Trump calls wind energy a ‘con job’: Here’s what the data actually says about his tirade on turbines | Euronews
euronews.com/green/2025/07/30/…
US President Donald Trump renewed his criticism of wind energy during a visit to Scotland, calling turbines ugly, costly, and harmful to wildlife. His recent comments on wind energy add to a litany of complaints from the well-known climate change denier over the years, but how accurate are his claims about turbines?
Are wind turbines the ‘most expensive form of energy’?
Do wind turbines ‘rust and rot’ in eight years?
Are ‘almost all’ wind turbines made in China?
Are wind turbines ‘killing birds’?
Did wind energy fail in Germany?
Jones
in reply to ireneerre • • •«It is still a threat that needs to be taken seriously, and scientists are working on ways to avoid birds colliding with the turbines. Simple solutions being explored involve painting turbine blades in contrasting colours or patterns to make them more visible. More complex options could see AI tech used to shut down turbines when birds approach», but couldn't they simply mount some kind of grids of white slim roundbars, like those that are mounted around the blades of ventilators?
Anyway, adess ghe pensi mì ("i'll take care of it now", in milanese italian) and i call my friend ("chiamo l'amico mio", in italiano) who always says that, in practice, renewables today are a delirium of exploitation of people for raw materials and also from an ecological point of view, @gerrymcgovern - let's hear what he has to say.
Edit: about wind turbines he says so: gerrymcgovern.com/wind-machine…
Wind machines are not renewable
Gerry McGovernireneerre
in reply to Jones • • •"Funny how in techland, Version 1 of the product is nearly always hugely environmentally destructive. Removing some of the toxic harm, making the product properly repairable and recycle, that’s something they may get to at Version 4, or probably never, because you can’t stop innovation and progress."
tutto verissimo, ma bisognerebbe calcolare l'impatto totale globale dell'energia eolica vs quella fossile.
penso che il problema dell'eolico sia più il capitalismo (capitalismo verde o tecnocapitalismo che sia), con la sua appropriazione e sfruttamento delle risorse energetiche a scopo di profitto, quando le rinnovabili potrebbero portarci a un'autonomia energetica di bassa scala a livello di comunità.
Jones
in reply to ireneerre • • •@gerrymcgovern
> tutto verissimo, ma bisognerebbe calcolare l'impatto totale globale dell'energia eolica vs quella fossile.
Il problema è anche che mentre cresce l'uso di "sostenibili", che per come sono prodotte e gestite oggi sostenibili non sono, cresce anche quello del fossile; più tutto il resto che è scritto nel post linkato.
> quando le rinnovabili potrebbero portarci a un'autonomia energetica di bassa scala a livello di comunità.
Ma anche per la produzione di pale eoliche più piccole, di piccolo idroelettrico e piccolo fotovoltaico e fototermico, sarebbe necessario procurarsi i materiali grezzi, nella stessa quantità, e sarebbe necessario tutto il resto della filiera industriale. Ogni tecnologia andrebbe progettata da subito per avere il minor impatto umano ed ecologico possibile, tenendo presente tutto, comprese le modalità di approvvigionamento dei materiali e la loro riciclabilit
... show more@gerrymcgovern
> tutto verissimo, ma bisognerebbe calcolare l'impatto totale globale dell'energia eolica vs quella fossile.
Il problema è anche che mentre cresce l'uso di "sostenibili", che per come sono prodotte e gestite oggi sostenibili non sono, cresce anche quello del fossile; più tutto il resto che è scritto nel post linkato.
> quando le rinnovabili potrebbero portarci a un'autonomia energetica di bassa scala a livello di comunità.
