Just read that #calckey.social defederated at least one major server (the biggest UK #Mastodon instance) preventing their users interacting and exchanging with each other. Not sure how this walled bubble approach fits in with the enthusiastic attempts to place calckey.social as some kind of mainstream alternative to #Mastodon, but the Calckey grandees may know... I am off for good, I like to make my own decisions on a server with mature and non-arbitrary admin policies. @fediversenews
choyer
in reply to choyer • • •@fediversenews
Blake Leonard
in reply to choyer • • •From what I've seen there tend to be very good reasons for defederating from servers (i.e. hate speech, mods are asleep and that instance is being spammed with nazi shit, etc). Calckey doesn't have the public block list Mastodon has, so it doesn't show block reasons unfortunately.
Ada
in reply to choyer • • •The ability to federate or defederate with other instances means that people can choose their own preferred risk profiles and join a community that matches it.
My community is a queer and gender diverse focused community. So we try to make and sustain an environment where our community members can exist with their barriers down a little bit, where they don't have to live on edge all the time, worried about a hateful transphobe dropping in to their mentions.
And so, to that end, we pre-emptively block a lot of spaces where transphobes hang out.
Now that's not for everyone. Some people prefer to choose for themselves, and that's great, but it means that often, you are blocking etc after receiving abuse. That's ok for some folk, and not for others.
The strength of the fediverse is that communities that favour both approaches exist, and you can find the one that fits your preference.
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Blake Leonard
in reply to Ada • • •Officially Tara 🕷️ :ms_bat: 🌹
in reply to Blake Leonard • • •@ada @choyer @fediversenews
Blake Leonard
in reply to Officially Tara 🕷️ :ms_bat: 🌹 • • •Officially Tara 🕷️ :ms_bat: 🌹
in reply to Blake Leonard • • •@ada @choyer @fediversenews
eri :floofMischief:
in reply to Officially Tara 🕷️ :ms_bat: 🌹 • • •LGBTQIA+ Tech Mastodon
Mastodon hosted on tech.lgbthttps://calckey.social/users/9ch6n4m2kn
in reply to Blake Leonard • • •tsadilas
in reply to Blake Leonard • • •Kashif Shah
in reply to Ada • • •eshep
in reply to Ada • •Fediverse News reshared this.
brielle bouquet 💐
in reply to Ada • • •no principle or structure or ideal for How Things Should Be is more important than protecting people from harm and abuse. nobody said allowing marginalized people access to social media on equal ground would be perfectly smooth or easy. but it's better here than literally everywhere else bc of instance blocks.
Ada
in reply to brielle bouquet 💐 • • •PhilipKing
in reply to brielle bouquet 💐 • • •The gatekeeping approach to Mastodon is highly problematic.
Jo (she/they)
in reply to brielle bouquet 💐 • • •Thomas
in reply to Ada • • •Fullack!
IMO the Fediverse is made for many small instances of approx. 1k to 10k users.
E.g. regional instances on a certain field(s) of interest. Those regional instances federated to bigger 'cities', 'counties',...
So the last step of mastodon suggesting mastodon.social as instance without mentioning others is contraproductive.
It would be a better choice to favour regions or interest groups over one 'monster instance'.
PhilipKing
in reply to Ada • • •The sort of gatekeeping that sees whole instances being blocked or defederated is highly problematic and lacks self awareness.
Mastodon already has enough problems with UX and for users to find their instance blocked or their friends blocked would be the final straw. At the very best you’ll end up with tiny enclaves.
Jono Ferguson
in reply to PhilipKing • • •We are all adults, we don't have to stay on an instance whose values don't align with our own.
We can be on multiple instances.
Ada
in reply to PhilipKing • • •I'm not telling you that you need to let someone make your moderation decisions for you, and similarly, you don't get to tell me that I should subject myself to abusive people because it's more ideologically pure in your mind
PhilipKing
in reply to Ada • • •1) What if a group of people join your instance who you disapprove or may be abusive? e.g the instance changes character due to an admin change.
2) What happens if your instance is the one that’s defederated or blocked so that you can’t migrate your account elsewhere.
3) What happens if your friends are on instances which are subsequently blocked?
1/2
Ada
in reply to PhilipKing • • •I have lived abuse first hand. I am comfortable taking steps to make sure that my community doesn't have to deal with it. You won't find the right words to suddenly make me think that it's ok.
