System76 or Framework laptop?
Look, we know System76 laptops are based as fuck. I mean, Coreboot, Open source firmware, PopOS, and a fucking open source mobo in the works, just so fucking based.
But man, these framework laptops look cool too. Completely modular and easy to work on. Looks like the company has proved it isn't going to go under anytime soon.
I'm debating what to get once I feel like upgrading from the trusty ol ThinkPad. What would you buy?
like this
don't like this
Lemmyin
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
Agility0971, addie, sibloure, TheButtonJustSpins and everett like this.
PupBiru
in reply to Lemmyin • • •not that it helps, but i think i heard framework is keen for 3rd party components? so there’s nothing stopping someone selling a 3rd party high res display for a framework laptop
hell i’ve seen people tear up old laptops and repurpose the screen: i wonder if you could part out an old macbook and replace a framework screen! :p
like this
TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
don't like this
Lemmyin doesn't like this.
shirro
in reply to Lemmyin • • •The Framework is 2256x1504 in a 3:2 13.5" display and Macbook Pro 13" is 2560 x 1600 16:10. The Mac wins as they should with Apple's massive vertical integration and profit margins but I would argue those numbers are comparable when a lot of laptops are still shipping with 1920x1080 16:9 displays.
The Framework 16" is going to be a 165Hz 2560x1600 16:10 which is well behind the Macbook Pro 16" but they are addressing very different markets. Many Linux and possibly still some Windows users are skeptical about the battery use, performance and os/app scaling of very high res displays while Apple addressed those issues a long time ago. I considered scaling a negative over using native resolution when looking at the Framework 13. It turned out not to be a problem.
Framework is a sustainable/repairable device for Windows/Linux/BSD/ChromeOS and they only really need to compete with what is available to those users. Their Chromebook is way ahead of the Chromebook market. They can't compete against Apple because Apple doesn't licence their OS or processors to other manufacturer
... show moreThe Framework is 2256x1504 in a 3:2 13.5" display and Macbook Pro 13" is 2560 x 1600 16:10. The Mac wins as they should with Apple's massive vertical integration and profit margins but I would argue those numbers are comparable when a lot of laptops are still shipping with 1920x1080 16:9 displays.
The Framework 16" is going to be a 165Hz 2560x1600 16:10 which is well behind the Macbook Pro 16" but they are addressing very different markets. Many Linux and possibly still some Windows users are skeptical about the battery use, performance and os/app scaling of very high res displays while Apple addressed those issues a long time ago. I considered scaling a negative over using native resolution when looking at the Framework 13. It turned out not to be a problem.
Framework is a sustainable/repairable device for Windows/Linux/BSD/ChromeOS and they only really need to compete with what is available to those users. Their Chromebook is way ahead of the Chromebook market. They can't compete against Apple because Apple doesn't licence their OS or processors to other manufacturers so it is a pointless comparison.
like this
Bartsbigbugbag, TheButtonJustSpins and everett like this.
Lemmyin
in reply to shirro • • •nickwitha_k (he/him)
in reply to Lemmyin • • •thejevans
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I have a framework 12th gen. It's great. Fantastic build quality and when I want to upgrade, I don't need a whole new laptop, just the necessary internal components. I can even switch to AMD!
Coreboot is cool, and I can't wait to see the new system76 laptop that is being built in-house, but until that comes out, I don't think I would ever consider the current lineup of system76 computers.
My main motivations are repairability, upgradability, and specificity of components, and system76 just doesn't offer that. They don't tell you what ram or SSD models go into your laptop, they don't sell replacement parts, and there is no upgrade path.
like this
Agility0971, Ashley, krousenick, tara, somnuz, Asahi, redshift, MayoDuckPie, HughJanus, TheButtonJustSpins, DJFart, Y0z64, bobthecowboy, recursive_recursion [they/them], azuth, matthew28845, ElPussyKangaroo, feyded1020, cole, wildergheight, CornHead764, Nioxic and ripe_banana like this.
don't like this
krousenick and iLFSD don't like this.
Zaphod
in reply to thejevans • • •tech-docs.system76.com/models/…
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to know more they'd tell you. System76 supports the right to repair, although their Laptops are probably not as easy to repair as a Framework.
Adder WS (addw3) - System76 Technical Documentation
tech-docs.system76.comlike this
StarkillerX42, eggmasterflex, Asahi, MayoDuckPie, mesamune, TheButtonJustSpins, DJFart, feyded1020, thejevans and falx like this.
thejevans
in reply to Zaphod • • •like this
Asahi, Alatain, HughJanus, TheButtonJustSpins, katie, Avid Amoeba and Scroll Responsibly like this.
DJFart doesn't like this.
Nuuskis9
in reply to thejevans • • •TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
thejevans
in reply to Nuuskis9 • • •like this
TheButtonJustSpins and Avid Amoeba like this.
floofloof
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
thejevans, TheButtonJustSpins and nickwitha_k (he/him) like this.
