Why is Linux so frustrating for some people?


Don't get me wrong. I love Linux and FOSS.
I have been using and installing distros on my own since I was 12.
Now that I'm working in tech-related positions, after the Reddit migration happened, etc. I recovered my interest in all the Linux environment.
I use Ubuntu as my main operating system in my Desktop, but I always end up feeling very limited. There's always software I can't use properly (and not just Windows stuff), some stuff badly configured with weird error messages... last time I was not able to even use the apt command. Sometimes I lack time and energy for troubleshooting and sometimes I just fail at it.

I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again. Maybe Linux is not good for beginners working full time? Maybe we should do something like that Cisco course that teaches you the basic commands?

in reply to leninmummy

I have used Linux for around 10 years. My daily driver has changed a couple times but I always go back to Mint. I think its better than Ubuntu personally. Its what I always recommend and I've been a sys admin for 5 years and dealt with production environments across all the core distros.

All that said it really depends on what programs you are using. Some have alternatives sure but sometimes that's not enough. Sometimes you will have a program that just pins you to Windows until you don't need it anymore.

You should list out what things you use that you need. Take some recommendations on their alternatives or how to set them up in Linux and see if it sounds like it'd work for you.

in reply to leninmummy

I have installed Linux for purpose based computers in my IT and production line of work. And I’m curious about this topic. It’s sort of a dilemma. I work mainly in environments that require full fledged reliable tracking sessions in Adobe and Avid outboard hardware, etc. any time I tried to use Linux as a daily driver I regretted it.
… But I want to use it. I agree with the values, and I prefer the customization and optimal use of my hardware… am I missing something as a Linux user about which distro or the way in which I’m using it.

are some of these considerations also part of what spurred your post OP?

in reply to Ketchup

I swapped to Linux back before COVID after I realized that the few Windows specific tasks I still ran were running in VMs anyway. Since then, I've been fully Linux and I've rarely needed Windows for anything but installing custom Android ROMS and reading Adobe DRMed files.

Microsoft actually made the process easier by making Office 365 useful. If I need MS Office specifically I can just run it well enough from a browser.

in reply to Melpomene

You’re making a very important point about virtualization. I have probably not spent enough time using it in the Linux environments that I built to feel like it was reliable. I guess my fear would be related to external thunderbolt audio equipment. But I havnt even taken an honest look to see who may have already paved the way with similar equipment.

In any case thanks for the good input!

in reply to leninmummy

in reply to kitsastro

Ultimately I agree. Open source software is the only software that's sustainable and that benefits humanity in general more than it benefits some company somewhere. I choose open source software basically whenever I can. I hope that some day in the future that'll extend into operating systems for personal computing and game servers, but unfortunately that's not the case at the moment for my use cases.
in reply to leninmummy

It's the same way Mastodon and the Fediverse is so damn frustrating to many people. They don't want to have to think and just want shit to work.

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in reply to Voytrekk

I’ve been a windows user forever and ever (well, DOS before that…) but iOS feels intuitive as fuck to me. I was an immediate Android adopter (HTC Dream/G1, then the successor G2 immediately when it was released) and when my partner got an iPhone, I played around with it for like five minutes before I was like “holy shit this is smooth.” I’ll never go back to Android (well, I couldn’t now anyway since I don’t touch Google services or products)

Next weekend I set up my first linux box since 2008, though, and I’m nervous. But excited.

in reply to PhillyCodeHound

This. I get a wild hair every couple years to daily drive Linux and there's always something small but crucial that breaks within a day or so and there's no way for me, a relative novice, to fix it.

Example: I picked up a old ThinkPad on ebay last year. I put Ubuntu on it and after a day or two the wifi just stops working. No error messages. Nothing. I tried digging into the settings via ui with no luck. Googling didn't help because I couldn't tell what was helpful, unhelpful, or would have been helpful but is five years out of date.

After a few days of trying to make it work, I just threw on windows and haven't had any issues since.

in reply to ashok36

I've always had the opposite experience, especially with hardware like older thinkpads. Trying to use windows, everything runs so slowly, I have to try to find the right wifi and sound drivers from the manufacturers website, and make sure you get the right driver version that works with Windows 10. Then windows update runs and overwrites your drivers with Microsoft drivers that don't work.

Installing Ubuntu, everything works straight out of the box, don't need to go hunting all over the internet for installer packages.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to HughJanus

Fair, but the person above you was talking about ThinkPads... Laptops with network adapters that have no Linux drivers are very rare. In the large majority of cases network adapters have drivers in the kernel, and almost all of the rest have drivers that need to be installed after. I used to work at a PC shop where I would very often use a Linux live CD to test hardware if Windows was having issues that seemed to be driver related. 90% of the hardware we worked on were laptops, so I booted Linux on a lot of them. There was never a laptop that didn't work out of the box on Linux. They certainly exist, but they are not as common as you think they are.
in reply to PhillyCodeHound

This is oft repeated but is short sighted, it is NOT that people do not want to think, it is that they don’t have the time and energy to constantly fight their devices to perform simple tasks.

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in reply to Cypher

Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

dmrzl

When Windows 3.1 came out I had a hard time understanding any of it and never left my cozy DOS CLI with its Norton Commander.

Granted I was still a child, but one might think that mouse-first and colorfulness would have driven my curiosity. Instead I switched when Windows 95 arrived.

in reply to leninmummy

I stopped trying to learn linux. Windows isnt perfect but in general it just works. Want a program? download and install the exe. drivers are PnP.

I do tech support for a living. At the end of the day i just want my stuff to work. I dont want to do more work. Same reason i replaced my Ubiquiti APs with Eeros and stick with a simple hardwire topography where possible.

in reply to BuffLettuce

It's funny you say that. I find the Linux way of getting software way more intuitive. Just hop in the terminal and use the package manager. When I used Windows, I always felt like I was doing something shady when I was getting a .exe. With drivers, I've only had an issue once; everything else was pre-compiled into the kernel. On Windows, I had driver issues a lot. For those reasons (and others), I switched full time to Linux almost a decade ago.

Totally anecdotal, of course, but I just thought it was funny how our experiences were complete opposites and sent us in complete opposite directions for the same reason.

in reply to voidMainVoid

Oh for sure! Sometimes it's not even when something breaks but just a normal thing that's different. I used to be a Linux evangelist, and when I convinced my to mom to simply try Linux, she was upset when she had to enter her password to do something (I think it was an update or something) rather than it just doing it. She was mad that it prompted for a password rather than "just updating."

Explaining that giving permission is much safer than just running everything as Admin did nothing. She hasn't used Linux since.

in reply to leninmummy

Linux user here, also once upon a time a Windows admin. I think the most difficult thing for most users is not that Linux is difficult, but that it is different.

Take Pop_OS for example. For the average "I check email and surf the web" user, it works wonderfully. But most people grew on Windows or Mac so its just not what they're used to. Linux is kind of the stick shift to Windows and Mac's automatic transmission... its not hard to learn, but most folk don't choose to make the effort because they don't need to.

in reply to leninmummy

College for computers where I got exposed to Linux, used to all about windows but it changed so much over the years, I just can't do windows anymore.

I've been running Mint for years, I had a box on 17 until it went end of life. My plex media server or samba server that thing giving me issues, I believe some version of Lubuntu or something that went end of life, I managed to upgrade the OS in place without wiping it but the operating system has done change ways it handles static IP addresses, the box has 3 nic ports and I haven't put much effort into figuring it out.

in reply to leninmummy

in reply to Tekchip

You see, but for a windows power user, Microsoft’s obstacles are minor. I can’t transition because I have my most used Universal Windows Tweaker or WinAero tweaker registry edits written down for every clean install. Microsoft Activation Scripts 1.8 allows me to use anything from Windows for Education to Pro for Workstations. I don’t find it inflexible, I bend it to my will without difficulty because it’s what was the standard and I learned inside and out. I haven’t transitioned to Linux because I can’t maintain the same ability without relearning a new OS.
in reply to leninmummy

in reply to Tower

I think I wanted a more up-to-date PHP version at the time


This is one of the things I like about Rust: its rustup program can install the latest version of Rust in my home folder. I don't need my distro to carry the latest version.

Unlike some similar things for other languages (like nvm for Node.js), rustup doesn't require me to use a specific shell, doesn't require me to use any special prefix for commands invoking Rust toolchain programs (I can just run cargo build and cargo run like normal), and doesn't touch any environment variable (except adding its installation folder to PATH when rustup is first installed).

Instead, it simply installs a wrapper binary for each of the programs in Rust's toolchain. The wrapper binary checks if there is a Rust version override for the project I'm working on, then finds and executes the appropriate version of whichever program I'm trying to run. Nice and clean, with a bare minimum of nonsense.

in reply to leninmummy

For most people computers are just the same as cars. People want a car that will drive them from place to place, are easy to refuel, easy to operate, and can be taken to an expert for anything difficult or that requires specialized knowledge. Same for computers. Most people want a computer to navigate the web, install the apps they are used to and that their friends use, is easy to operate, and can be taken to an expert for any involved work.

