Why is Linux so frustrating for some people?
Don't get me wrong. I love Linux and FOSS.
I have been using and installing distros on my own since I was 12.
Now that I'm working in tech-related positions, after the Reddit migration happened, etc. I recovered my interest in all the Linux environment.
I use Ubuntu as my main operating system in my Desktop, but I always end up feeling very limited. There's always software I can't use properly (and not just Windows stuff), some stuff badly configured with weird error messages... last time I was not able to even use the apt command. Sometimes I lack time and energy for troubleshooting and sometimes I just fail at it.
I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again. Maybe Linux is not good for beginners working full time? Maybe we should do something like that Cisco course that teaches you the basic commands?
I have been using and installing distros on my own since I was 12.
Now that I'm working in tech-related positions, after the Reddit migration happened, etc. I recovered my interest in all the Linux environment.
I use Ubuntu as my main operating system in my Desktop, but I always end up feeling very limited. There's always software I can't use properly (and not just Windows stuff), some stuff badly configured with weird error messages... last time I was not able to even use the apt command. Sometimes I lack time and energy for troubleshooting and sometimes I just fail at it.
I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again. Maybe Linux is not good for beginners working full time? Maybe we should do something like that Cisco course that teaches you the basic commands?
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can
in reply to leninmummy • • •MiserableConstruct
in reply to leninmummy • • •All that said it really depends on what programs you are using. Some have alternatives sure but sometimes that's not enough. Sometimes you will have a program that just pins you to Windows until you don't need it anymore.
You should list out what things you use that you need. Take some recommendations on their alternatives or how to set them up in Linux and see if it sounds like it'd work for you.
Ketchup
in reply to leninmummy • • •… But I want to use it. I agree with the values, and I prefer the customization and optimal use of my hardware… am I missing something as a Linux user about which distro or the way in which I’m using it.
are some of these considerations also part of what spurred your post OP?
Melpomene
in reply to Ketchup • • •Microsoft actually made the process easier by making Office 365 useful. If I need MS Office specifically I can just run it well enough from a browser.
Ketchup
in reply to Melpomene • • •In any case thanks for the good input!
Millie
in reply to leninmummy • • •For me, I love working with Linux and have been doing it on and off for decades, but it doesn't tend to remain my daily because of the extra steps and limitations.
I think if I had a more full working knowledge of Linux and I knew Python or had a stronger grasp of other languages, I'd be a lot more able to fill those gaps. But without that, it there are all these barriers to productivity that aren't there otherwise. Instead of doing the thing I'm trying to do, i end up spending the night messing around with some depreciated program or struggling with a weird use case and it simply requires way more of my time to get there.
Considering that I have a lot more experience with Linux than the average person and still run into this regularly, I'd say it's a big barrier to wider adoption.
Honestly the solution is probably more on the end of getting together to make some o... show more
For me, I love working with Linux and have been doing it on and off for decades, but it doesn't tend to remain my daily because of the extra steps and limitations.
I think if I had a more full working knowledge of Linux and I knew Python or had a stronger grasp of other languages, I'd be a lot more able to fill those gaps. But without that, it there are all these barriers to productivity that aren't there otherwise. Instead of doing the thing I'm trying to do, i end up spending the night messing around with some depreciated program or struggling with a weird use case and it simply requires way more of my time to get there.
Considering that I have a lot more experience with Linux than the average person and still run into this regularly, I'd say it's a big barrier to wider adoption.
Honestly the solution is probably more on the end of getting together to make some of these issues less complicated than on the end of expecting everyone to become a well versed Linux enthusiast. With such a high learning curve, unless you're using it for something it's particularly good at doing easily, you kind of have to want to get into Linux for its own sake in order to learn enough to make it easier to use. And even then, it's a struggle sometimes.
kitsastro
in reply to Millie • • •Millie
in reply to kitsastro • • •Yote.zip
in reply to leninmummy • • •Most people grew up with Windows and learned how to use it over the years, but remember that it took years, and most of them still aren't very good at it. Linux requires different knowledge than Windows, but it doesn't inherently mean that it's harder. If everyone grew up using Linux we wouldn't hear about "how hard Linux is" but instead about "how hard Windows is".
At least when something is broken in Linux, it probably has a cause (usually the user) and solution, and a way to debug what happened. When something breaks in Windows you've got about 3 things you can try before the solution is to reinstall.
As for solutions, I don't know if there's a certified pathway into Linux - I think installing something like Linux Mint and just using it like a computer would go a long way towards getti... show more
Most people grew up with Windows and learned how to use it over the years, but remember that it took years, and most of them still aren't very good at it. Linux requires different knowledge than Windows, but it doesn't inherently mean that it's harder. If everyone grew up using Linux we wouldn't hear about "how hard Linux is" but instead about "how hard Windows is".
At least when something is broken in Linux, it probably has a cause (usually the user) and solution, and a way to debug what happened. When something breaks in Windows you've got about 3 things you can try before the solution is to reinstall.
As for solutions, I don't know if there's a certified pathway into Linux - I think installing something like Linux Mint and just using it like a computer would go a long way towards getting you comfortable with how Linux works without forcing you to study. Once you're comfortable using the GUI, you can take a peek behind the scenes at your leisure - there is documentation everywhere for everything on Linux.
dmrzl
in reply to Yote.zip • • •Granted I was still a child, but one might think that mouse-first and colorfulness would have driven my curiosity. Instead I switched when Windows 95 arrived.
Nougat
in reply to Yote.zip • • •From the point of view of a lifetime Windows guy, I have to disagree with this. Unless you have a malware problem (where it can be exceedingly difficult for the average user to know whether they've gotten everything out), almost all failures of Windows in the modern age are the result of hardware failures. If your Windows 7 or newer computer blue screens, it's very likely a bad piece of hardware, occasionally a bad driver. The OS itself is quite solid.
In my experience and perspective, I've found the documentation for Linux things to be of varying quality and usually for an audience who already knows their way around Linux. Admittedly, I haven't had to go looking in quite a while, so maybe that landscape is different today than I am aware of - but when I was looking, I found myself quite frustrated more often than not.
Finally, with Windows, if... show more
From the point of view of a lifetime Windows guy, I have to disagree with this. Unless you have a malware problem (where it can be exceedingly difficult for the average user to know whether they've gotten everything out), almost all failures of Windows in the modern age are the result of hardware failures. If your Windows 7 or newer computer blue screens, it's very likely a bad piece of hardware, occasionally a bad driver. The OS itself is quite solid.
In my experience and perspective, I've found the documentation for Linux things to be of varying quality and usually for an audience who already knows their way around Linux. Admittedly, I haven't had to go looking in quite a while, so maybe that landscape is different today than I am aware of - but when I was looking, I found myself quite frustrated more often than not.
Finally, with Windows, if you really have to, you can pay for support incidents from Microsoft. They're not cheap, but I've found their server and server application support to be reliable. Is there something like that available to a Linux user?
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Yote.zip
in reply to Nougat • • •As for documentation, the Arch wiki (and Gentoo wiki, Debian wiki, etc. etc.) is usually a good source of information for general topics, but there's also decades of forums and stackexchange posts on various problems if you're just using a search engine. Every program also has extensive official
manpages on how to use them (example), and you can even use something liketldrto shorten the man pages into something usable right now (example). If you're willing to read documentation, everything you use on Linux probably has a manual behind it.With regards to paying for support, it's not really my wheelhouse but to my understanding that's what companies like Canonical, SUSE, and Red Hat offer.
man ffmpeg (1): ffmpeg video converter
manpages.orgRiikkaTheIcePrincess
in reply to Nougat • • •Okay, really, though? Windows is solid and good because it doesn't kernel panic much? Who's getting kernel panics out of Linux without faulty hardware or doing something risky? I think you've equivocated a bit here: either we're comparing kernel to kernel or we're comparing userland to userland. You're comparing Windows itself to Linux userland or using some kernel even freakier than the weird patched-up stuff I like to play with.
I feel like discussion of this topic is plagued by double standards and shifting goalposts :-\ Apples to oranges comparisons, refusals to even consider things just because they're 'foreign,' blaming "Linux" for things that really aren't its fault (neither in the OS sense nor in the broader sense) ... including of course (sometimes) turning the discussion into an "us versus them" thing. Software on Linux has iffy documentation! ... But the same software exists on Windows, or the equivalent(s) is(... show more
Okay, really, though? Windows is solid and good because it doesn't kernel panic much? Who's getting kernel panics out of Linux without faulty hardware or doing something risky? I think you've equivocated a bit here: either we're comparing kernel to kernel or we're comparing userland to userland. You're comparing Windows itself to Linux userland or using some kernel even freakier than the weird patched-up stuff I like to play with.
I feel like discussion of this topic is plagued by double standards and shifting goalposts :-\ Apples to oranges comparisons, refusals to even consider things just because they're 'foreign,' blaming "Linux" for things that really aren't its fault (neither in the OS sense nor in the broader sense) ... including of course (sometimes) turning the discussion into an "us versus them" thing. Software on Linux has iffy documentation! ... But the same software exists on Windows, or the equivalent(s) is(/are) just as bad. Linux kernel documentation is scary or weird! ... But no one relevant is touching it anyway and wasn't touching Windows kernel anything either. The UI is different! Yeah, so's the new one on every version of Windows you get forced into. Casual Windowsers all hate it every time but somehow "Linux" is unusable because they won't learn a new UI unless Microsoft tells them to.
You can buy (a licence to, if MS likes you lots, borrow) a copy of Windows and apparently buy support for it too... yeah okay, but that's business, not a software issue. There are enterprise distros and software packages with all' that business-type support, unless they've all vanished? That's how that stuff works, no?
I'm not demanding anyone switch and distro hop over the course of months to find a distro they love but I'd really prefer to see some more fairness discussing the matter. "Linux" is never going to be "usable on desktop" if it's always just the enemy to be spurned and derided.
(Also, sorry this got so wordy. It's not meant as a diatribe, just I feel like there's a lot to say and I'm not saying much of it 🤷♀)
TLDR: It's unfair or outright dishonest to blame an apple for not being tart enough and hide that your actual standard is "is it an orange."
moon_matter
in reply to RiikkaTheIcePrincess • • •Linux sort of just gives up and lets you shoot yourself in the foot if you really ask it to. It's up to you to then figure out how to fix things and that usually involves diving into the terminal. But even ignoring that, a lot of Linux applications have a serious UI/UX problem. I cannot count how many applications just do things like throw a config file at you even for common tasks and expect you to read a doc page in order to figure it out. I have better things to do than read yet another wall of text just to do something simple like remapping key bindings (e.g. mpv). That would be an unthinkable thing to do to a Windows user.
... show more
Linux sort of just gives up and lets you shoot yourself in the foot if you really ask it to. It's up to you to then figure out how to fix things and that usually involves diving into the terminal. But even ignoring that, a lot of Linux applications have a serious UI/UX problem. I cannot count how many applications just do things like throw a config file at you even for common tasks and expect you to read a doc page in order to figure it out. I have better things to do than read yet another wall of text just to do something simple like remapping key bindings (e.g. mpv). That would be an unthinkable thing to do to a Windows user.
Linux developers seem to want to develop software for other developers. Windows developers develop software for average people.
moon_matter
in reply to Yote.zip • • •The average person would fail on step 0 of Installing the OS. In fact 90% of the problem could be attributed to Linux distros not coming preinstalled on PCs sitting in big box stores.
All of Linux's success stories for the average user (Android, Steam Deck, Chrome book) have one thing in common. They are low cost, simple, purpose built for very specific tasks with a bunch of exclusive games/software that people want to use. We need to start looking at PCs almost like they are highly moddable game consoles. It should come with the expectation that most users don't want to leave the comfort of the walled garden.
PhillyCodeHound
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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CorrodedCranium
in reply to PhillyCodeHound • • •I used Windows and Linux while in school so it's what I got used to. Whenever I use MacOS I feel incredibly lost
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Nouveau_Burnswick
in reply to CorrodedCranium • • •My work stuff has to work. Always. Enterprise solutions are the only way I can get that without a personal army of IT guys.
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in reply to CorrodedCranium • • •like this
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Rai
in reply to Voytrekk • • •Next weekend I set up my first linux box since 2008, though, and I’m nervous. But excited.
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Undearius
in reply to PhillyCodeHound • • •sh.itjust.works - A bilingual (EN/FR) general-purpose instance located in eastern Canada! Powered by 99% renewal energy! Everyone is welcome eh.
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in reply to Undearius • • •like this
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Dubious_Fart
in reply to SimplePhysics • • •sadreality
in reply to PhillyCodeHound • • •can
in reply to sadreality • • •ashok36
in reply to PhillyCodeHound • • •Example: I picked up a old ThinkPad on ebay last year. I put Ubuntu on it and after a day or two the wifi just stops working. No error messages. Nothing. I tried digging into the settings via ui with no luck. Googling didn't help because I couldn't tell what was helpful, unhelpful, or would have been helpful but is five years out of date.
After a few days of trying to make it work, I just threw on windows and haven't had any issues since.
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flubba86
in reply to ashok36 • • •Installing Ubuntu, everything works straight out of the box, don't need to go hunting all over the internet for installer packages.
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HughJanus
in reply to flubba86 • • •Meanwhile these drivers don't even exist for Linux
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Cypher
in reply to PhillyCodeHound • • •like this
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aski3252
in reply to Cypher • • •Nobody wants to constantly fight their devices to perform simple tasks, but that's exactly the reason why I almost exclusively use linux and get incredibly annoyed when I have to use windows (for business reasons)..
Sure, linux based systems often take up more time until you find the right system for your needs and for your hardware, you will have some effort to find alternatives to some software that you might be used to and depending on what software you need, linux just won't be an option for you, but once that everything is set up, at least in my personal experience, things run a lot more consistently and expectedly in my personal experience.
Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm just lucky, but I have been using linux exclusively for about 3 years now on a desktop, multiple laptops and obviously servers. Have I experienced any issues? Yes, there were small issues from time to time, but nothing that I would not have with windows. But in... show more
Nobody wants to constantly fight their devices to perform simple tasks, but that's exactly the reason why I almost exclusively use linux and get incredibly annoyed when I have to use windows (for business reasons)..
Sure, linux based systems often take up more time until you find the right system for your needs and for your hardware, you will have some effort to find alternatives to some software that you might be used to and depending on what software you need, linux just won't be an option for you, but once that everything is set up, at least in my personal experience, things run a lot more consistently and expectedly in my personal experience.
Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm just lucky, but I have been using linux exclusively for about 3 years now on a desktop, multiple laptops and obviously servers. Have I experienced any issues? Yes, there were small issues from time to time, but nothing that I would not have with windows. But in terms of day to day operations and performing basic tasks, linux has been the superior user experience for me without a doubt.
I used to believe that linux is great for servers, and sucks for desktops and laptops, but ever since I made the switch, I have completely changed my mind. I still use windows because I have to, but the most annoying part of switching to linux was that windows has become even more annoying to use.
HughJanus
in reply to PhillyCodeHound • • •PhillyCodeHound
in reply to leninmummy • • •Fizz
in reply to leninmummy • • •BuffLettuce
in reply to leninmummy • • •I do tech support for a living. At the end of the day i just want my stuff to work. I dont want to do more work. Same reason i replaced my Ubiquiti APs with Eeros and stick with a simple hardwire topography where possible.
astronaut_sloth
in reply to BuffLettuce • • •Totally anecdotal, of course, but I just thought it was funny how our experiences were complete opposites and sent us in complete opposite directions for the same reason.