Imperfections in the process can be fixed
PhilipKing
in reply to Ada • • •Ada
in reply to PhilipKing • • •PhilipKing
in reply to Ada • • •In fact defederation is a good example of a centralised approach. People should be free to enjoy their experience without gatekeeping.
PhilipKing
in reply to Ada • • •It’s not like shutting a door to keep people out. It’s like boarding up the door of someone else’s house so they can’t get in or out. You’re trapped in side and they’re coming through the windows.
2/2
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Ada • • •When POC and/or members of the LGBTQIA+ community complain about hate speech or even harassment that comes in from certain under-moderated instances in droves, and they say that the only way to stop this is by blocking the whole instance, then there are always white cishet men telling them to grow a pair, deal with it and block the individual users themselves, one by one.
It's easy to tell people how to deal with bullying if you've never been bullied yourself. And it's just as likely for this advice to be bad.
@PhilipKing @choyer
Kaity A
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •The horror!
We must prevent this travesty from happening, lest it may happen to other cis-het white men!
https://kitchenparty.online/users/01GNMTYTSFMTM7SXADPT4MEAFP
in reply to Ada • • •Defederation is not a bad thing. Every other major social media website in the world is currently defederated from every other, and this is considered normal even when the reason behind it is exploiting, rather than protecting, end users.
The model here is "a million independent websites, voluntarily hosting each others content", and some of those websites just aren't going to want to host some of the others', for whatever reason they choose.
This is what active, independent, moderation and administration is.
Pretending we're all in one central place, just with a bunch of random domain names dangling off of our names, is not just a recipe for disappointment, but it's fundamentally just not true.
The delusion is what causes the pain, and it's a symptom of wanting and expecting a centralized site.
@PhilipKing@mastodon.social@choyer@mastodon.social@fediversenews@venera.social
PhilipKing
in reply to • • •Why should users suffer or lose access to their accounts because of this?
https://kitchenparty.online/users/01GNMTYTSFMTM7SXADPT4MEAFP
in reply to PhilipKing • • •Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and even sites like PayPal or eBay will arbitrarily shut down accounts that get reported without good reason, or that they otherwise identify as bad for business.
Meanwhile, this isn't even about losing access to your account. It's about your account losing access to other websites.
@ada@blahaj.zone@fediversenews@venera.social@choyer@mastodon.social
PhilipKing
in reply to • • •Bam
in reply to PhilipKing • • •PhilipKing
in reply to Bam • • •Bam
in reply to PhilipKing • • •Bam
in reply to Bam • • •https://kitchenparty.online/users/01GNMTYTSFMTM7SXADPT4MEAFP
in reply to Bam • • •The entire history of social media, going all of the way back to BBSes, is one of accept that if you're not in control of wherever your history is, your history can and will be lost.
This is currently accepted on commercial social media and networking sights. It's a built in assumption.
Websites using ActivityPub aren't different or special in this regard. Trying to hold them to a hire standard is a bad faith position.
@PhilipKing@mastodon.social@ada@blahaj.zone@fediversenews@venera.social@choyer@mastodon.social
Meow :verified:
in reply to • • •The same can be said for a lot of cloud-based services. You're at the whim of your service provider and their higher ups.
Bam
in reply to Meow :verified: • • •Proving, once and for all, that the cats really are our overlords.
PhilipKing
in reply to • • •Why not? Why can’t Mastodon build in an export your posts feature?
Toby Inkster :verified:
in reply to Ada • • •StuartB
in reply to Ada • • •I'm lucky - as a middle-aged cis-het white man, I'm not subjected to the constant stream of abuse and threats many others get, and have the money, spoons, and technical know-how (just!) to run my own little personal server.
I like being able to choose with whom I federate, with whom I share my thoughts, and the bigots, the haters, the abusers, the MAGAts and Brexiters, are not those people.
<cont>
StuartB
in reply to StuartB • • •I'm also lucky enough to have hooked into the networks of some awesome admins who both introduce me to some awesome people, and provide one less vector for bad-faith actors to view or interact with my posts.
TL;DR - I support the right of any instance to defederate from any other, including my own.
Meljoann
in reply to Ada • • •John Gordon
in reply to choyer • • •It makes joining a server ever more fraught. Who is going to know ahead of time what to beware of? The barriers to entry grow. Migration works poorly, so mistakes have a cost.