Even the friendliest of Linux distro don't check all those boxes. You cant get ready support from a repair shop, many of the apps are different or function differently, and it doesn't receive all the same love and attention from major third party developers as Windows does.

Most people could learn to use Linux; it's not that hard. Most people could learn to change their own oil. But for most people, it's not worth it. For most people it's not the journey, it's the destination and cars and computers are just tools to get there.

in reply to voidMainVoid

That's not really a fair analogy, Windows isn't that locked down. It's more like the hood is open and for general maintenance you're fine, but all the parts are proprietary so if something breaks, you can only go to one manufacturer who controls the entire supply chain for that part. However, the parts are generally okay quality so for most people who just drive A to B, they're unlikely to encounter too many issues.

Linux is a kit car. You can pretty much build it yourself or have one preassembled but either way you can rip any part of it out and replace any component with anything you like, entirely within your control. Most people wouldn't have the competency to build one themselves because most people don't really know how cars work but for those that do, it's the dream.

I genuinely don't believe that one approach is better than another, but I do believe that the majority of folks out there want something that "just works" and Linux is usually not that option. Not on the desktop.

in reply to voidMainVoid

You are pretty lucky if you haven't experienced any issues. For most people thogh spots are gonna be:

  • Gaming. While a lot of games work perfectly a lot also don't work (mainly if they have a ~~kernel level anticheat~~ rootkit)
  • Nvidia. Do i have to say any more?
  • Wifi. Often wifi cards just don't work or work very poorly.
  • Laptop specific features. Stuff like a MUX switch, ambient light sensors and fingerprint scanners very often have no drivers for linux.
in reply to moon_matter

Dell had a Linux line some years ago where everything worked out of the box, never got the popularity needed to keep it alive.

System76 has Pop!_OS so that they can provide great out of the box experience with their computers, but they are not as big as other vendors.

A good way to really get a product like that to mass market is to make it available in general stores (Walmart, Best Buy, Etc.), the problem is that most of those customers will not understand why their system is so different and they cannot install that MS Office 2003 they have always used, or that Norton Antivirus that their cousin's son recommended to them 10 years ago that was working fine on their old computer.

And then you have the younger generations that use every other device but a computer. They'd rather do all their school and college work on their phones and tablets rather than open a laptop, if they even know how to use a computer (you'd be surprised how many don't even know how to use a computer).

in reply to techviator

I hate myself for saying this, but the only way forward is to treat PCs like a highly moddable console. They need to come with some "exclusive" software that only makes its way to other platforms at a later date. They also need to be built for a specific purpose (e.g. media centre, gaming) with the expectation that most people won't want to leave the comfort zone.
in reply to voidMainVoid

It's been more than a couple years since Ive tried using Linux (back when I used it as my primary os).

My experience have been mostly with ubuntu-based OSes like Mint. First laptop I installed Linux on, the audio didn't just work. It didn't work at all for a while, despite trying many fixes. Otherwise it actually did work decently well. On my next laptop, it would just one day no longer boot or login for some reason or another and I'd just have to do a clean install because I didn't know how to fix it. That happened maybe every other month? On both laptops, the two-finger scroll behavior had settings to change how it behaved in the default installed software, but on Linux it was always finicky getting it to work the way I wanted.

Also installing things is a lot more annoying for stuff that require command line vs just clicking it and telling it to install.

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in reply to krellor

Honestly, I wouldn't mind being more knowledgeable about cars. I'm just afraid to touch anything, because I figure I'll break it and incur a massive bill to replace whatever part I broke. PC operating systems carry no such risk; you can give up on whatever you're trying and reinstall your old OS at any time without paying anyone anything.

Even PC hardware isn't that risky to tinker with. It's an order of magnitude cheaper than a car; lots of people have old, obsolete, but perfectly functional PCs lying around that they'd like taken off their hands; most components are within easy reach; and the component that isn't within easy reach (the power supply unit) is pretty tough to break.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to krellor

To expand on this metaphor:

Windows and Macs are like automatic cars, for all the people who just use it to get to a destination, it's the obvious and easiest option.

However, some people want manuals. Maybe they want it to race in the car (coding, resource intensive tasks, speed of computer, etc.). Maybe they just like the feel of a manual. Maybe they want to be able to control when the gears change more. Maybe they want to optimize the car for just one purpose. There are many reasons people might want a manual instead.

in reply to leninmummy

Remember that Android is Linux-based -- so keeping that in mind, a massive amount of normal users use Linux on a daily basis.

I think the key is, operating systems are meant to exist in the background. If it's working well, you don't think about it at all.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to infotainment

He is clearly talking about the problems with Linux the OS, i.e. GNU/Linux, not with Linux the kernel, which is what Android is based on. So Android users don't count as Linux OS users.
Besides that, I've been using Debian+KDE for over a decade as a daily driver and never had any such issues, It's hard for me to remember a single issue of importance.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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in reply to infotainment

Remember that Android is Linux-based


People keep saying this without understanding that Android was forked with several billion dollars in funding and aimed squarely at "normal" users, and had a decade of development since then.

Most "Linux" OSes really don't bother with this. How many times has someone sent you into the Android terminal to fix a problem? Literally never. It doesn't even exist without connecting a PC. Because you don't need it.

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in reply to leninmummy

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to leninmummy

I use a MacBook, a Windows PC, and Linux (school, games, work). A MacBook is by far the easiest to use, windows is a close second and Linux right behind it. Linux can be easy to use, but when stuff goes wrong, I think Troubleshooting for the average person is where it’s a bit harder. Just in general, people tend to freak out the moment they have to mess with the terminal, and memorizing commands isn’t as easy as visually remembering where to click for most people. That’s not to say that Linux is super hard to learn, I think windows and MacOS just offer a way of doing things that sticks much better in the memory than a line of commands.

I love all 3 and I believe all 3 have their strengths and weaknesses and I’m damn glad that we have choice! (Though right now I’m rooting for Linux a bit more due to the Steam Deck bringing a lot more attention to linux gaming)

in reply to Porgey

Troubleshooting for the average person is where it’s a bit harder.


I never undestood that point, i hear it quite a bit but for me its always the opposite. On linux if something dosen't work i can usually see a detailed log of what went wrong. On windows its usually an error message with barly any info, stuff like "Error code: 0x72AF9B5D1" or "IRQ_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL" isn't very usefull.

in reply to Bandicoot_Academic

Once again, you are capable of understanding what that log means. As am I, but getting a fatass log is mostly overwhelming for most. Any larger Program that average people are using aren’t giving those weird errors, that’s mostly smaller stuff. Usually windows and Mac gives you some general troubleshooting tips right off the bat or even tries to fix it for you (even though the windows auto-troubleshoot is hot garbage)
in reply to OldFartPhil

And on top of that, almost all people are familiar with Windows or MacOS, the chances of you being able to ask the person next to you about a problem and them being familiar with windows or mac is MUCH higher than with Linux. Their popularity is a massive advantage

That aside, almost every program you can think of has a windows version and 90% of the time also a Mac version. Linux support has gotten very good over the years but it’s still not close to Windows, and that translates to better support for Windows as well

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to leninmummy

in reply to leninmummy

I am a windows power user because Linux just plain doesn’t do what I expect it to.

Call me an idiot or inexperienced, but trying to transition over and do everything I can on windows doesn’t happen. When I first tried Linux in middle school, I couldn’t manage to install a single program. Software that should work doesn’t, and I still sympathize with Linus Sebastian typing in “Yes, do as I say” when all he thought he was doing was installing Steam. I’d love to transition over my daily OS to Linux, but I’m already in so deep with a million custom tools for Windows and a decade of in-depth and occupational knowledge it would be a pain to start from scratch.

Unknown parent

unkn - Link to source

Nougat

in reply to leninmummy

Driver support for (older) graphics cards.

The screen tearing issue (may be related to above)

Dependency hell.

How a program or game used to work fine on an older version but doesn't work anymore. Basically lack of backwards compatibility for software.

How you can't always do everything you want in the gui and have to use the terminal sometimes and know some of the basic commands.

How a lot of the gui programs don't have (usefull) error messages so it just leaves you confused when a program you installed doesn't want to run.

in reply to leninmummy

Tbh, after using Linux since 2019, i always needed to reinstall ubuntu based Linux distros and I have a tendency to just hate them for being so hardcoded and trashy. Feels like Windows but its evem more hardcoded.
I ended up using Manjaro and yeah, I somehow mamaged to fix most but not all problems caused by Manjaro. But it was also not a good distro. I ended up at Arch Linux and somehow managed to just never reinstall it because everything is actually... finally... not fucking hardcoded. It mostly has a good wiki page that explains the details.