Ma anche per la produzione di pale eoliche più piccole, di piccolo idroelettrico e piccolo fotovoltaico e fototermico, sarebbe necessario procurarsi i materiali grezzi, nella stessa quantità, e sarebbe necessario tutto il resto della filiera industriale. Ogni tecnologia andrebbe progettata da subito per avere il minor impatto umano ed ecologico possibile, tenendo presente tutto, comprese le modalità di approvvigionamento dei materiali e la loro riciclabilità e smaltibilità; poi andrebbe testata prima su aree piccole e poi allargata lentamente sui territori limitrofi ed ecologicamente simili a quelli in cui non avesse creato problemi, e smantellata su quelli su cui ne avesse creati.
(1/2)
Gerry McGovern
in reply to Jones • • •@jones
All great points here. Some more thoughts:
These solar and wind machines can be highly complex and difficult for local people to repair and maintain.
They are incredibly materially complex and intense, requiring materials from a huge range of environments. They can only really be made and assembled by an 'advanced' globalized civilization.
Jones
in reply to Gerry McGovern • • •Maybe it's mostly because of their efficiency improvements, i wonder if the old wind and water mills made of wood could be coupled with simple dynamos and how much energy they would produce, surely much less than modern wind and water turbines, but since we should consider also the Jervons paradox (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_p…), this would be good.
economical theory that increased efficiency in use of a resource also tends to increase consumption of that resource
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Gerry McGovern reshared this.
Jimmy
in reply to Gerry McGovern • • •afrotech.com/william-kamkwamba…
At Age 14, William Kamkwamba Built A Windmill To Generate Electricity In Malawi — Now, He's Supporting Youth Inventions - AfroTech
AfroTechJimmy
in reply to Gerry McGovern • • •bewilderbeast23
in reply to Gerry McGovern • • •Gerry McGovern reshared this.
Gerry McGovern
in reply to bewilderbeast23 • • •@bewilderbeast23
Of course the harms are always hidden among the poor and wild nature. We can't have a fake Green Transition without Green Sacrifice Zones, can we.
@jones @ireneerre
Jones
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
But, in short: i very much doubt we can avoid our species extinction only through degrowth, i find it very improbable that we can practice and convince enough people to practice enough degrowth in time, so i think we should also act on the production side, even if this would inevitably mean forcing many people into degrowth instead of trying to convince them into it, even if this was done in the context of a municipalist international like this one, bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s…
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The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.orgJones
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
> The cheapest energy is the stuff you never use.
I read it as "the cheapest energy is the energy you don't use", which is surely true, but maybe it's not what you meant.
> GDP = hierarchy = energy intensity
I don't know how hierarchy originated, there are some hypotheses, such as those mentioned by Graeber and Wengrow in "The dawn of everything", and others, like this one, for example, liverpooluniversitypress.co.uk…, but nothing is certain; anyway, i think GDP is more like one of many consequences of hierarchy, although it surely also contributes to reinforce it; and i think "our" very much excessive energy consumption and its current destructive modes of "production" (it's how i read your "energy intensity") are very much connected to hierarchy, like many other negative things, but i don't think "hierarchy = excessive energy production and bad modes of its 'production'", i think the first can exist also without the latter.
> Jevons paradox isn’t. Intensity x scale explains it.
I agree.
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GhostOnTheHalfShell
Unknown parent • • •The point being that those supply chains are already suffering repeated damage with extreme weather events. Ask the farmers who have lost everything to fire or flood or businesses that I’ve lost everything to fire or flood or the roads, bridges and railroads being damaged by extreme weather. It’s death by 1000 cuts.
Jones
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •I know, and the situation will get more and more tragic if we don't find a way to stop GHG emissions, and it would continue to get more and more tragic for a while even if we magically stopped them tomorrow, so i don't get why advocating for an international to take the means of production to turn off the polluting ones and socialise the rest, and the lands to socialise them and cultivate them without polluting - something like this: bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s… - seems so strange to you.
The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.orgJones
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
> Dawn of Time has been critiqued by other anthropologist, who point out that those authors somehow managed to completely ignore an entire body of anthropological study that is sorted out the psychological underpinnings and the conditions which foster either egalitarianism or hierarchy.
(It's "Dawn of everything").
