- yeah, I’m sure all settler Americans will happily give up their homes if armed First Nations people show up at their door, and all forcefully moved to, say, to the island of Manhattan.
As opposed to Christians and Muslims who consider multiple Countries “their own” where they are safe from persecution by other ethnic or religious majority groups, Jewish people unfortunately have only strip of land that they can consider home. And this is surrounded by countries which would like to see them annihilated. How about establishing several Jewish states spread around the world?
@tobias5X How about living all together and respecting each other? Personally I believe all religions are stupid but I won't mandate anyone anything. They all can do whatever the fuck they want inside their homes.
Problem with most religions is that they try to impose their rules on everyone or want a country of their own to not see other ways of doing things, cause are incapable of living in harmony.
@Johns_priv @tobias5X We have tried living all together and the way that usually works out is someone needs to distract from something and next thing you know everyone's living in peace and harmony and stolen Jewish homes. Atheist states do it, christians do it, muslims do it -- essentially everyone does it. name me a country that hasn't persecuted jews and I'll bet you it never had jews, not in significant numbers
@FishNamedDog @tobias5X Again with the persecution complex, Romani/gipsy peoples have been and continue to be more hated than Jews and you don't see them crying a thousand rivers everywhere.
I can tell you stories about how Catalans have been and continue to be treated by Spaniards, or about the Latin America genocide; well Spain has been horrible historically speaking, but no one alive is at fault so we should just try to live in harmony. Cause at the end of the day we're humans
Antisemitism is unique among hate. Jews are hated for: Being too capitalist Being too communist Being too white Being not white enough Being too weak Being too strong Being stateless Having a state
Jew hate morphs into whatever is seen as least desirable in the moment.
There is no need to elevate antisemitism as the ultimate, oldest, or most profound form of hatred, but I agree that this suggestion that people with a history of genocide and persecution should just get over it is pretty toxic.
History repeats itself. The Zionists ancestors weren't the first to live in Israel either. They started a war to take that land from even earlier inhabitants, namely the Palestinians. Sounds familiar, right?
I’m so disappointed in the Israeli people, but I am very much for the native people of America to have their land back… Honestly, as long as I can have a home here and garden along with them, that’s all I really ask for 😹. (I am an american if that wasn’t apparent before).
I haven't entertained the argument enough to know every detail about it, and I don't intend to, but I believe it goes something like, "Since history began", which is a shamelessly self-serving goalpost. Archaeologists can easily prove that humans have been living in the Levant for tens of thousands of years. But sure, if they didn't scratch some carbon deposits on papyrus, we're going to ignore that. It's childish, and it would be laughable if it wasn't so deadly and destructive.
I was raised in a Jewish neighborhood. My friend's grandparents had tattoos on their forearms. I learned early the difference btw #Zionist and #Jewish
The rhetoric of Zionism was deliberately & *consciously* modeled on the Manifest Destiny & Doctrine of Discovery 💩 our #USian SettlerColonizer forebears used to justify #Genocide against this #Indigenous population
The idea of territorial legitimacy (this is my land because God, because was hre before, because this and that) is a reactionary one, be it in favor of the ones who just arrived or those who were already here. If in addition one argues that the former or the latter are the legitimaye ones, it stinks even more. As if it wasn't enough, this is the best defense for anti-migrants policies. No, saying "they were here before" is not cool, no matter who "they" are.
I agree. None of it should be "owned" by anyone. In a fundamental way, we are all temporary hitchhikers and trespassers.
We should share what we happen to be born into, rather than to defend to death what we were never entitled to.
Also those who happen to be born outside the direct impact of centuries of cycles of violence have a *duty* to help break the cycles (rather than to fuel them to sustain their privilege).