The problem with Arch is that its not beginner friendly nor for people who just want things to work. Its a long process of installing and setting everything by yourself, with the advantage that you finally have a system that is fully tranaparent to yourself and easy to manage and understand it.

in reply to UnfortunateShort

Meanwhile, Windows changes its whole-ass UI (possibly a slight exaggeration but it's enough that they complain every time) every time a new version's out yet somehow "something new" doesn't apply, all of the software people would actually be using is just the same anyway, and the removed/forced "features" don't count as "good reasons." Bleh.
in reply to leninmummy

in reply to megane-kun

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in reply to Fubarberry

Same! What pushed me to Ubuntu was that Windows broke like three times in major ways in the span of a few days. One time, Windows update... disappeared bootmgr.exe. Another time, Windows bug checked after a few minutes of use. Yet another time, Windows update broke the boot partition. idk if that's exactly what happened, but point is the issues were big. How this happened in the span of like 3 days is baffling to me, considering I installed Windows from scratch each time.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Fubarberry

in reply to Fubarberry

I was typing an earlier version of my reply to you when it got lost in the aether. Sorry, but I forgot about this bit which I shall be putting in a separate reply.

people just have less experience with it. The smaller user base means there’s a lot less help available online as well.


I agree with this, wholeheartedly. However, I think those who use Linux are a self-selecting sort. This means, unfortunately, that the type of person who might be able to best help a "typical Linux newb coming from Windows" isn't using Linux in the first place, or have already gone long past the point of being able to be in a mindset best suited to help.

in reply to leninmummy

Maybe immutable OS, like Fedora Silverblue or Kinoite a try?

The idea is that it's very hard to break the system, because apps are containerized, so they don't 'touch' the system, and updates take effect only on reboots.

If update is broken, it won't apply. And you can always rollback to previous state, if you don't like something.

You don't need to install stuff from the terminal, and you can install them from a GUI 'store'.

in reply to leninmummy

Maybe give an immutable OS, like Fedora Silverblue or Kinoite a try?

The idea is that it's very hard to break the system, because apps are containerized, so they don't 'touch' the system, and updates take effect only on reboots.

If update is broken, it won't apply. And you can always rollback to previous state, if you don't like something.

You don't need to install stuff from the terminal, and you can install them from a GUI 'store'.

in reply to leninmummy

Linux can be frustrating simply because it is so powerful and versatile in the way Windows is not. Unlike Windows, Linux is not a one size fits all approach. It's designed to be customized highly.

I think newbies would be better off with Linux Mint which pretty much works out of the box. This lowers the barrier to entry. As the newbie advances in their knowledge and skill, they can begin to tinker.

It's also not easy being a newbie and getting learning support isn't always easy. A lot of us sysadmins have a tendency to forget from whence they came.

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in reply to leninmummy

This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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in reply to ѕєχυαℓ ρσℓутσρє

If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn’t really a hassle.


I see this point repeated a lot, it's just not true.

For example sudo apt upgrade is broken currently on the debian live images.

Imagine you tell someone "if you want stable, go debian" they hear it and install it and literally first apt update upgrade it's borked.

There isnt a distro that isnt a hassle, that doesnt exist.

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in reply to Nougat

in reply to leninmummy

It requires active user participation. Windows, Mac, iOS and Android will all "work" even if you have no idea what you are doing and no plans to to learn. Just keep running the apps or downloading .exes from cnet.

You can stumble your way through Linux as well but it's a lot less forgiving. If something doesn't work immediately it's up to the user to search the relevant keywords and see if there is a is a fix. That can be frustrating if you aren't so great with a search engine, you don't know what the relevant terms are or you don't know how to implement a fix that is not for your exact setup.

in reply to nik282000

Windows, Mac, iOS and Android will all “work” even if you have no idea what you are doing and no plans to to learn.


Oh no they won't. You'll just replace iOS and Android devices too often to notice, and with Windows you've gotten used to fixing broken crap.

If something doesn’t work immediately it’s up to the user to search the relevant keywords and see if there is a is a fix


Worked much better for me that the alternative process under Windows. May be the main reason I switched.

in reply to shapis

My main draw towards Linux is the exact opposite experience. I have a Linux install that has been carried over three computer and two harddisk changes over 10 years and it's still as good, or slightly better than it used to be.

My suggestion would be to start with something stable like Debian and read the manual when you want to tinker with it. Especially this:
wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebia…

in reply to shapis

Speaking of myself, I think I'm just too lazy / have too little time and energy to slowly troubleshoot everything.

I am always on a rush, and when you're on a rush and something like apt not working happens, you just implement some workaround that maybe makes everything worse or is not a full solution. As others pointed, putting commands you see on Google without fully understanding them is a bad idea, and a lot of my "Linux troubleshooting experience" is "trying a bunch of Google solutions in a trial and error fashion".

For example a base issue I have with my current installation is that I firstly installed Ubuntu and then installed KDE, instead of installing Kubuntu, and the installation is kind of glitchy. I never put the time to fix the issues that maybe were not that difficult to fix, but they were unimportant and it just worked. That stuff slowly accumulates over time until the fresh install with that characteristic "this time will be different" feel lol

This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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in reply to leninmummy

As others pointed, putting commands you see on Google without fully understanding them is a bad idea, and a lot of my "Linux troubleshooting experience" is "trying a bunch of Google solutions in a trial and error fashion".


Right? I have no idea if the solution is right until I've done it, and it's unlikely that the first one or two I try will be it. They're all black magic commands.

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in reply to Uriel-238

I have 70 and 80 year olds running Linux Mint without any problems or support hassles (because their old PCs run like dogs on windows and linux is much lighter on old hardware). It also reduces my (unpaid) support effort to nearly zero over constant windows issues.

There's a reason it's one of the most installed desktop linuxes

Install a copy on an old machine, or setup virtual box and try a virtual machine. It even comes with a "try before you buy" mode where if you boot the install USB (you need to create it) you'll boot into a working copy of Mint so you can just give it a try and make sure it works ok on your PC.

Seriously, it's very little different to windows - everything you're likely to want to do is available in a graphical window.

linuxmint.com

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Uriel-238

Unknown parent

unkn - Link to source

moon_matter

I’ve been using Linux for so long that it’s hard for me to give an approximation of what a new user might find challenging


The average person would fail on step 0 of Installing the OS. In fact 90% of the problem could be attributed to Linux distros not coming preinstalled on PCs sitting in big box stores.

All of Linux's success stories for the average user (Android, Steam Deck, Chrome book) have one thing in common. They are low cost, simple, purpose built for very specific tasks with a bunch of exclusive games/software that people want to use. We need to start looking at PCs almost like they are highly moddable game consoles. It should come with the expectation that most users don't want to leave the comfort of the walled garden.

Unknown parent

unkn - Link to source

RiikkaTheIcePrincess

Suddenly I'm curious about how many of these are the same people who laugh at warnings on coffee cups and power tools.
"WARNING: don't put your hand here or this will saw your fingers off!" "haha lol who would do that"
"WARNING: don't flip this switch or this will break your computer" "omfg why puter not work!!"
Like, damn, if you're straight-up warned then maybe the real problem's in the chair :-\ Seems there's kinda no solution for that but for the user to get smarter. Can't put all of the intelligence into the software.

Also, what's the story with the immutable distro hype? peeks out from under her rock I've heard of NixOS and various critters seem to love it but I never imagined that sort of thing would become a thing (kinda thought it was just a neat little niche) let alone a big thing for 'inexperienced' sorts.

in reply to leninmummy

I dunno, why would anyone be frustrated by having everything labeled with an incomprehensible acronym and an entirely unique and often vague directory structure with a stringent yet useless file level security?

Linux is amazing for it's ability to be customized. That comes with a cost in on ramping new users. Hell, I'm an old user, and what I know is half useless because it's so old. The end result is that I use linux to run a raspberry pi that shares out instrument data. And that's all it does. It's not a desktop, it's a tool that does a thing. It does that one thing reasonably well, and I don't have to screw with it. Because I never update it, never connect it to the internet, never install new things. Until I make a new one to do a new thing.

Honestly I have no idea why anyone would want a linux desktop for daily use. It's nice to have an environment to set up the device for what it's going to be doing. But beyond that, it's usually not even going to have a monitor attached to it.

in reply to 🌞🌞🌞

I'm looking forward to owning my computer, especially as Microsoft claws away more of my rights season by season. But WTF am I getting myself into when I make the jump? Is it possible to own my computer and have an easy to understand OS?