Babalas
in reply to astronaut_sloth • • •voidMainVoid
in reply to astronaut_sloth • • •When Linux breaks, it's because Linux sucks. When Windows breaks, it's because software breaks sometimes.
astronaut_sloth
in reply to voidMainVoid • • •Explaining that giving permission is much safer than just running everything as Admin did nothing. She hasn't used Linux since.
voidMainVoid
in reply to astronaut_sloth • • •astronaut_sloth
in reply to voidMainVoid • • •Melpomene
in reply to leninmummy • • •Take Pop_OS for example. For the average "I check email and surf the web" user, it works wonderfully. But most people grew on Windows or Mac so its just not what they're used to. Linux is kind of the stick shift to Windows and Mac's automatic transmission... its not hard to learn, but most folk don't choose to make the effort because they don't need to.
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CoupleOfConcerns
in reply to leninmummy • • •/home/pineapplelover
in reply to leninmummy • • •cokane_88
in reply to leninmummy • • •I've been running Mint for years, I had a box on 17 until it went end of life. My plex media server or samba server that thing giving me issues, I believe some version of Lubuntu or something that went end of life, I managed to upgrade the OS in place without wiping it but the operating system has done change ways it handles static IP addresses, the box has 3 nic ports and I haven't put much effort into figuring it out.
Tekchip
in reply to leninmummy • • •I spent the better part of a child hood and the first 10 years of an IT career learning it. Does that sound like a simple or easy system? Conversely I've spent slightly less time but an equal 10 years of an IT career learning and supporting Linux. I've only recently in the last 3 or so years started to feel like I truly grasp Linux and started using it as a daily driver on personal machines.
I now find Windows absolutely horrible to work with. All the nonsense MS foists on it's users. The inflexibility. The weird choices. The licensing nonsense.
The bottom line is not that Linux is harder. It's that Linux is different and different is scary and uncomfortable. Different is hard, not linux. People are lazy and creatures of habit. We like familiar. Few of us actually enjoy the work of learning something new that isn't easy. If we did more of us would probably be pilots or engineers or whatever hard thing to learn you want to choose.
If you're into computers and you still find it hard or constrai... show more
I spent the better part of a child hood and the first 10 years of an IT career learning it. Does that sound like a simple or easy system? Conversely I've spent slightly less time but an equal 10 years of an IT career learning and supporting Linux. I've only recently in the last 3 or so years started to feel like I truly grasp Linux and started using it as a daily driver on personal machines.
I now find Windows absolutely horrible to work with. All the nonsense MS foists on it's users. The inflexibility. The weird choices. The licensing nonsense.
The bottom line is not that Linux is harder. It's that Linux is different and different is scary and uncomfortable. Different is hard, not linux. People are lazy and creatures of habit. We like familiar. Few of us actually enjoy the work of learning something new that isn't easy. If we did more of us would probably be pilots or engineers or whatever hard thing to learn you want to choose.
If you're into computers and you still find it hard or constraining keep at it. The Ah, ha! moment is coming. There's a paradigm shift in thinking you'll hit and suddenly you'll get it. When you do you'll find it's magnificent and powerful and freeing.
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SirShanova
in reply to Tekchip • • •voidMainVoid
in reply to Tekchip • • •Tower
in reply to leninmummy • • •I ended up dual-booting Arch on my desktop, and for all the supposed complexity, if you can read a manual properly, and work through the guides on the wiki… it actually leaves you with a better understanding of how Linux is put together. So long as you're aware of what commands you're putting in.
If I were to compare it to anything, then it's the same sort of difference between building your PC for yourself (Arch), against getting something custom built (ubuntu) versus getting a prebuilt system (Windows). And you know, since migrating to Arch I haven't actually reinstalled once—people who do that are, and this may be controversial, but th... show more
I ended up dual-booting Arch on my desktop, and for all the supposed complexity, if you can read a manual properly, and work through the guides on the wiki… it actually leaves you with a better understanding of how Linux is put together. So long as you're aware of what commands you're putting in.
If I were to compare it to anything, then it's the same sort of difference between building your PC for yourself (Arch), against getting something custom built (ubuntu) versus getting a prebuilt system (Windows). And you know, since migrating to Arch I haven't actually reinstalled once—people who do that are, and this may be controversial, but they're doing it wrong. If you fuck up majorly, like running
rm -rf /then sure, you'll have to.A tip for using the terminal, when you're trying to discover things, you can use tab completion to speed things up. You don't have to type entire commands, or entire directories/filenames. Of course it won't give you any arguments for a script or program, that is what
man <command>is for, or a quick search online.Only a few weeks ago did I finally scrub Windows from my system, gaming has been relatively painless (with a few odd exceptions) since Proton has really begun to mature. But as it stands, I'm never going back—and if I really need it… I'll look into a virtual machine.
argv_minus_one
in reply to Tower • • •This is one of the things I like about Rust: its rustup program can install the latest version of Rust in my home folder. I don't need my distro to carry the latest version.
Unlike some similar things for other languages (like nvm for Node.js), rustup doesn't require me to use a specific shell, doesn't require me to use any special prefix for commands invoking Rust toolchain programs (I can just run
cargo buildandcargo runlike normal), and doesn't touch any environment variable (except adding its installation folder toPATHwhen rustup is first installed).Instead, it simply installs a wrapper binary for each of the programs in Rust's toolchain. The wrapper binary checks if there is a Rust version override for the project I'm working on, then finds and executes the appropriate version of whichever program I'm trying to run. Nice and clean, with a bare minimum of nonsense.
krellor
in reply to leninmummy • • •Even the friendliest of Linux distro don't check all those boxes. You cant get ready support from a repair shop, many of the apps are different or function differently, and it doesn't receive all the same love and attention from major third party developers as Windows does.
Most people could learn to use Linux; it's not that hard. Most people could learn to change their own oil. But for most people, it's not worth it. For most people it's not the journey, it's the destination and cars and computers are just tools to get there.
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voidMainVoid
in reply to krellor • • •You can't repair it yourself. You can't just take it to any expert to get it fixed. Only the manufacturer can fix it, because the source code (or car hood) is closed.
Kushan
in reply to voidMainVoid • • •Linux is a kit car. You can pretty much build it yourself or have one preassembled but either way you can rip any part of it out and replace any component with anything you like, entirely within your control. Most people wouldn't have the competency to build one themselves because most people don't really know how cars work but for those that do, it's the dream.
I genuinely don't believe that one approach is better than another, but I do believe that the majority of folks out there want something that "just works" and Linux is usually not that option. Not on the desktop.
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voidMainVoid
in reply to Kushan • • •Most of the distros I've tried "just work". It connects to my wifi, I can go on websites, I can read my email. What are you trying to do that isn't working?
Bandicoot_Academic
in reply to voidMainVoid • • •like this
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moon_matter
in reply to Bandicoot_Academic • • •techviator
in reply to moon_matter • • •System76 has Pop!_OS so that they can provide great out of the box experience with their computers, but they are not as big as other vendors.
A good way to really get a product like that to mass market is to make it available in general stores (Walmart, Best Buy, Etc.), the problem is that most of those customers will not understand why their system is so different and they cannot install that MS Office 2003 they have always used, or that Norton Antivirus that their cousin's son recommended to them 10 years ago that was working fine on their old computer.
And then you have the younger generations that use every other device but a computer. They'd rather do all their school and college work on their phones and tablets rather than open a laptop, if they even know how to use a computer (you'd be surprised how many don't even know how to use a computer).
moon_matter
in reply to techviator • • •WalrusDragonOnABike
in reply to voidMainVoid • • •My experience have been mostly with ubuntu-based OSes like Mint. First laptop I installed Linux on, the audio didn't just work. It didn't work at all for a while, despite trying many fixes. Otherwise it actually did work decently well. On my next laptop, it would just one day no longer boot or login for some reason or another and I'd just have to do a clean install because I didn't know how to fix it. That happened maybe every other month? On both laptops, the two-finger scroll behavior had settings to change how it behaved in the default installed software, but on Linux it was always finicky getting it to work the way I wanted.
Also installing things is a lot more annoying for stuff that require command line vs just clicking it and telling it to install.
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argv_minus_one
in reply to krellor • • •Even PC hardware isn't that risky to tinker with. It's an order of magnitude cheaper than a car; lots of people have old, obsolete, but perfectly functional PCs lying around that they'd like taken off their hands; most components are within easy reach; and the component that isn't within easy reach (the power supply unit) is pretty tough to break.
odium
in reply to krellor • • •Windows and Macs are like automatic cars, for all the people who just use it to get to a destination, it's the obvious and easiest option.
However, some people want manuals. Maybe they want it to race in the car (coding, resource intensive tasks, speed of computer, etc.). Maybe they just like the feel of a manual. Maybe they want to be able to control when the gears change more. Maybe they want to optimize the car for just one purpose. There are many reasons people might want a manual instead.
infotainment
in reply to leninmummy • • •I think the key is, operating systems are meant to exist in the background. If it's working well, you don't think about it at all.
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Dubious_Fart
in reply to TheButtonJustSpins • • •Windows 11 is what happens when you make an OS a service... and no one wants that.
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in reply to Dubious_Fart • • •like this
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Dubious_Fart
in reply to TheButtonJustSpins • • •corvus
in reply to infotainment • • •Besides that, I've been using Debian+KDE for over a decade as a daily driver and never had any such issues, It's hard for me to remember a single issue of importance.
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HughJanus
in reply to infotainment • • •People keep saying this without understanding that Android was forked with several billion dollars in funding and aimed squarely at "normal" users, and had a decade of development since then.
Most "Linux" OSes really don't bother with this. How many times has someone sent you into the Android terminal to fix a problem? Literally never. It doesn't even exist without connecting a PC. Because you don't need it.
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UnsyllabledQuickies
in reply to leninmummy • • •It's also nice to see big flagship projects like Gnome finally really taking off in terms of quality. Of cours... show more
It's also nice to see big flagship projects like Gnome finally really taking off in terms of quality. Of course, the Gnome desktop environment won't appeal to everyone aesthetically, and it's generally much more resource-intensive than Cinnamon, KDE, XFCE, LXQt, etc.; but distros like Ubuntu, Fedora, Pop!_OS, etc., look really great and work really well out of the box for most people. Same with Linux Mint. And I personally don't care for KDE, but it's another DE that's pretty solid.
Porgey
in reply to leninmummy • • •I love all 3 and I believe all 3 have their strengths and weaknesses and I’m damn glad that we have choice! (Though right now I’m rooting for Linux a bit more due to the Steam Deck bringing a lot more attention to linux gaming)
ProxyZeus
in reply to Porgey • • •Porgey likes this.
Bandicoot_Academic
in reply to Porgey • • •I never undestood that point, i hear it quite a bit but for me its always the opposite. On linux if something dosen't work i can usually see a detailed log of what went wrong. On windows its usually an error message with barly any info, stuff like "Error code: 0x72AF9B5D1" or "IRQ_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL" isn't very usefull.
Porgey
in reply to Bandicoot_Academic • • •OldFartPhil
in reply to Porgey • • •Porgey
in reply to OldFartPhil • • •Porgey
in reply to OldFartPhil • • •That aside, almost every program you can think of has a windows version and 90% of the time also a Mac version. Linux support has gotten very good over the years but it’s still not close to Windows, and that translates to better support for Windows as well
magnetosphere
in reply to leninmummy • • •When I was seriously considering installing Linux, the first issue I ran into was the lack of tutorials - or, more accurately, the bewildering array of tutorials. You couldn’t just search the term “Linux tutorial” and expect an answer that was specific enough to your case to actually be useful. There was (and is) a wide variety of distributions, each with their own unique behaviors and requirements.
If you were looking for help with the Windows or Mac OS, all you needed was the OS version number, plus maybe some basic hardware info, and most of the time you were good. With Linux, answering even the simplest question required a focused, concentrated effort, and there was still a decent chance a beginner wouldn’t have enough background knowledge to understand the answer. Generally speaking, beginner-friendly tutorials were often too broad to be useful, and specific tutor... show more
When I was seriously considering installing Linux, the first issue I ran into was the lack of tutorials - or, more accurately, the bewildering array of tutorials. You couldn’t just search the term “Linux tutorial” and expect an answer that was specific enough to your case to actually be useful. There was (and is) a wide variety of distributions, each with their own unique behaviors and requirements.
If you were looking for help with the Windows or Mac OS, all you needed was the OS version number, plus maybe some basic hardware info, and most of the time you were good. With Linux, answering even the simplest question required a focused, concentrated effort, and there was still a decent chance a beginner wouldn’t have enough background knowledge to understand the answer. Generally speaking, beginner-friendly tutorials were often too broad to be useful, and specific tutorials tended to assume knowledge that a beginner didn’t have.
Unless you had someone standing by who was willing to be your Linux Yoda, starting out was very difficult. I didn’t know such a person, so I just gave up.
Granted, this was several years ago, and things may have changed. I’m speaking from my own limited experience.
Wikimedia list article
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)SirShanova
in reply to leninmummy • • •Call me an idiot or inexperienced, but trying to transition over and do everything I can on windows doesn’t happen. When I first tried Linux in middle school, I couldn’t manage to install a single program. Software that should work doesn’t, and I still sympathize with Linus Sebastian typing in “Yes, do as I say” when all he thought he was doing was installing Steam. I’d love to transition over my daily OS to Linux, but I’m already in so deep with a million custom tools for Windows and a decade of in-depth and occupational knowledge it would be a pain to start from scratch.
voidMainVoid
in reply to SirShanova • • •I had the same experience. With Linux, you need to install programs with package managers, which are similar to the app stores on phones.
Why? What is it that you like about Linux?
SirShanova
in reply to voidMainVoid • • •NaoPb
in reply to leninmummy • • •The screen tearing issue (may be related to above)
Dependency hell.
How a program or game used to work fine on an older version but doesn't work anymore. Basically lack of backwards compatibility for software.
How you can't always do everything you want in the gui and have to use the terminal sometimes and know some of the basic commands.
How a lot of the gui programs don't have (usefull) error messages so it just leaves you confused when a program you installed doesn't want to run.
ReakDuck
in reply to leninmummy • • •I ended up using Manjaro and yeah, I somehow mamaged to fix most but not all problems caused by Manjaro. But it was also not a good distro. I ended up at Arch Linux and somehow managed to just never reinstall it because everything is actually... finally... not fucking hardcoded. It mostly has a good wiki page that explains the details.
The problem with Arch is that its not beginner friendly nor for people who just want things to work. Its a long process of installing and setting everything by yourself, with the advantage that you finally have a system that is fully tranaparent to yourself and easy to manage and understand it.
lungdart
in reply to leninmummy • • •I use a Mac for work, and it's alright, but it's got it's janky parts (key bindings, and being forced to drag and drop things for instance)
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UnfortunateShort
in reply to leninmummy • • •Unless you really convince someone that there is a good reason to put in the work, how little it may be, to get used to something new, they won't do it and complain.
RiikkaTheIcePrincess
in reply to UnfortunateShort • • •megane-kun
in reply to leninmummy • • •There's been a lot of effort to make things easier for a newb (used to Windows and all that shit) to do what they need to do in most cases. There's been all sorts of GUI-based stuff that means for the 'average' user, there's really no need for them to interact with the command line. That's all well and good until you need to do something that wasn't accounted for by the devs or contributors.
All of a sudden, you'd have not only to use the command line, you may also have to consult one of the following:
- Well-meaning, easy to understand, but ultimately unhelpfully shallow help pages (looking at you, Libre Office), or the opposite: deep, dense, and confusing (Arch) Wiki pages.
- One of the myriads of forum pages each telling the user to RTFM, "program the damned thing yourself", "go back to Windows", all of the above, or something else
... show moreThere's been a lot of effort to make things easier for a newb (used to Windows and all that shit) to do what they need to do in most cases. There's been all sorts of GUI-based stuff that means for the 'average' user, there's really no need for them to interact with the command line. That's all well and good until you need to do something that wasn't accounted for by the devs or contributors.