18107
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I've been trying to convince my partner that we need to buy one. My only problem is that I have a perfectly good desktop, and don't need a laptop.
like this
Alatain and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
Nuuskis9
in reply to 18107 • • •Virgo by System 76 is already designed for board-level repairs. All the schematics is already available, and will be found on their website when ready for production:
github.com/system76/virgo
Actually Soller said, that they will release everything needed to start your own production line. Has Framework released the schematics yet?
GitHub - system76/virgo: System76 Virgo Laptop Project
GitHublike this
lps2, Bartsbigbugbag, TheButtonJustSpins and guttermonk like this.
18107
in reply to Nuuskis9 • • •I didn't know that. Perhaps I need to research a little more before commenting.
Thanks!
like this
TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
Darkrai
in reply to 18107 • • •TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
RossoErcole
in reply to Nuuskis9 • • •Yeah there are schematics from framework, I don't think they are full though.
Here is a video of Rossman talking about it youtu.be/8cJj8PUY0DU
like this
Bartsbigbugbag and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
Ivan
in reply to MashingBundle • • •because they do not make shipments in my country 😥
like this
TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
j4k3
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
iopq
in reply to j4k3 • • •RossoErcole
in reply to j4k3 • • •like this
OsrsNeedsF2P and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
Nuuskis9
in reply to MashingBundle • • •* Trackpoint
* Open Source Bios
* Hot swappable mechanical keys
* full sized up and down arrow keys (not splitted in half)
* Motherboard is designed and most likely manufactured too in Colorado, US
like this
OsrsNeedsF2P, dvb and everett like this.
IncidentalIncidence
in reply to Nuuskis9 • • •GitHub - system76/virgo: System76 Virgo Laptop Project
GitHublike this
OsrsNeedsF2P and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
nani8ot
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
absolutely_not, StarkillerX42, clodimus, that_one_guy, krash, MayoDuckPie, Bankenstein, azuth, Oinks, morhp, Scroll Responsibly and falx like this.
morhp
in reply to nani8ot • • •However with Framework you still need to be careful in Europe. It's an US based company and if you have a defect or problem that Framework for some reason doesn't resolve, good luck trying to enforce your EU customer protection or suing them in the US.
Framework is also very strict regarding unsupported countries. If you move within the EU to a country that isn't supported by Framework, you'll have big problems with support in case you need help or parts or whatever.
like this
netrom, that_one_guy, MrFlamey, TheButtonJustSpins, Oinks, Aio and falx like this.
redshift doesn't like this.
_ParallaxMax_
in reply to morhp • • •About support: I have a Framework laptop. With my initial shipment I received a defective Ethernet expansion port. The failure was difficult to identify, but support was incredibly responsive and helpful. Once it was confirmed the issue was due to a defective Ethernet card (which took some investigative effort), a replacement was shipped immediately.
All this to say that, if you live in a supported country in the EU, I see no reason that people may find their support lacking.
like this
RogueTyre likes this.
morhp
in reply to _ParallaxMax_ • • •I'm not saying that support is lacking, all I'm saying is that you have to have complete trust in a company on the other side of the globe, because all the warranties and promises they give you are completely based on their good will. If they decide to stop supporting you for whatever reason, you pretty much have no leverage.
I live in Germany near the Netherlands border. Moving between countries is very common here because of different living costs and job opportunities and losing support because you move a few km west or east is not acceptable in my opinion.
Infiltrated_ad8271
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I will never choose system76, they are strictly murica-centric (until the name lol) and don't respect their potential customers from the rest of the world. Almost all of their laptops are simply clevo with another logo, but even then they don't deign to offer something as extremely basic as keyboards in other languages, even if they are available from their vendor.
Also, in the stores that preset linux there is usually a bad quality-price ratio, but system76 is particularly expert in this. Special mention to the mediocre mechanical keyboard (only for murica, obviously) they designed, 200-300$.
The only good thing I can currently say about them is that they have some open firmware (coreboot, basically), but it's not even that remarkable. Not only are there several companies in the competition that also do it, but it's even the case of tiny ones with a couple of employees like novacustom.
like this
stock, morhp, nic547, clodimus, katie, MayoDuckPie, Bartsbigbugbag, azuth, binarious, RogueTyre, Zapp, feyded1020 and frippa like this.
don't like this
lps2 and redshift don't like this.
Daeraxa
in reply to Infiltrated_ad8271 • • •like this
absolutely_not, Bartsbigbugbag and turnbelt like this.
don't like this
redshift and turnbelt don't like this.
kureta
in reply to Daeraxa • • •like this
metiulekm, VerbTheNoun95, Asahi and KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ like this.
twei
in reply to kureta • • •like this
IncidentalIncidence, Agility0971, Zadeis and kureta like this.
Daeraxa
in reply to kureta • • •From wikipedia:
like this
priapus, drcobaltjedi, metiulekm, absolutely_not, VerbTheNoun95, Asahi, Alatain, Bartsbigbugbag, pssk, stormio, KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ and kureta like this.
azuth doesn't like this.
Voyajer
in reply to Daeraxa • • •like this
rattboi, priapus, metiulekm, lps2, eggmasterflex, VerbTheNoun95, redshift and everett like this.
don't like this
azuth and frippa don't like this.