I'd like to read them, but i don't know if i'd manage (i have begun reading this, liverpooluniversitypress.co.uk…, and it seems to me there are perhaps intentional misinterpretations of what Graber and Wengrow wrote). Anyway, "sorted out" is unacceptable in "hard sciences" and i guess it should be even more that way in such much more nuanced fields as anthropology and psychology.
> The relationship between hierarchy and energy use in particular in the modern economy has been discussed in papers written by Blair Fix an economist.
Does he say that the hypothesis that hierarchy can exist even without excessive energy production and bad modes of its production?
(1/2)
Jones
in reply to Jones • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
> The critics of the dawn of Time by the way also point out other important information like the environmental conditions that allowed permanent settlements and agriculture to become the dominant means of food production.
I think this is a fair criticism.
> Baring total ecological collapse killing off all vertebrate life the environmental conditions for a global or national supply chain are rapidly fading off in a warming climate.
Yes, but overall, what is your point?
(2/2)
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Jones • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
You voiced an opinion that people won’t change their ways that degrowth would have to be forced, yet the national global supply chains we rely on aren’t viable anymore in the climate. We now existing it will take time for them to break down, but they’re not viable.
Almost no one understand the basic equation: figure out how to live comfortably off the land you occupy and you’ve “solved” de growth
Jones
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
> You voiced an opinion that people won’t change their ways that degrowth would have to be forced, yet the national global supply chains we rely on aren’t viable anymore in the climate.
In italy they still work, more at the north, less at the south, as i guess they still work in much of europe and america, maybe in china and russia too, more or less, and these "developed" countries are by far the greatest GHG emitters (with china first by far), and GHG emissions are still increasing; my concern is that in these countries we'll be forced by poorness to do degrowth when the damage will be too big already, when our species extinction will be already unavoidable (more and more people say it is yet, probably or certainly: see for example
... show more@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
> You voiced an opinion that people won’t change their ways that degrowth would have to be forced, yet the national global supply chains we rely on aren’t viable anymore in the climate.
In italy they still work, more at the north, less at the south, as i guess they still work in much of europe and america, maybe in china and russia too, more or less, and these "developed" countries are by far the greatest GHG emitters (with china first by far), and GHG emissions are still increasing; my concern is that in these countries we'll be forced by poorness to do degrowth when the damage will be too big already, when our species extinction will be already unavoidable (more and more people say it is yet, probably or certainly: see for example ipolitics.ca/2025/07/02/its-to… and autonomies.org/2025/08/franco-…), more so since greenhouse effect is just one of nine planetary boundaries we are far out of; this is one of the reasons why i advocate taking the means of production to turn off the polluting ones, and the lands to cultivate them without polluting, and so on; something like this: bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s…
Franco “Bifo” Berardi: “Humanity will not survive this century”
AutonomiesGhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Jones • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
Dawn of Time has been critiqued by other anthropologist, who point out that those authors somehow managed to completely ignore an entire body of anthropological study that is sorted out the psychological underpinnings and the conditions which foster either egalitarianism or hierarchy.
The relationship between hierarchy and energy use in particular in the modern economy has been discussed in papers written by Blair Fix an economist.
..
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
The critics of the dawn of everything by the way also point out other important information like the environmental conditions that allowed permanent settlements and agriculture to become the dominant means of food production.
Baring total ecological collapse killing off all vertebrate life the environmental conditions for a global or national supply chain are rapidly fading off in a warming climate.
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Jones • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
Generally, you fit into the category of catastrophist. And the chief difference between you and me is I look at communities first and say they can aggressively decouple themselves from the global supply chain that will it has been disrupted in the number of times now by ecological as well as political calamities.
You have the same basics as I do about community, i.e. local communities organized in an egalitarian fashion..
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
But what you’re talking about is the consequence rather than the material conditions required to foster egalitarianism. This is the chief complaint about the dawn of everything.
What you describe are the consequence effects of the conditions that shape egalitarian societies with poor recognition of what’s necessary.