All of a sudden, you'd have not only to use the command line, you may also have to consult one of the following:
- Well-meaning, easy to understand, but ultimately unhelpfully shallow help pages (looking at you, Libre Office), or the opposite: deep, dense, and confusing (Arch) Wiki pages.
- One of the myriads of forum pages each telling the user to RTFM, "program the damned thing yourself", "go back to Windows", all of the above, or something else that delivers the same unhelpful message.
- Ultra-dense and technical man pages of a command that might possibly be of help.
And that's already assuming you've got a good idea of what the problem was, or what it is that you are to do. Trouble-shooting is another thing entirely. While it's true that Linux has tons of ways to make troubleshooting a lot easier, such as logs, reading through them is a skill a lot of us don't have, and can't be expected of some newb coming from Windows.To be fair to Linux though, 90% of the time, things are well and good. 9% of the time, there's a problem here and there, but you're able to resolve it with a little bit of (online) help, despite how aggravating some of that "help" might be. 1% of the time, however, Linux will really test your patience, tolerance, and overall character.
Unfortunately, it's that 10% that gives Linux its "hard to use" reputation, and the 1% gives enough scary stories for people to share.
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Fubarberry
in reply to megane-kun • • •You talk about having to fall back on the command line in Linux, but that's also true on windows without 3rd party software. I've had to use windows command line utilities to fix drives with messed up partitions and to try to repair my windows install after windows update broke it. A couple weeks ago I had to help a friend on windows do checksums using the windows command line because windows doesn't support that through the gui. Meanwhile dolphin on KDE let's you do checksums in the gui from the file properties screen.
I honestly feel like Linux isn't really that much harder or more pro... show more
You talk about having to fall back on the command line in Linux, but that's also true on windows without 3rd party software. I've had to use windows command line utilities to fix drives with messed up partitions and to try to repair my windows install after windows update broke it. A couple weeks ago I had to help a friend on windows do checksums using the windows command line because windows doesn't support that through the gui. Meanwhile dolphin on KDE let's you do checksums in the gui from the file properties screen.
I honestly feel like Linux isn't really that much harder or more prone to breaking than windows, people just have less experience with it. The smaller user base means there's a lot less help available online as well.
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Fedora
in reply to Fubarberry • • •like this
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megane-kun
in reply to Fubarberry • • •Having to fall back to the command-line, however, is generally a rare experience in Windows. I personally never have had any need to. However, that's mostly because I was never a power user in Windows, and I've never had any experience like having to fix messed-up partitions. Windows have its own set of problems too, like the registry system.
Whatever my complaints about Linux might be, it doesn't make Windows any better. I am still daily-driving Linux for a reason (or several).
The 90%, 10% and 1% thing I said at the end applies to Windows as well. It is a general rule of thumb I've mentioned to highlight that, the scary things oft-talked about Linux are a small percentage of what a user might encounter. And it's even less, probably non-existent, i... show more
Having to fall back to the command-line, however, is generally a rare experience in Windows. I personally never have had any need to. However, that's mostly because I was never a power user in Windows, and I've never had any experience like having to fix messed-up partitions. Windows have its own set of problems too, like the registry system.
Whatever my complaints about Linux might be, it doesn't make Windows any better. I am still daily-driving Linux for a reason (or several).
The 90%, 10% and 1% thing I said at the end applies to Windows as well. It is a general rule of thumb I've mentioned to highlight that, the scary things oft-talked about Linux are a small percentage of what a user might encounter. And it's even less, probably non-existent, if you stick to the "straight and narrow."
megane-kun
in reply to Fubarberry • • •I agree with this, wholeheartedly. However, I think those who use Linux are a self-selecting sort. This means, unfortunately, that the type of person who might be able to best help a "typical Linux newb coming from Windows" isn't using Linux in the first place, or have already gone long past the point of being able to be in a mindset best suited to help.
MangoPenguin
in reply to leninmummy • • •lynny
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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cybersandwich
in reply to lynny • • •What in the ever loving fuck has windows done with saving files? Saving a document on windows is unnecessarily complicated now. It obfuscates where it's actually saving. One drive documents? My documents on my computer?? Who fucking knows. And tue file explorer tree is ridiculous and unhelpful.
chi-chan~
in reply to leninmummy • • •The idea is that it's very hard to break the system, because apps are containerized, so they don't 'touch' the system, and updates take effect only on reboots.
If update is broken, it won't apply. And you can always rollback to previous state, if you don't like something.
You don't need to install stuff from the terminal, and you can install them from a GUI 'store'.
Fedora Silverblue | The Fedora Project
fedoraproject.orgchi-chan~
in reply to leninmummy • • •The idea is that it's very hard to break the system, because apps are containerized, so they don't 'touch' the system, and updates take effect only on reboots.
If update is broken, it won't apply. And you can always rollback to previous state, if you don't like something.
You don't need to install stuff from the terminal, and you can install them from a GUI 'store'.
Fedora Silverblue | The Fedora Project
fedoraproject.orgshapis
in reply to chi-chan~ • • •If you use those you have to use container workarounds, which annoy some people, myself included.
housepanther
in reply to leninmummy • • •I think newbies would be better off with Linux Mint which pretty much works out of the box. This lowers the barrier to entry. As the newbie advances in their knowledge and skill, they can begin to tinker.
It's also not easy being a newbie and getting learning support isn't always easy. A lot of us sysadmins have a tendency to forget from whence they came.
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cybersandwich
Unknown parent • • •ѕєχυαℓ ρσℓутσρє
in reply to leninmummy • • •Even after all that, the main reason, I believe, is that it's different. If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn't really a hassle. The installation process might be daunting to some people. But after that, they don't need to open a terminal ever if they don't want to. My sister is basically tech illiterate, and she's been running Mint for a few years now. Never heard any complaints. Only issue she had was when she deleted her
.configfolder. But I had set up a script that backed up dotfiles to her external drive, so it was easily fixable.People get frustrated because whenever somethi... show more
Even after all that, the main reason, I believe, is that it's different. If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn't really a hassle. The installation process might be daunting to some people. But after that, they don't need to open a terminal ever if they don't want to. My sister is basically tech illiterate, and she's been running Mint for a few years now. Never heard any complaints. Only issue she had was when she deleted her
.configfolder. But I had set up a script that backed up dotfiles to her external drive, so it was easily fixable.People get frustrated because whenever something happens on Linux, and they go online, they see all these walls of text that they need to read, and commands they need to run. But they forget that on Windows and Macs, that isn't even an option. Most of the time, you need to reset your system. Or, in the case of Macs, get it replaced. The frustration that people experience is caused by conditioning. They accept the inconveniences of Windows and Macs because they grew up with it. But since Linux is new to them, the shortcomings stick out much more.
TL;DR: For the average user, the OS doesn't matter (they should probably still use Linux for increased privacy). For the power user, unless some specific applications they need are missing, Linux is always the best choice. The frustration is mostly due to conditioning.
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shapis
in reply to ѕєχυαℓ ρσℓутσρє • • •I see this point repeated a lot, it's just not true.
For example sudo apt upgrade is broken currently on the debian live images.
Imagine you tell someone "if you want stable, go debian" they hear it and install it and literally first apt update upgrade it's borked.
There isnt a distro that isnt a hassle, that doesnt exist.
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Audacity9961
in reply to shapis • • •like this
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shapis
in reply to Audacity9961 • • •If you install debian through the live image. The apt upgrade of your installation will come out of the box broken.
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priapus
in reply to shapis • • •like this
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shapis
in reply to priapus • • •Captain_Wtv doesn't like this.
priapus
in reply to shapis • • •amanneedsamaid
in reply to shapis • • •shapis
in reply to amanneedsamaid • • •don't like this
Captain_Wtv doesn't like this.
amanneedsamaid
in reply to shapis • • •shapis
in reply to amanneedsamaid • • •amanneedsamaid
in reply to shapis • • •coldredlight
in reply to leninmummy • • •nik282000
in reply to leninmummy • • •You can stumble your way through Linux as well but it's a lot less forgiving. If something doesn't work immediately it's up to the user to search the relevant keywords and see if there is a is a fix. That can be frustrating if you aren't so great with a search engine, you don't know what the relevant terms are or you don't know how to implement a fix that is not for your exact setup.
vacuumflower
in reply to nik282000 • • •Oh no they won't. You'll just replace iOS and Android devices too often to notice, and with Windows you've gotten used to fixing broken crap.
Worked much better for me that the alternative process under Windows. May be the main reason I switched.
iopq
in reply to nik282000 • • •nik282000 likes this.
shapis
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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Reliant1087
in reply to shapis • • •My suggestion would be to start with something stable like Debian and read the manual when you want to tinker with it. Especially this:
https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
DontBreakDebian - Debian Wiki
wiki.debian.orgshapis
in reply to Reliant1087 • • •It's literally broken out of the box rn. The Debian live images are borked
Debian Bookworm (12.0): dependency issues prevent kernel upgrade (raspi-firmware issue) - Debian User Forums
forums.debian.netdon't like this
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Reliant1087
in reply to shapis • • •I would usually wait a while before, maybe until the first point release to upgrade so that there is time to iron out all the teething issues.
leninmummy
in reply to shapis • • •I am always on a rush, and when you're on a rush and something like apt not working happens, you just implement some workaround that maybe makes everything worse or is not a full solution. As others pointed, putting commands you see on Google without fully understanding them is a bad idea, and a lot of my "Linux troubleshooting experience" is "trying a bunch of Google solutions in a trial and error fashion".
For example a base issue I have with my current installation is that I firstly installed Ubuntu and then installed KDE, instead of installing Kubuntu, and the installation is kind of glitchy. I never put the time to fix the issues that maybe were not that difficult to fix, but they were unimportant and it just worked. That stuff slowly accumulates over time until the fresh install with that characteristic "this time will be different" feel lol
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TheButtonJustSpins
in reply to leninmummy • • •Right? I have no idea if the solution is right until I've done it, and it's unlikely that the first one or two I try will be it. They're all black magic commands.
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garam
in reply to shapis • • •I'm been using Fedora for many version number, and it's fun and working as it's.. Never break, unless it's driver.
AProfessional
in reply to leninmummy • • •Coreidan
in reply to leninmummy • • •Uriel-238
in reply to Coreidan • • •You guys are now seriously freaking me out. My experience has been decades of windows not mainframes with 1980s era OSes. Is all that experience going to be useless?
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abrasiveteapot
in reply to Uriel-238 • • •There's a reason it's one of the most installed desktop linuxes
Install a copy on an old machine, or setup virtual box and try a virtual machine. It even comes with a "try before you buy" mode where if you boot the install USB (you need to create it) you'll boot into a working copy of Mint so you can just give it a try and make sure it works ok on your PC.
Seriously, it's very little different to windows - everything you're likely to want to do is available in a graphical window.
https://linuxmint.com
Home - Linux Mint
linuxmint.comNathanUp
in reply to abrasiveteapot • • •NathanUp
in reply to Uriel-238 • • •Windows has layers of abstraction designed to make it difficult for you to understand how the OS is actually working - GNU/Linux does not. You can access any information, change anything you like, and almost all system config down to a low level can be done by editing plain text files. It's intimidating at first, but with some experience, config and troubleshooting is miles easier than windows because no information is hidden from you. Then again, that really is in the realm of advanced usage; for day to day computing you shouldn't have to think about a... show more
Windows has layers of abstraction designed to make it difficult for you to understand how the OS is actually working - GNU/Linux does not. You can access any information, change anything you like, and almost all system config down to a low level can be done by editing plain text files. It's intimidating at first, but with some experience, config and troubleshooting is miles easier than windows because no information is hidden from you. Then again, that really is in the realm of advanced usage; for day to day computing you shouldn't have to think about any of this.
If you're worried, try out a live USB of a beginner friendly distro like Manjaro. You can run the os off of a USB stick and get a feel for it.
TheButtonJustSpins
in reply to Coreidan • • •state_electrician
in reply to Coreidan • • •LinusWorks4Mo
in reply to leninmummy • • •Reliant1087
in reply to leninmummy • • •I found this to be invaluable when I was borking stuff all the time.
DontBreakDebian - Debian Wiki
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Cypher
Unknown parent • • •In Windows it is 5 clicks.
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shapis
Unknown parent • • •Yes, installing through official media and doing sudo apt-get upgrade, the horror.
Reddit - Dive into anything
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gobbling871
in reply to leninmummy • • •don't like this
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RiikkaTheIcePrincess
Unknown parent • • •"WARNING: don't put your hand here or this will saw your fingers off!" "haha lol who would do that"
"WARNING: don't flip this switch or this will break your computer" "omfg why puter not work!!"
Like, damn, if you're straight-up warned then maybe the real problem's in the chair :-\ Seems there's kinda no solution for that but for the user to get smarter. Can't put all of the intelligence into the software.
Also, what's the story with the immutable distro hype? peeks out from under her rock I've heard of NixOS and various critters seem to love it but I never imagined that sort of thing would become a thing (kinda thought it was just a neat little niche) let alone a big thing for 'inexperienced' sorts.
Skyrmir
in reply to leninmummy • • •Linux is amazing for it's ability to be customized. That comes with a cost in on ramping new users. Hell, I'm an old user, and what I know is half useless because it's so old. The end result is that I use linux to run a raspberry pi that shares out instrument data. And that's all it does. It's not a desktop, it's a tool that does a thing. It does that one thing reasonably well, and I don't have to screw with it. Because I never update it, never connect it to the internet, never install new things. Until I make a new one to do a new thing.
Honestly I have no idea why anyone would want a linux desktop for daily use. It's nice to have an environment to set up the device for what it's going to be doing. But beyond that, it's usually not even going to have a monitor attached to it.
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amanneedsamaid
in reply to Skyrmir • • •I like to own my computer.
Uriel-238
in reply to amanneedsamaid • • •I hope I'm not fucking myself when I try to make the switch, but when the first response to it's got problems is don't look a gift horse in the mouth then yeah, it makes me a bit worried I'm going to be left out in the elements on my own by a community with the attitude of COD gamers.
amanneedsamaid
in reply to Uriel-238 • • •I think the 'toxicity' of the linux community is, in my experience anyways, totally overblown. Yes, if you post a question you might get a few snarky, entitled responses, but thats the same for any community. For every troll there are many more people willing to help you out.
For an easy start on Linux, I would recommend a "beginner" distro such as:
Example: ()
- Linux Mint (Cinnamon)
- Ubuntu (GNOME)
- Kubuntu (KDE)
I think new users are often intimidated by how much there is to learn about Linux, but I assure you all of that will come with time. Some people also fear using the terminal, but I would strongly suggest... show moreI think the 'toxicity' of the linux community is, in my experience anyways, totally overblown. Yes, if you post a question you might get a few snarky, entitled responses, but thats the same for any community. For every troll there are many more people willing to help you out.
For an easy start on Linux, I would recommend a "beginner" distro such as:
Example: ()
- Linux Mint (Cinnamon)
- Ubuntu (GNOME)
- Kubuntu (KDE)
I think new users are often intimidated by how much there is to learn about Linux, but I assure you all of that will come with time. Some people also fear using the terminal, but I would strongly suggest learning how to at least:- Update your system
- Install / remove / search for packages
from the terminal.I hope that answers some questions, if not or I just confused you more, ask as many questions of me as you need.
cefadroxilthranduil
in reply to leninmummy • • •I still keep track of what I install and what I change on my system. That helps a lot too.
iopq
in reply to cefadroxilthranduil • • •cefadroxilthranduil likes this.
TheButtonJustSpins
Unknown parent • • •BCsven
in reply to leninmummy • • •gunpachi
in reply to BCsven • • •On a different note - For people who like tinkering, nixos can also be a great option, it also allows rollbacks but doesn't use BTRFS snapshots out of the box like opensuse.
