System76 or Framework laptop?
Look, we know System76 laptops are based as fuck. I mean, Coreboot, Open source firmware, PopOS, and a fucking open source mobo in the works, just so fucking based.
But man, these framework laptops look cool too. Completely modular and easy to work on. Looks like the company has proved it isn't going to go under anytime soon.
I'm debating what to get once I feel like upgrading from the trusty ol ThinkPad. What would you buy?
But man, these framework laptops look cool too. Completely modular and easy to work on. Looks like the company has proved it isn't going to go under anytime soon.
I'm debating what to get once I feel like upgrading from the trusty ol ThinkPad. What would you buy?
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Lemmyin
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
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PupBiru
in reply to Lemmyin • • •hell i’ve seen people tear up old laptops and repurpose the screen: i wonder if you could part out an old macbook and replace a framework screen! 😛
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shirro
in reply to Lemmyin • • •The Framework 16" is going to be a 165Hz 2560x1600 16:10 which is well behind the Macbook Pro 16" but they are addressing very different markets. Many Linux and possibly still some Windows users are skeptical about the battery use, performance and os/app scaling of very high res displays while Apple addressed those issues a long time ago. I considered scaling a negative over using native resolution when looking at the Framework 13. It turned out not to be a problem.
Framework is a sustainable/repairable device for Windows/Linux/BSD/ChromeOS and they only really need to compete with what is available to those users. Their Chromebook is way ahead of the Chromebook market. They can't compete against Apple because Apple doesn't licence their OS or processors to other manufacturers... show more
The Framework 16" is going to be a 165Hz 2560x1600 16:10 which is well behind the Macbook Pro 16" but they are addressing very different markets. Many Linux and possibly still some Windows users are skeptical about the battery use, performance and os/app scaling of very high res displays while Apple addressed those issues a long time ago. I considered scaling a negative over using native resolution when looking at the Framework 13. It turned out not to be a problem.
Framework is a sustainable/repairable device for Windows/Linux/BSD/ChromeOS and they only really need to compete with what is available to those users. Their Chromebook is way ahead of the Chromebook market. They can't compete against Apple because Apple doesn't licence their OS or processors to other manufacturers so it is a pointless comparison.
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Lemmyin
in reply to shirro • • •nickwitha_k (he/him)
in reply to Lemmyin • • •thejevans
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Coreboot is cool, and I can't wait to see the new system76 laptop that is being built in-house, but until that comes out, I don't think I would ever consider the current lineup of system76 computers.
My main motivations are repairability, upgradability, and specificity of components, and system76 just doesn't offer that. They don't tell you what ram or SSD models go into your laptop, they don't sell replacement parts, and there is no upgrade path.
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Zaphod
in reply to thejevans • • •I'm pretty sure if you wanted to know more they'd tell you. System76 supports the right to repair, although their Laptops are probably not as easy to repair as a Framework.
Adder WS (addw3) - System76 Technical Documentation
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floofloof
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
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18107
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I've been trying to convince my partner that we need to buy one. My only problem is that I have a perfectly good desktop, and don't need a laptop.
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Nuuskis9
in reply to 18107 • • •https://github.com/system76/virgo
Actually Soller said, that they will release everything needed to start your own production line. Has Framework released the schematics yet?
GitHub - system76/virgo: System76 Virgo Laptop Project
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18107
in reply to Nuuskis9 • • •Thanks!
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Darkrai
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RossoErcole
in reply to Nuuskis9 • • •Here is a video of Rossman talking about it https://youtu.be/8cJj8PUY0DU
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Ivan
in reply to MashingBundle • • •because they do not make shipments in my country 😥
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in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
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iopq
in reply to j4k3 • • •RossoErcole
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Nuuskis9
in reply to MashingBundle • • •* Trackpoint
* Open Source Bios
* Hot swappable mechanical keys
* full sized up and down arrow keys (not splitted in half)
* Motherboard is designed and most likely manufactured too in Colorado, US
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IncidentalIncidence
in reply to Nuuskis9 • • •GitHub - system76/virgo: System76 Virgo Laptop Project
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in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
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morhp
in reply to nani8ot • • •Framework is also very strict regarding unsupported countries. If you move within the EU to a country that isn't supported by Framework, you'll have big problems with support in case you need help or parts or whatever.