I hope I'm not fucking myself when I try to make the switch, but when the first response to it's got problems is don't look a gift horse in the mouth then yeah, it makes me a bit worried I'm going to be left out in the elements on my own by a community with the attitude of COD gamers.

in reply to Uriel-238

in reply to leninmummy

Learning cli tools takes time. My advice: don't do anything unless you are %100 sure what you are doing or you know how to revert whatever you did. When I first started using Linux I used to mess everything up by trying to solve my problems copy-pasting commands blindly. But in time I wanted to know what those commands were are, what each argument did etc. Apart from the cli tools, one can still mess things up with GUI apps if you edit system files blindly. Now this happens for people who want to dive a bit deeper. If you want a less risky swim, there are immutable distros where it's less likely to break things.

I still keep track of what I install and what I change on my system. That helps a lot too.

in reply to RiikkaTheIcePrincess

in reply to leninmummy

Reading comments, it's soo strange that I never borked my system once during nearly 7 years of linux usage. Playing games were frustrating, but it was improved a lot by now. My ubuntu never failed to boot, the only audio problem I had was with the mic. Even better, KDE Connect introduced new workflow to me. I wonder why my computer always boots well even when it gets borked during shutdown..

Nowadays, I use my own hand-rolled DE. It still refuses to break on me. Guess I am really lucky or something.

in reply to leninmummy

I'm a devops engineer, so I understand Linux well. I actually used exclusively Linux all throughout university.

Linux works just as good as windows for 98% of my uses cases. And for the 2% that it doesnt, I can probably figure out how to get it to work or an alternative.

But honestly, I usually just don't want to anymore. After working 8 hours, I'm very seldom in the mood to do more debugging, so I switch to Windows more and more frequently.

If this is my experience as someone who understands it, most normies will just fuck off the moment the first program they want to run doesn't.

in reply to Obsession

I work in devops as well and while Windows is easier and more convenient for many things, some processing-heavy tasks are better left to Linux. Doing generative AI stuff, for example, I don't want to be loading a bulky OS on top of the task at hand.

I thought about dual booting, but it would make multitasking nearly impossible. So, instead, I'm using Linux whenever possible and I have a Windows VM I can enter at a moment's notice or hibernate if I need the resources. And then there's the MacBook, but we don't talk about the MacBook.

in reply to Obsession

My experience is the opposite but the same. I have been a sysadmin for 15 years in mostly Windows and Microsoft only. All my work tools are in Windows.

I actually boot to Linux when I'm not supposed to work since otherwise I just have anxiety or dread and then I'll open teams, outlook, ncentral, prtg...

Also why I enjoy my switch. Can't really do projects on it like I can on Linux, but I also am switched off from work.

in reply to Obsession

This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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in reply to Obsession

I think I am more than happy with the os. The bummer is that many of the alternative softwares do not have feature parity. The more you try to mimic the Windows workflow, the more you'll burnout with minimal results. I've come to terms with it and just run a vm in gnome boxes for ms office and tableau and other stuff. However, many a times if I want something that could be done programmatically I'd definitely try a cli solution, so that cant be the same pro for everyone.
in reply to leninmummy

Simple tasks can take you way more time than needed. For example, I have an old laptop under Bunsenlabs (based on Debian with Openbox). The other day, I wanted to connect a secondary monitor. I wasn't expected the nightmare I had to setup this thing. The layout was totally off with a dead space between the two screens where the cursor disappeared and ArandR was very rough to use. I ended up editing txt file if I remember correctly.

I absolutely love Linux but this kind of thing happen quite regularly to be honest.

in reply to leninmummy

Most of linux fustration come with a lack of drivers and its fragmentation :

  • some friend's printer doesn't work with my linux.
  • I remember having a very hard time understanding optimus (nvidia-intel) and making it work.
  • when you use flatpak some thing doesn't work because it's sealed.
  • when a distro remove a very important package...and i have to find it, reinstall it
  • some graphical issue due to the various DE, or an app that haven't updated its graphical scheme.

So most of time, i follow the forum because things aren't working as expected. I lose an incredible amount of time doing that but i love it.

Linux as desktop did lot progress and i believe immutable OS with flatpak/snap will solve the fragmentation issue.

in reply to warmaster

I think gnome is almost there tbh, has all the things you'd expect of a normal computer

Can't be expected to go full windows where literally every little buried system feature has a GUI on it

Think anyone who wants to use Linux for their non-techy day to day for the most part can now, I think only problem is with moderately techy people who want to do weird stuff with their machines but don't know Linux well enough

in reply to ScreaminOctopus

Things you can't do with a GUI:

  • you can't manage advanced power management profiles
  • you can't manage devices
  • you can't manage services
  • you can't manage firewall in GNOME
  • Device Security is almost useless
  • There's no versioned backup system that does both user files & system snapshots integrated into the Desktop Environment and the DE settings app.
  • There's no DCONF equivalent for KDE (that I know of), the need for DCONF shouldn't even exist.
  • No integrated, easy to use & performant remote desktop software (VNC is not enough, RDP in GNOME just doesn't work, Sunshine is a pain to setup)

I'm an Arch user, so I'll talk about it below:
- There's no real GUI for Pacman, Pamac is known for horrible stuff. Alternatives are very inferior.
- There's no GUI for system updates integrated into the settings app

3rd party crap:
- Nvidia (nuff said)
- Flatpak (convenient, but it's still a mess)

Props to:
- AMD, I love you guys.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

Tar_alcaran

Try something simple in Windows like setting custom keyboard shortcuts… insanely frustrating.


You can set macro's under Mouse and Keyboard center (though only in win11, welcome to 1995 Microsoft!)
You can set a keyboard shortcut for a program under a shortcut's properties (since at least a couple of editions ago).

in reply to TheButtonJustSpins

Man 100%. If anyone wants to be a computer expert and is struggling, just stick with it and keep learning. You have to learn through experimentation and effort!

It's just an attitude thing that some people's egos are hurt when Linux confuses them.

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in reply to leninmummy

Basic features wouldn’t work properly if not at all.

I just installed Debian 12 on my Surface Go 2. The camera isn’t working, touch is broken, casting screen not working, on screen keyboard isn’t working.

Mind you I’m a full stack developer and i have a linux server at home so I have decent technical knowledge and a little bit of time.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to vaidooryam

No, I’ve only tried Debian. I’ve installed linux firmware packages and added non-free in sources. Also, installed surface firmware from github.

The touch is working, however, it’ll behave differently with each element. Sometimes would scroll and sometimes select.

I spent 2 days making intel iGPU hardware acceleration working btw.

Even though Windows works flawlessly, Id prefer broken Linux over it.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to deleted

in reply to deleted

Afaik Debian doesn't support proprietary drivers out of the box.

Maybe you have a better experience with other distros as Fedora (or its daughter Nobara) or Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu but imo better).

EDIT: What are your spec? I'm sure the problems you're experiencing are related to your hardware and their drivers being closed source.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to deleted

This is only something that happens when you purchase from a vendor that actively chooses not to play nice with Linux, i.e. Macs or Surfaces. They don't offer Linux drivers in the kernel, so people have to write them on their own. They'll usually eventually get into the kernel, but it takes time since creating drivers for a black box (proprietary hardware) is hard.

Also note, more stable distros will be on older kernels, meaning older and fewer drivers. It's possible that the drivers you need are in the kernel, but not the one Debian is shipping.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to deleted

I would recommend following the installation guide from the Linux Surface repo. NixOS seems to have very good support because of it's modules system, but you'll probably run into other problems using it. They provide instructions for most major distros fortunately.
in reply to leninmummy

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to leninmummy

The solution is immutable distros like Fedora Silverblue. Immutable distros are almost impossible to break. The base OS cannot be changed - all your system customizations live in your home folder and containers. And you can always rollback to a previous system snapshot if desired. fedoramagazine.org/what-is-sil…

I used to have the same problem where after tinkering, my system would eventually break and I would need to reinstall Linux. I absolutely love Fedora Silverblue but there are others like VanillaOS for an Ubuntu-based variety.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to leninmummy

The first step is to make sure your hardware is supported.
I've found the linux hardware database to be invaluable getting new systems configured.
The site is overwhelming at first, but the easy path is to just click the big 'Probe your computer' button and follow the instructions.
Once you've done a probe, you'll get a web-page with a listing of all your computer's hardware and the support status. Even better, you get links to additional drivers or kernel modules required to get stuff working which isn't supported out of the box.
in reply to leninmummy

You are doing something wrong. I stopped distrohopping ~13 years ago and never had to reinstall OS after that. If I get error messages, they are helpful enough to figure out the root of the problem (unlike that in Windows, where everything under the hood is hidden from user). For me Windows and macOS are frustrating, not Linux.

Maybe Linux is not good enough for you, maybe you are not good enough for Linux. Anyway, don't constrain yourself, use software that you are comfortable with.

in reply to leninmummy

This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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in reply to leninmummy

This is always a hilarious conversation because the diehard Linux users will lie up and down about how Linux has no problems and it's just you that's too dumb to understand how to use it.
in reply to HughJanus

Initial setup can be hard, and then, because GNU/Linux lets you do whatever you want, It's not hard to bork the system if you're using commands you don't understand. The biggest realization for me was that if I want a stable system, I can't expect to experiment with it / customize it to the nth degree unless I have a robust rollback / recovery solution like timeshift in place. Feeling very empowered after leaving windows, I have destroyed many systems, but truly, if you set up your system and then leave it alone, these days it's not difficult to have a good experience.