BCsven
in reply to gunpachi • • •someacnt
in reply to leninmummy • • •Nowadays, I use my own hand-rolled DE. It still refuses to break on me. Guess I am really lucky or something.
tiwenty
in reply to someacnt • • •Voytrekk
in reply to someacnt • • •snek_boi
in reply to someacnt • • •BaumGeist
in reply to leninmummy • • •It worked fine for my purposes, though it took getting used to, but it would wake itself up from sleep after a few minutes. I would have to shut it off at night so that I wouldn't wake up in a panic as an eerie light emanated through the room from my closed laptop. I did my best searching for the problem, but could never find a solution that worked; in retrospect, I probably just didn't have the language to adequately describe the problem.
Nothing about the GUI was well-documented to the degree that CLI apps were. If I needed to make any changes, there would be like one grainy video on youtube that showed what apps to open and buttons to click and failed to solve my problem, but a dozen Stack Exchange articles telling me exactly what to do via the terminal.
I remember going off on some friends online when they tried to convince me Linux and the terminal were superior. I ranted about ho... show more
It worked fine for my purposes, though it took getting used to, but it would wake itself up from sleep after a few minutes. I would have to shut it off at night so that I wouldn't wake up in a panic as an eerie light emanated through the room from my closed laptop. I did my best searching for the problem, but could never find a solution that worked; in retrospect, I probably just didn't have the language to adequately describe the problem.
Nothing about the GUI was well-documented to the degree that CLI apps were. If I needed to make any changes, there would be like one grainy video on youtube that showed what apps to open and buttons to click and failed to solve my problem, but a dozen Stack Exchange articles telling me exactly what to do via the terminal.
I remember going off on some friends online when they tried to convince me Linux and the terminal were superior. I ranted about how this stupid sleep issue was indicative of larger, more annoying problems that drove potential users away. I raged about how hostile to users this esoteric nerds-only UX is. I cried about Windows could be better for everyone if the most computer-adept people would stop jumping ship for mediocre OSes.
I met another friend who used Arch (btw) within a year from that hissy fit, and she fixed my laptop within minutes. Using a CLI app nonetheless. I grumbled angrily to myself.
A few years later and everyone's home all the time for some reason, and I get the wild idea that I'm going to be a(n ethical) hacker for whatever reason. I then proceeded to install Kali on a VM and the rest is history.
The point being that some people labor under the misguided belief that technology should conform to the users, and because we were mostly raised on Windows or Mac, we develop the misconception that those interfaces are "intuitive" (solely because we learned them during the best time in our life to pick up new skills). Then you try to move to linux for whatever reason and everything works differently and the process is jarring and noticeably requires the user conforming to the technology--i.e. changing bad habits learned from other OSes to fit the new one. The lucky few of us go on to learn many other OSes and start to see beyond the specifics to the abstract ideas similar to all of them, then it doesn't matter if you have to work with iOS or TempleOS, you understand the basics of how it all fits together.
TL;DR Category theorists must be the least frustrated people alive
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ѕєχυαℓ ρσℓутσρє
in reply to BaumGeist • • •snek_boi
in reply to BaumGeist • • •BaumGeist
in reply to snek_boi • • •It's a freeing paradigm shift once you realize that your understanding is broad enough that you can transfer your knowledge from one OS to another, therefore the joke is that since Category Theorists have the broadest knowledge, they must deal with the least amount of frustrations learning a new system
Obsession
in reply to leninmummy • • •Linux works just as good as windows for 98% of my uses cases. And for the 2% that it doesnt, I can probably figure out how to get it to work or an alternative.
But honestly, I usually just don't want to anymore. After working 8 hours, I'm very seldom in the mood to do more debugging, so I switch to Windows more and more frequently.
If this is my experience as someone who understands it, most normies will just fuck off the moment the first program they want to run doesn't.
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SomaWolfVO
in reply to Obsession • • •Uli
in reply to Obsession • • •I thought about dual booting, but it would make multitasking nearly impossible. So, instead, I'm using Linux whenever possible and I have a Windows VM I can enter at a moment's notice or hibernate if I need the resources. And then there's the MacBook, but we don't talk about the MacBook.
Snowplow8861
in reply to Obsession • • •I actually boot to Linux when I'm not supposed to work since otherwise I just have anxiety or dread and then I'll open teams, outlook, ncentral, prtg...
Also why I enjoy my switch. Can't really do projects on it like I can on Linux, but I also am switched off from work.
Aceticon
in reply to Obsession • • •I've been doing Linux since the early days when Slackware fitted a "few" floppy disks and you had to configure the low level CRT display timings on a text file to get X-windows to work, and through my career have used Linux abundantly, at some point even designing distributed high performance software systems on top of it for Investment Banks.
Nowadays I just don't have the patience to solve stupid problems that are only there because some moron decided that THEY are the ones that after 2 bloody decades of it working fine trully have the perfect way (the kind of dunning-krugger level software design expertise which is "oh so common" at the mid-point of one's software development career and regularly produces amongst others "yet another programming language were all the old lessons about efficiency of the whole software development cycle and maintenability have been forgotten") for something that's been done well enough for years, and decided to reinvent it, so now instead of one well integrated, well documented solution there are these piec... show more
I've been doing Linux since the early days when Slackware fitted a "few" floppy disks and you had to configure the low level CRT display timings on a text file to get X-windows to work, and through my career have used Linux abundantly, at some point even designing distributed high performance software systems on top of it for Investment Banks.
Nowadays I just don't have the patience to solve stupid problems that are only there because some moron decided that THEY are the ones that after 2 bloody decades of it working fine trully have the perfect way (the kind of dunning-krugger level software design expertise which is "oh so common" at the mid-point of one's software development career and regularly produces amongst others "yet another programming language were all the old lessons about efficiency of the whole software development cycle and maintenability have been forgotten") for something that's been done well enough for years, and decided to reinvent it, so now instead of one well integrated, well documented solution there are these pieces of masturbatory-"brilliance" barelly fitting together with documentation that doesn't even match it properly.
Just recently I got a ton of headaches merely getting language and keyboard configuration working properly in Armbian because there was zero explanation associated with the choices and their implications, thousands of combinations (99.99% of which are not used or even exists) of keyboard configurations were ordered alphabetically on almost-arbitrary names across 2 tables, with no emphasis on "commonly used" (clearly every user is supposed to be an expert on the ins and outs of keyboard layouts) and there were multiple tools, most of which didn't work (some immediatelly due to missing directories, others failing after a couple of minutes, others only affecting X) and whatever documentation was there (online and offline) didn't actually match.
(It's funny how the "genious" never seems to extend to creating good documentation or even proper integration testing)
Don't get me wrong: I see Software Architecture-level rookie mistakes all the time in the design of software systems, frameworks and libraries in the for-profit sector ("Hi Google!!!"), but they seem to actually more frequent in Open Source because the barrier for entry for reinventing the wheel (again!) is often just convincing a handful of people with an equally low level of expertise.
(anyways, rant over)
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joey
in reply to Obsession • • •like this
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All_I_Can
in reply to leninmummy • • •I absolutely love Linux but this kind of thing happen quite regularly to be honest.
arthurpizza
in reply to leninmummy • • •warmaster
in reply to arthurpizza • • •Mandy
in reply to leninmummy • • •anything that cam.go wrong will go.wrong and its certainly exlusive to Linux
DniMam
in reply to leninmummy • • •- some friend's printer doesn't work with my linux.
- I remember having a very hard time understanding optimus (nvidia-intel) and making it work.
- when you use flatpak some thing doesn't work because it's sealed.
- when a distro remove a very important package...and i have to find it, reinstall it
- some graphical issue due to the various DE, or an app that haven't updated its graphical scheme.
So most of time, i follow the forum because things aren't working as expected. I lose an incredible amount of time doing that but i love it.Linux as desktop did lot progress and i believe immutable OS with flatpak/snap will solve the fragmentation issue.
warmaster
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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flashgnash
in reply to warmaster • • •Can't be expected to go full windows where literally every little buried system feature has a GUI on it
Think anyone who wants to use Linux for their non-techy day to day for the most part can now, I think only problem is with moderately techy people who want to do weird stuff with their machines but don't know Linux well enough
ScreaminOctopus
in reply to warmaster • • •warmaster
in reply to ScreaminOctopus • • •- you can't manage advanced power management profiles
- you can't manage devices
- you can't manage services
- you can't manage firewall in GNOME
- Device Security is almost useless
- There's no versioned backup system that does both user files & system snapshots integrated into the Desktop Environment and the DE settings app.
- There's no DCONF equivalent for KDE (that I know of), the need for DCONF shouldn't even exist.
- No integrated, easy to use & performant remote desktop software (VNC is not enough, RDP in GNOME just doesn't work, Sunshine is a pain to setup)
I'm an Arch user, so I'll talk about it below:- There's no real GUI for Pacman, Pamac is known for horrible stuff. Alternatives are very inferior.
- There's no GUI for system updates integrated into the settings app
3rd party crap:
- Nvidia (nuff said)
- Flatpak (convenient, but it's still a mess)
Props to:
- AMD, I love you guys.
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ScreaminOctopus
in reply to warmaster • • •sponge likes this.
Tar_alcaran
Unknown parent • • •You can set macro's under Mouse and Keyboard center (though only in win11, welcome to 1995 Microsoft!)
You can set a keyboard shortcut for a program under a shortcut's properties (since at least a couple of editions ago).
philluminati
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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TheButtonJustSpins
in reply to philluminati • • •like this
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philluminati
in reply to TheButtonJustSpins • • •It's just an attitude thing that some people's egos are hurt when Linux confuses them.
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deleted
in reply to leninmummy • • •I just installed Debian 12 on my Surface Go 2. The camera isn’t working, touch is broken, casting screen not working, on screen keyboard isn’t working.
Mind you I’m a full stack developer and i have a linux server at home so I have decent technical knowledge and a little bit of time.
vaidooryam
in reply to deleted • • •Also touchscreen is not a very common feature even in laptops let alone linux. The more your hardware deviates the higher the chances of breakage. Try live booting a bunch of distros and try if the same breaks everywhere.
deleted
in reply to vaidooryam • • •The touch is working, however, it’ll behave differently with each element. Sometimes would scroll and sometimes select.
I spent 2 days making intel iGPU hardware acceleration working btw.
Even though Windows works flawlessly, Id prefer broken Linux over it.
joey
in reply to deleted • • •deleted
in reply to joey • • •Any recommendations?
It’ll be a tablet for school stuff like ms teams and light browsing.
Touch friendly GUI is a plus.
joey
in reply to deleted • • •From what I've heard Debian is rock solid on the servers. Not so much for a desktop use. Since you're on a unusual device i might have suggested manjaro, endeavour and the other arch based oses. But that's close to playing with fire. It's easy to break but you'll get the latest software on the edge. Manjaro even seemed to check for the proper drivers when I used it long ago. Pop os is great for nvidia users.
There was a GitHub link somewhere above. Check your device. See what works with the mainline kernel and what doesn't. You could hopefully look for patches for stuff that someone have put out there. If not you're out of luck for that feature with your device. Ideally, you'd be the... show more
From what I've heard Debian is rock solid on the servers. Not so much for a desktop use. Since you're on a unusual device i might have suggested manjaro, endeavour and the other arch based oses. But that's close to playing with fire. It's easy to break but you'll get the latest software on the edge. Manjaro even seemed to check for the proper drivers when I used it long ago. Pop os is great for nvidia users.
There was a GitHub link somewhere above. Check your device. See what works with the mainline kernel and what doesn't. You could hopefully look for patches for stuff that someone have put out there. If not you're out of luck for that feature with your device. Ideally, you'd be the one working on it. But if you don't have the expertise, you could raise issues and hope someone finds it important enough to work on. Using a rolling distro, you'd get the feature as soon as it is mainlined to the kernel.
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deleted
in reply to joey • • •necrxfagivs
in reply to deleted • • •Maybe you have a better experience with other distros as Fedora (or its daughter Nobara) or Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu but imo better).
EDIT: What are your spec? I'm sure the problems you're experiencing are related to your hardware and their drivers being closed source.
deleted
in reply to necrxfagivs • • •No, I’ve only tried Debian. I’ve installed linux firmware packages and added non-free in sources. Also, installed surface firmware from github.
I spent 2 days making intel iGPU hardware acceleration working btw.
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necrxfagivs
in reply to deleted • • •deleted
in reply to necrxfagivs • • •I got familiar with Debian and it's terminal commands so I think I might stick with Debian for now.
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NathanUp
in reply to necrxfagivs • • •deleted
in reply to NathanUp • • •I did upgrade from 11 though. I don’t know if that would make a difference.
learningduck
in reply to deleted • • •My laptop has a 4k resolution, but my monitor is 1080p. The monitor will look zoomed in and I had to adjust scaling until it look fine on the monitor.
deleted
in reply to learningduck • • •However, its a 10” screen so 100% is too small 200% is too big. So I compromised and choose KDE 125% and now somethings are small some are big.
lambda
in reply to deleted • • •GitHub - linux-surface/linux-surface: Linux Kernel for Surface Devices
GitHubdeleted
in reply to lambda • • •deleted
in reply to lambda • • •I thought it’s sorta baked theme.
xohshoo
in reply to deleted • • •priapus
in reply to xohshoo • • •priapus
in reply to deleted • • •Also note, more stable distros will be on older kernels, meaning older and fewer drivers. It's possible that the drivers you need are in the kernel, but not the one Debian is shipping.
deleted
in reply to priapus • • •Ill look for the best distro that supports surface hardware better.
To be honest, even with all of these issues, linux is far ahead in terms of speed and reliability.
lambda
in reply to deleted • • •deleted
in reply to lambda • • •I followed the instructions and the camera showed up.
Also Gnome 43 supports touch out of the box.
Now my setup looks great!
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priapus
in reply to deleted • • •Installation and Setup
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deleted
in reply to priapus • • •I just installed it
NathanUp
in reply to deleted • • •Avid Amoeba
in reply to cybersandwich • • •Avid Amoeba
in reply to leninmummy • • •With that I have this advice for the newer users:
- Use Ubuntu LTS. Almost everything else has an extra level of complexity or several that aren't obvious when you first start using them. Yes even user-friendly Ubuntu derivatives. Ubuntu LTS has an extremely large test base so defects are few. It's also stable so the number of defects generally declines over time for a given release.
- Use the canonical sources of information for Ubuntu. Askubuntu.com, the U
... show moreWith that I have this advice for the newer users:
- Use Ubuntu LTS. Almost everything else has an extra level of complexity or several that aren't obvious when you first start using them. Yes even user-friendly Ubuntu derivatives. Ubuntu LTS has an extremely large test base so defects are few. It's also stable so the number of defects generally declines over time for a given release.
- Use the canonical sources of information for Ubuntu. Askubuntu.com, the Ubuntu wiki, the Ubuntu forums, man pages. The Debian wiki can be useful too. Arch'es wiki becomes useful when you begin to know what you're doing so you can translate what's there to Ubuntu.
- Don't use YouTube for that or random sites that have SEOd themselves to the top of Google. Or ChatGPT.
- The first question you should ask when something breaks is "What did I do wrong?". Trace your steps. Answer it. Fix it and don't do it again. E.g. something that should work without sudo doesn't, so you run it with sudo. A true classic.
I know many here won't like me suggesting Ubuntu, but the reality is that throwing new users elsewhere is often a disservice to them. Even Debian, which I use too. The proliferation of "Ubuntu bad" across the newer slivers of the community has been just "bad" for those new users. There's a lot of us that can help support new users but we can't do that in places where the "Just try X distro instead" comments outnumber us 10 to 1. In addition there's so much misinformation thrown around as fact that we just can't compete. The D-K level is too damn high.jpgSource: I've used Linux for 19-years and professionally since 2012, for more use cases than I can count.
khuldraeseth
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •Rentlar
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •With Windows I'm fighting against my computer and Microsoft's bullshittery.