I think many discussions will move to Bluesky. I hope the Fediverse will continue as well.
Aumetra Ⓐ :nonbinary: :good_boy:
in reply to choyer • • •It's a vital tool in keeping communities safe and healthy; especially the most vulnerable in the communities.
If you think this feature is not really useful or harmful even, you aren't part of the groups this feature intends to protect.
There are enough instances that don't block anyone and leave it up to the user to block the people they disagree with.
Instances with this laissez-faire approach to moderation just don't have a lot of visibility because joinmastodon.org, for example, has a server covenant that these servers aren't particularly compatible with, let's put it that way.
thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦
in reply to choyer • • •choyer
in reply to thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦 • • •https://calckey.social/users/9ch6n4m2kn
in reply to choyer • • •thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦
in reply to thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦 • • •choyer
in reply to thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦 • • •thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦
in reply to choyer • • •thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦
in reply to choyer • • •choyer
in reply to thegardendude 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦 • • •Blake Leonard
in reply to choyer • • •Calckey has "silence" per user, but not per instance, and I don't think it does the force-follow-request step. I think that's needed and it's probably coming.
ArtBear
in reply to choyer • • •Daily Twerk
in reply to choyer • • •I understand this arose over a moderation issue with someone posting homophobic messages. I may be wrong about this.
choyer
in reply to choyer • • •Jerry Lerman
in reply to choyer • • •eri :floofMischief:
Unknown parent • • •the roamer
in reply to choyer • • •Mastodonapp.uk is not on any of the Oliphant lists, not even on the very broad Tier-3 that requires only 2 instances requesting a block.
I won't let my access to mainstream Mastodon depend on a single admin who is at odds with all other instances.
PhilipKing
Unknown parent • • •1) The big issue with defederation is that many people who haven’t abused and haven’t any control over the instance will find their accounts cut off. Including people who themselves have been abused, or bullied and need support.
2) I’m not suggesting that that there be no way for people to prevent abuse. There needs to be better more focussed tools both at admin level and user level. 1/2
PhilipKing
in reply to PhilipKing • • •brielle bouquet 💐
Unknown parent • • •death is irreversible jones
in reply to PhilipKing • • •as for maintaining the network, of course that is already possible. migrating your network to another instance is trivial. (posts are sadly another story, but you didn’t mention them)
PhilipKing
in reply to death is irreversible jones • • •PhilipKing
Unknown parent • • •All they will know is that they can’t find their friends or access their account. That’s the problem to solve.
PhilipKing
Unknown parent • • •maegul
in reply to PhilipKing • • •And in general, that’s where the centralising effect of defederation practice comes from: many don’t understand and don’t like how it affects them and the easiest path to circumvent it’s effects is to move to a large/central instance.
Seirdy
in reply to PhilipKing • • •If users are unhappy with their social circle getting broken, they should demand better from their admins or choose an instance that aligns with their values.
Instances aren’t just infrastructure and vanity domain names: they’re the building blocks of communities, and their moderation actions—including defederations—are affirmations of shared community values.
POSSE note from https://seirdy.one/notes/2023/05/07/defederation-is-a-feature/
Defederation is a feature
Seirdy's HomePhilipKing
in reply to Seirdy • • •1/2
PhilipKing
in reply to PhilipKing • • •Seirdy
in reply to PhilipKing • • •PhilipKing
in reply to Seirdy • • •As I mentioned in my other post defederation can be enhanced to better protect people both from abuse and from account loss.
MB
in reply to PhilipKing • • •There should be the right to refederate (have all fediblocks lifted) once the issue has been resolved. There should be a right to appeal.
PhilipKing
Unknown parent • • •If you knew before signing up that you wouldn’t lose your posts or account then I’d join a smaller tailored instance.
PhilipKing
in reply to PhilipKing • • •Here’s a good example of how a misunderstanding can balloon and even when corrected still cause problems for completely innocent users. https://mastodonapp.uk/@wild1145/110326904785970653
maegul
Unknown parent • • •Ha, nope! It was mostly speculation about how a “force” would be created, though I have seen it in action from a few people on here.
Bam
Unknown parent • • •Actually, it was a George Martin reference, but thanks for letting me know who to block.