But yea, you're totally right: the userbase can be toxic AF, and there's no one place you can go to learn the basics you really ought to know.

in reply to HughJanus

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in reply to rocketeer8015

Agreed, you get to pick between a system that empowers you to do whatever you like, or an unborkable system. If you need something that won't let you shoot yourself in the foot, you ought to be using an immutable distro.

For ages I blamed GNU/Linux for breaking when I was unknowingly causing issues. These days, I don't fix what isn't broken, and if I can't help myself, I make sure I understand what I'm doing, write down any changes I make, and ensure I have a snapshot ready in case things don't work out.

GNU/Linux may not exclusively be for advanced users anymore, but system customization still is.

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in reply to NathanUp

Agreed, you get to pick between a system that empowers you to do whatever you like, or an unborkable system.


Yeah that's not true. There is no such thing as an "unborkable" system. There are, however, systems that aren't often borked by their developers, and systems that are easy or intuitive to fix when they do become borked, or systems that quickly ship a fix when they do become "borked" (this is Windows BTW).

The implication that any "borked" Linux install was somehow self-inflicted by the user is ridiculous.

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in reply to HughJanus

No, no OS "borks" itself. You just didnt realise what you did and why it borked your system in the end. This happens to Windows-Users too. I ended up reinstalling so many Windows machines and the user always told me they didnt do anything. I use Linux for about three years now and had to reinstall several times, because I made mistakes I couldn`t identify as mistakes at that moment. Sometimes Linux is complicated and you have to search for a solution. If you would have used Linux your whole life an switched to Windows, your experience would be very similar.

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in reply to VonVoelksen

I can’t agree as it happened to me quite a few times. The system updates, some things don’t work anymore. I turn off the computer, reboot it the next day and it works. All of that without doing anything myself.

Still, I love Linux and don’t picture myself going back to windows for my home computer. I just think we shouldn’t say Linux is perfect and the rest is shit.

in reply to HughJanus

Hey, the other day I set up a fresh Arch install in like an hour; it was easy as hell with Arch Installer in its current state. But that's me - I've been running Linux for a while, so i might be a bit out of touch with what new folks have issues with.

That said, I think a lot of problems new users have with Linux really do come down to foolish mistakes, an unwillingness to read manuals, expecting Linux to work like Windows/Mac, or a combination of the above.
Not all problems, but many.

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in reply to leninmummy

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to leninmummy

in reply to leninmummy

In my experience, users get frustrated with Linux because they think they know a lot about computers, but in reality just know a lot about Windows. These people are unwilling to learn new workflows and OS concepts, so they get frustrated and give up. Of course, this isn't to say Linux can't be genuinely frustrating, because it 100% can be, but I think Linux and Windows are equally frustrating if you know them both well.

It's hard to say why your experience was frustrating without many more details.

in reply to priapus

Yes and no. There are the type of people who will go 'Aaarghh! I can't open my Microsoft Edge through Microsoft Cortana to use Microsoft Bing! Linux sucks!!!1!!', but there are also things in Linux that are frustrating.

The biggest annoyance to me is how small the border around windows is. On Windows, I can grab anywhere around the edge of a window and resize it, including in both directions from the corners. In Linux, I need an electron microscope to find the edges, and the hand of god to find a corner.

If I want to paste something in Windows, it's ctrl v. If I want to paste in Linux, it's ctrl v. Unless it's the terminal, which is shift, ctrl v. Or edge cases where it's shift and insert.

They don't tend to be major problems, but they break your workflow, and that makes them feel a lot worse.

in reply to Tippon

I agree with you that Linux can be frustrating, I said this in my above comment. I just don't think Linux is inherently more frustrating than Windows. I use Linux on my personal devices and servers, as well as servers at work. I also use Windows on my work laptop. I find using Windows to be a much more frustrating experience, but I know that is partially because I use Linux more often.
in reply to Tippon

The biggest annoyance to me is how small the border around windows is. On Windows, I can grab anywhere around the edge of a window and resize it, including in both directions from the corners. In Linux, I need an electron microscope to find the edges, and the hand of god to find a corner.


This is a problem with the DE that you use and not linux in general. Gnome and KDE for example don't have this issue. I'm guessing you're using xfce?, since I had the same issue with it.

in reply to leninmummy

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in reply to leninmummy

I think it is a mix of closed mindedness and unfair metrics.

Like no one would say that Windows sucks because it cannot run Final Cut Pro, but that standard gets put on Linux all the time.

As far as intuitive that has to do with context. Going from Windows to macOS or in reverse is also going to take some getting used to.

in reply to InternetCitizen2

This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

GnuLinuxDude

I really wish the Linux community would do a better job of separating the software updates from the core operating system and user space apps.


You can accomplish this with something like Debian stable and Flatpaks. OK, but now you have to explain these concepts to people, too 😆. It works great but it's not quite user friendly. Ubuntu gets dunked on a lot for Snaps but I think they are actually the one mainstream distro that is trying to make Snaps as transparent for users as possible, thereby achieving the goal of separating the core operating system from user applications. Though I still prefer Flatpaks.

in reply to leninmummy

When I was a child we had basic computer literacy classes in elementary school. They showed you how to get around Windows and use computers a bit. Somehow, I doubt that those kinds of classes ever taught Linux.

But the real problem I think is that Linux distros also never had Microsoft's budget to develop, assemble, test, and release the operating system + software suite. The fact that Linux is as good as it is in spite of that is really something special.

in reply to GnuLinuxDude

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

GnuLinuxDude

Both are similar, and the very short version is they are sandboxed applications that bundle their own dependencies and can update out of band with your distro's software repository. With Flatpaks they can share a common runtime environment, but I think with Snaps they bundle everything into the snap (I might be wrong about this).

One key difference is that Snap is basically only on Ubuntu, and Snaps can also bundle CLI applications or server software. Flatpaks are currently really meant for desktop applications.

In both cases you can modify the permissions of the the programs they bundle sort of like how you might expect on iOS or Android. That is to say you can restrict their access to the file system, the network, or other things. So, as an example, I can run a proprietary program as a Flatpak but ensure it cannot access my Bluetooth if for some reason I feel that need.

in reply to leninmummy

When I was still a Linux noob I used to want to do all of the cool customizations and would often end up rendering the operating system unusable. Eventually I just switched to KDE whoch has a lot of customization built in. Some distros make it harder to shoot yourself in the foot, but I think being able to customize and run the latest software out of the box makes a huge difference.
Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

QuazarOmega

You can save yourself from reinstalling over and over by using an immutable distribution so at any point you will know what changed in your system and if it breaks you can just roll back to the previous working point and either fix your mistake or wait for a fix from upstream when an issue happens there (this year there were a few kinda major hiccups on Fedora for example).
I suggest you try one of the Fedora immutable spins (Silverblue, Kinoite, Sericea) or Vanilla OS, though I would hold off from it until Orchid comes out.
If you want to go all in you can use NixOS, but it takes a lot of reading
in reply to leninmummy

I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again.


That's common when you start adding random PPAs, running some commands without understanding (we all do 👀) and whatnot, but you can save yourself from reinstalling over and over by using an immutable distribution so at any point you will know what changed in your system and if it breaks you can just roll back to the previous working point and either fix your mistake or wait for a fix from upstream when an issue happens there (this year there were a few kinda major hiccups on Fedora for example).
I suggest you try one of the Fedora immutable spins (Silverblue, Kinoite, Sericea) or Vanilla OS, though I would hold off from it until Orchid comes out.
If you want to go all in you can use NixOS, but it takes a lot of reading

in reply to leninmummy

in reply to Captain Aggravated

KDE, but it seems I soft-broke it as well while installing after regular Gnome Ubuntu. Now I'm installing Kubuntu on my laptop and will try out any other distro on a new SSD I bought for my desktop.

As others pointed, doing stuff in a rush and blindly using guides and pasting commands makes everything more difficult. No matter how robust or good the UI is lol

Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

Cypher

Attacking people because there are valid criticisms of Linux, which you haven’t refuted at all, shows how utterly stupid you are.

Yes there are valid criticisms of Windows. No that does not give you a pass to attack people who use it, they have made their own choice.

One device, which you admit works with the correct drivers, doesn’t remotely compare to a glaring flaw with audio that I can find first mentioned in 2002 still impacting Linux today.

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in reply to leninmummy

As a mostly windows user, I've tried a few times, using various distributions. When buying my last pc and installing a popular linux distribution, it did not recognise my network card at all. Researching online told me I had to compile the drivers myself, since my distri did not have any shipped with it yet. ...which is pretty hard, having no internet access because of the network card not working. To be fair, that was ~8 years ago.