With Linux I'm fighting against my own incompetence.
Avid Amoeba
in reply to Rentlar • • •Rentlar likes this.
sibloure
in reply to leninmummy • • •I used to have the same problem where after tinkering, my system would eventually break and I would need to reinstall Linux. I absolutely love Fedora Silverblue but there are others like VanillaOS for an Ubuntu-based variety.
What is Silverblue? - Fedora Magazine
Tomáš Popela (Fedora Project)s20
in reply to sibloure • • •Meanwhile, Canonical is working on an immutable version of desktop Ubuntu that will hopefully show up next year.
selawdivad
in reply to leninmummy • • •I've found the linux hardware database to be invaluable getting new systems configured.
The site is overwhelming at first, but the easy path is to just click the big 'Probe your computer' button and follow the instructions.
Once you've done a probe, you'll get a web-page with a listing of all your computer's hardware and the support status. Even better, you get links to additional drivers or kernel modules required to get stuff working which isn't supported out of the box.
Linux Hardware Database
linux-hardware.orgbizdelnick
in reply to leninmummy • • •Maybe Linux is not good enough for you, maybe you are not good enough for Linux. Anyway, don't constrain yourself, use software that you are comfortable with.
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bazmatazable
in reply to leninmummy • • •Not one single MacBook owner had to install their OS and configure drivers etc.
None of my family, friends or coworkers had to install Windows on any of their PCs (I know that some people do but not in any of my social circles).
Consider Pop_OS from System76 or Tuxedo OS from Tuxedo Computers, they have identical user experiences as Mac or PC:
Step 1: Buy computer
Step 2: Turn on
Step 3: Answer some one time setup questions
Step 4: Get on with your life
If you have the opportunity to build your own PC and fresh install an OS from scratch then when you come across a problem that you don't have experience with you will be understandably frustrated.
Specifically Windows has the advantage that hardware manufactures always make drivers for Windows. If your hardware is supported then the Linux OS installation is not very different, but when the hardware is not plug-and-play then config... show more
Not one single MacBook owner had to install their OS and configure drivers etc.
None of my family, friends or coworkers had to install Windows on any of their PCs (I know that some people do but not in any of my social circles).
Consider Pop_OS from System76 or Tuxedo OS from Tuxedo Computers, they have identical user experiences as Mac or PC:
Step 1: Buy computer
Step 2: Turn on
Step 3: Answer some one time setup questions
Step 4: Get on with your life
If you have the opportunity to build your own PC and fresh install an OS from scratch then when you come across a problem that you don't have experience with you will be understandably frustrated.
Specifically Windows has the advantage that hardware manufactures always make drivers for Windows. If your hardware is supported then the Linux OS installation is not very different, but when the hardware is not plug-and-play then configuring Linux becomes its own kind of frustration torture.
TL;DR
Get your computer with the OS already installed, then Linux is no more frustrating than a Mac or PC.
Install Linux yourself and your mileage may vary.
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MrApples
in reply to bazmatazable • • •HughJanus
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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NathanUp
in reply to HughJanus • • •But yea, you're totally right: the userbase can be toxic AF, and there's no one place you can go to learn the basics you really ought to know.
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HughJanus
in reply to NathanUp • • •But it borks itself. It doesn't require my assistance.
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rocketeer8015
in reply to HughJanus • • •Personally I blame half on users for picking the wrong distro(not suited for beginners) and half on the linux community giving poor advice(use the terminal). Not everyone has the time or inclination to become a power user and if people wouldn’t be so thickheaded and recommending the same problematic distros over and over to these people it wouldn’t be such a mess.
I have a 80 year old neighbour whose old windows laptop was a mess and who was open to trying a new OS(because he couldn’t operate windows either anyway). I setup a MicroOS system for him, put a taskbar extension on it and showed him how to install software from gnome-software(which only has flatpaks). ZERO problems in half a year. He doesn’t have to do anything nor learn anything. He happily installed some card games, reads the few websites he follows and that’s it.... show more
Personally I blame half on users for picking the wrong distro(not suited for beginners) and half on the linux community giving poor advice(use the terminal). Not everyone has the time or inclination to become a power user and if people wouldn’t be so thickheaded and recommending the same problematic distros over and over to these people it wouldn’t be such a mess.
I have a 80 year old neighbour whose old windows laptop was a mess and who was open to trying a new OS(because he couldn’t operate windows either anyway). I setup a MicroOS system for him, put a taskbar extension on it and showed him how to install software from gnome-software(which only has flatpaks). ZERO problems in half a year. He doesn’t have to do anything nor learn anything. He happily installed some card games, reads the few websites he follows and that’s it.
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HughJanus
in reply to rocketeer8015 • • •Yep...it does.
Yes that's what I'm referring to.
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rocketeer8015
in reply to HughJanus • • •like this
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NathanUp
in reply to rocketeer8015 • • •For ages I blamed GNU/Linux for breaking when I was unknowingly causing issues. These days, I don't fix what isn't broken, and if I can't help myself, I make sure I understand what I'm doing, write down any changes I make, and ensure I have a snapshot ready in case things don't work out.
GNU/Linux may not exclusively be for advanced users anymore, but system customization still is.
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HughJanus
in reply to NathanUp • • •Yeah that's not true. There is no such thing as an "unborkable" system. There are, however, systems that aren't often borked by their developers, and systems that are easy or intuitive to fix when they do become borked, or systems that quickly ship a fix when they do become "borked" (this is Windows BTW).
The implication that any "borked" Linux install was somehow self-inflicted by the user is ridiculous.
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VonVoelksen
in reply to HughJanus • • •t realise what you did and why it borked your system in the end. This happens to Windows-Users too. I ended up reinstalling so many Windows machines and the user always told me they didnt do anything. I use Linux for about three years now and had to reinstall several times, because I made mistakes I couldn`t identify as mistakes at that moment. Sometimes Linux is complicated and you have to search for a solution. If you would have used Linux your whole life an switched to Windows, your experience would be very similar.like this
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Dariusmiles2123
in reply to VonVoelksen • • •Still, I love Linux and don’t picture myself going back to windows for my home computer. I just think we shouldn’t say Linux is perfect and the rest is shit.
s20
in reply to HughJanus • • •That said, I think a lot of problems new users have with Linux really do come down to foolish mistakes, an unwillingness to read manuals, expecting Linux to work like Windows/Mac, or a combination of the above.
Not all problems, but many.
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HughJanus
in reply to s20 • • •like this
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joey
in reply to leninmummy • • •Edit: Op I th... show more
Edit: Op I think I went a bit off topic keeping other comments in mind. All I can offer you is the frustration is inevitable if you want to do edge cases. Stick to gui options. Try to understand commands before jumping to cli. Use a container or vm to do the inevitable trial and error learning. Try to pick up on how best to phrase your problem so that your search engine can give you the relevant articles and not spam.
NathanUp
in reply to leninmummy • • •Besides that, always be sure you're following tutorials for your specific distro, and a recent version at that. In my early days, I borked my system many times by pasting commands I didn't understand meant for other distros or older versions of the distro I was running.
On software, I would recommend trying to find FLOSS replacements wherever possible. People often sell Linux as being able to run most windows software, and while that's true, you'll almost always have a better experience after taking the time to learn a FLOSS tool written for the platform. Even with proprietary native applications, companies often consider GNU/Linux an afterthought and the experience suffers. If you're using KDE Plasma, for example, try finding a KDE app at apps.kde.org.
For a distro billed as beginner friendly, I always had issues with Ubuntu too. The most trouble free distros I've ever used were M... show more
Besides that, always be sure you're following tutorials for your specific distro, and a recent version at that. In my early days, I borked my system many times by pasting commands I didn't understand meant for other distros or older versions of the distro I was running.
On software, I would recommend trying to find FLOSS replacements wherever possible. People often sell Linux as being able to run most windows software, and while that's true, you'll almost always have a better experience after taking the time to learn a FLOSS tool written for the platform. Even with proprietary native applications, companies often consider GNU/Linux an afterthought and the experience suffers. If you're using KDE Plasma, for example, try finding a KDE app at apps.kde.org.
For a distro billed as beginner friendly, I always had issues with Ubuntu too. The most trouble free distros I've ever used were Manjaro (which I still use to this day on machines I want to just work out of the box - ignore the hate), and Mint. Manjaro comes with an official KDE Plasma verson too.
priapus
in reply to leninmummy • • •It's hard to say why your experience was frustrating without many more details.
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Tippon
in reply to priapus • • •The biggest annoyance to me is how small the border around windows is. On Windows, I can grab anywhere around the edge of a window and resize it, including in both directions from the corners. In Linux, I need an electron microscope to find the edges, and the hand of god to find a corner.
If I want to paste something in Windows, it's ctrl v. If I want to paste in Linux, it's ctrl v. Unless it's the terminal, which is shift, ctrl v. Or edge cases where it's shift and insert.
They don't tend to be major problems, but they break your workflow, and that makes them feel a lot worse.
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priapus
in reply to Tippon • • •lambda
in reply to Tippon • • •This is a problem with the DE that you use and not linux in general. Gnome and KDE for example don't have this issue. I'm guessing you're using xfce?, since I had the same issue with it.
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Tippon
in reply to lambda • • •It's not a major issue, but it's enough to break my train of thought, which is annoying.
Voytrekk
in reply to Tippon • • •ctrl+c and Ctrl+v do not work in windows CMD/powershell windows either.
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Nalivai
in reply to leninmummy • • •With other OS you kind of stuck. Either your problem has a solution someone already thought of, or there is nothing to be done.
As an example, my colleague and me bought the same bluetooth headset, and it didn't work out of the box neither with his windows machine, nor with my Linux. He did the usual reinstall drivers - reboot - reconnect - google shit routine, didn't find a solution, and returned the headset. I did my routine, found the patch for bt-pipewire app, applied it and it finally worked. Later he said "your Linux is stupid, you always have to do some complicated stuff with it, and my windows just works", but I couldn't hear him over the sound of music I was enjoying with... show more
With other OS you kind of stuck. Either your problem has a solution someone already thought of, or there is nothing to be done.
As an example, my colleague and me bought the same bluetooth headset, and it didn't work out of the box neither with his windows machine, nor with my Linux. He did the usual reinstall drivers - reboot - reconnect - google shit routine, didn't find a solution, and returned the headset. I did my routine, found the patch for bt-pipewire app, applied it and it finally worked. Later he said "your Linux is stupid, you always have to do some complicated stuff with it, and my windows just works", but I couldn't hear him over the sound of music I was enjoying with my new working headset.
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priapus
in reply to shapis • • •Bjaldr
in reply to leninmummy • • •InternetCitizen2
in reply to leninmummy • • •Like no one would say that Windows sucks because it cannot run Final Cut Pro, but that standard gets put on Linux all the time.
As far as intuitive that has to do with context. Going from Windows to macOS or in reverse is also going to take some getting used to.
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Freeman
in reply to InternetCitizen2 • • •Mac by comparison makes things incredibly easy, often as the detriment to customization options. But they have really made things like security very well integrated and behind the scenes. You can do Full Disk Encryption in a fairly secure manner with a simple check box. On windows its a bit tougher, normally more of a click through session where they try and make it easier, but give you options to retain the keys yourself at your own risk.
linux...its fairly easy during install. Post installl....basically not possible and for some you have to run through a guide like this: https://mutschler.dev/linux/pop-os-btrfs-22-04/
Thats straight up not digestable for 99% of the world.
Similarly mac makes backups a goddam breeze. Windows is a bit harder but theres a lot of developed software to knock it out thats very good and relatively simple. Linux....well see the guide above as well.
There a... show more
Mac by comparison makes things incredibly easy, often as the detriment to customization options. But they have really made things like security very well integrated and behind the scenes. You can do Full Disk Encryption in a fairly secure manner with a simple check box. On windows its a bit tougher, normally more of a click through session where they try and make it easier, but give you options to retain the keys yourself at your own risk.
linux...its fairly easy during install. Post installl....basically not possible and for some you have to run through a guide like this: https://mutschler.dev/linux/pop-os-btrfs-22-04/
Thats straight up not digestable for 99% of the world.
Similarly mac makes backups a goddam breeze. Windows is a bit harder but theres a lot of developed software to knock it out thats very good and relatively simple. Linux....well see the guide above as well.
There are places macOS falls short. For example docking stations are a fucking mess and tied to the processor version in new iterations. Ie: You need a M2-pro for 2+ screens. M2 ultra for higher resolutions iirc and a M1/M2 standard can only do a single screen. Theres also Thunderbolt considerations. Its so goddam convoluted we bought dell displaylink docs for most at work.
There are also places windows does well. AD and group policy in a corporate environment are awesome. Simply unrivaled. For someone that plays video games. Windows excels at video games, egpus are legit hotpluggable, drivers are unrivaled there. Linux is getting better than ever but even still. Fired up steam on my Pop_OS and cant get games to launch, even when they show as usabled in protondb.
Linux is unrivaled with options and customization though. But not a whole lot else on the desktop space. On the server side, they are pretty goddam solid from a stability and performance standpoint.
Pop!_OS 22.04: installation guide with btrfs, luks encryption and auto snapshots with timeshift | mutschler.dev
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GustavoM
in reply to leninmummy • • •fugepe
in reply to leninmummy • • •fugepe
in reply to fugepe • • •GnuLinuxDude
Unknown parent • • •You can accomplish this with something like Debian stable and Flatpaks. OK, but now you have to explain these concepts to people, too 😆. It works great but it's not quite user friendly. Ubuntu gets dunked on a lot for Snaps but I think they are actually the one mainstream distro that is trying to make Snaps as transparent for users as possible, thereby achieving the goal of separating the core operating system from user applications. Though I still prefer Flatpaks.
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GnuLinuxDude
in reply to leninmummy • • •But the real problem I think is that Linux distros also never had Microsoft's budget to develop, assemble, test, and release the operating system + software suite. The fact that Linux is as good as it is in spite of that is really something special.
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eth0p
in reply to GnuLinuxDude • • •It wasn't until university that we even had an option to use Linux on school computers, and that's only because they have a big CS program. They're also heavily locked-down Ubuntu instances that re-image the drive on boot, so it's not like we could tinker much or learn how to install anything.
Unfortunately—at least in North America—you really have to go out of your way to learn how to do things in Linux. That's just something most people don't have the time for, and there's not much incentive driving people to switch.
A small side note: I'm pretty thankful for Valve and the Steam Deck. I feel like it's been doing a pretty good job teaching people how to approach Linux.
By going for a polished console-like experience with game mode by default, people are shown that Linux isn't a big, scary mish-mash of... show more
It wasn't until university that we even had an option to use Linux on school computers, and that's only because they have a big CS program. They're also heavily locked-down Ubuntu instances that re-image the drive on boot, so it's not like we could tinker much or learn how to install anything.
Unfortunately—at least in North America—you really have to go out of your way to learn how to do things in Linux. That's just something most people don't have the time for, and there's not much incentive driving people to switch.
A small side note: I'm pretty thankful for Valve and the Steam Deck. I feel like it's been doing a pretty good job teaching people how to approach Linux.
By going for a polished console-like experience with game mode by default, people are shown that Linux isn't a big, scary mish-mash of terminal windows and obscure FOSS programs without a consistent design language. And by also making it possible to enter a desktop environment and plug in a keyboard and mouse, people can* explore a more conventional Linux graphical environment if they're comfortable trying that.
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kebabslob
in reply to GnuLinuxDude • • •like this
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Holzkohlen
in reply to kebabslob • • •kebabslob likes this.
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GnuLinuxDude
Unknown parent • • •One key difference is that Snap is basically only on Ubuntu, and Snaps can also bundle CLI applications or server software. Flatpaks are currently really meant for desktop applications.