And the idea that today it’ll be easier to foster egalitarian communities than “ancient times”, strike the idea from your brain. It’s bad…
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •Statements like we have to take the means of blah blah blah, it’s coming about the problem in the wrong way, more correctly in a way that will foster dominance hierarchies that you are so keen to eradicate. This has been a repeated problem in all revolutions to cast off the dominion of others. They more often simply replace the management with different staff.
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
Dotted all over the world are egalitarian immediate return foraging communities. They already know how to be egalitarian and especially they know how to foster it and defend it. Again, the chief complaint is their knowledge has been studied. Yet somehow anarchist seem to be unaware of it.
And dotted all over the world, are intentional communities that have sorted out the same basics. ..
Dave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @gerrymcgovern
My recent observations on Medium and Mastodon suggest that more people are waiting for the next revolution to bring in a better system.
The Cuban Revolution is a good example of the more likely outcome. Batista was bad. Castro was not as bad. Is this outcome acceptable?
Building "anarchistic communities from the ground up" is the solution. The TDG is a mechanism for this social/political change.
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Dave Volek • • •I don’t see how you can build it any other way. How does it work otherwise?
Dave Volek
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @gerrymcgovern
Methinks similarly.
A top down revolution will only find a new top down hierarchy (take Cuba as the example).
The TDG starts as small independent units. When their systems of internal governance are working well, these TDGs merge with adjacent TDGs. As the TDG grows in this way, its local culture is retained.
Cy
Unknown parent • • •It's difficult in part because they're all actively or passively under attack by the hierarchist societies around them. Gathering supplies makes you a thief. Building shelter makes you a trespasser. And when there are local system failures, from whatever godforsaken corner of the planet the bureaucrats granted you, all the communities around you will let you starve because you're the lowest rank on the official hierarchy chart.
And... the planet is really hurting. Most people don't have an easy and comfortable life. The vast majority of the world population have a very difficult life, but they don't have guns.
If we stop exploiting people, it's not going to... seem as easy as it did when we could foist our suffering off on some foreign slaves off in a death camp in the colonies. It will be easier overall, since we don't have an elite caste sucking all our resources away, but people are going to have to deal with some shit. It's not that an anarchist system will cause that shit to happen, but that it won't hide that shit and delay its onset until it's too late an
... show moreIt's difficult in part because they're all actively or passively under attack by the hierarchist societies around them. Gathering supplies makes you a thief. Building shelter makes you a trespasser. And when there are local system failures, from whatever godforsaken corner of the planet the bureaucrats granted you, all the communities around you will let you starve because you're the lowest rank on the official hierarchy chart.
And... the planet is really hurting. Most people don't have an easy and comfortable life. The vast majority of the world population have a very difficult life, but they don't have guns.
If we stop exploiting people, it's not going to... seem as easy as it did when we could foist our suffering off on some foreign slaves off in a death camp in the colonies. It will be easier overall, since we don't have an elite caste sucking all our resources away, but people are going to have to deal with some shit. It's not that an anarchist system will cause that shit to happen, but that it won't hide that shit and delay its onset until it's too late and we're all dead.
CC: @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
GhostOnTheHalfShell
Unknown parent • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
The only satisfactory solution is to decouple each and every community bit by bit from the modern economy. That is a practical as well as necessary process. Because only by learning how to live well in your region, which requires specific knowledge of the region, can you actually be an egalitarian society.
All talk of this marching regimented revolution from the top down is it itself a dominance hierarchy.
Lea_F'all
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •Lea_F'all
in reply to Cy • • •Jones
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •good luck with degrowth.
Jones
in reply to Jones • • •if you actually read bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s… you find out that this international would soon set up municipal assemblies which would be open to all, where current rules would be redefined and new rules and decisions would be taken with consensus-driven methods; it would be something similar to what the kurds tried to do with democratic confederalism, and to what makhno tried to do in ukraine.
The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.orgGhostOnTheHalfShell
Unknown parent • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
3) weather extremes themselves make that supply chain impractical simply from destruction of said physical resources.