For non-tech users, I feel like some parts are still pretty hard to diagnose. If an issue arises you mostly have to touch the command line and I can understand people being scared of it, having to edit plain text files, or type and enter commands that aren't descriptive, much less finding the right command by guessing. It certainly improved, with GUIs being available for most stuff, but if you want something specific, is still feels pretty rough on the edges sometimes, from the eyes of a normal user.

If you mostly need your basic apps, like browser, some office apps or a music player it works great, though.

in reply to jelloeater85

I had a bad time with ubuntu 18 lts and Bluetooth. Neither bluez nor the other one (forget which) would recognise the controller in my mobo. Tried the man pages. Searched high and low. Asked for help on the forums - got nothing. Decided to never again try using Linux for my workstation. I'm perfectly happy to use it to run my scripts, daemons and containers on a dedicated box, but there's just no upside for my games and work machine.
in reply to leninmummy

Is a different paradigm. The way you do almost anything is different from windows, from updating drivers to downloading programs. It's frustrating in the same way driving in the wrong side of the road can be frustrating, or going a whole day using only your non dominant hand.

I've tried to convince a couple people over the last few years to convert, and their issues always baffle me, until my brother tried for a week and I finally understood. It's just unlearned everything they've been doing for years, to do things a different way.

in reply to leninmummy

in reply to leninmummy

There's a lot of little things to you need to learn, that you don't learn until actually messing around with in Linux which absolutely make or break your experience with Linux, and that Linux users will mock you for asking about.

For a lot of people windows just works how they want it, so when they're convinced to switch by a friend/family member/youtuber they now have to relearn what was incredibly easy for them, which absolutely will cause frustrations regardless.

And a lot of Linux dudes get really defensive and elitist when you ask them to explain or help, like screaming that you're afraid of the command line when you've just never needed to use it before. So the initial learning curve is rough, to het more or less what you had before(For an avg user)

Like. I'm sorry, but having an issue keeping you from using your pc, and only getting advice to read the documentation of the distro, when you could have just kept windows, is going to frustrate people

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to MiloSquirrel

The command line is always going to turn people away from Linux. I've only had to use the command line to fix a windows issue once in the past 10 years while I regularly have to use it every time I have to work with Linux.

People like convenience and will almost always go with the more convenient option even if it's not the best option.

Until the majority of issues can be solved using point and click (and help forums show that method over command line), Linux will always lag behind Mac and Windows.

in reply to leninmummy

Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

Captain Aggravated

Problem: Every major distro has its own unique package manager; dpkg/APT, rpm, yum, pacman etc. It's a nightmare to package apps for Linux, so let's make one universal standard package management system.

Three or four independent projects: Okay, here you go!

Problem: Every major distro has its own unique package manager, and there's three different incompatible universal ones and because one of them is made in-house at Canonical none of the three are supported out of the box on every distro.

Arch users: muh AUR.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

QuazarOmega

Yeah, actually I don't know how I ended up responding to you, I have since deleted that comment, I meant it for the OP.
Aside from that, when you're as experienced as you, you generally don't end up breaking your system anyway, if one really wanted I think the real good thing to do regardless of distro would be using one of the few packaging solutions that are siloed from the rest system
in reply to leninmummy

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Mikina

This is exactly why I switched off daily driving Linux after a few months. I didn't find it hard to get things set up initially, but you keep running into constant issues that take hours to troubleshoot and fix.

I got to the point where if I booted up my computer to quickly do a task and I got a cryptic error message that I had to put into Google to fix one more time, I'm not wasn't going to troubleshoot it, I was going to throw my PC out the window.

I love the ideas behind Linux, and I love having open source alternatives to windows and Mac, and I've donated to a couple projects.... but based on my last attempt (1-2 years ago) Linux is still far from being a daily driver alternative on personal computers for the average person.

in reply to leninmummy

You don't choose Linux. Linux choose you. That being said

It's not that hard actually but you need a lot of free time and motivation to keep learning. When I was a student I was deep on Archlinux + DWM / AwesomeWM + lots of console applications now that I am a functional working men I just stick to a stable distro (Currently Debian Testing) I think the secret is have good hardware compatibility and if you want to try some weird configuration just use a VM first or just use a immutable distro.

in reply to Piers

The UI or DE (desktop environment) is actually interchangeable no matter what diatro you're on. But KDE is kind of moving ahead as the favorite it seems. The you have Gnome, which is what vanilla Ubuntu comes with... And that has spinoffs like cinnamon that come with Mint.

A few distros have really made the user experience pretty damn simple. I personally love EndeavourOS as it seems to be the best of all worlds for me personally. But for any of my non techy friends, I suggest or personally set them up with Mint more often than not Mint is a far better experience overall than Ubuntu in my opinion. But I greatly prefer the package manager (yay) in EndeavourOS.

in reply to leninmummy

I've found that many new users can't be bothered to learn new things and don't understand enough about their situation to explain the problem they're having. What they are looking for is someone to simply give them the answer so they can carry on. Many times they'll wind up looking for an answer to a generic question related to, "this doesn't work", and find a generic answer that doesn't work or breaks something when they copy and paste it to their system.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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in reply to leninmummy

in reply to Axellon

Not just "oh this is for redhat and I'm on Ubuntu" but what I run into all the time is that you find a perfect guide but it turns out to be for the wrong version of Ubuntu. So most of it works until you get half way through and you get an error because they've switched from initd to systemd or something. Then you are stuck, do you try to roll back what you've done so far? Try to adapt the instructions to the new system? Then you end up chasing your tail down rabbit holes of what is backwards compatible, what isn't, what can coexist and what can't, etc etc etc.

If you have been using a particular distro and are familiar with the subsystems then the new version comes out and you just have to learn about the few changes in the release but for someone new it adds a whole second layer of complexity to have to learn the whole new OS in addition to trying to blindly figure out how the old system worked, what's different in the new system and how you adapt instructions from the old one to the new one, or if you should just give up and try to find a different guide that will work.

in reply to Axellon

This man page is thirty pages long and has in depth descriptions of all fifty switches in alphabetical order, but all i want is an example on how to do a very simple, common thing with it. And of course, all commands have their own syntax (of course windows isn’t any better, outside of Powershell).


Yes man is intended to be a manual so it's understandably bad at being a cheatsheet. Check out tldr or tealdeer. They are similar but I found tealdeer to be much faster for me. Also try a shell with better completion than bash, like zsh or fish. Having better completion will sometimes sidestep the need for a cheatsheet altogether.

Don’t curl to bash, it’s dangerous.


You can curl the file normally, inspect, and then run it with bash. All the safety issues of running stuff you found online still apply (is the source trusted?), but you don't get the issues that arise specifically from piping curl to bash. But most applications don't need you to curl | bash in the first time because of package managers.

Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

dmar

You spend much more time trying to fix something in Linux and get it working than actually using it to do useful work.


Not really..

On Linux if it breaks, I can often dig into the source and quickly figure out what's broken.

On Windows, I'm usually shit outta luck. Gotta trawl through tons of messy forums and bullshit SEO-optimised blogspam sites to find a solution.

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in reply to leninmummy

The average person is extremely tech illiterate. This is not a condemnation of their personal choices, or view of the world, or politics or anything like that. Even highly educated people cannot explain even the most basic things about computers, the internet, electricity or the nature of information.

Linux feels simple to you because you likey have both education and experienced with computer systems. However, the interconnected world is not that difficult to understand if you have the opportunity to understand it. This privilege absolutely makes everyone else in the world who does not have that opportunity or desire feel shockingly inept on technology issues.

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in reply to ohlaph

Yes, agreed, most folks want an appliance that "just works". Something where they have some sort of ""store"" that presents them with single-click installable stuff that again, "just works" and is intuitive to find once installed.

The answer to that though is not a general dumbing down of linux, that ruins every reason most of us have always been here. The right answer is to have a (multiple) distribution that can be easily installed by any completely technologically ignorant person and offers the simple appliance experience. It would be even better if this same distribution could be installed on any computer be it in a closet, under a desk, on a shelf, in a vehicle, or in a pocket to offer a somewhat seamless user experience. As a bonus, these different devices should offer the ability to connect/interact with each other in a simple manner from the common user's perspective.

Linux reshared this.

in reply to felis_magnetus

Sorta what I was hinting at. Android is very close, and getting closer all the time. But it still takes quite a bit more than a bit of skill to install and make it work on something that doesn't have an explicit installer.

I'd argue that at the moment, we don't really have anything that can fill this need. I think that maybe some combination of android-style UX with a Nix-like stoutness and configurability could be the right direction.

Linux reshared this.

in reply to ohlaph

But that's the thing, it's not dumb it down, it's better design for average user. Linux is not going get to mass adoption if fresh from install you have to run several commands to make your audio/game/camera work. Sure, it might be fixable with a single command, but your average user won't know which, and won't know how to search for it on Google.