In both cases you can modify the permissions of the the programs they bundle sort of like how you might expect on iOS or Android. That is to say you can restrict their access to the file system, the network, or other things. So, as an example, I can run a proprietary program as a Flatpak but ensure it cannot access my Bluetooth if for some reason I feel that need.
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shapis
in reply to priapus • • •syklone
in reply to leninmummy • • •QuazarOmega
Unknown parent • • •I suggest you try one of the Fedora immutable spins (Silverblue, Kinoite, Sericea) or Vanilla OS, though I would hold off from it until Orchid comes out.
If you want to go all in you can use NixOS, but it takes a lot of reading
Fedora Silverblue | The Fedora Project
fedoraproject.orgQuazarOmega
in reply to leninmummy • • •That's common when you start adding random PPAs, running some commands without understanding (we all do 👀) and whatnot, but you can save yourself from reinstalling over and over by using an immutable distribution so at any point you will know what changed in your system and if it breaks you can just roll back to the previous working point and either fix your mistake or wait for a fix from upstream when an issue happens there (this year there were a few kinda major hiccups on Fedora for example).
I suggest you try one of the Fedora immutable spins (Silverblue, Kinoite, Sericea) or Vanilla OS, though I would hold off from it until Orchid comes out.
If you want to go all in you can use NixOS, but it takes a lot of reading
Fedora Silverblue | The Fedora Project
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plumbercraic
in reply to QuazarOmega • • •QuazarOmega
in reply to plumbercraic • • •mhz
Unknown parent • • •like this
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Captain Aggravated
in reply to leninmummy • • •Some are pretty legitimate, like the lack of Adobe or Autodesk support on Linux, which means a lot of people just 100% cannot participate in their industry using Linux. It's borderline illegal to use Linux if you're a mechanical or civil engineer; Solidworks and MATLAB are pretty much regulatory requirements; you'd probably lose your engineering license if you turned in a drawing made in FreeCAD. In the art space, tell a publishers you drew something in Inkscape and watch their personality leak out their ears. Everyone hates Adobe, but glory to Adobe.
There are also legitimate culture shocks; there's this LTT video where they had iJustine on, and Linus and Justine swapped platforms, he on a Mac, she on a PC, and they were given basic tasks like "install Slack. Take a screenshot. Paste that screenshot in a Word Processing document. Save it as a PDF. Send that PDF to James in a Slack message. Uninstall Slack." Justine immediately started looking around the back of the monitor for USB ports, rapidly found that a fresh install of vanilla... show more
Some are pretty legitimate, like the lack of Adobe or Autodesk support on Linux, which means a lot of people just 100% cannot participate in their industry using Linux. It's borderline illegal to use Linux if you're a mechanical or civil engineer; Solidworks and MATLAB are pretty much regulatory requirements; you'd probably lose your engineering license if you turned in a drawing made in FreeCAD. In the art space, tell a publishers you drew something in Inkscape and watch their personality leak out their ears. Everyone hates Adobe, but glory to Adobe.
There are also legitimate culture shocks; there's this LTT video where they had iJustine on, and Linus and Justine swapped platforms, he on a Mac, she on a PC, and they were given basic tasks like "install Slack. Take a screenshot. Paste that screenshot in a Word Processing document. Save it as a PDF. Send that PDF to James in a Slack message. Uninstall Slack." Justine immediately started looking around the back of the monitor for USB ports, rapidly found that a fresh install of vanilla Windows doesn't (or didn't at the time) come with a word processor that could save documents as a PDF, Linus immediately went to the web browser instead of the app store...They did similar stunts with their Linux challenge later on, though I'd kinda argue about the tasks they were set to do (such as "sign" a document, which Linus started to do cryptologically but didn't have any keys enrolled because who the fuck does, and Luke just...copy/pasted an image of his handwriting?) But anyway. Linux is different than Windows to use, and even a VERY windows-like DE like Cinnamon is going to have differences that will feel foreign. I remember tripping over "shortcuts" being "links or launchers depending on what you want to do."
There's also the fact that Microsoft has done a world class job at making the average normie hate and fear the command line interface. Because universally, when you see a cmd prompt appear in Windows, it is a bad thing. That hate gets transferred to Linux, where we do routinely use the terminal because while it can be a little arcane, with a little bit of learning you can do some powerful stuff. But, because people have been so conditioned to hate the CLI by Microsoft, you get exchanges like this:
"Hey I'm trying out Pop!_OS because you nerds keep saying it's good, and my laptop can connect to the internet with ethernet but not Wi-Fi, what's up with that?"
"Well let's see, could you open a terminal and type sudo lshw -C network, and then copy-paste what it says here for me to look at?"
"NO!!!11!! NEVAR!!!! How DARE you suggest I use a computer by doing anything other than pointing at little pictures?! The indignity! It's current year!!"
Finally, before I hit the character limit for this post, there's just a reputation around Linux. I've had this happen more than once, someone will ask to use my computer to look something up on the internet. "Sure." They find the Firefox icon on the quicklaunch bar just fine, it pops open, they're doing fine, then they notice the color scheme and icons are a little different and they ask "uhh, what version of Windows is this?" And I say "It's Linux Mint." And they lift their hands off the keyboard with the same gesture as if I just told them my cute furry pet in their lap is actually a tarantula. They have it in their head that Linux is deliberately hard to use because it's for computer nerds--they think all Linux is Suckless--and because they're not computer nerds, they can't use Linux. So the second they know it's Linux, they "can't" use it.
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knowncarbage
in reply to leninmummy • • •Freedom lets you break stuff.
If, like Windows or MacOSyou just use it as intended by official support, it should be fine. If you start just adding everything and anything from anyone you're gonna break stuff.
Other stuff is made to be idiot proof, Linux is not.
mhz
in reply to GnuLinuxDude • • •1- install flatpak which should install a pluging for gui Package manager automatically.
2- add flathub repo.
3- Configure your gui package manager to default to flathub
4- enjoy installing rhe latest software from flathub without even needing root password (except for Opensuse TW)
Captain Aggravated
in reply to leninmummy • • •What DE are you using? Gnome?
leninmummy
in reply to Captain Aggravated • • •As others pointed, doing stuff in a rush and blindly using guides and pasting commands makes everything more difficult. No matter how robust or good the UI is lol
Captain Aggravated
in reply to leninmummy • • •Cypher
Unknown parent • • •Yes there are valid criticisms of Windows. No that does not give you a pass to attack people who use it, they have made their own choice.
One device, which you admit works with the correct drivers, doesn’t remotely compare to a glaring flaw with audio that I can find first mentioned in 2002 still impacting Linux today.
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Dafuqs
in reply to leninmummy • • •For non-tech users, I feel like some parts are still pretty hard to diagnose. If an issue arises you mostly have to touch the command line and I can understand people being scared of it, having to edit plain text files, or type and enter commands that aren't descriptive, much less finding the right command by guessing. It certainly improved, with GUIs being available for most stuff, but if you want something specific, is still feels pretty rough on the edges sometimes, from the eyes of a normal user.
If you mostly need your basic apps, like browser, some office apps or a music player it works great, though.
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Jelloeater
in reply to Dafuqs • • •plumbercraic
in reply to Jelloeater • • •like this
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u/lukmly013 (lemmy.sdf.org)
in reply to plumbercraic • • •plumbercraic
in reply to u/lukmly013 (lemmy.sdf.org) • • •like this
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TheButtonJustSpins
Unknown parent • • •Omega_Jimes
in reply to leninmummy • • •I've tried to convince a couple people over the last few years to convert, and their issues always baffle me, until my brother tried for a week and I finally understood. It's just unlearned everything they've been doing for years, to do things a different way.
jemorgan
in reply to leninmummy • • •One use case that easily makes Linux way less frustrating is of developing software, especially in low-level languages. If you’re writing and debugging software, reading documentation is something you do every day, which makes it a lot easier. Most of the issues where people break their systems, don’t know how it happened, and can’t figure out how to fix it are because they default to copying bash commands from a Wordpress blog from 2007 instead of actually reading the documentation for their system. If you’re developing software, a log of the software you’re installing and using is open source, so you benefit tremendously from a package manager that’s baked into the OS.
If your use case is anything like that, Windows in particular is way more frustrating to use IMO.
If instead your use case is using a web browser and a collection of proprietary closed-source GUI tools, th... show more
One use case that easily makes Linux way less frustrating is of developing software, especially in low-level languages. If you’re writing and debugging software, reading documentation is something you do every day, which makes it a lot easier. Most of the issues where people break their systems, don’t know how it happened, and can’t figure out how to fix it are because they default to copying bash commands from a Wordpress blog from 2007 instead of actually reading the documentation for their system. If you’re developing software, a log of the software you’re installing and using is open source, so you benefit tremendously from a package manager that’s baked into the OS.
If your use case is anything like that, Windows in particular is way more frustrating to use IMO.
If instead your use case is using a web browser and a collection of proprietary closed-source GUI tools, then most of the benefits that you’re getting using Linux are more ephemeral. You get the benefit of using a free and open source OS, not being tied into something that built to spy on you, not supporting companies that use copyrights to limit the free access of information and tools, etc. Those benefits are great and super important, and I would still recommend Linux if you’re up to it, but they definitely don’t make computing any easier.
If your use case is anything like the second one, you’re probably used to following online guides without needing to understand how each step works, and you’re probably used to expecting that software will make it hard for you to break it in a meaningful way. Both of those things directly contribute to making Linux might be frustrating to use at times for you.
If you’re in the second category, the best advice is to get used to going to the official webpage for the applications you use and actually reading the docs. When you run into a problem, try to find information about it the docs. It’s fine to use guides or other resources, but whenever you do, try to look up the docs for the commands that you’re using and actually understand what you’re doing. RTFM is a thing for a reason haha.
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MiloSquirrel
in reply to leninmummy • • •For a lot of people windows just works how they want it, so when they're convinced to switch by a friend/family member/youtuber they now have to relearn what was incredibly easy for them, which absolutely will cause frustrations regardless.
And a lot of Linux dudes get really defensive and elitist when you ask them to explain or help, like screaming that you're afraid of the command line when you've just never needed to use it before. So the initial learning curve is rough, to het more or less what you had before(For an avg user)
Like. I'm sorry, but having an issue keeping you from using your pc, and only getting advice to read the documentation of the distro, when you could have just kept windows, is going to frustrate people
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DharkStare
in reply to MiloSquirrel • • •People like convenience and will almost always go with the more convenient option even if it's not the best option.
Until the majority of issues can be solved using point and click (and help forums show that method over command line), Linux will always lag behind Mac and Windows.
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vortexal
in reply to leninmummy • • •- There are a lot of games that I've played (mainly from Itch) that offer a Linux version, but that version isn't tested and often times has mismatched libraries. In one case, they forgot to bundle the Linux version with the game's assets and only included the executable.
- A lot of Linux installation guides just tell you that you can just install the distro from it's LiveCD. Maybe this is the case for some computers but every computer that I've installed Linux onto required some extra steps. I've always had to disable secure boot and then re-enable it after installing but I've never seen a guide mention that, just some random answers on askubuntu that suggested it. They also never mention that you should use the LiveCD to make sure that everything is worki
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Captain Aggravated
Unknown parent • • •Three or four independent projects: Okay, here you go!
Problem: Every major distro has its own unique package manager, and there's three different incompatible universal ones and because one of them is made in-house at Canonical none of the three are supported out of the box on every distro.
Arch users: muh AUR.
Foresight
in reply to leninmummy • • •dcat likes this.
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kebabslob
in reply to Foresight • • •dcat doesn't like this.
QuazarOmega
Unknown parent • • •Aside from that, when you're as experienced as you, you generally don't end up breaking your system anyway, if one really wanted I think the real good thing to do regardless of distro would be using one of the few packaging solutions that are siloed from the rest system
MuchPineapples
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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ancientweasel
in reply to MuchPineapples • • •which $PROGRAMin a terminal tells you.like this
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Mikina
in reply to leninmummy • • •However, I wasn't able to switch from Windows. I've always ran into issues that I just wasn't able to solve.
You want your work email and Teams? Too bad, Teams are no longer build for Linux, but you can use this shitty webapp or whatever it was. Want your mail? Sure, there are apps that can connect to exchange, but too bad - your domain policies don't allow you to use them, so you're stuck with O365 on web.
Ok, web it is. Now let's connect to VPN so I can start working. Oh, too bad, your company uses Checkpoint mobile, which dropped client support for Linux. And while it looks like there is some obscure way how to get it working through IPSEC or whatever, I never managed to get it working - and I think it also requires the VPN server to actually enable support for it, which I'm sure our company doesn't have. And then there's also the fact that we just use Word and Excel for most of what we do.
Well then, I guess I'm not going to be able to switch to Linux for work. But I ca... show more
However, I wasn't able to switch from Windows. I've always ran into issues that I just wasn't able to solve.
You want your work email and Teams? Too bad, Teams are no longer build for Linux, but you can use this shitty webapp or whatever it was. Want your mail? Sure, there are apps that can connect to exchange, but too bad - your domain policies don't allow you to use them, so you're stuck with O365 on web.
Ok, web it is. Now let's connect to VPN so I can start working. Oh, too bad, your company uses Checkpoint mobile, which dropped client support for Linux. And while it looks like there is some obscure way how to get it working through IPSEC or whatever, I never managed to get it working - and I think it also requires the VPN server to actually enable support for it, which I'm sure our company doesn't have. And then there's also the fact that we just use Word and Excel for most of what we do.
Well then, I guess I'm not going to be able to switch to Linux for work. But I can at least use it for my PC at home, where I just need to be able to develop Unity games, and the rest should be all right.
After spending few hours trying to get my project to build, finding out that you just can't use certain kind of video formats on Unity on Linux, and running into issues with both the Hub and the Editor just throwing random UI errors, I've just given up. Especially since there are things like multipass or WSL, and I only ever need linux for terminal anyway, where I never had any issues.
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_danny
in reply to Mikina • • •I got to the point where if I booted up my computer to quickly do a task and I got a cryptic error message that I had to put into Google to fix one more time, I'm not wasn't going to troubleshoot it, I was going to throw my PC out the window.
I love the ideas behind Linux, and I love having open source alternatives to windows and Mac, and I've donated to a couple projects.... but based on my last attempt (1-2 years ago) Linux is still far from being a daily driver alternative on personal computers for the average person.
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Cypher
Unknown parent • • •Yes you clearly meant that in an endearing sort of way.
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wada
in reply to leninmummy • • •It's not that hard actually but you need a lot of free time and motivation to keep learning. When I was a student I was deep on Archlinux + DWM / AwesomeWM + lots of console applications now that I am a functional working men I just stick to a stable distro (Currently Debian Testing) I think the secret is have good hardware compatibility and if you want to try some weird configuration just use a VM first or just use a immutable distro.
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ᗪᗩᗰᑎ
in reply to wada • • •nik282000
in reply to ᗪᗩᗰᑎ • • •like this
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Piers
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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Kwalla
in reply to Piers • • •A few distros have really made the user experience pretty damn simple. I personally love EndeavourOS as it seems to be the best of all worlds for me personally. But for any of my non techy friends, I suggest or personally set them up with Mint more often than not Mint is a far better experience overall than Ubuntu in my opinion. But I greatly prefer the package manager (yay) in EndeavourOS.
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in reply to Kwalla • • •like this
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eshep
in reply to leninmummy • •like this
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SkepticElliptic
in reply to leninmummy • • •There's also a bunch of elitists trolls that attack people for asking questions.
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Axellon
in reply to leninmummy • • •This man page is thirty pages long and has in depth descriptions of all fifty switches in alphabetical order, but all i want is an example on how to do a very simple, common thing with it. And of course, all commands have their own syntax (of course windows isn’t any better, outside of Powershell).
