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I'm really excited about how well one of my new lesson ideas for fifth grade CS is working out.

I teach them to count in binary early in the class which they LOVE. In the new lesson I have seven sets of cards with numbers and symbols on them from:

binary
hexadecimal
base 3
base 3 but with different symbols
base 5 but with different symbols
cuneiform
decimal

Each set of cards contains numbers from 1 to 150. Students put them in order and match symbols of the same value.

It's chaos.

This entry was edited (1 month ago)

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in reply to myrmepropagandist

We then work on short conversion programs in python. If anything they come out of it with a better understanding of multiple number bases... but I think we could also learn some things about sorting with some adaptation.
in reply to myrmepropagandist

I have a worksheet where you add, subtract, multiply and divide words in HEX and fifth graders find this VERY amusing.

Things like D6FD-CAFE=BFF

(If you know of any good hex math problems like this please share as I collect them. )

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in reply to myrmepropagandist

I asked chatGPT to make some problems for me. It couldn't understand what I was asking for.

Also they have put up a new paywall today you get five chats a day. Let's see how many people sign up.

(I will write a program to make some amusing problems for me, I already have an English dictionary I use for my "wordle cheating" programs... this should be fun.)

in reply to myrmepropagandist

It's not my main objection to generative "AI" but I think a lot of people miss how much more fun it is to work things out yourself. It's sold as saving time or effort, but it's also saving you from having certain (admittedly nerdy) kinds of fun, and I don't want saved from that.
in reply to myrmepropagandist

I don't feel I need to give it a chance. If it gets as good as promised, there's no reason for me to learn how to work around its deficiencies now; it'll just be directly and easily usable by asking it questions naturally without any training or practice.

If it never does get that good, there isn't any reason for me to use it.

in reply to Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫

@Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫ I fully agree with you and at the same time I'm glad I'm not in a position where I would have to answer inquisitive questions about giving the tech a chance like @myrmepropagandist seems to be in.

I read enough about toxic sludge to not want to give it a chance, and I don't have to prove anything to anyone about trying out toxic sludge.

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to myrmepropagandist

Will you put a conversion for "O=0" "T=7" "I=1" in your program for more options or only use the actual letters?
in reply to myrmepropagandist

I trust you used the old joke about why CS folks exchange gifts on Halloween 🎃 🎁.

Because Oct 31 = Dec 25 😄

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in reply to myrmepropagandist

I wrote a python script to find words that are valid hex. That might be useful for finding interesting word problems...
in reply to myrmepropagandist

a quick scan with English dictionary words finds exactly one triple that work as a hexadecimal sum.

BED + BE = CAB

Many school districts/admins would frown upon double entendre invited by
BED + 12₁₆ = BED + 18₁₀ = BFF
(but at least it reserves adultery for adults?)

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in reply to myrmepropagandist

Relatedly:

>>> int('111', base=37)
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
ValueError: int() base must be >= 2 and <= 36, or 0

What. So is there a standard library function for converting number bases in python?

#python

in reply to Albert Cardona

@Albert Cardona @myrmepropagandist This limitation is likely because of a lack of obvious number representation beyond base 36. 36 is 26 latin letters plus 10 digits. Not because of an underlying computing limitation.
in reply to Bill Ricker

@n1vux
The writing system has so many rules and symbols it might be more difficult than Egyptian Hieroglyphics which are more difficult than modern Chinese with it's pictograms

And also more difficult than ancient Greek, ancient Hebrew or any ancient form of any modern language that is based on a ancient dead language

Where the ancient language forms are usually more difficult than the modern forms for the same language

Is why not

in reply to shortstories

@shortstories @n1vux

cuneiform numbers aren’t bad at all. though it’s disturbing how they have place value but no zero

in reply to myrmepropagandist

@n1vux

Try writing a simple sentence with a subject object and verb in cuneiform and you will not find it easy even if the numbers are easy

in reply to myrmepropagandist

So excellent. I would have loved to learn this as a child!
Discovering that there are different ways of counting really blew my mind. The first time I encountered this was in playing Riven, I think? One of the puzzles requires a base 5 numbering system.
I'm trying to articulate why I find this so important - something about realising how something that you just accept without interrogating it like the decimal system, is actually something somebody made up, and that other systems are available.
in reply to Zumbador

@Zumbador
They taught us other bases in the 1970s when I was a kid. I wonder if it fell out of favor and then came back?