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_ParallaxMax_
in reply to morhp • • •All this to say that, if you live in a supported country in the EU, I see no reason that people may find their support lacking.
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morhp
in reply to _ParallaxMax_ • • •I live in Germany near the Netherlands border. Moving between countries is very common here because of different living costs and job opportunities and losing support because you move a few km west or east is not acceptable in my opinion.
Infiltrated_ad8271
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Also, in the stores that preset linux there is usually a bad quality-price ratio, but system76 is particularly expert in this. Special mention to the mediocre mechanical keyboard (only for murica, obviously) they designed, 200-300$.
The only good thing I can currently say about them is that they have some open firmware (coreboot, basically), but it's not even that remarkable. Not only are there several companies in the competition that also do it, but it's even the case of tiny ones with a couple of employees like novacustom.
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asexualchangeling
in reply to Daeraxa • • •Although I preordered the framework 16", so I'm not exactly in the market for a new Laptop rn anyway
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in reply to Daeraxa • • •The Puritans are the group you're describing.
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in reply to Daeraxa • • •The Importance of Two-Factor Authentication
Microsoft 365BaldProphet
in reply to Daeraxa • • •The Importance of Two-Factor Authentication
Microsoft 365thejevans
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MyNameIsFred
in reply to thejevans • • •I quite like it. Having used gnome, kde and even things like awesomwm or other des or window managers, pops de is quite nice
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thejevans
in reply to MyNameIsFred • • •MyNameIsFred
in reply to thejevans • • •I wouldn’t consider pop for its kernel selection and immediately want to install AwesomeWM or something. For that I would just go straight Debian.
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nous
in reply to tobimai • • •But also they have released the motherboard design for their Virgo laptop recently: https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1678891840093978625
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jerb
in reply to callmepk • • •Next laptop is a Framework for sure.
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Unknown parent • • •like this
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digital_alchemist
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Are third parties free to manufacture compatible parts?
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erwan
in reply to digital_alchemist • • •So if Framework disappears tomorrow, I wouldn't bet on 3rd party to jump on that niche market. That might change of Framework ships millions of units over the next years.
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MyNameIsFred
in reply to digital_alchemist • • •I think most of their stuff is open source. So the main thing is the barrier to entry to design things like modules etc for the laptop.
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Dudewitbow
in reply to digital_alchemist • • •I just dont recall if all the mainboard stuff is open, but theoretically a 3rd party could make their own mainboard, theres just no financial incentive to compete against framework doong that as of the moment.
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OsrsNeedsF2P
in reply to MashingBundle • • •S76 is fine, maybe even good, but my next device will be a Framework for sure.
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loopgru
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in reply to loopgru • • •like this
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cass
in reply to loopgru • • •I still need to check in on it, but one of the biggest issues with sleep on Framework laptop is that the usb-c adapters (like HDMI) passively draw power. If you use 4 usb-c (or just leave it empty), you have better sleep experience.
kelvie
in reply to cass • • •Enable hibernate during lockdown
Gistlike this
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in reply to kelvie • • •like this
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in reply to cass • • •cass likes this.
dark_stang
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Eta: I'd love to see a partnership between them in the future.
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Nuuskis9
Unknown parent • • •Avid Amoeba likes this.
gortbrown
in reply to MashingBundle • • •System 76 laptops are probably a bit better for Linux considering they were built specifically for it. They also have more variety in what kind of laptop you can get, whereas the Framework only comes in a 13 inch "ultrabook" form factor and a future 16 inch gaming laptop. And battery life I believe is a bit better than the Framework.
However, Framework still works really well with Linux (I use Linux Mint on mine, and it works great.) And the flexibility in being able to repair, upgrade and customize your laptop is really nice. Plus, the battery thing is slowly but surely getting fixed, and while it's still not entirely great, it has gotten me through the day as a computer science student.