Don’t curl to bash, it’s dangerous. But heaven help the adventurer that tries to do the install manually. And building from the source? Hah!
The registry gets a ton of shit, and yes, it can be opaque and confusing, but hundreds of text files in hundreds of random directories (that might be a different place on a different distro), all with their own syntax, isn’t necessarily all that more intuitive.
You want this to work differently? Then code... show more
This man page is thirty pages long and has in depth descriptions of all fifty switches in alphabetical order, but all i want is an example on how to do a very simple, common thing with it. And of course, all commands have their own syntax (of course windows isn’t any better, outside of Powershell).
Don’t curl to bash, it’s dangerous. But heaven help the adventurer that tries to do the install manually. And building from the source? Hah!
The registry gets a ton of shit, and yes, it can be opaque and confusing, but hundreds of text files in hundreds of random directories (that might be a different place on a different distro), all with their own syntax, isn’t necessarily all that more intuitive.
You want this to work differently? Then code a fix yourself! What do you mean you’re not a programmer?
I had multiple Ubuntu installs stop updating because the installer by default made the /boot partition (IIRC) something like 100MB. Do a couple updates and that gets filled up with unused files, and then apt craps itself. And this wasn’t all too long ago - well after the point it was supposed to be the district for the everyman.
Like you, I want to like it more, but it’s never smooth sailing. Granted, a lot of that is familiarity with Windows (and believe me, many curses have been thrown MS’s way), but it always seems to turn into a struggle.
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Squibbles
in reply to Axellon • • •If you have been using a particular distro and are familiar with the subsystems then the new version comes out and you just have to learn about the few changes in the release but for someone new it adds a whole second layer of complexity to have to learn the whole new OS in addition to trying to blindly figure out how the old system worked, what's different in the new system and how you adapt instructions from the old one to the new one, or if you should just give up and try to find a different guide that will work.
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patatahooligan
in reply to Axellon • • •Yes
manis intended to be a manual so it's understandably bad at being a cheatsheet. Check outtldrortealdeer. They are similar but I foundtealdeerto be much faster for me. Also try a shell with better completion than bash, likezshorfish. Having better completion will sometimes sidestep the need for a cheatsheet altogether.You can curl the file normally, inspect, and then run it with bash. All the safety issues of running stuff you found online still apply (is the source trusted?), but you don't get the issues that arise specifically from piping curl to bash. But most applications don't need you to
curl | bashin the first time because of package managers.toikpi likes this.
andruid
in reply to GnuLinuxDude • • •GnuLinuxDude likes this.
dmar
Unknown parent • • •Not really..
On Linux if it breaks, I can often dig into the source and quickly figure out what's broken.
On Windows, I'm usually shit outta luck. Gotta trawl through tons of messy forums and bullshit SEO-optimised blogspam sites to find a solution.
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socsa
in reply to leninmummy • • •Linux feels simple to you because you likey have both education and experienced with computer systems. However, the interconnected world is not that difficult to understand if you have the opportunity to understand it. This privilege absolutely makes everyone else in the world who does not have that opportunity or desire feel shockingly inept on technology issues.
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ohlaph
in reply to leninmummy • • •If we want more people on Linux, we need to dumb it down a lot.
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eshep
in reply to ohlaph • •The answer to that though is not a general dumbing down of linux, that ruins every reason most of us have always been here. The right answer is to have a (multiple) distribution that can be easily installed by any completely technologically ignorant person and offers the simple appliance experience. It would be even better if this same distribution could be installed on any computer be it in a closet, under a desk, on a shelf, in a vehicle, or in a pocket to offer a somewhat seamless user experience. As a bonus, these different devices should offer the ability to connect/interact with each other in a simple manner from the common user's perspective.
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felis_magnetus
in reply to ohlaph • • •like this
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eshep
in reply to felis_magnetus • •I'd argue that at the moment, we don't really have anything that can fill this need. I think that maybe some combination of android-style UX with a Nix-like stoutness and configurability could be the right direction.
Linux reshared this.
Holzkohlen
in reply to ohlaph • • •desconectado
in reply to ohlaph • • •Linux based OS like android got mass adopted because you don't even need to open a shell once and your whole hardware works out of the shelf. That's not the experience with Linux.
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ᗪᗩᗰᑎ
Unknown parent • • •[0](if not hundreds more if you count their spinoffs). See the list of available packages at flathub[1]. Read more about Flatpak in general here[2].[0]https://flathub.org/setup[1]https://flathub.org/[2]https://flatpak.org/Setup Flathub | Flathub
Flathubdan1101
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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eshep
in reply to dan1101 • •like this
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dan1101
in reply to eshep • • •I did mean arcane but archaic could fit too. I don't really have a problem with old as long as it's good, but not that many people out of general population understand what Linux commands there are and how to fully utilize them.
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eshep
in reply to dan1101 • •Linux reshared this.
KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX
in reply to dan1101 • • •Tell me for what Windows "distro" you can do the same?
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JGWentworth
in reply to KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX • • •like this
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KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX
in reply to JGWentworth • • •lol wut CHANCES ARE?
Chances are I can't find the Windows 10 kernel source code on github.
Prove me wrong.
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rivalary
in reply to KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX • • •meat_popsicle likes this.
KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX
in reply to rivalary • • •This person I am responding to has no idea what a kernel is. That said, he or she should not be giving some questionably authoritative answer (which is clearly wrong.)
So are you going to post that Windows kernel source code? I'll hold my breath.
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FatherOfHoodoo
in reply to dmar • • •And for the 99.9% of humanity for whom that is either impossible, or a dreadful slog,
While this^ is a practical option...
This^ is a practical optionof hu
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KIM_JONG_JUICEBOX
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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huginn
in reply to leninmummy • • •That's it. That's all that keeps me back. I can't play Destiny 2 on linux and I'm an addict with a need.
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nik282000
in reply to dmar • • •FlyingPiisami likes this.
felis_magnetus
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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nik282000
in reply to felis_magnetus • • •Since then I prefer it just because I can run it on decades old hardware, it's consistent between different versions of the same Distro (W7 through to W11 gives me anxiety), and I don't have to worry about a hardware change invalidating a product key so I have to re-buy my damned OS. Shit, yeah, it's an ideological thing.
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Double_A
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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CouncilOfFriends
in reply to leninmummy • • •dylanTheDeveloper
in reply to leninmummy • • •RagingToad
in reply to dylanTheDeveloper • • •For me, I'm very tech savvy, clicking around in GUIs hoping to find something, spelunking in event manager trying to find an error, is so much harder than in Linux.
This is very personal, I know. How do you debug and fix issues in Windows again? 😀 It has been a while.
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antihero
in reply to RagingToad • • •RagingToad likes this.
RagingToad
in reply to antihero • • •But, yes, it's also conveys very little useful information other than "I crashed, I hope you saved whatever you were doing".
(But I've had crashes in Linux too, probably because of Nvidia)
dylanTheDeveloper
in reply to RagingToad • • •Uluganda
in reply to leninmummy • • •I installed Linux on my coworkers, friends and families, and nothing break. Heck, I even gave my friend Arch Linux. I told them to only install thing from the Store and never touch command line without talking to me first. It's been 6 months.
Linux for average people is been there. It's ready. OnlyOffice is just like Ms. Office but Open Source. If you are willing to learn, LibreOffice is far better than Ms. Office. Linux supports all browser. KdenLive and Krita work better in Linux. GNOME is way easier to navigate than Windows, with superior gesture and beauty Windows could only dream of.
Windows has its perk, but saying Linux is hard is no longer true.
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xkforce
in reply to Uluganda • • •So yeah if you set things up for someone of course its going to be easy to use. It SHOULD be easy to use after 30 years of development. But that initial setup process is often not user friendly.
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iopq
in reply to Uluganda • • •like this
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yhnavein
in reply to Uluganda • • •like this
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Uluganda
in reply to yhnavein • • •And if you are trying to install AMD or Intel proprietary driver. Why? Just..., why?
Gerryflap
in reply to Uluganda • • •like this
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Hjulkula
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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Ividapp Avidapp എല്ലായിടത്തും!
in reply to Hjulkula • • •like this
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hungryish
in reply to Hjulkula • • •Hjulkula likes this.
philluminati
in reply to leninmummy • • •Maybe you would benefit by reading a PAPER copy of a book about Linux and the especially command line. Linux is a very command line oriented system so maybe trying to tackle some of the struggles head on will help you unlock
aptany other tools.Peruvia
in reply to leninmummy • • •aski3252
in reply to leninmummy • • •I used to use Ubuntu for a long time and had a similar experience where there were constantly annoying issues. I have since distrohopped around and ended up with fedora, which even though it is a more cutting edge distro, the experience has been a lot smoother and more stable, even compared to windows.
I mean any OS takes time until you get fully into it and I would say Linux does take maybe a little more effort simply because there are more options in terms of pretty much everything. First, you need to be familiar with the concept of having different distros and be familiar with the differences between distros. Then you need to actually figure out how to install a new OS, which can be tricky to most people who are not that familiar with IT.
Another thing is that an experience with an OS can depend largely based on what hardware you are using. That's why apple strict... show more
I used to use Ubuntu for a long time and had a similar experience where there were constantly annoying issues. I have since distrohopped around and ended up with fedora, which even though it is a more cutting edge distro, the experience has been a lot smoother and more stable, even compared to windows.
I mean any OS takes time until you get fully into it and I would say Linux does take maybe a little more effort simply because there are more options in terms of pretty much everything. First, you need to be familiar with the concept of having different distros and be familiar with the differences between distros. Then you need to actually figure out how to install a new OS, which can be tricky to most people who are not that familiar with IT.
Another thing is that an experience with an OS can depend largely based on what hardware you are using. That's why apple strictly controls the hardware on which their OS can run on. Microsoft has also started restricting this slightly. Linux goes the complete opposite direction by trying to allow running linux on any possible system.
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Treczoks
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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Hello Hotel
in reply to Treczoks • • •- its tree mounting scheme
/foo/mountpointFolderon/dev/disk/by-label/C drivewhere symlink resolves to/dev/sdcrather than a linear oneC:/on*internal concept*rather than a::: spoiler (more...)
in Linux's model, the mount system defines the source to be any file with the specified filesystem data in it. The Mountpoint (target) can be any (usually empty for safety) folder.
:::
- symlinks on windows are discouraged so heavily. I looked it up and still don't know how to make them. on Linux, its easy,
::: spoiler how to
do
ln -s filePath pathToNewLinkor in a GUI file manager, right click find "new" submenu click item with a link... show more- its tree mounting scheme
/foo/mountpointFolderon/dev/disk/by-label/C drivewhere symlink resolves to/dev/sdcrather than a linear oneC:/on*internal concept*rather than a::: spoiler (more...)
in Linux's model, the mount system defines the source to be any file with the specified filesystem data in it. The Mountpoint (target) can be any (usually empty for safety) folder.
:::
- symlinks on windows are discouraged so heavily. I looked it up and still don't know how to make them. on Linux, its easy,
::: spoiler how to
do
ln -s filePath pathToNewLinkor in a GUI file manager, right click find "new" submenu click item with a link as the icon and a name likw "link",:::
it makes a thing that acts almost just like the thing its referencing. in a GUI file manager, you can navigate into a symlink where reference is
.and not get anywhere to great confusion. on windows this odd support for but insistence on not using a "basic feature" is mind boggling.- linux with things like Fuse (Filesystem in userspace) allows literally anything and everything to be a filesystem, more non real folders to make a new user's head spin.
all of these things are about having flexible references and easy access to computer resources, On windows I find myself wondering why I cant open this text based file real quick without needing to go online and get some software that will specifically handle it.::: spoiler (more...)
virtual filesystems that have files and folders that are actually this OS construct that's stored in RAM or a view of folders not representational of how their literally on disk. (Fuse filesystem reading and proxying your multimedia organizing it into folders by artists)
:::
there are very few APIs you can touch in an ELF program (think EXE for Linux) that you cant with a Bash script and relevant programs. I get on windows and all the EXEs have have even more cryptic names than linux and no help menu or offical e-book and are at the mercy of the internee's answer (whats lsass.exe). it all makes me go, screw it! if I want to access the Raw C drive to do a non off the shelf task, I need to make it myself which means learning their programming framework.
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patatahooligan
Unknown parent • • •Google how to set your windows clock to UTC. You can maybe do the reverse and set linux to localtime, but I find it much cleaner that the system clock is in UTC as it's an objective and stable standard, unlike localtime which can change with daylight savings or if your move.
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antihero
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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PseudoSpock
in reply to antihero • • •aski3252
in reply to Cypher • • •However, I did have various issues with audio and multiple screens on windows as well, I would say even more frequently. However, on windows those issues were generally resolved after a restart, on linux I actually had to do some troubleshooting.
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yhnavein
in reply to leninmummy • • •Everything went to shit with one of the updates. It destroyed the graphics drivers and I wasn't able to reinstall it correctly. Shortly after they released the new big version of elementaryOS which was just bad. Looked bad, worse user experience. It was also slower. And even small update killed my graphic drivers. Again. That was it. Back to Windows. Few years after that I moved to MacOS and now it's stable, looking nice and I am confident that the os will work pretty much the same on the next day.
It's crucial when you have a freelance work. I just can't imagine waking up to see that my Linux machine decided to fuck me up on a that particular day. Nope.
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Ew0
in reply to yhnavein • • •Quacksalber
in reply to leninmummy • • •ConcreteCheer likes this.
TechnologyClassroom
in reply to Quacksalber • • •In the GNU/Linux ecosystem, nearly every program has a config file. Sometimes each line has detailed comments in plain text around it you what the option does with examples of what it could be. If the documentation doesn't exist, you can dig deeper and see what that option does in the source which is usually documented as well. Programming experience is not required to search for text and read comments. Such documentation is not equivalent in Windows.
PseudoSpock
in reply to Quacksalber • • •don't like this
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zygo_histo_morpheus
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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hare_ware
in reply to leninmummy • • •LiamSora
Unknown parent • • •like this
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Obi
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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aski3252
Unknown parent • • •Ideally, clients would get shipped with linux of course, but at the moment, that's hardly an option. There could also be value in having clients shipped with different distros installed.
For this reason I would never buy an apple device again. However, I do see the value of having a super stable and controlled environment where it is super hard for users to fuck things up.
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monobot
in reply to leninmummy • • •As soon as something unexpected happens or something expected doesn't happen, they drop it.
While Windows is like that for me and my needs, for them it is Linux.
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in reply to monobot • • •don't like this
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monobot
in reply to PseudoSpock • • •PseudoSpock
in reply to monobot • • •Ensign_Crab doesn't like this.
JackbyDev
in reply to leninmummy • • •People have been using X since that age so anything different is going to be jarring. Just the smallest roadblocks can put people off of stuff. Why bother learning something new when the old thing works?
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PseudoSpock
in reply to JackbyDev • • •don't like this
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JackbyDev
in reply to PseudoSpock • • •ocassionallyaduck likes this.
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in reply to JackbyDev • • •JackbyDev doesn't like this.
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in reply to PseudoSpock • • •xylltch likes this.
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PseudoSpock
in reply to JackbyDev • • •JackbyDev doesn't like this.
JackbyDev
in reply to PseudoSpock • • •PseudoSpock
in reply to JackbyDev • • •BaumGeist
in reply to JackbyDev • • •When I was younger, I would have read this and agreed: people are resistent to change, and that holds us back.