Daeraxa
in reply to Voyajer • • •like this
AProfessional, superfes, absolutely_not, morhp, clodimus, VerbTheNoun95, Bartsbigbugbag, azuth, humanplayer2, RogueTyre, paurix, germy and frippa like this.
don't like this
IncidentalIncidence, priapus, metiulekm, redshift and Zadeis don't like this.
Duamerthrax
in reply to Daeraxa • • •like this
priapus, drcobaltjedi, metiulekm, lps2, sleepmode, redshift, Scroll Responsibly and mrh like this.
frippa doesn't like this.
Daeraxa
in reply to Duamerthrax • • •like this
absolutely_not and VerbTheNoun95 like this.
DeveloperAdvocake doesn't like this.
Duamerthrax
in reply to Daeraxa • • •Daeraxa
in reply to Duamerthrax • • •like this
VerbTheNoun95 and Bartsbigbugbag like this.
Duamerthrax
in reply to Daeraxa • • •Different groups. The Freemasons, which is a real group, but not as occult as pop culture would have you believe, had more to do with the founding of the US. Freemasons also had connections with the French Revolution.
The Puritans are the group you're describing.
everett likes this.
Daeraxa
in reply to Duamerthrax • • •Duamerthrax
in reply to Daeraxa • • •don't like this
Daeraxa doesn't like this.
Daeraxa
in reply to Duamerthrax • • •Bartsbigbugbag likes this.
Cybersteel
in reply to Daeraxa • • •Daeraxa
in reply to Cybersteel • • •BaldProphet
in reply to Daeraxa • • •like this
TheButtonJustSpins, xylltch and Zadeis like this.
Daeraxa
in reply to BaldProphet • • •everett likes this.
Zadeis doesn't like this.
BaldProphet
in reply to Daeraxa • • •The Importance of Two-Factor Authentication
Microsoft 365BaldProphet
in reply to Daeraxa • • •The Importance of Two-Factor Authentication
Microsoft 365thejevans
in reply to Infiltrated_ad8271 • • •like this
TheButtonJustSpins and Scroll Responsibly like this.
redshift doesn't like this.
MyNameIsFred
in reply to thejevans • • •What don’t you like about popos?
I quite like it. Having used gnome, kde and even things like awesomwm or other des or window managers, pops de is quite nice
like this
lps2 and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
thejevans
in reply to MyNameIsFred • • •MyNameIsFred
in reply to thejevans • • •That’s fair. It seems like pop_os is trying to be a DE, the rest of the parts (kernel, drivers, packaging system of choice etc) are just a means to that end.
I wouldn’t consider pop for its kernel selection and immediately want to install AwesomeWM or something. For that I would just go straight Debian.
thejevans likes this.
tobimai
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
AProfessional, drcobaltjedi, absolutely_not, TheButtonJustSpins, Avid Amoeba and sixapples like this.
nous
in reply to tobimai • • •Not just rebrands, they do put coreboot and as much OSS firmware on them as they can. So do contribute quite a lot to software around this, not to mention they maintain PopOS.
But also they have released the motherboard design for their Virgo laptop recently: twitter.com/jeremy_soller/stat…
like this
YetAnotherYeti, lps2, TheButtonJustSpins, russjr08, merehap and sixapples like this.
don't like this
callmepk doesn't like this.
callmepk
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
stoehraj, rglullis, addie, netrom, gronjo45, TheButtonJustSpins, binarious and sixapples like this.
Gianni R doesn't like this.
dartanjinn
in reply to callmepk • • •like this
addie and sixapples like this.
jerb
in reply to callmepk • • •I can agree with this, my Darter has horrendous battery life and had a ton of bugs that made the thing really annoying to use until a recent BIOS update. I can't help but feel like I got burned.
Next laptop is a Framework for sure.
like this
TheButtonJustSpins and sixapples like this.
callmepk
in reply to jerb • • •jerb likes this.
aneasyusername doesn't like this.
nasa1531
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
stankmut, Biblbrox, macwinux, XPost3000, Guilty Tangent, StarkillerX42, jjb113, katie and mexicancartel like this.
stankmut doesn't like this.
garam
in reply to nasa1531 • • •like this
Biblbrox, 17451k, MrFlamey and mexicancartel like this.
DataDreadnought
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
OsrsNeedsF2P, katie and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
Nuuskis9
Unknown parent • • •like this
Avid Amoeba likes this.
digital_alchemist
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Does anyone know how much the ability to upgrade a Framework machine in the future depends on the company?
Are third parties free to manufacture compatible parts?
like this
that_one_guy and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
erwan
in reply to digital_alchemist • • •AFAIK they are, but it will only happen if Framework sells enough units for it to be profitable to a 3rd party to manufacture parts.
So if Framework disappears tomorrow, I wouldn't bet on 3rd party to jump on that niche market. That might change of Framework ships millions of units over the next years.
like this
madasi, thejevans, dark_stang and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
MyNameIsFred
in reply to digital_alchemist • • •There are third parties (mostly people with 3d printers) selling enclosures to turn an old laptop mail board from framework into a mini desktop.
I think most of their stuff is open source. So the main thing is the barrier to entry to design things like modules etc for the laptop.
TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
Dudewitbow
in reply to digital_alchemist • • •I believe 3rd party is free to manufacture any of the expansion ports (including the gpu/back expansion port)
I just dont recall if all the mainboard stuff is open, but theoretically a 3rd party could make their own mainboard, theres just no financial incentive to compete against framework doong that as of the moment.
like this
that_one_guy, InAmberClad and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
OsrsNeedsF2P
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I've got the S76 Pangolin. It's the best laptop I've ever had, but still lacks on the GPU and upgradability. I had to replace my fan once already too, and it cost over 100$ to get the exact component shipped.
S76 is fine, maybe even good, but my next device will be a Framework for sure.
like this
Gianni R, that_one_guy, katie and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
Gianni R doesn't like this.
loopgru
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
StarkillerX42, StealThisComment and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
snek_boi
in reply to loopgru • • •like this
GravityAce, TheButtonJustSpins and mexicancartel like this.
gortbrown
in reply to loopgru • • •like this
TheButtonJustSpins and mexicancartel like this.
cass
in reply to loopgru • • •One solution I've seen has been to enable "hybrid sleep", where you can have it sleep for some period of time (30m) and afterward go to hibernate.
I still need to check in on it, but one of the biggest issues with sleep on Framework laptop is that the usb-c adapters (like HDMI) passively draw power. If you use 4 usb-c (or just leave it empty), you have better sleep experience.
kelvie
in reply to cass • • •Enable hibernate during lockdown
Gistlike this
cymor and sixapples like this.
Avid Amoeba
in reply to kelvie • • •like this
cymor and sixapples like this.
Avid Amoeba
in reply to cass • • •cass likes this.
dark_stang
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I don't think you can go wrong with either. But I love that I can swap my ports around on my framework laptop. Especially after my display port got broken last year (cable got snagged). Instead of it being damaged until I replaced the laptop, I ordered a new module for $20.
Eta: I'd love to see a partnership between them in the future.
like this
XPost3000, Guilty Tangent, wintermute, Bene7rddso, Kaan, floridaman, that_one_guy, Daniel Phan, sleepmode, StealThisComment, TheButtonJustSpins, mexicancartel, KbudE, const_void, Oinks, eshep, joucker29 and topRamen like this.
Gianni R
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
morhp, StarkillerX42, Acheron, that_one_guy, Chrobin, Guilty Tangent, 17451k, notenoughbutter, Bartsbigbugbag and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
don't like this
/dev/null, const_void, azuth and GbyBE don't like this.
Nuuskis9
Unknown parent • • •Avid Amoeba likes this.
gortbrown
in reply to MashingBundle • • •As someone who has been plagued by broken, hard to repair laptops before, I went for the Framework Laptop. Of course, your needs and wants might be different.
System 76 laptops are probably a bit better for Linux considering they were built specifically for it. They also have more variety in what kind of laptop you can get, whereas the Framework only comes in a 13 inch "ultrabook" form factor and a future 16 inch gaming laptop. And battery life I believe is a bit better than the Framework.
However, Framework still works really well with Linux (I use Linux Mint on mine, and it works great.) And the flexibility in being able to repair, upgrade and customize your laptop is really nice. Plus, the battery thing is slowly but surely getting fixed, and while it's still not entirely great, it has gotten me through the day as a computer science student.
like this
XPost3000, Provider, steal_your_face, Guilty Tangent, Bene7rddso, floridaman, StarkillerX42, Chrobin, clodimus, that_one_guy, Daniel Phan, GHOSCHT, Sarcasmo220, katie, not_amm, igorkraw, Audrius, ABeeinSpace, StealThisComment, zagaberoo, Ricky, TheButtonJustSpins, ScreaminOctopus, mexicancartel, const_void, Oinks and Shin like this.
Sarcasmo220
in reply to gortbrown • • •like this
Solemn, ABeeinSpace, TheButtonJustSpins and Oinks like this.
conorab
in reply to gortbrown • • •
... show moreI have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this. In 2018 I bought an Oryx Pro specifically because of this and because at the time JB was advertising them as "machines born to run Linux". However, this was not the case. The machine would constantly fail to resume from sleep and when it did, the wired network adapter would sometimes stop working until you rebooted the machine. This was on Pop!OS. The wired network adapter issue did not occur on Debian Testing at the time, but at this point I was just doing all the same workarounds on a System76 machine that I would have to do on any other machine, which completely defeated the point of buying a machine "born to run Linux". I ended up returning the machine despite this meaning that I would lose $1000 AUD in shipping (roughly $500 AUD each way). System76 di
I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this. In 2018 I bought an Oryx Pro specifically because of this and because at the time JB was advertising them as "machines born to run Linux". However, this was not the case. The machine would constantly fail to resume from sleep and when it did, the wired network adapter would sometimes stop working until you rebooted the machine. This was on Pop!OS. The wired network adapter issue did not occur on Debian Testing at the time, but at this point I was just doing all the same workarounds on a System76 machine that I would have to do on any other machine, which completely defeated the point of buying a machine "born to run Linux". I ended up returning the machine despite this meaning that I would lose $1000 AUD in shipping (roughly $500 AUD each way). System76 did refund the cost of the machine as promised though and I appreciated the honesty and professionalism from their support. I believe the network issue was due to a regression in the kernel which had not yet trickled all the way down. To be fair, maybe System76 have ironed these issues out on their new machines.