Zionism is basically a reaction to the growing European nationalisms of the 19th century. With the mixture of antisemitism and nationalism brewing all over Europe, more and more Jewish thinkers came to the conclusion that Jews needed a nation of their own if they didn't want to get slaughtered by the nations of which they weren't allowed to become a fully accepted part because they had the wrong religion. The Jews didn't leave their land willingly, they were driven from their land by the Romans (because the Romans had had enough of religious unrest there). Centuries later under the Muslim rulers, some Jews returned, only to be driven from the land again by the Christians when they took it from the Muslims. If you look at the entire history of the so-called "Holy Land", you will see that peace has been rare there, and war rather common. Zionism began as a dream of finally having a home again after living in fear of pogroms and massacres for almost two millennia, and after the Nazis had murdered about half of all the Jews on the planet, many of the survivors were just fleeing
... show more
Zionism is basically a reaction to the growing European nationalisms of the 19th century. With the mixture of antisemitism and nationalism brewing all over Europe, more and more Jewish thinkers came to the conclusion that Jews needed a nation of their own if they didn't want to get slaughtered by the nations of which they weren't allowed to become a fully accepted part because they had the wrong religion. The Jews didn't leave their land willingly, they were driven from their land by the Romans (because the Romans had had enough of religious unrest there). Centuries later under the Muslim rulers, some Jews returned, only to be driven from the land again by the Christians when they took it from the Muslims. If you look at the entire history of the so-called "Holy Land", you will see that peace has been rare there, and war rather common. Zionism began as a dream of finally having a home again after living in fear of pogroms and massacres for almost two millennia, and after the Nazis had murdered about half of all the Jews on the planet, many of the survivors were just fleeing Europe and running towards that dream. Of course it turned into just another nightmare for the Arabs living in that region. Before the Nakba, many Zionists were trying to be good neighbours to the Arabs and live together with them; it was only when huge numbers of Jewish refugees from Europe came into the land in the 1940s that things started going sideways. And then there were plans to divide the land, and the Arabs wouldn't accept them, so they attacked Israel and tried to destroy it, again and again. And then the Israelis occupied what was meant to be the State of Palestine according to the plan, and then the religious nutters among the Israelis took that as a sign from God that they were meant to retake all of the land that used to be ruled by the Jewish kings of old, including large parts of Lebanon and Syria. It's all fucked up, it's a terrible mess, but Zionism didn't began as some evil ideology but as the dream of a people without a home to go back to their old home from which their ancestors had been driven ages ago, a dream that became the last hope of the hopeless after my grandparents' generation had tried to kill them all in one giant mass murder industry.
Unlike many other Germans, I don't think we can somehow repair the damage our people have done by supporting Israel. However, it is obvious that there needs to be some place in the world where Jews can feel safe, one place where they don't have to live in small pockets surrounded by goyim who might decide to kill them all next Thursday after lunch. And while their physical home might not have been anywhere close to the River Jordan for many centuries, their spiritual home, the centre of their entire religion, has always been Jerusalem. It is their tribal faith that kept them from getting absorbed by their surrounding cultures, from just vanishing into oblivion like so many other tribes driven from their ancestral lands by the Romans or any other empire, but it has also always made them a target.
That being said, it's all one giant clusterfuck, the Judeo-Fascists have taken over Israel and are trying to bring back the glorious Greater Israel of the Bronze Age, while many of the so-called freedom fighters on the Palestinian side are Islamo-Fascists who want to exterminate all the Jews just like the original German Nazis had tried. Both sides are horrible, all nations and all states and all borders are horrible, and I don't think there will be any kind of solution, only more violence, until at some time not too far into the future, the river dries out and the entire strip of land turns into an uninhabitable desert due to global warming. I don't expect anybody to be living there anymore 150 years from now, possibly even much earlier, as large parts of the planet become uninhabitable.
The entire idea that any piece of land belongs to anybody is something we need to let go, anyway. In the coming decades, the escalating climate chaos will turn more and more people into refugees as any semblance of normality just vanishes, and eventually, many of the surviving humans will adapt to a nomadic lifestyle. It won't be any empire's army that's driving the people from their homes, not the Romans evicting the Jews from Jerusalem, not the British destroying aboriginal villages, it will be freaky weather, dying rivers and rising seas that will make almost everybody lose their homes eventually. Things will get a lot worse. Fighting for a land that is going to die anyway just because of some old scriptures is sheer madness, but so is killing people just because they're different, and humans keep doing it.
That's why we cannot fight Zionism without fighting the antisemitism and fascism that lurks in our (Dutch, German etc.) societies. It's a package deal.