Linux based OS like android got mass adopted because you don't even need to open a shell once and your whole hardware works out of the shelf. That's not the experience with Linux.

Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

ᗪᗩᗰᑎ

Flatpak allows you to package your app once and make it available on at least 36 different distros [0] (if not hundreds more if you count their spinoffs). See the list of available packages at flathub [1]. Read more about Flatpak in general here [2].

[0] flathub.org/setup

[1] flathub.org/

[2] flatpak.org/

in reply to leninmummy

It's like so many other things, it's simple when you know it well but when you don't have a lot of experience it's very daunting. A lot depends on understanding the file system, like what is the difference between /run and /media and / and /root? So much is command line with some pretty arcane commands and parameters. And not knowing what tools there are to help, and not knowing how to fix things when they break.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX

Uhhhh... Every single one. You can easily Google it, and chances are you will find a forum post about it somewhere because everyone uses Windows. Windows even has a multi billion dollar international company providing 24/7 support for it, for free. If you have a problem with Linux, good fucking luck finding help with it.
in reply to KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX

I get what you're saying; a good portion of the issues you encounter on Windows aren't solvable as they are in the design or you have to wait for Microsoft to fix the issues, if they ever do. A lot of the design isn't even for the customer, it's for the advertisers or other interests. That said, you're coming off pretty aggressive and I don't think you'll get many to consider your argument when brought forth in such a manner.
in reply to rivalary

That said, you’re coming off pretty aggressive


This person I am responding to has no idea what a kernel is. That said, he or she should not be giving some questionably authoritative answer (which is clearly wrong.)

So are you going to post that Windows kernel source code? I'll hold my breath.

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in reply to dmar

I can often dig into the source and quickly figure out what's broken.


And for the 99.9% of humanity for whom that is either impossible, or a dreadful slog,

On Windows, I'm usually shit outta luck. Gotta trawl through tons of messy forums and bullshit SEO-optimised blogspam sites


While this^ is a practical option...
This^ is a practical optionof hu

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in reply to leninmummy

Well, why should the average end-user use Linux, actually? If your answer is privacy, taking control back or something in that general line, you're essentially advocating for a technological solution on the individual level as a solution to what essentially are and always have been political and ideological problems. Expecting that to work out is wishful thinking at best. I have growing suspicions, though, that it's more like a different ideological layer, and in that regard quite akin to making the climate catastrophe about choices of individual consumers (of which they often have very few, actually).
in reply to felis_magnetus

I originally switched out of privacy concerns, not that MS or someone else was stealing my personal data and work directly but that it would just inadvertently get leaked with some massive cloud fuckup as seems to happen regularly.

Since then I prefer it just because I can run it on decades old hardware, it's consistent between different versions of the same Distro (W7 through to W11 gives me anxiety), and I don't have to worry about a hardware change invalidating a product key so I have to re-buy my damned OS. Shit, yeah, it's an ideological thing.

in reply to dylanTheDeveloper

Is that true? Every error in Linux is logged, configurations are readable.
For me, I'm very tech savvy, clicking around in GUIs hoping to find something, spelunking in event manager trying to find an error, is so much harder than in Linux.

This is very personal, I know. How do you debug and fix issues in Windows again? :-) It has been a while.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to leninmummy

I don't know what average people could do to break their system, considering nowadays, it is practically impossible to break anything if you are using Software Management tool your Distro gave. I don't say I don't believe you. Something could break. But I suppose you are trying to do something that average Joes would not attempt.

I installed Linux on my coworkers, friends and families, and nothing break. Heck, I even gave my friend Arch Linux. I told them to only install thing from the Store and never touch command line without talking to me first. It's been 6 months.

Linux for average people is been there. It's ready. OnlyOffice is just like Ms. Office but Open Source. If you are willing to learn, LibreOffice is far better than Ms. Office. Linux supports all browser. KdenLive and Krita work better in Linux. GNOME is way easier to navigate than Windows, with superior gesture and beauty Windows could only dream of.

Windows has its perk, but saying Linux is hard is no longer true.

in reply to Uluganda

Once everything is set up, linux is easy. But... that installation process can still go very wrong. eg. The last install I did was Ubuntu 22.04. The version of systemd that shipped with it had a bug that caused the system not to boot. Replacing systemd with a working version fixed that issue. Then it turns out that 5 of the graphics card driver's dependances were held back (something recent that Ubuntu does, I forget why) so the driver didnt work. Force installing the dependancies (drop to root before KDE started) fixed that.

So yeah if you set things up for someone of course its going to be easy to use. It SHOULD be easy to use after 30 years of development. But that initial setup process is often not user friendly.

in reply to Uluganda

This is simply not true in my experience. Basically everyone I know has to deal with all kinds of shit when installing Linux. Broken graphics drivers, random freezes, the touchpad disabling after closing the laptop, wifi not working, etc. There's always something. Now I don't mind fixing that, because I enjoy Linux more despide all of these issues. Andost of my friends manage to solve it as well because they're programmers like me. But the average person might not be able to solve it and will feel like they're constantly interacting with a broken system.

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in reply to leninmummy

I put Linux Mint on my grandmothers old computer because the hardware was preventing it from upgrading from Windows 7 without massive slowdown. Back when she was using windows (albeit windows 7) she would call me every week with a new issue. Since installing mint she very rarely has issues and whatever issues she does run into can usually be solved very easily over the phone. I would say that Linux is what you make it. If you want to copy and paste commands from sketchy guides, things are going to break. But if you just use it like my grandmother does, browsing the web and writing emails, nothing can really go wrong
in reply to leninmummy

When I got into Linux I read every physical book I could. Physical books on a subject tend to be written to have chapters that cover whole material. When you try and learn from multipe ebooks you randomly found online you end up cherry picking bits and pieces and never actually read every chapter, so you miss fundamentals.

Maybe you would benefit by reading a PAPER copy of a book about Linux and the especially command line. Linux is a very command line oriented system so maybe trying to tackle some of the struggles head on will help you unlock apt any other tools.

in reply to leninmummy

People get used to things they understand so they don't want to learn. Frustration builds as you get older, so I am glad I started a long time ago, and I have a lot of respect for people who are willing to learn constantly and are patient. I learn(ed) from trial and error, I like poking the bear and being able to see what works/doesn't and why. The responses I got regarding lack of linux usage is that people don't like spending time troubleshooting, or they get super jaded and just want something that works then and there, just so they don't think too much about it. But now the irony is that windows will piss them off so much they will have no choice but to learn the distro they choose. It's like vim, at first it seems strange, but once you learn it you will never look back. Learning is done as long as there is curiosity and need involved.
in reply to leninmummy

in reply to leninmummy

For many it is simply frustrating because it is not Windows. Just think about how many people have a hard time already to get the most simple things done on Windows. Can you imagine those people to switch to another platform? Those people who cannot find their banking app anymore when something moved the icon on the desktop to another position?
in reply to Treczoks

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

patatahooligan

Switching between Windows and Ubuntu led to a weird time difference on Window’s part (it still does)


Google how to set your windows clock to UTC. You can maybe do the reverse and set linux to localtime, but I find it much cleaner that the system clock is in UTC as it's an objective and stable standard, unlike localtime which can change with daylight savings or if your move.

in reply to Cypher

The few times a have some minor issue on linux, it is probably audio related or related to working with multiple different screens with different refresh rates, resolutions, etc, so you probably have a point.

However, I did have various issues with audio and multiple screens on windows as well, I would say even more frequently. However, on windows those issues were generally resolved after a restart, on linux I actually had to do some troubleshooting.

in reply to leninmummy

I used elementaryOS back in 2016. It was the best system, the best experience, the best look and feel. That was amazing.

Everything went to shit with one of the updates. It destroyed the graphics drivers and I wasn't able to reinstall it correctly. Shortly after they released the new big version of elementaryOS which was just bad. Looked bad, worse user experience. It was also slower. And even small update killed my graphic drivers. Again. That was it. Back to Windows. Few years after that I moved to MacOS and now it's stable, looking nice and I am confident that the os will work pretty much the same on the next day.

It's crucial when you have a freelance work. I just can't imagine waking up to see that my Linux machine decided to fuck me up on a that particular day. Nope.

in reply to Quacksalber

You may be accustomed to the process, but fixing issues in the registry is not intuitive. It is simple enough if you find a guide that tells you exactly which item you need to work on and exactly what the default is and what you need to change it to, but what if the guide isn't exactly what you want?

