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in reply to mcc

i have never changed anything relevant in about:config and yet the exactly one time i've ever seen it try to push an ai feature it had an obvious button to disable it?
in reply to leo vriska

1. It is my belief that the AI previews and tab grouping AI are very probably running on your machine and waiting for you to accidentally kick them off, for example by accidentally pressing shift over a link.

2. Do you have "studies" turned on? I believe some of the AI was turned on for random people but not others based on "studies".

in reply to mcc

1. the previews were the one time i mentioned and i found it very clear how to disable it. automatic tab groups are afaik a button that only does anything if you click it (i looked into the posts about performance issues from them going around a few months ago and they seemed like misinformation?)
2. yes
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to leo vriska

"don't click the button" as far as I'm concerned is "we're waiting until you click this button by accident"
in reply to mcc

i mean, fair i guess, but that button is in a feature i don't use anyway (and, like, the worst case is that it uses 0.1% of the cpu time it takes for me to launch minecraft, it's a tiny semantic similarity model and not even any kind of recent technology)
in reply to mcc

like if i stopped using Google because Google turned into an obstacle course of not clicking the button that launches the AI why should I treat Firefox any different as they hide AI buttons in more and more places all over the interface
in reply to mcc

i mean i get your point about not wanting it to be present at all but semantically i would consider this to qualify as "opt-in" personally
in reply to mcc

About 1., as far as I understand, they all run locally. Is the problem for you that it has "AI" written on it?

@leo

in reply to Julien W.

1. Not true, firefox has integration with multiple cloud providers (perplexity search, chatgpt chat)

2. The fact that AI runs in the cloud is *one problem* with it. There are still the problems of IP theft, the fact the product does not work, the fact the project is overall part of a fascist project. "Local first" AI is like "less cyanide" toothpaste.

3. "AI" is a meaningless phrase, but branding something as "AI" is indeed a good sign you're doing something wrong.

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to mcc

Think about it this way. Imagine the reasons, when you hear a product or project has "local AI", would make you go "oh, neat" and want to use that project. Those are the reasons I want to not use it. I feel strongly enough about those reasons I would want to boycott any organization that ships "AI". The phrase "AI" communicates something to both of us and the thing it communicates to me is bad.
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to mcc

1. Yes Firefox has integration with these, but they're not used at all for the features you mentioned (tab grouping / preview).
2. I was told that the data used for these features are well-known data.
3. I don't know, it depends who you're talking to. Talking to tech-savyy people, it would probably be good to talk about specific models and things like that, but for the general audience it's another story, I believe.
in reply to leo vriska

@leo is librewolf that bad to others? It's been a complete upgrade in every way from mainline FF since I got on here. I could change about:config settings and they'd be permanent like the old days, nothing I didn't want was there, all the stuff I'd flip on/off with arkenfox was already done, etc.
in reply to tef

Librewolf has the same AI features Firefox does, they're just turned off by default instead of turned on by default. Librewolf does not have the resources to remove sections of code and maintain patches with sections of code removed.
in reply to tef

mastodon.social/@mcc/115730255…


To be clear, "it's there but you can turn it off" is not enough for me, I already stopped using SwiftKey, Microsoft Windows, Miro, etc on the basis of "we put AI in the software with an option to turn it off". If an org ships a "generative AI" product I want to boycott them and I want everyone to boycott them until they go out of business. I don't want a virus on my hard drive even if it's turned off. But Mozilla's ever-shifting checkbox scavenger hunt has never *resembled* "can easily turn off"

in reply to mcc

@leo I guess it is a fair point that unless you track network requests some kind of surreptitiously-added feature could still be sending things somewhere. I can't say much beyond that except that I don't know of a viable alternative any better than FF/forks; everything else is either unusable as a mainline web browser atm or actively evil (so, chrome and chrome derivatives)
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to tef

@leo like, surely no one thinks switching to chromium over this is better; that browser and all of its forks are *genuinely* untrustworthy without some very invasive surgery if at all
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to tef

What I'm currently doing is using Firefox ESR which gives me a one-year delay on figuring out which about:config flags banish AI from the interface (no loss since all new Firefox features are bad). I haven't gotten clear answers from Debian about whether they will take a LibreWolf stance on the generative AI but they've *usually* disabled Firefox's worst part, so maybe once my Windows machine fails for the last time Debian will simply put me in "LibreWolf but better" territory.
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to mcc

One thing I am seriously considering is using Vivaldi. Although it's most likely they've hidden rather than patched out the "AI" features, they're the one browser org I know of to have taken a strong anti-AI stance. The thing keeping me away is last time I tried a Chromium browser on Linux it had platform-specific bugs, so that's gonna be an auditioning thing.

The only real solution is for Servo to reach viability and then switch to that, but that's a slow process.

in reply to mcc

I don't think trusting chromium, no matter how modified, is a good idea but I can't make the decision for anyone else of course
in reply to tef

I have just said I am not using Chromium and my goal is to use Servo. My first priority is to get Firefox and Chrome ("AI" browsers) off my computer and then as a second order effect I will be balancing "Firefox is actually a worse browser than Chrome" with "Chromium is downstream from an untrustworthy organization". But I haven't yet achieved my goal of getting Firefox off my computer, so I'm not in a position to weigh distrust versus other factors.
in reply to mcc

i just meant i don't think "chromium fork" and "chromium" should be treated differently without extreme care and a ton of upfront work I don't trust forks to do
in reply to tef

okay, but you're telling me i should treat "firefox" and "firefox fork" fundamentally differently? I don't know
in reply to mcc

Yeah, IMO distro packagers are far less incentivized to screw you over so that makes sense enough to me
in reply to tef

I think it's more that Debian is an ideologically driven organization to whatever extent
in reply to mcc

Currently the LibreWolf project seems to be focused on disabling among other things the telemetry and AI features that Mozilla keep on stuffing into Firefox.