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conorab
in reply to gortbrown • • •I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this. In 2018 I bought an Oryx Pro specifically because of this and because at the time JB was advertising them as "machines born to run Linux". However, this was not the case. The machine would constantly fail to resume from sleep and when it did, the wired network adapter would sometimes stop working until you rebooted the machine. This was on Pop!OS. The wired network adapter issue did not occur on Debian Testing at the time, but at this point I was just doing all the same workarounds on a System76 machine that I would have to do on any other machine, which completely defeated the point of buying a machine "born to run Linux". I ended up returning the machine despite this meaning that I would lose $1000 AUD in shipping (roughly $500 AUD each way). System76 did r... show more
I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this. In 2018 I bought an Oryx Pro specifically because of this and because at the time JB was advertising them as "machines born to run Linux". However, this was not the case. The machine would constantly fail to resume from sleep and when it did, the wired network adapter would sometimes stop working until you rebooted the machine. This was on Pop!OS. The wired network adapter issue did not occur on Debian Testing at the time, but at this point I was just doing all the same workarounds on a System76 machine that I would have to do on any other machine, which completely defeated the point of buying a machine "born to run Linux". I ended up returning the machine despite this meaning that I would lose $1000 AUD in shipping (roughly $500 AUD each way). System76 did refund the cost of the machine as promised though and I appreciated the honesty and professionalism from their support. I believe the network issue was due to a regression in the kernel which had not yet trickled all the way down. To be fair, maybe System76 have ironed these issues out on their new machines.
Don't buy a machine from a manufacturer because they specifically sell Linux laptops hoping that it means you won't run in to any issues. Do some research on the model you're looking to buy for any issues with the distro you want to run and make your decision from there. The Ubuntu computer certifications are really useful here. I believe Ubuntu tested the ThinkPad P52 I bought afterwards and said everything but the fingerprint sensor worked, but to NEVER turn on one of the BIOS options because I would brick the machine, so I knew this before buying the ThinkPad and could make an informed decision.
The one advantage you might get with a Linux manufacturer is that they might be able to help if there is an issue, where-as you might have to hide the fact you run Linux from other manufacturers.
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in reply to gortbrown • • •like this
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bloodfart
in reply to MashingBundle • • •With all the bad experiences itt from owners of both companies products, why not just get a thinkpad or mbp? You can still get socketed everything in the t and p series and eventually there’ll be Linux on the m1&2.
I could see buying framework or s76 if you were getting a good open laptop but at the place both companies products seem to be why not buy a known good computer and donate some money to whatever group is doing the work you wanna see done?
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in reply to bloodfart • • •azuth doesn't like this.
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in reply to bloodfart • • •like this
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const_void
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •Avid Amoeba
in reply to const_void • • •const_void likes this.
bloodfart
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •I haven’t seen any framework modules up on eBay, but maybe I didn’t use the right p/n search.
Avid Amoeba
in reply to bloodfart • • •I had a USB port fail on my 11th gen Intel Framework. They sent me a replacement motherboard along with a link to the instructions for replacing it. It took me under 10 minutes to swap it. It was amazing. Just opening up a ThinkPad these days without breaking a plastic clip could take as much.
bloodfart
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •Avid Amoeba
in reply to bloodfart • • •Except in the case of Framework going under, it's much easier for another manufacturer to release a compatible motherboard since the form factor is published and fairly simple. Similar to why it's easy to replace my desktop's motherboard even when the original one is no longer made. If anything, the current OEM making the motherboards could keep making replacements on the same tooling after Framework is gone, so long as there are people buying them.
bloodfart
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •What I’m getting at is: does open sourcing the layouts and boms help?
Holli25
in reply to bloodfart • • •bloodfart
in reply to Holli25 • • •Holli25
in reply to bloodfart • • •KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ
in reply to bloodfart • • •MyNameIsFred
in reply to bloodfart • • •Instead I got a thinkpad t480 for like 400 bucks. It will do fine as a laptop mostly used for chrome, paying bills or zoom calls etc.
Nuuskis9
Unknown parent • • •like this
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ripe_banana
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Also, Linux support has been great so far. The only thing I had to do was install the brightness stuff they document.
I also heard they're working on coreboot, so that may be a thing. Also the fact that the motherboard is released to all repair shops is quite nice (at least there is some potential for some type of community audit).
