified in American prison laws
Doomsider
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •They are both wrong.
The correct way is to argue passionately that your country has committed the MOST war crimes/genocides/human rights violations. Ya know, bragging rights.
Saleh
in reply to Doomsider • • •ReakDuck
in reply to Saleh • • •LoudWaterHombre
in reply to Saleh • • •Malek061
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Here is the definition. A crime against humanity is a war crime.
The International Criminal Court (ICC) | International peace and security | Government.nl search.app/iKiJrEFeMYP2nzF76
The International Criminal Court (ICC)
search.appComrade Spood
in reply to Shezzagrad • • •Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to Comrade Spood • • •I think you're making the same error you're trying to call out. Sorting through the flurry of insults, your core complaint is that Marxist-Leninists don't see nuance. I think this is disingenuous, Marxism-Leninism has strong theoretical foundations that are logically consistent. Similarly, you flip from the strawman that "everyone that isn't an ML is a fascist" to your own assertion that everyone is fascist, or at least it appears that's your claim. I don't really think you have a clear conception of what constitutes fascism, or if you do it isn't readily apparent, same with Imperialism.
I think if you want to understand MLs more you could probably be served better by trying to work from an initial place of trying to understand why MLs think the way they do, rather than trying to come up with post-hoc justifications.
Shezzagrad
in reply to Comrade Spood • • •