They appear to be doing an OK job of it although my ability to audit the project is limited by my limited IT skills.

I am also trialing the "de-Googled Chromium" based browser Helium which seems faster than Chromium on the devices I have tried it on and apparently that project is also privacy focused.

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to leo vriska

yeah I've seen many of these posts how I need to disable like 10 flags but it was really just one button press right next to the feature
in reply to pancake ​

But there are ten features and you have to run around the entire interface looking for their ten checkboxes. And you still have to go into about:config if you don't want the button to activate the thing you don't want to hover there waiting for you to click it
in reply to mcc

> ecosystem of trusted software

* starts by betraying users with opt-out features nobody wants.

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to mcc

To be clear, "it's there but you can turn it off" is not enough for me, I already stopped using SwiftKey, Microsoft Windows, Miro, etc on the basis of "we put AI in the software with an option to turn it off". If an org ships a "generative AI" product I want to boycott them and I want everyone to boycott them until they go out of business. I don't want a virus on my hard drive even if it's turned off. But Mozilla's ever-shifting checkbox scavenger hunt has never *resembled* "can easily turn off"

reshared this

in reply to mcc

"I don't want a virus on my hard drive even if it's turned off." This, a thousand and eleven percent.

Mother Bones reshared this.

in reply to mcc

Would be so much less bad if instead MF said and operated like ""AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn ON."

mcc reshared this.

in reply to mcc

Once a project includes AI… no, once a project's leaders enthuse about AI, that's when I lose my trust in it. We know it's a monopolist eco disaster of a wrong answer machine. The only sensible move is not to touch it. If they can't see that, what other mistakes are they making and not telling me about?

mcc reshared this.

in reply to Roger BW 😷

@RogerBW The fault here is that you assume that you, or in fact the product, are more important than the valuation of the stock. This is not the case. These executive might be fully aware that adding Gen-AI to their product achieves nothing, but they're also aware that if they don't do it, and if their valuation falls behind because of it, their jobs are at risk (along with their options, etc.)

So they go out there and enthuse about AI, knowing full well they'll soon be in a "well we really had high hopes but it didn't turn out that way so oops now no Gen-AI" when the bubble bursts.

in reply to mcc

in reply to mcc

i havent used those others but-- every other application that has said 'its there but you can turn it off' has ended up lying when everyone turned it off!!
in reply to Jeff Cutsinger

Firefox ESR. Which isn't good enough but at least means I get 1 year between new antifeature dumps to research how to turn off the antifeatures :(

I am considering Vivaldi and desperately looking forward to a web-capable version of Servo.

in reply to mcc

oddly, a function they put in there to prevent users in businesses from willy-nilly installing updates without approval is your friend in this! In effect one JSON file in a specific directory makes the system thinks your "admin" has "disabled updates," even if that's you.

It works well on Mac; unsure about Windows or Linux as far as where it goes.

reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/…

in reply to The Turtle

I need updates because the updates contain security fixes. What I don't need is feature updates. Unfortunately, although Firefox has a "security updates but not feature updates" channel, it still adds new features once a year. The ideal Firefox would be if the 128esr branch could be maintained forever

Mother Bones reshared this.

in reply to mcc

BTW what do you use instead of SwiftKey now? I tried to switch to something else in the past, but I always had to come back, IDK if that's because it's still significantly better than the competition or because 10 years of usage made it so ingrained in my fingers.
in reply to Matteꙮ Italia

GBoard but it's started aggressively inserting racial slurs into my typing despite me having the "avoid curse words" setting on so I'm going to try Keyboard Designer this week.
in reply to mcc

since no browsers outside of safari, chrome, firefox and their clones exists, we are left with good forks like waterfox etc.
in reply to mcc

when l looked in about:config there were lots of settings involving AI. I know some of them just clutter up the UI and of course Google (AI by default) is the default search engine and Firefox has its own local AI for translation ( but you have to install) and there is something that mucks about with your tab groups.
But when I last checked the field for which LLM to use was still blank: I assume they want someone to offer them money for that.
Bit needless to say I do turn everything AI related I'm aware of off.
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to mcc

AI, a product nearly universally loathed, yet is still being funded at scale.

What happens when the AI bubble bursts?

When the data centers are sold for parts in bankruptcy sales?

Firefox will have rebuilt itself around a service no longer available & gets bricked.

Who jumps on a bandwagon with this level of risk?

in reply to Nicole Parsons

Because Firefox has a focus on "local models", their "AI" solutions will almost certainly keep running if the cloud providers shut down or introduce paywalls.

Unfortunately.

in reply to mcc

I assume this will not leak into forks like LibreWolf?
in reply to Polina

@polinakuzova LibreWolf has been disabling each added piece of AI Firefox adds. In essence, they have been doing the bureaucratic work of finding the opt outs whereever they have been hidden and checking them for you.
in reply to mcc

Agreed. Though for EFF coveryourtrack, it produces unique fingerprint where Firefox produces nearly unique (Brave is randomized). With uBlock Origin, LibreWolf produces a nearly-unique fingerprint.

All depending on the IP and other addons enabled of course. Unless my configuration is missing something.

in reply to Polina

@polinakuzova Personally I am not interested in the fingerprinting-related features of LibreWolf and I turn them off.