Don't buy a machine from a manufacturer because they specifically sell Linux laptops hoping that it means you won't run in to any issues. Do some research on the model you're looking to buy for any issues with the distro you want to run and make your decision from there. The Ubuntu computer certifications are really useful here. I believe Ubuntu tested the ThinkPad P52 I bought afterwards and said everything but the fingerprint sensor worked, but to NEVER turn on one of the BIOS options because I would brick the machine, so I knew this before buying the ThinkPad and could make an informed decision.
The one advantage you might get with a Linux manufacturer is that they might be able to help if there is an issue, where-as you might have to hide the fact you run Linux from other manufacturers.
like this
StealThisComment, jellyfish, omenmis, gullywasher, TheButtonJustSpins, katie, Oinks, joucker29, Aio and cymor like this.
Avid Amoeba
in reply to gortbrown • • •like this
omenmis, shirro, TheButtonJustSpins, ScreaminOctopus, katie, CCF_100, mexicancartel, derrg, azuth, Oinks, phillipp and axelf like this.
bloodfart
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I’m not trying to start shit, but someone’s gotta ask:
With all the bad experiences itt from owners of both companies products, why not just get a thinkpad or mbp? You can still get socketed everything in the t and p series and eventually there’ll be Linux on the m1&2.
I could see buying framework or s76 if you were getting a good open laptop but at the place both companies products seem to be why not buy a known good computer and donate some money to whatever group is doing the work you wanna see done?
like this
gadgetzombie, morhp, Foxientist, gronjo45, that_one_guy, Daniel Phan, cheeseburger, OrNotToBee, dvb, jawnn, Ricky, TheButtonJustSpins, KbudE and KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ like this.
don't like this
cynetri (he/any), OrNotToBee, Rolando, mexicancartel, const_void, azuth and rglullis don't like this.
monotrox
in reply to bloodfart • • •like this
floridaman, cynetri (he/any), 17451k, sleepmode, StealThisComment, zagaberoo, Ricky, mexicancartel, Oinks and Avid Amoeba like this.
kelvie
in reply to bloodfart • • •like this
that_one_guy, katie, notenoughbutter, StealThisComment, Ricky, GravityAce, TheButtonJustSpins, mexicancartel, const_void, azuth, Oinks and Avid Amoeba like this.
Sarcasmo220
in reply to bloodfart • • •azuth doesn't like this.
Avid Amoeba
in reply to bloodfart • • •like this
Bartsbigbugbag, pssk, LiveLM, TheButtonJustSpins, ScreaminOctopus, katie, mexicancartel, azuth, Oinks and cymor like this.
const_void
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •Avid Amoeba
in reply to const_void • • •const_void likes this.
bloodfart
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •I just picked two good computers, one that’s pretty modular. How are thinkpad motherboards not replaceable anymore? I was under the impression they have an fru number and everything still…
I haven’t seen any framework modules up on eBay, but maybe I didn’t use the right p/n search.
Avid Amoeba
in reply to bloodfart • • •ThinkPad motherboards are replaceable per se. However it's more work and you have to actually find a board. When I said they're not replaceable I meant easily replaceable, I should have qualified it. Framework's boards are sold directly by Framework. You know what you're getting. There's availability. There's warranty. The replacement is trivial. Thanks to the internally standardised form factor you don't even need the exact board gen to get going. Say if yours dies in 4 years and they no longer make it, a later gen board that fits the chassis will be available as a drop-in replacement.
I had a USB port fail on my 11th gen Intel Framework. They sent me a replacement motherboard along with a link to the instructions for replacing it. It took me under 10 minutes to swap it. It was amazing. Just opening up a ThinkPad these days without breaking a plastic clip could take as much.
bloodfart
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •Avid Amoeba
in reply to bloodfart • • •Most likely the same as what I would do when Lenovo stops making spare boards for the model I have and I can no longer find any on eBay - bin it.
Except in the case of Framework going under, it's much easier for another manufacturer to release a compatible motherboard since the form factor is published and fairly simple. Similar to why it's easy to replace my desktop's motherboard even when the original one is no longer made. If anything, the current OEM making the motherboards could keep making replacements on the same tooling after Framework is gone, so long as there are people buying them.
bloodfart
in reply to Avid Amoeba • • •I wonder if theres a jlcpcb/pcbway/whatever equivalent for board assembly. Like if you have the gerbers getting boards is easy and cheap but the gcode for pick and place and reflow machines is specific and has spin up costs.
What I’m getting at is: does open sourcing the layouts and boms help?
Holli25
in reply to bloodfart • • •bloodfart
in reply to Holli25 • • •Holli25
in reply to bloodfart • • •KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ
in reply to bloodfart • • •MyNameIsFred
in reply to bloodfart • • •I know this thread is a tad old but I’ve been considering a framework for the family laptop for a while. Problem is stocking and this recent 16 model run also had 13 orders run too. I won’t pay for a unit months in advance. It ruins certain protections from the merchant (like failure to deliver).