The most practical way, and I fact I’m convinced at this point really it’s the only way to deal with the parasitic corporate world anyway is to reassert local control and kick corporations out of our communities, and rebuild around, sustaining and supporting and investing in local business.
Jones
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
... show morei understand, but the big concern i expressed here, todon.nl/@jones/11504476537499…, stays all the same true.
(though, maybe i should rewrite or simply delete the part in bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s… that says "and soon build lots of hydroelectric, wind, photovoltaic and photothermal infrastructures, and produce the necessary batteries without polluting and exploiting people", becuase i don't know whether it's technologically feasible today to build hydroelectric, wind, photovoltaic, photothermal and batteries without exploiting people and destroying ecosystems)
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
i understand, but the big concern i expressed here, todon.nl/@jones/11504476537499…, stays all the same true.
(though, maybe i should rewrite or simply delete the part in bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s… that says "and soon build lots of hydroelectric, wind, photovoltaic and photothermal infrastructures, and produce the necessary batteries without polluting and exploiting people", becuase i don't know whether it's technologically feasible today to build hydroelectric, wind, photovoltaic, photothermal and batteries without exploiting people and destroying ecosystems)
Jones
2025-08-17 15:16:47
Dave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@cy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @gerrymcgovern
Rojava is one of several non-conventional systems of governance, operating at the local level: Cecosesola (Venuezuela), Barangay (Philippines), Zapatista (Mexico), and the "provincial" governments of Northwest Territory and Iqaluit (Canada). All these systems are less based on partisanship. They are showing that it is possible to govern without political parties.
We just need to take this idea to a higher level.
ireneerre
Unknown parent • • •@davevolek @cy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @gerrymcgovern
You've been theorizing about revolutionary forms of social organization for a while now but I'm surprised no one is mentioning Rojava, a real and contemporary alternative to capitalism that is an internationally applicable model
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr…
de facto autonomous region in Syria
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Dave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@cy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @gerrymcgovern
If the term "constitution" has a negative feeling, then maybe use another term.
One useful purpose of a constitition is to specify how the decision-makers are elected and the boundary they have to work within.
Without these "guidelines," then differences of opinion are likely to break apart any community building project.
Dave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@cy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @gerrymcgovern
I did some constitutional writing in my political days. For many people, including political junkies, this task is not fun.
While not fun, rules need to be written for the political elite will not write the rules for a new democracy.
Anyways, I believe the early TDG builders will bond with this task. They will see a bigger part of the vision of what people can do when they truly work together.
2/2
Cy
in reply to Dave Volek • • •Constitutions are kind of a bad idea, since they have to be true for all time from that point and immune to any future exploitation. (Thus why writing them isn't fun.) I'd write community guidelines maybe, or suggestions for an arbitration process. Having some document stating what is absolutely always our thing by law... not so much.
CC: @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @jones@todon.nl @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green @ireneerre@mastodon.bida.im
Cy
in reply to Dave Volek • • •How do you build small independent units from the ground up though?
CC: @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @jones@todon.nl @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green @ireneerre@mastodon.bida.im
Dave Volek
in reply to Cy • • •@cy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @gerrymcgovern
Local TDGs will start as independent units. When their self governance is working well, they will merge with adjacent TDGs. In this way, the TDG grows from the bottom up.
Chapter 6 describes the process more fully.
Here is the TOC of the TDG:
tiereddemocraticgovernance.org…
3/3
Cy
in reply to Dave Volek • • •Oh, thanks! I'll take a look.
Huh, it talks about "consultative" stuff, which brings to question how do you determine who's an expert at something, and who's being portrayed as one to screw with you. Can you find a good dentist? Because I sure can't. Just skimming that part, more looking for how to mobilize a neighborhood.
Unfortunately, that essay makes unbearable use of the passive voice, to cover up the gaping holes in their strategy. Like:
How?
Since when? How? Why only one representative?
... show moreWho's doing this? How did they get to be the vote counters?