In the GNU/Linux ecosystem, nearly every program has a config file. Sometimes each line has detailed comments in plain text around it you what the option does with examples of what it could be. If the documentation doesn't exist, you can dig deeper and see what that option does in the source which is usually documented as well. Programming experience is not required to search for text and read comments. Such documentation is not equivalent in Windows.

in reply to leninmummy

While this isn't the only reason, I think part of it is that linux, windows and osx are good at different things. If you move from windows and try to install your favorite windows programs, you're probably going to have an experience that's worse than the windows one. If you move from linux to windows the experience is much worse in that regard. To really see the value of linux you have to get used to having e.g. a tiling window manager or a package manager (tbf, chocolatey on windows is ok). But when you're just getting into it, linux just feels weird and convoluted in comparison.
Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

LiamSora

Here's how to fix the time issue. Problem is by default Windows saves the time to the hardware clock in local time, but Linux saves it as UTC. You can make Windows also save it as UTC by changing a registry setting:

For 64-bit Windows, open regedit then browse to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation. Create a new DWORD entry called RealTimeIsUniversal, then set its value to 1. Reboot the system. The clock should now be in UTC time.
Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

aski3252

A normal person should not have to deal with different distros.


Ideally, clients would get shipped with linux of course, but at the moment, that's hardly an option. There could also be value in having clients shipped with different distros installed.

Apple forbids you to install it on a banana. Fuck apple.


For this reason I would never buy an apple device again. However, I do see the value of having a super stable and controlled environment where it is super hard for users to fuck things up.

in reply to leninmummy

Most people stop trying anything technical as soon as it does not work as they expected.

As soon as something unexpected happens or something expected doesn't happen, they drop it.

While Windows is like that for me and my needs, for them it is Linux.

in reply to PseudoSpock

Sure, but people don't just randomly decide to learn something unless they want to learn it or they think it is useful. I can't drive a manual transmission car. Car enthusiasts may explain to me while they're blue in the face why they're better but unless I actually want to do it I want do it even though "learning" is a good thing inherently. That's how folks who don't understand Linux view it. The goodness of "learning" is not enough to get them to want to do it.
in reply to leninmummy

in reply to denny

The zoo of system software on Linux is a real issue.

For Windows, if you are the local family admin, if someone asks you how to solve some issue, there are only two possible (and quite similar) options (Win10 and 11). You can either point them to the right location in the settings if you know it by heart, or you just fire up your PC and tell them each step.

If it's Linux, you first start with the question "What distro are you using?" and then they answer something you maybe have never heard.

in reply to leninmummy

Because clicking a button, finding out it works sometimes but not for you, then the top 3 google links might have a solution to parts of your problem, and you'll have to type in commands to run stuff you probably ran less than 20 times in your entire lifetime, kinda sucks. Even if you try to learn what actually went on, you'd need to do mental gymnastics.

Having multiple buttons to click and have what you want done almost all the time is much easier in comparison.

Source: was once a beginner, although it does get easier.

in reply to leninmummy

The Linux community doesn't understand what "just works" really means.

Whether windows or mac, I plug my machine to the docking station, and it just works.

With Linux, every day a different problem. Out of the blue, screens just stop working. Resolutions change. Every restart different behavior. Zero consistency.

I'm not 17 anymore... I don't have the time to keep tweaking. I need to be productive.

So what do I do? I SSH to a Linux machine whose desktop environment I don't wanna see, and code remotely. Most productive setting.

You asked. Here's the answer.

in reply to Rassilonian Legate

Try using screens with different resolutions at the same time. Always gave me trouble. In my case was always using a horizontal one and a vertical one together. I've had framerate problems, tearing, artefacts (parts of the vertical screen wouldn't update while the other 2 worked fine). From time to time, X will forget my monitor configuration too after a reboot / unplugging the dock / waking from sleep.
All that with 2 laptops from different brands using different docstations, one with XFCE on Ubuntu and the other with KDE on Arch.
I got it mostly working, but it's still troublesome
in reply to TheQuantumPhysicist

you hit the nail on the head. When I first got into linux I was watching some youtube video about I think the pine phone and the person basically came to the realization, and you can see the sadness on his face, that people want their computer to work like an kitchen appliance. Plug it in, press button, it does it thing. No need to learn about how it works.

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in reply to leninmummy

Most of the comments here are talking about the x% of time Linux gets messed up it can be really intimidating for new users and getting the right help can be a challenge, or simply more time than it's worth.

I think this is true, but I think there's another thing that irks people:

Software Compatibility

The general public primarily interacts with their computers through established applications that commonly aren't available on Linux w/o intimidating work around (if at all).

A noob who switches to Linux isn't going to know the limitations up front, and the second they decide they want to learn Adobe Premier for work, they're kinda fucked. They'll either spend hours/days of online research trying to figure out if it's even possible, or they'll ask for help only to have someone tell them they're wrong for trying and to use some FOSS alternative because Adobe is an evil megacorp.

It's a recipe for frustration.

in reply to h14h

The last part is a real issue. You can pretty much guarantee, that whenever you ask for help/talk about issues with Linux anywhere online, some helpful Linux zealot will be there to tell you what an idiot you are for having issues with Linux. Most of the time, these guys have been running Ubuntu off a Life USB stick for a week or two so far.

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in reply to h14h

That last part is my experience when I tried installing a "non-supported printer" for my computer. I wanted to hook up into a computer my brother bought, and ended up in the printer model's manufacturer's page and having to choose between an Ubuntu driver and a Debian one. I use neither.

I eventually found my way to the AUR repository (because btw, I used Manjaro at the time—go figure what's wrong in this scenario, lol!) and even ended up on some random repos for similar models. There were a lot of conflicting advice: like using a driver for a similar printer, or making my own package for my printer model.

I ended up deciding that I somehow have to make a package for my printer model, and having asked around for advice on how to do this, I was met with "why even brother with that printer brand?!" And I was like, "because that's what's available to me! And I don't have enough money to buy a different one! I just want this to work!!"

This entry was edited (2 years ago)

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in reply to leninmummy

Pretty simple, really. Buy a console for gaming, or a separate machine for gaming. I don't game, the joy of that died with the loss of lan parties and Tribes II.

Choose a system, make it your daily driver for work and home, and you will form the habits and muscle memory. Don't and it will remain a struggle to some degree or another.

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Unknown parent

lemmy - Link to source

meat_popsicle

It goes both ways, that’s what Windows plebs don’t understand. All the issues Windows plebs …


Does it make you a patrician to use Linux? Are you a father figure now to society?

We plebeians are just waiting on your glory to shine upon us, o high one.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to leninmummy

in reply to Sir Arthur V Quackington

I think you are right, but I also think it's a bit more in the relearning side than on the "Linux is hard" side.

I also spent most of my time working on Windows. When I started to work with Linux, like the OP I spent many years with in the "use it until I mess something up and then reinstall because I can't fix it" loop. But after a few years I really got into it. I haven't done a misconfiguration related reinstall in many years.

But if you put me in front of a Mac, I wouldn't even know how to copy/paste text.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Square Singer

But if you put me in front of a Mac, I wouldn’t even know how to copy/paste text.


I've had to troubleshoot router problems for a neighbor who uses Mac, and man was it a confusing experience. The UX is obviously Mac, so I've had trouble with it. But when I got to the command-line, it almost broke me. Why I was even in the command-line in the first place? I don't even know! But it's a confusing mix of familiar (from daily-driving Linux), and unfamiliar (different Mac-specific commands and syntax).

Someone else could probably point out what I've done wrong, but it still doesn't make it not a confusing experience. It's humbling, and the kids who've hung around me watching me try to fix their computer were even giving me tips (mostly on how to navigate the UI, helping me where to find the settings, etc).

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Sir Arthur V Quackington

in reply to leninmummy

I started using Ubuntu at work with version 18.00. It worked without a hitch. Then, it updated to 20.00, and printing broke. I tried multiple "solutions" and none of them worked for my case. For literal years, I had to go to the front desk and print my shit there on the Mac which always printed without issue. Thankfully, in my case I don't print that much so it wasn't a huge problem, but I know for some that would be a complete deal breaker.

Cue version 22.00, and printing works again, albeit not always. My jobs get canceled periodically for no reason I can ascertain.

I had similar issues back in the mid-00s with a laptop I was trying to run Ubuntu 6.00 on. It mostly worked, but the webcam and trackpad were a lost cause to someone of my moderate abilities.

It's shit like this that hold Linux back. I've been running some form of Windows since 95, and I've never had unsolvable hardware problems with it.

in reply to leninmummy

Well lets look at what i did to switch to linux. It was about 2 years ago and I was still using windows 8 since I didn't all the spyware in my operating system. I went with linux mint first since it was stated to be super new user friendly. I was so new to linux that I had to ask what neofetch was and how to use it. It was easy to use but I mostly just use web browser, steam, and libre office, which I had been useing libre office for years before that. Linux mint made a very frictionless new user experience. But I still needed that motive to move onto to something now. For me that breaking point was windows just having so must spyware in the os. Rather then using windows 10 or 11 I held onto window to windows 8 and then moved onto linux mint.
in reply to leninmummy

This entry was edited (2 years ago)