Now, I read this and agree: why do we worry so much about having the newest and shiniest when what we have still works? Seems like a waste of time and resources
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TechnologyClassroom
Unknown parent • • •like this
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denny
in reply to leninmummy • • •IT class back in college taught a wee bit of Linux. I was one of the few who were interested and did what the teacher said, the rest played Hearthstone. Linux Mint is what intrigued me since high school. A wonderful OS that brings life to laptops too slow for Windows 7. But I'm still the cozy and unbothered person who sticks to Windows on their main machine. I just want to relax after a good days work and play Forza Horizon 5. However I do enjoy my Linux laptops that won't run red hot just because of Windows Update, Defender, telemetry and other garbage. My love&hate about Linux is that there are so many distros to choose from. There were times when x is better than y and it was(still is) the devils circle: distro hopp... show more
IT class back in college taught a wee bit of Linux. I was one of the few who were interested and did what the teacher said, the rest played Hearthstone. Linux Mint is what intrigued me since high school. A wonderful OS that brings life to laptops too slow for Windows 7. But I'm still the cozy and unbothered person who sticks to Windows on their main machine. I just want to relax after a good days work and play Forza Horizon 5. However I do enjoy my Linux laptops that won't run red hot just because of Windows Update, Defender, telemetry and other garbage. My love&hate about Linux is that there are so many distros to choose from. There were times when x is better than y and it was(still is) the devils circle: distro hopping. Today I'm cool with Ubuntu derivatives like Mint and Pop, along with Fedora and Suse, since a decade of having at least one Linux PC I still don't find joy in advanced stuff like Arch. Anyway use the thing you are comfy with and don't let anyone judge you, live your life. ❤
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Ew0
in reply to denny • • •like this
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Square Singer
in reply to denny • • •For Windows, if you are the local family admin, if someone asks you how to solve some issue, there are only two possible (and quite similar) options (Win10 and 11). You can either point them to the right location in the settings if you know it by heart, or you just fire up your PC and tell them each step.
If it's Linux, you first start with the question "What distro are you using?" and then they answer something you maybe have never heard.
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🧋 Teh C Peng Siu Dai
in reply to leninmummy • • •Having multiple buttons to click and have what you want done almost all the time is much easier in comparison.
Source: was once a beginner, although it does get easier.
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joey
in reply to leninmummy • • •@deleted@lemmy.world
I guess they're linking the same repo. However they talk about their positive experience with linux on surface pro
https://lemm.ee/post/1451648
Edit: someone mentioned that nobara has the patches incorporated in their release. Might be worth checking out
deleted
in reply to joey • • •joey likes this.
joey
in reply to deleted • • •deleted likes this.
TheQuantumPhysicist
in reply to leninmummy • • •Whether windows or mac, I plug my machine to the docking station, and it just works.
With Linux, every day a different problem. Out of the blue, screens just stop working. Resolutions change. Every restart different behavior. Zero consistency.
I'm not 17 anymore... I don't have the time to keep tweaking. I need to be productive.
So what do I do? I SSH to a Linux machine whose desktop environment I don't wanna see, and code remotely. Most productive setting.
You asked. Here's the answer.
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Rassilonian Legate
in reply to TheQuantumPhysicist • • •like this
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Square Singer
in reply to Rassilonian Legate • • •like this
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BOB_DROP_TABLES
in reply to Rassilonian Legate • • •All that with 2 laptops from different brands using different docstations, one with XFCE on Ubuntu and the other with KDE on Arch.
I got it mostly working, but it's still troublesome
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rocketeer8015
in reply to BOB_DROP_TABLES • • •like this
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in reply to rocketeer8015 • • •asexualchangeling likes this.
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in reply to TheQuantumPhysicist • • •like this
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superminerJG
Unknown parent • • •File an issue to libfprint, your fingerprint reader probably isn't supported yet.
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h14h
in reply to leninmummy • • •I think this is true, but I think there's another thing that irks people:
Software Compatibility
The general public primarily interacts with their computers through established applications that commonly aren't available on Linux w/o intimidating work around (if at all).
A noob who switches to Linux isn't going to know the limitations up front, and the second they decide they want to learn Adobe Premier for work, they're kinda fucked. They'll either spend hours/days of online research trying to figure out if it's even possible, or they'll ask for help only to have someone tell them they're wrong for trying and to use some FOSS alternative because Adobe is an evil megacorp.
It's a recipe for frustration.
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Square Singer
in reply to h14h • • •megane-kun likes this.
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megane-kun
in reply to h14h • • •I eventually found my way to the AUR repository (because btw, I used Manjaro at the time—go figure what's wrong in this scenario, lol!) and even ended up on some random repos for similar models. There were a lot of conflicting advice: like using a driver for a similar printer, or making my own package for my printer model.
I ended up deciding that I somehow have to make a package for my printer model, and having asked around for advice on how to do this, I was met with "why even brother with that printer brand?!" And I was like, "because that's what's available to me! And I don't have enough money to buy a different one! I just want this to work!!"
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PseudoSpock
in reply to leninmummy • • •Choose a system, make it your daily driver for work and home, and you will form the habits and muscle memory. Don't and it will remain a struggle to some degree or another.
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bankimu
in reply to PseudoSpock • • •Never had a single glitch, everything runs like native.
PseudoSpock
in reply to bankimu • • •meat_popsicle
Unknown parent • • •Does it make you a patrician to use Linux? Are you a father figure now to society?
We plebeians are just waiting on your glory to shine upon us, o high one.
ocassionallyaduck
in reply to leninmummy • • •Nothing I know translates to Linux. Not the file structures, the commands, the permissions, the file systems.
You truly have to commit to learning an entirely parallel form of computing environment to become comfortable in Linux. And being frank, it is the most customizable and unique user experience out there, but it is also infinitely less user friendly. And for every time a 2 line terminal command fixes a problem and saves time compared with windows, there are dozens of instances where time is wasted for hours learning that command, its exact syntax and usage, and if it is the one you need for your circumstance.
Another user here recently said that it was when they were going through and compiling their own drivers to make their Webcam work and having to follow guides to make system specific tweaks that they just quit and went back to Windows for ease of use.
Linux is the OS of power users. Not even power users like me, but extreme power users... show more
Nothing I know translates to Linux. Not the file structures, the commands, the permissions, the file systems.
You truly have to commit to learning an entirely parallel form of computing environment to become comfortable in Linux. And being frank, it is the most customizable and unique user experience out there, but it is also infinitely less user friendly. And for every time a 2 line terminal command fixes a problem and saves time compared with windows, there are dozens of instances where time is wasted for hours learning that command, its exact syntax and usage, and if it is the one you need for your circumstance.
Another user here recently said that it was when they were going through and compiling their own drivers to make their Webcam work and having to follow guides to make system specific tweaks that they just quit and went back to Windows for ease of use.
Linux is the OS of power users. Not even power users like me, but extreme power users who either have the time or training to learn that parallel system. All of which is easy if this is your job, but in many ways you are learning a second language of sorts.
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Square Singer
in reply to ocassionallyaduck • • •I also spent most of my time working on Windows. When I started to work with Linux, like the OP I spent many years with in the "use it until I mess something up and then reinstall because I can't fix it" loop. But after a few years I really got into it. I haven't done a misconfiguration related reinstall in many years.
But if you put me in front of a Mac, I wouldn't even know how to copy/paste text.
like this
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megane-kun
in reply to Square Singer • • •I've had to troubleshoot router problems for a neighbor who uses Mac, and man was it a confusing experience. The UX is obviously Mac, so I've had trouble with it. But when I got to the command-line, it almost broke me. Why I was even in the command-line in the first place? I don't even know! But it's a confusing mix of familiar (from daily-driving Linux), and unfamiliar (different Mac-specific commands and syntax).
Someone else could probably point out what I've done wrong, but it still doesn't make it not a confusing experience. It's humbling, and the kids who've hung around me watching me try to fix their computer were even giving me tips (mostly on how to navigate the UI, helping me where to find the settings, etc).
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Square Singer
in reply to megane-kun • • •I don't know "computers", I know Windows and Debian-like Linux.
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cyberian_khatru
in reply to ocassionallyaduck • • •like this
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Underwaterbob
in reply to leninmummy • • •Cue version 22.00, and printing works again, albeit not always. My jobs get canceled periodically for no reason I can ascertain.
I had similar issues back in the mid-00s with a laptop I was trying to run Ubuntu 6.00 on. It mostly worked, but the webcam and trackpad were a lost cause to someone of my moderate abilities.
It's shit like this that hold Linux back. I've been running some form of Windows since 95, and I've never had unsolvable hardware problems with it.
Synthead
in reply to leninmummy • • •Why can't everybody speak French?
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TheButtonJustSpins
in reply to Synthead • • •dawwwsh likes this.
joel_feila
in reply to leninmummy • • •like this
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bankimu
Unknown parent • • •Config files are so much more flexible, shareable, and use friendly because you can edit them with anything and can have much more control.
meat_popsicle
Unknown parent • • •I wish you luck, o wise patrician. May the glory of Rome shine forever upon you.
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kyub
in reply to leninmummy • • •- False promises early on
We desktop Linux users are partly to blame for this. In ~1998 there was massive hype and media attention towards Linux being this viable alternative to Windows on the desktop. A lot of magazines and websites claimed that. Well, in 1998 I can safely say that Linux could be seen as an alternative, but not a mainstream compatible one. 25 years later, it's much easier to argue that it is, because it truly is easy to use nowadays, but back then, it certainly wasn't yet.The sad thing is, that we Linux users kind of caused a lot of people to think negatively about desktop Linux, just because we tried pushing them towards it too early on. A common problem in tech I think, where tech which isn't quite ready yet is being hyped as ready. Which leads to the second point:
- FUD / lack of information / lack of access to good, up to date information
People see low adoption rates, hear about "problems" or think it's a "toy for nerds", or... show more- False promises early on
We desktop Linux users are partly to blame for this. In ~1998 there was massive hype and media attention towards Linux being this viable alternative to Windows on the desktop. A lot of magazines and websites claimed that. Well, in 1998 I can safely say that Linux could be seen as an alternative, but not a mainstream compatible one. 25 years later, it's much easier to argue that it is, because it truly is easy to use nowadays, but back then, it certainly wasn't yet.The sad thing is, that we Linux users kind of caused a lot of people to think negatively about desktop Linux, just because we tried pushing them towards it too early on. A common problem in tech I think, where tech which isn't quite ready yet is being hyped as ready. Which leads to the second point:
- FUD / lack of information / lack of access to good, up to date information
People see low adoption rates, hear about "problems" or think it's a "toy for nerds", or still have an outdated view on desktop Linux. These things stick, and probably also cause people to think "oh yeah I've heard about that, it's probably nothing for me"- Preinstallations / OEM partnerships
MS has a huge advantage here, and a lot of the like really casual ordinary users out there will just use whatever comes preinstalled on their devices, which is in almost 100% of all cases Windows.- Schools / education
They still sometimes or even often(?) teach MS product usage, to "better prepare the students for their later work life where they almost certainly use 'industry standard' software like MS Office". This gets them used to the combo MS Windows+Office at an early age. A massive problem, and a huge failure of the education system to not be neutral in that regard.- Hardware and software devs ALWAYS ensure that their stuff is compatible with Windows due to its market share, but don't often ensure this for Linux, and whether 3rd party drivers are 100% feature complete or even working at all, is not sure
So you still need to be a bit careful about what you use (hardware & software) on Linux, while for Windows it's pretty much "turn your brain off, pick anything, it'll work". Just a problem of adoption rate though, as Linux grew, its compatibility grew as well, so this problem decreased by a lot already, but of course until everything will also automatically work on Linux, and until most devs will port their stuff to Linux as well as Windows and OS X, it will still need even more market share for desktop Linux. Since this is a known chicken-egg-effect (Linux has low adoption because software isn't available, but for software to become available, Linux marketshare needs to grow), we need to do it anyway, just to get out of that "dilemma". Just like Valve did when they said one day "ok f*ck this, we might have problems for our main business model when Microsoft becomes a direct competitor to Steam, so we must push towards neutral technologies, which is Linux". And then they did, and it worked out well for them, and the Linux community as a whole benefited from this due to having more choice now on which platforms their stuff can run. Even if we're talking about a proprietary application here, it's still a big milestone when you can run so many more applications/games suddenly on Linux, than before, and it drives adoption rates higher as well. So there you have a company who just did it, despite market share dictating that they shouldn't have done that. More companies need to follow, because that will also automatically increase desktop Linux marketshare, and this is all inter-connected. More marketshare, more devs, more compatibility, more apps available, and so on. Just start doing it, goddamnit. Staying on Windows means supporting the status quo and not helping to make any positive progress.- Either the general public needs to become more familiar with CLI usage (I'd prefer that), or Linux desktop applications need to become more feature-complete so that almost everything a regular user needs can be done via GUI as well
This is still not the case yet, but it's gotten better. Generally speaking: If you're afraid of the CLI, Linux is not something for you probably. But you shouldn't be afraid of it. You also aren't afraid of chat prompts. Most commands are easy to understand.- The amount of choice the user is confronted with (multiple distros, desktop environments, and so on) can lead to option paralysis
So people think they either have to research each option (extra effort required), or are likely to "choose wrong", and then don't choose at all.This is just an education issue though. People need to realize that this choice isn't bad, but actually good, and a consequence of an open environment where multiple projects "compete" for the same spot. Often, there are only a few viable options anyway. So it's not like you have to check out a lot. But we have to make sure that potential new users know which options are a great starting point for them, and not have them get lost in researching some niche distros/projects which they shouldn't start out with generally.
- "Convenience is a drug"
Which means a lot of people, even smart ones, will not care about any negatives as long as the stuff they're using works without any perceived user-relevant issues. Which means: they'll continue to use Windows even after it comes bundled with spyware, because they value the stuff "working" more than things like user control/agency, privacy, security and other more abstract things. This is problematic, because they position themselves in an absolute dependency where they can't get out of anymore and where all sorts of data about their work, private life, behavior, and so on is being leaked to external 3rd parties.This also presents a high barrier of convincing them to start becoming more technically independent: why should they make an effort to switch away from something that works in their eyes? This is a huge problem.
It's the same with Twitter/X or Reddit, not enough people switch away from those, even though it's easy to do nowadays. Even after so much negative press lately most still stick around. It's so hard to get the general population moving to something better once they've kind of stuck with one thing already.
But thankfully, at least on Windows, the process of "enshittification" (forced spyware, bloatware, adware, cloud integrations, MS accounts) continues at a fast pace, which means many users won't need to be convinced to use Linux, but rather they will at some point be annoyed by Windows/Microsoft itself. Linux becoming easier to use and Windows becoming more annoying and user-hostile at the same time will thankfully accelerate the "organic" Linux growth process, but it'll still take a couple of years.
- "Peer pressure" / feeling of being left alone
As a desktop Linux user, chances are high that you're an "outsider" among your peers who probably use Windows. Not everyone can feel comfortable in such a role over a longer period of time. Just a matter of market share, again, but still can pose a psychological issue maybe in some cases. Or it can lead to peer pressure, like when some Windows game or something isn't working fully for the Linux guy, that there will be peer pressure to move to Windows just to get that one working. As one example.- Following the hype of new software releases and thinking that you always need the most features or that you need the "industry standard" when you don't really need it.
A lot of users probably prefer something like MS Office with its massive feature set and "industry standard" label over the libre/free office suites. Because something that has less features could be interpreted as being worse. But here it's important to educate such users that it really only matters whether all features they NEED are present. And if so, it wouldn't matter for them which they use.MS Office for example has a multi-year lead in development (it was already dominating the office suite market world-wide when Linux was still being born so to say) so of course it has more features accumulated over this long time, but most users actually don't need them. Sure, everyone uses a different subset of features, but it's at least likely that the libre office suites contain everything most users need. So it's just about getting used to them. Which is also hard, to make a switch, to change your workflows, etc., so it would be better if MS Office could work on Linux so that people could at least be able to continue to use that even though it's not recommended to do so (proprietary, spyware, MS cloud integrations). But since I'm all for having more options, it would at least be better in general for it to be available as well. But until that happens, we need to tell potential new users that they probably can also live with the alternatives just fine.