Oh, thanks! I'll take a look.
Huh, it talks about "consultative" stuff, which brings to question how do you determine who's an expert at something, and who's being portrayed as one to screw with you. Can you find a good dentist? Because I sure can't. Just skimming that part, more looking for how to mobilize a neighborhood.
Unfortunately, that essay makes unbearable use of the passive voice, to cover up the gaping holes in their strategy. Like:
How?
Since when? How? Why only one representative?
Who's doing this? How did they get to be the vote counters?
At least it gives some way to communicate with neighbors, but leaves unsaid how higher tier representatives would talk with each other in this hierarchy. When someone uses force to take over the top tier, what does everyone else do, if that tier has authority over all?
It's got some neat ideas, but... not exactly a step-by-step guide to bringing your community back from the dead.
1) I live in a community where practically no one talks to each other, or goes outside.
2) ?????
3) I live in a community where we support each other and keep up with each other's lives.
CC: @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @jones@todon.nl @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green @ireneerre@mastodon.bida.im
Jones
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
I understand and totally agree, and i'm gonna delete that part about soon building "lots of hydroelectric, wind, photovoltaic and photothermal infrastructures, and produce the necessary batteries without polluting and exploiting people" after taking the means of production and the lands.
The concern i expressed here, bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s…, though, stays all the same true, and it's not about me not wanting to "degrow my life" (which is already a lot "degrown" in comparison with most of the people of my city), but yes, it is about getting into misery and famine and thirst and getting there "when our species extinction will be already unavoidable", as you can read there.
The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.orgGhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Jones • • •I would think carefully about the supply chains needed to make dams and solar, and what not. Weather extremes damage the global supply chains/make them economically insolvent.
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •@jones @gerrymcgovern
When you or I embrace the idea of local first, we are behaving like the rest of life on the planet, which figures out how to sustain itself from what’s around it. The degree that you and I can sustain ourselves from our locality without external inputs, is our degree of living within planetary boundaries.
Most human ingenuity is dedicated to fitting into the global supply chain rather than cleverly shaping and leveraging the local environment.
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •Local economic autonomy is often characterized as primitive, going back to the past or something something, but I would contend that the amount of ingenuity to draw on the local environment and shape it to be productive enough to sustain us requires as much and more ingenuity because we have to understand the place we live in
Jones
Unknown parent • • •The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.orgJones
Unknown parent • • •My point is that, considering only one of the eight planet boundaries we are far out of, i.e. the GHG emissions that are still increasing now, our "forced-by-nature-degrowth" will most probably happen when it will be too late for our species and so many others to not extinguish or be heavily decimated. And, at the same time, i see "degrowth-by-our-will" as very, very improbable: i repeat: i see it very, very improbable that the people in the US, in Europe, in China, in Russia, in all these "developed" countries, and particularly those who are the greatest emitters, the upper classes, will "degrow" in numbers high enough and in times short enough to get our species out of the extinction process. That's one of the reasons why i advocate for something like this: bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s…
The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.orgGhostOnTheHalfShell
Unknown parent • • •@d10c4n3 @jones @gerrymcgovern
Changing the way we produce energy misunderstands the nature of the system. It’s the system and its structure that demands energy.
Corporations exist through energy intensity. Supply chains exist by intensive energy use. It is this observation that motivates me to say restoring local economic autonomy is the path or essential part of it.
The cheapest energy is the stuff we never use.
Gerry McGovern
Unknown parent • • •@d10c4n3
Exactly. It's not an energy production problem. It is an energy consumption problem.
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @jones @ireneerre
Jones
in reply to Gerry McGovern • • •@gerrymcgovern @d10c4n3 @GhostOnTheHalfShell
I think it's an energy consumption problem that we cannot solve acting only on consumption, todon.nl/@jones/11505036901889…
@gerrymcgovern @d10c4n3 @GhostOnTheHalfShell
I think it's an energy consumption problem that we cannot solve acting only on consumption, todon.nl/@jones/11505036901889…
Jones
2025-08-18 15:01:52
Gerry McGovern reshared this.