You could eat cereal on Saturday morning in 1973 while Schoolhouse Rock taught you base 12 between cartoons:

youtube.com/watch?v=pqGyUvZP0Z…

in reply to Phosphenes

@Phosphenes @Zumbador

It has never fallen out of favor with those of us in math who want young people to have a good foundation in discrete mathematics?

in reply to myrmepropagandist

@Phosphenes @Zumbador

Also, there is a big gap between being aware that "computers use a language of 1s and 0s" and really understanding how that is built in to the way these machines work. Everything must be encoded and decoded. So, I think this concept of encoding and representation is very important.

Not so that you can read binary, but rather so you have a clear sense of what it means to use layers of algorithms to take something like an image and make it into binary.

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in reply to myrmepropagandist

@Phosphenes @Zumbador

Computers give the impression of working with the analog, so much of the way we work with them obscures their fundamentally discrete nature.

But under the hood? that's still how it works.

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in reply to myrmepropagandist

@Phosphenes @Zumbador I remember talking to a guy at a party years back - he was very much an arts person - into opera, all that stuff.. He tells me that computer people are "all ones and zeroes".
Me being something of a literallist responded : "Oh... I don't really have to use binary very often". He looked at me rather strangely.
in reply to myrmepropagandist

Exactly. I qualify as an expert low level computer engineer, and I very distinctly remember the point in my education when the layering snapped into focus and I understood eeeeeverything.

Not everything literally (I've spent much of the intervening mumble years refining and adding understanding, and there's still much undigested) but I had the conceptual framework that everything else has slotted into, and I knew it.

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to myrmepropagandist

teach em to count in binary on their fingers!

... there's no real reason to do that, but it *is* fun, and means you can count to 255 on two hands. 1023 if you're more dextrous than I.

in reply to myrmepropagandist

Not set for british monney units ?
Farthings, shillings, pences, pounds, crowns, sovereigns, guineas and florins ?
Base twelve, eleven, two, four, oh darn...
in reply to myrmepropagandist

I taught our kid to count in binary on fingers.
Her math teachers universally would let her "flip the bird" to annoying classmates since she counted up

"One." cnnn8
"Two." cnn8n
"Three." cnn88
"FOUR!" cn8nn

and they just adored the mathiness of it, and allowing the mathy transgressive expression was encouraging playful maths.

(I never used the thumbs 👍 myself, as with Hexadecimal representation, 4bits per hand was optimal. But yes using both thumbs, could count to 1023.)

in reply to myrmepropagandist

I liked math and I was good at it. But if you had been my teacher I think I would have LOVED math. This sounds so good
in reply to myrmepropagandist

“why don’t the ancient ones have a zero?”

twas not invented then, my child

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in reply to myrmepropagandist

I just added in the cuneiform with the other number systems on a whim, not really thinking about the implications of it not having a zero (really, I forgot that they didn’t have zero it is a base 60 system, They *do* use place value, but with great ambiguity: it’s one of the things that makes translating old numeric tablets difficult.)

This caused many excellent questions!

in reply to myrmepropagandist

I feel like my whole life would have been different if I could have had a teacher like you in grade school!
in reply to myrmepropagandist

Have you tried balanced systems, e.g. where digits can have values of -5 to 5 (base 11)?
in reply to myrmepropagandist

@RogerBW
{-1, 0, +1} is an alternative, balanced ternary system to the usual {0, 1 ,2 }, which can be used for electronics but mostly isn't.
in reply to myrmepropagandist

cool! But don't forget that ancient mesoamerican civilizations like the Maya did have a numeral for zero which is often glossed over in eurocentric histories. I'm not sure exactly when this developed but I think it was around the dawn of the common era.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_num…

in reply to Eliot Lash

@Eliot_L

The cuneiform system is VERY old. We are talking 2900BC, so the Maya zero, is much later. But also probably independent of the zero from India.