Instead I got a thinkpad t480 for like 400 bucks. It will do fine as a laptop mostly used for chrome, paying bills or zoom calls etc.
Nuuskis9
Unknown parent • • •like this
TheButtonJustSpins, Avid Amoeba and everett like this.
Nuuskis9
Unknown parent • • •like this
Bartsbigbugbag and Avid Amoeba like this.
TheButtonJustSpins doesn't like this.
ripe_banana
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I think using a framework is a unique experience. I don't worry about breaking it nearly as much as I did with my old thinkpads. Like my hardware key shorted itself and took my usb port with it. But, instead of it costing me a new laptop, it was 1 week, ~$10, and I was back in business.
Also, Linux support has been great so far. The only thing I had to do was install the brightness stuff they document.
I also heard they're working on coreboot, so that may be a thing. Also the fact that the motherboard is released to all repair shops is quite nice (at least there is some potential for some type of community audit).
Also, the laptop is super slick. The only complaint I have is maybe the battery life, but I'm not on the newest generation, and I don't know what has changed. Highly recommend.
[RESPONDED] Coreboot on the Framework Laptop
Framework Communitylike this
sorrybookbroke, SummerIsTooWarm, Guilty Tangent, moormaan, Red5, 𝒍𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒏𝒏, 17451k, katie, igorkraw, Audrius, Solemn, Neeen, ABeeinSpace, Alatain, StealThisComment, Stety, kavotaman, Ricky, Arcanum, pssk, TheButtonJustSpins, MrOzwaldMan, mexicancartel, bobthecowboy, const_void, Scyther, Oinks, Corgisocks, joucker29, Educatedguess, InstantWeasel, cymor, XLRV, MigratingtoLemmy and userptr like this.
egonallanon
in reply to ripe_banana • • •like this
Arcanum, TheButtonJustSpins, MisterD, Oinks, joucker29 and XLRV like this.
ripe_banana
in reply to egonallanon • • •Battery
Frameworklike this
TheButtonJustSpins, katie and Oinks like this.
0x2d
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
mexicancartel, const_void and joucker29 like this.
Random Dent
in reply to 0x2d • • •like this
TheButtonJustSpins, mexicancartel and const_void like this.
mexicancartel
in reply to 0x2d • • •const_void likes this.
shirro
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I bought a Framework DIY. I live in regional Australia and being able to order parts to install myself and extend the longevity of my system was decisive. The Framework was a compromise on specs and wasn't my first choice but nothing compares for sustainability and serviceability. I sourced ram and nvme locally and installed Arch.
System76 are a bit of a fantasy for me. I looked at them for years but I don't want to pay a premium then deal with international RMA on a rebadged Clevo. I always bought whatever looked good in locally available Windows laptops instead before Framework.
Now I am in the ecosystem I very selfishly want Framework to succeed and guarantee my access to upgrades and parts. I respect System76's mission and understand why people would wish to support them, particularly when their own laptop designs start shipping. System76's focus on North America and dependence on white box laptops hasn't delivered as well in my opinion, at least for my needs.
System76 have tried hard to improve openness and repairability but their laptops are still disposabl
... show moreI bought a Framework DIY. I live in regional Australia and being able to order parts to install myself and extend the longevity of my system was decisive. The Framework was a compromise on specs and wasn't my first choice but nothing compares for sustainability and serviceability. I sourced ram and nvme locally and installed Arch.
System76 are a bit of a fantasy for me. I looked at them for years but I don't want to pay a premium then deal with international RMA on a rebadged Clevo. I always bought whatever looked good in locally available Windows laptops instead before Framework.
Now I am in the ecosystem I very selfishly want Framework to succeed and guarantee my access to upgrades and parts. I respect System76's mission and understand why people would wish to support them, particularly when their own laptop designs start shipping. System76's focus on North America and dependence on white box laptops hasn't delivered as well in my opinion, at least for my needs.
System76 have tried hard to improve openness and repairability but their laptops are still disposable at end of life while Framework have made a huge leap with upgradability that has the potential to reduce ewaste and I want to see how far that model can be pushed.
like this
Ricky, luchs, Arcanum, blujan, featherfurl, TheButtonJustSpins, LiveLM, ScreaminOctopus, katie, MrOzwaldMan, filister, jayandp, TheRecipeOfHolyWater, const_void, recursive_recursion [they/them], derrg, ki11errabbit, Oinks, rglullis, phillipp, TrivialBetaState, ReakDuck, themarty27, bob, joucker29, 8Bitz0, binarious, dkt, Amadeus Paulussen, exu, Secret300, cymor, blackluster117, CallumWells, moritz, _s10e, feyded1020, pitl, Shin, Scroll Responsibly, toastedenough, falx, rdbell, axelf and ripe_banana like this.
filister
in reply to shirro • • •like this
phillipp, ReakDuck and joucker29 like this.
don't like this
charje, merehap, Archy, CallumWells, Jerkface and axelf don't like this.
flakusha
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
Firipu, gballantine, pssk, LiveLM, MrOzwaldMan, Scyther and blackluster117 like this.