Cy
in reply to Dave Volek • • •The whole notion of electing decision makers just doesn't rest well with me. We need solidarity, not authority. The only purpose of my guidelines would be to warn people of the things that can break up communities (like someone saying "who's in charge though?"), and we'd just informally pressure each other not to violate them because we know that's dangerous and destructive, not because they're written down.
CC: @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @jones@todon.nl @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green @ireneerre@mastodon.bida.im
Gerry McGovern
Unknown parent • • •@jones
I have that book on my bookshelf ready to read next.
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @cy @davevolek @ireneerre
Jones
Unknown parent • • •i'm not sure of this, i seem to remember that in "The dawn of everything", according to Graeber and Wengrow, some egalitarian societies lasted longer than a thousand years, in big cities - for those times - where agricolture was already practiced, and what seems true of the past doesn't necessarily hold true for the future, but i'm too tired to continue this conversation now, maybe i'll reply with other arguments tomorrow :)
GhostOnTheHalfShell
Unknown parent • • •The reality is that in any population, especially over time there will be individuals who get ideas in their heads. And it is the good sense and jealously guarded decision-making power of the men that puts a cap on the intentions of a few.
Jones
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell @cy @davevolek @gerrymcgovern
... show moreyes, but i repeat: to delegate a bit to a leader circumstancially is something which happened also among anarchists, e.g. in 1936 in spain, and as you wrote, "Hunter gatherers are quite happy to delegate to a leader circumstantially", and i think this point, todon.nl/@jones/11505036901889…, stays very true, so to me it would be fine if there were such leaders during the process of taking the lands to cultivate them with permaculture and agroforestry, and the means of production to turn off all the polluting ones; afte
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @cy @davevolek @gerrymcgovern
yes, but i repeat: to delegate a bit to a leader circumstancially is something which happened also among anarchists, e.g. in 1936 in spain, and as you wrote, "Hunter gatherers are quite happy to delegate to a leader circumstantially", and i think this point, todon.nl/@jones/11505036901889…, stays very true, so to me it would be fine if there were such leaders during the process of taking the lands to cultivate them with permaculture and agroforestry, and the means of production to turn off all the polluting ones; after that, i see no need for any kind of leaders.
Jones
2025-08-18 15:01:52
Cy
in reply to Jones • • •Yeah like, as an anarchist I'd say appointing a leader is "bad" but might be necessary to get stuff done. It's just dangerous, because once you give someone power, they can use it to take power from others. Sneaky leaders can make their appointees beholden to them, or agents of oppression.
What is important is making sure non-leaders have power. Then if they want a leader, fine, but once the leader pulls shenanigans they're gone. It's taking power away from the people, leaving us in debt, or subject to oppressive property laws, uneducated or misinformed, or literally enslaved/in jail, that destroys anarchy and installs fascist hierarchies.
CC: @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @davevolek@mastodon.social @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green @ireneerre@mastodon.bida.im
Jones
in reply to Cy • • •i know of no anarchist "leaders" who, after their usefuleness as "leaders" ended, tried to keep power concentrated in their hands (but i want to repeat that me, i could never be such a leader)
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Cy • • •Hunter gatherers are quite happy to delegate to a leader circumstantially. This happens during a hunt where there’s somebody use proficient organizing people.. The principal difference is just as soon as that hunt is over that individual no longer has any authority and in fact they can lose it if they fuck up during the hunt. Similar situations can exist in worker co-ops. Jealously guarding ultimate decision-making power is required.
Jones
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •I was thinking that to delegate a bit to a leader circumstancially is something which happened also among anarchists, e.g. in 1936 in spain, but i don't think it's something that would be useful in worker co-ops. It would be useful to take the lands to cultivate them without polluting, and the means of production to turn off all the polluting ones.
(me, i could never be such a leader).