Also, the laptop is super slick. The only complaint I have is maybe the battery life, but I'm not on the newest generation, and I don't know what has changed. Highly recommend.
[RESPONDED] Coreboot on the Framework Laptop
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in reply to egonallanon • • •Battery
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shirro
in reply to MashingBundle • • •System76 are a bit of a fantasy for me. I looked at them for years but I don't want to pay a premium then deal with international RMA on a rebadged Clevo. I always bought whatever looked good in locally available Windows laptops instead before Framework.
Now I am in the ecosystem I very selfishly want Framework to succeed and guarantee my access to upgrades and parts. I respect System76's mission and understand why people would wish to support them, particularly when their own laptop designs start shipping. System76's focus on North America and dependence on white box laptops hasn't delivered as well in my opinion, at least for my needs.
System76 have tried hard to improve openness and repairability but their laptops are still disposabl... show more
System76 are a bit of a fantasy for me. I looked at them for years but I don't want to pay a premium then deal with international RMA on a rebadged Clevo. I always bought whatever looked good in locally available Windows laptops instead before Framework.
Now I am in the ecosystem I very selfishly want Framework to succeed and guarantee my access to upgrades and parts. I respect System76's mission and understand why people would wish to support them, particularly when their own laptop designs start shipping. System76's focus on North America and dependence on white box laptops hasn't delivered as well in my opinion, at least for my needs.
System76 have tried hard to improve openness and repairability but their laptops are still disposable at end of life while Framework have made a huge leap with upgradability that has the potential to reduce ewaste and I want to see how far that model can be pushed.
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in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
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Firipu
in reply to flakusha • • •like this
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spookedbyroaches
Unknown parent • • •dizzy
in reply to MashingBundle • • •TUXEDO Computers
www.tuxedocomputers.comlike this
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binarious doesn't like this.
PR_freak
in reply to dizzy • • •I own one (from tuxedo) and can say it is a bomb. Pretty spec'd out from 5 years ago still working great
like this
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binarious doesn't like this.
binarious
in reply to PR_freak • • •Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.comlike this
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CrypticCoffee
in reply to PR_freak • • •like this
survive and Klaymore like this.
Sparrow doesn't like this.
Maturi0n
in reply to dizzy • • •like this
dizzy and blackluster117 like this.
_s10e
in reply to dizzy • • •One time they shipped a device where the trackpad did not work. Well, not on Linux at least. Their excuse: The hardware manufacturer chose a newer model not yet supported.
They were helpful and provided a new firmware a few days later, which did solve the issue, but out-of-the-box experience was not exciting.
I'm still using this machine, however.
Both this and a model I bought earlier felt cheaper than the price point. Maybe it is not fair; maybe it's not that important, but at 1000€+ I have some expection on build quantity and loooks.
Those are small things, sure, but they are not perfect, yet.
dizzy
in reply to _s10e • • •Your insight has made this decision harder so… thanks? Haha!
like this
_s10e likes this.
eshep
in reply to MashingBundle • •TrivialBetaState likes this.
binarious doesn't like this.
Linux reshared this.
binarious
in reply to eshep • • •Linux reshared this.
eshep
in reply to binarious • •I've not tried a huge sampling of different ones (3~4), but I've yet to run across a USB-C dock that didn't work for me under gentoo.
The LVFS thing doesn't really bother me as much as the still delayed coreboot/libreboot they're working on. Most people couldn't care less about either of those things, and they're not a show-stopper for me, so it still remains at the top of my very light recommendations list.
Linux reshared this.
binarious
in reply to eshep • • •Interesting. I've tried around 5 docks from which only 1 worked correctly. Mostly issues with 4K at 60hz. Other notebooks worked well with the ones the tuxedos struggled.
I agree, the manual EC/BIOS updates aren't very nice, but not a show-stopper. Coreboot has been promised for quite some time now and they're still searching a coreboot dev. Maybe this will be a thing someday, but I don't think we'll see that soon reading their responses regarding this on reddit.
eshep likes this.