Firipu
in reply to flakusha • • •like this
gballantine, TheButtonJustSpins, flakusha, LiveLM, Scyther, blackluster117 and everett like this.
spookedbyroaches
Unknown parent • • •dizzy
in reply to MashingBundle • • •TUXEDO Computers
www.tuxedocomputers.comlike this
const_void, eshep, TrivialBetaState, Maturi0n, Hepco, Blamemeta and blackluster117 like this.
binarious doesn't like this.
Maturi0n
in reply to dizzy • • •like this
dizzy and blackluster117 like this.
_s10e
in reply to dizzy • • •I have bought 2 tuxedos and they were okay.
One time they shipped a device where the trackpad did not work. Well, not on Linux at least. Their excuse: The hardware manufacturer chose a newer model not yet supported.
They were helpful and provided a new firmware a few days later, which did solve the issue, but out-of-the-box experience was not exciting.
I'm still using this machine, however.
Both this and a model I bought earlier felt cheaper than the price point. Maybe it is not fair; maybe it's not that important, but at 1000€+ I have some expection on build quantity and loooks.
Those are small things, sure, but they are not perfect, yet.
dizzy
in reply to _s10e • • •Thanks for the insight, I’ve been looking at replacing an aging thinkpad that I use to tinker with linux on but not much else on. I keep fluctuating between getting their one of their most basic models and using it as a tinkering machine or completely maxing the specs and using it as my primary machine and fully switching to desktop Linux.
Your insight has made this decision harder so… thanks? Haha!
like this
_s10e likes this.
eshep
in reply to MashingBundle • •TrivialBetaState likes this.
binarious doesn't like this.
Linux reshared this.
binarious
in reply to eshep • • •Linux reshared this.
eshep
in reply to binarious • •WOW, 4/6 sounds like some higher than average odds, that really sucks. I hope you at least gotten it all resolved, money back, or found what works for you. I had a battery swell up on me a couple years in but that's quite common and expected in my work environment. Extremely easy fix as well as they used a common, easy to source battery.
I've not tried a huge sampling of different ones (3~4), but I've yet to run across a USB-C dock that didn't work for me under gentoo.
The LVFS thing doesn't really bother me as much as the still delayed coreboot/libreboot they're working on. Most people couldn't care less about either of those things, and they're not a show-stopper for me, so it still remains at the top of my very light recommendations list.
Linux reshared this.
binarious
in reply to eshep • • •Thank you. RMA procedure is still in progress, but their support is nice and I'm hopeful to get it sorted.
Interesting. I've tried around 5 docks from which only 1 worked correctly. Mostly issues with 4K at 60hz. Other notebooks worked well with the ones the tuxedos struggled.
I agree, the manual EC/BIOS updates aren't very nice, but not a show-stopper. Coreboot has been promised for quite some time now and they're still searching a coreboot dev. Maybe this will be a thing someday, but I don't think we'll see that soon reading their responses regarding this on reddit.
eshep likes this.
Linux reshared this.
binarious
Unknown parent • • •Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.comlike this
cymor, blackluster117 and deadlock like this.
CrypticCoffee
Unknown parent • • •like this
survive and Klaymore like this.
Sparrow doesn't like this.
topRamen
in reply to MashingBundle • • •like this
svahnen, ZeroXHunter, cymor, blackluster117, CallumWells, pitl, toastedenough, rdbell, ScareEm, highduc and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
Rassilonian Legate
in reply to topRamen • • •like this
topRamen, Wolfram, pitl and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
NaoPb
in reply to MashingBundle • • •Sadly I cannot. And so I am still stuck with decades old closed source hardware. But at least I'm running Linux on it.
like this
Antiques, highduc and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
CodeBlooded doesn't like this.
Papamousse
in reply to NaoPb • • •I'm using Dell laptop, they are still supported even the 6 or 7 years old one, with new bios fixing CVE, etc and some of them were even sold with Linux at the time!
I bought a E5470 (core I5 6th gen) I love it, less than 200$, 8GB of ram, 14" 1080p IPS, 256GB SSD. Full repair manual available, etc.
I'm running MX Linux on it
like this
NaoPb and martinb like this.
NaoPb
in reply to Papamousse • • •MX Linux is great. Even voor systems specced lower than that. I bet that runs like a dream flr you.
I think it's nice how Dell still supports these. I've always been fond of the Latitude laptops with their ruggedness.
Papamousse
in reply to NaoPb • • •sounddrill
in reply to Papamousse • • •The ubuntu versions are often cheaper!
However, they're very bloated
slembcke
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I bought a System76 Lemur a few years ago. It has a pretty standard ultra-book form factor, but is pretty light, and the battery life was phenomonal. I regularly got 20+ hours on a single charge when doing light development work. The IPS screen was good, the trackpad was nice, the keyboard was ok, and the speakers are... well, completely terrible. I never really had any software issues on it running Pop. Maybe it would get stuck coming out of suspend every few months or so? I liked it a lot as an upgrade from my 2013 MacBook Air.
BUT....