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Jones • • •I’ve seen a number of lectures given on worker coops (Ted has one), and there are co-ops that hire management, which is fine. If management clearly understands, they are an employee of the board of directors, which just happens to be all the employees.
GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to GhostOnTheHalfShell • • •@jones @cy @davevolek @gerrymcgovern
I think the most interesting statement made about egalitarian societies is a quote I recently found in the book “ hierarchies in the forest” Boehm
The chief characteristic of egalitarian societies is power flows upwards. Which is a fairly interesting concept.
Generally, I would equate anarchism with egalitarianism.. some people might not agree with it but it’s something I’m happy with
Gerry McGovern
Unknown parent • • •@GhostOnTheHalfShell
That's on my reading list now. Thanks!
@jones @cy @davevolek @ireneerre
Lea_F'all
in reply to Cy • • •Jones
Unknown parent • • •🙂
I've just finished a heavy editing of bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s… 🙂
The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.org2Doe
in reply to Jones • • •GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Jones • • •G’nite
Nol Malone ☭
Unknown parent • • •Nol Malone ☭
Unknown parent • • •Communist Sortition
www.communistsortition.orgGhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to Nol Malone ☭ • • •@anolandria @jones @gerrymcgovern
I think the outline look pretty good, just putting my two cents in.
What is notable as many of the features you’ve included or reminiscent of what I understand to be traditional culture is prevalent in Central America.
If you haven’t already, it would be very useful to draw on their experience. I think the most important thing will be to reflect on how politics are evolving in your own communities too…
Cy
Unknown parent • • •The people in charge beforehand will attack the ones genuinely trying to help though, with the thought of protecting the property of the wealthy. It's a pretty common phenomenon.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_pa…
CC: @Leaves_fall@mastodon.social @jones@todon.nl @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Behavior during disaster events
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Dave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@cy @Leaves_fall @jones @GhostOnTheHalfShell @gerrymcgovern
Emergency situations are never easy to govern well. Our best strategy should be to put our best people in charge before the emergency happens.
I have Medium article on this topic in the draft stage.
Cy
in reply to Lea_F'all • • •A lot of military propaganda claims that soldiers will make mistakes in an emergency if not harshly trained to be obedient to their leader. It's still OK to take the lead in an emergency I mean, just... be careful about it.
CC: @jones@todon.nl @GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai @davevolek@mastodon.social @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Levka
Unknown parent • • •kolektiva.social/@LevZadov/110…
Levka (@LevZadov@kolektiva.social)
kolektiva.social2Doe
in reply to 2Doe • • •2Doe
in reply to 2Doe • • •Jones
in reply to 2Doe • • •i agree, not only for the animals but for us as well, for social justice among us and to prevent our extinction or decimation, but i think we're far too few now, and so we should try to convince more people, maybe by writing something better than this thing i've written, bu.noblogs.org/the-necessary-s…
The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.org2Doe
Unknown parent • • •Dave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@Leilani_ @jones @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cy @gerrymcgovern
Thank you. I think the TDG website has reached 1m words.
I got the idea back in 1992. I started working on it in 1997. Off and on for the next 20 years. My efforts have been fairly consistent since 2017.
2Doe
Unknown parent • • •Dave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@Leilani_ @jones @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cy @gerrymcgovern
I've been sprinkling a few TDG things in this thread. This article would be my manifesto:
tiereddemocraticgovernance.org…
In Chapter 6 of my book, I describe a general process to move from HERE to THERE. With emphasis on "general". Local TDGs will have own local challenges to resolve.
2Doe
Unknown parent • • •2Doe
Unknown parent • • •The necessary socialist International – bu
bu.noblogs.orgDave Volek
Unknown parent • • •@Leilani_ @jones @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cy @gerrymcgovern
I'm not sure whose manifesto you are talking about.
But I do have an alternative democracy we could be building.
This democracy needs to be built outside the current system, otherwise it will compromise itself.
No violence needed. Just be the good example--and put those 10 hours a month into this project.
2Doe
in reply to Jones • • •