Linux reshared this.
topRamen
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
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Rassilonian Legate
in reply to topRamen • • •like this
topRamen, Wolfram, pitl and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
NaoPb
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Sadly I cannot. And so I am still stuck with decades old closed source hardware. But at least I'm running Linux on it.
like this
Antiques, highduc and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
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Papamousse
in reply to NaoPb • • •I bought a E5470 (core I5 6th gen) I love it, less than 200$, 8GB of ram, 14" 1080p IPS, 256GB SSD. Full repair manual available, etc.
I'm running MX Linux on it
like this
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NaoPb
in reply to Papamousse • • •I think it's nice how Dell still supports these. I've always been fond of the Latitude laptops with their ruggedness.
Papamousse
in reply to NaoPb • • •sounddrill
in reply to Papamousse • • •However, they're very bloated
slembcke
in reply to MashingBundle • • •BUT....
Support was pretty awful, and I'm not sure I'd recommend getting one because of it unfortunately. 🙁 Out of the box, the ctrl key was bad and would unclip with a nasty "crunch" noise. I had to send it in to get that fixed, though it was pretty painless. Then a few months later the wifi card died, and I had to send it in again. There was a lot of back and forth to get it fixed that time. Then as it was about to got out of warranty it died again. This time was like pulling teeth. I had to triple check things and send them logs mult... show more
BUT....
Support was pretty awful, and I'm not sure I'd recommend getting one because of it unfortunately. 🙁 Out of the box, the ctrl key was bad and would unclip with a nasty "crunch" noise. I had to send it in to get that fixed, though it was pretty painless. Then a few months later the wifi card died, and I had to send it in again. There was a lot of back and forth to get it fixed that time. Then as it was about to got out of warranty it died again. This time was like pulling teeth. I had to triple check things and send them logs multiple times, each time with a turnaround of several days. It took weeks for them to finally say "sounds like a hardware issue, what would you like us to do?". I was flabergasted. It was still in warranty, why would you even ask that?! I spent several weeks trying to convince them my in warranty device needed repairs and they wanted to know if I wanted it fixed?! It took 6 weeks in total to get it fixed, and it turned out that it was a bad connector on the motherboard causing the issues the whole time. When I got it back it was missing a couple screws and the power supply. They basically called me a liar. -_- A couple weeks ago it died completely and won't power on anymore. I chatted with support again, but they just started giving me the same run-around. I gave up.
I pre-ordered an AMD Framework back in March. Now I'm kinda grumpy because I have no laptop and I bought one that might not ship for another month or two. I wasn't too worried if the AMD Framework had some early adopter issues as the Lemur still worked when I put in the pre-order. Grrr. -_- My old 2013 MacBook Air is still in pristine condition though... Considering just putting Linux on that to use for a few months.
like this
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fxdave
in reply to slembcke • • •like this
XLRV and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
slembcke
in reply to fxdave • • •For as grumpy about RTR as Apple is today, in the past at least I found their service to be pretty excellent. On multiple occasions I got free repairs or battery replacements on machines that were out of warranty and frankly just... worn out. The one time I actually had to send one off for repair it was back on my desk in a matter of days. I haven't been their customer in 10 years,... show more
For as grumpy about RTR as Apple is today, in the past at least I found their service to be pretty excellent. On multiple occasions I got free repairs or battery replacements on machines that were out of warranty and frankly just... worn out. The one time I actually had to send one off for repair it was back on my desk in a matter of days. I haven't been their customer in 10 years, and it sounds like it's probably changed though. (shrug)
TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
gutter564
in reply to MashingBundle • • •toastedenough
in reply to gutter564 • • •grue
in reply to MashingBundle • • •ĐɄɄĐ likes this.
InFerNo
in reply to grue • • •ĐɄɄĐ likes this.
grue
in reply to InFerNo • • •I have a desktop for gaming and anything else that takes real power, so I wouldn't really care about my laptop's performance.
KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ
in reply to MashingBundle • • •A modularized laptop is cool but how often are you really going to want to mess with a laptop once it's working anyway?
ChocoLemming doesn't like this.
slembcke
in reply to KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ • • •ĐɄɄĐ likes this.
spookedbyroaches
Unknown parent • • •like this
ChocoLemming likes this.