Support was pretty awful, and I'm not sure I'd recommend getting one because of it unfortunately. :( Out of the box, the ctrl key was bad and would unclip with a nasty "crunch" noise. I had to send it in to get that fixed, though it was pretty painless. Then a few months later the wifi card died, and I had to send it in again. There was a lot of back and forth to get it fixed that time. Then as it was about to got out of warranty it died again. This time was like pulling teeth. I had to triple check things and send them logs multiple t
... show moreI bought a System76 Lemur a few years ago. It has a pretty standard ultra-book form factor, but is pretty light, and the battery life was phenomonal. I regularly got 20+ hours on a single charge when doing light development work. The IPS screen was good, the trackpad was nice, the keyboard was ok, and the speakers are... well, completely terrible. I never really had any software issues on it running Pop. Maybe it would get stuck coming out of suspend every few months or so? I liked it a lot as an upgrade from my 2013 MacBook Air.
BUT....
Support was pretty awful, and I'm not sure I'd recommend getting one because of it unfortunately. :( Out of the box, the ctrl key was bad and would unclip with a nasty "crunch" noise. I had to send it in to get that fixed, though it was pretty painless. Then a few months later the wifi card died, and I had to send it in again. There was a lot of back and forth to get it fixed that time. Then as it was about to got out of warranty it died again. This time was like pulling teeth. I had to triple check things and send them logs multiple times, each time with a turnaround of several days. It took weeks for them to finally say "sounds like a hardware issue, what would you like us to do?". I was flabergasted. It was still in warranty, why would you even ask that?! I spent several weeks trying to convince them my in warranty device needed repairs and they wanted to know if I wanted it fixed?! It took 6 weeks in total to get it fixed, and it turned out that it was a bad connector on the motherboard causing the issues the whole time. When I got it back it was missing a couple screws and the power supply. They basically called me a liar. -_- A couple weeks ago it died completely and won't power on anymore. I chatted with support again, but they just started giving me the same run-around. I gave up.
I pre-ordered an AMD Framework back in March. Now I'm kinda grumpy because I have no laptop and I bought one that might not ship for another month or two. I wasn't too worried if the AMD Framework had some early adopter issues as the Lemur still worked when I put in the pre-order. Grrr. -_- My old 2013 MacBook Air is still in pristine condition though... Considering just putting Linux on that to use for a few months.
like this
Sethayy, XLRV, human_no_4815162342, atimholt, CodeBlooded, kai, midnightmuni, oldfart, TheButtonJustSpins and 30p87 like this.
fxdave
in reply to slembcke • • •like this
XLRV and TheButtonJustSpins like this.
slembcke
in reply to fxdave • • •Yeah... I'm really conflicted about it. I think my Lemur was a lemon, and I'd be perfectly happy with it if I never had to deal with support. It's not secret that the hardware is rebranded, and what they do is to make the firmware/software work well. That part was honestly great! Their also pretty RTR friendly and publish a lot of information about taking things apart and whatnot. On the other hand... I'm not equipped to fix a motherboard, and why would I want to when it's still in warranty? Spending weeks to convince them that the hardware did in fact fail was... Augh! Having it returned without the power supply and missing screws, then being told I was mistaken was straight up insulting. :(
For as grumpy about RTR as Apple is today, in the past at least I found their service to be pretty excellent. On multiple occasions I got free repairs or battery replacements on machines that were out of warranty and frankly just... worn out. The one time I actually had to send one off for repair it was back on my desk in a matter of days. I haven't been their customer in 10 years, and
... show moreYeah... I'm really conflicted about it. I think my Lemur was a lemon, and I'd be perfectly happy with it if I never had to deal with support. It's not secret that the hardware is rebranded, and what they do is to make the firmware/software work well. That part was honestly great! Their also pretty RTR friendly and publish a lot of information about taking things apart and whatnot. On the other hand... I'm not equipped to fix a motherboard, and why would I want to when it's still in warranty? Spending weeks to convince them that the hardware did in fact fail was... Augh! Having it returned without the power supply and missing screws, then being told I was mistaken was straight up insulting. :(
For as grumpy about RTR as Apple is today, in the past at least I found their service to be pretty excellent. On multiple occasions I got free repairs or battery replacements on machines that were out of warranty and frankly just... worn out. The one time I actually had to send one off for repair it was back on my desk in a matter of days. I haven't been their customer in 10 years, and it sounds like it's probably changed though. (shrug)
TheButtonJustSpins likes this.
gutter564
in reply to MashingBundle • • •toastedenough
in reply to gutter564 • • •grue
in reply to MashingBundle • • •ĐɄɄĐ likes this.
InFerNo
in reply to grue • • •ĐɄɄĐ likes this.
grue
in reply to InFerNo • • •I dunno, probably? 🤷 I don't actually own one.
I have a desktop for gaming and anything else that takes real power, so I wouldn't really care about my laptop's performance.
KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ
in reply to MashingBundle • • •I don't get the hype of paying a premium for these laptops over just doing the research required to make sure you get one that will work fine with Linux instead, for much less.
A modularized laptop is cool but how often are you really going to want to mess with a laptop once it's working anyway?
ChocoLemming doesn't like this.
slembcke
in reply to KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ • • •ĐɄɄĐ likes this.
spookedbyroaches
Unknown parent • • •like this
ChocoLemming likes this.