I agree. None of it should be "owned" by anyone. In a fundamental way, we are all temporary hitchhikers and trespassers.
We should share what we happen to be born into, rather than to defend to death what we were never entitled to.
Also those who happen to be born outside the direct impact of centuries of cycles of violence have a *duty* to help break the cycles (rather than to fuel them to sustain their privilege).
I believe Jews should have control of SOME of eretz yisrael for two reasons: 1) we are an indigenous group forcibly exiled as part of a settler-colonialist genocide, we never gave up the land & 2) all of this would be just 'nice', not 'needed' if the world could not kill us but NOTHING HAS WORKED and our history is no one taking us in and when 800k Jews were expelled from Arab lands Israel took them in and Zionism's pessimistic but the world hasn't exactly EARNED my trust. 1/?
Also, "white supremacy" is strange when we're talking about an ethnic group that even by the worst estimates is about ~1/2 Middle Eastern. FWIW, the other half is predominantly Italian and it doesn't take a genius to deduce that it probably didn't get in consensually -- they genocided us. in fact there was enough rape we became matrilineal. Also for much of our history we were a persecuted group with no legal recourse and conversion to judaism was banned. citations on request 2/2
*A lot* of people can trace ancestry to the land that Zionists colonized. Not in the least the people that were (and are being) murdered and expelled in the process.
If all of them would use that partial ancestry to claim the land, it would get very busy.
This applies to many places though. Imagine if all people who have at least one descendent from Rome would demand to be allowed to live in Rome.
In the end, it should not matter what group you (decide to) belong to, or where your ancestors lived thousands of years ago. Everyone should have enough. Everyone should be safe.
There are murderous ideologies that actively work against this, like white supremacy, colonialism, fascism, antisemitism and yes, also very much Zionism. It is a package deal: they need to be rooted out from our societies and from people's minds, for the sake of everything that is good.
Is it though? It's not "at least one descendant". It is consistently about half of our ancestry and there's a very strong reason to believe that a good portion of the remainder is from rape. And yes, I agree, blood quantums are BS. 1/2
First, if 2000 years ago down the matrilineal line some of your ancestors lived in that region, that does not mean half of your ancestors are from there.
If 2000 years ago one of my ancestors - after generations of living in Rome - moved to the Netherlands, are half of my ancestors from Rome?
Secondly, you can of course tell each other stories, for centuries, that some land belongs to you. That doesnt mean that it belongs to you.
You seem to assume that by sharing this meme I subscribe to the idea that the land belongs to whoever is most indigenous.
I don't care about who is most indigenous.
The crime of settler colonialism is not the settling, it is the colonialism.
For example: Syrian refugees are welcome in the Netherlands, as long as they don't put Dutch people in concentration camps, indiscriminately bomb cities and starve hundreds of thousands of little children.
So my reply was a lot longer than the Mastodon limits, so I did it as an image. Apologies for the small text and poor formatting. Mastodon is not suited to debate.
The point is that even this "Zionism light", which never happened because it consistently lost out to fascist Zionism, is already absolutely unacceptable.
You militarily invade a land, violently kick people out of their houses and then offer them "equal citizenship" in your new land? No thank you.
The reality is that the world has been sold this liberal delusion of Zionism light (the only democracy in the region, lmao) while in the meantime, the fascist version of Zionism always reigned supreme.
This has been - effectively - the function of "Zionism light": gaslighting the world. Selling a story of "democracy" to effectively create the conditions for colonial murder.
This genocide is not the product of the wrong kind of Zionism. It is the product of Zionism period.
The only way forward is thorough de-zionization as described by for example Omar Barghouti in "Organizing for self‐determination, ethical de‐Zionization and resisting apartheid".
1) AFAIK early Zionism was keen on negotiation, first with the Ottomans than the British, rather than military conquest, 2) since they weren't the government, Zionists up to '48 had to buy their land. 3) again though it is fairly easy to flip this argument around for Palestinians. By my estimates about 7.5% of the Palestinian legislature is NOT a member of a party that is/was a terrorist organization. For reference, 10 percent of the Knesset is Palestinian.
Look, not only has Israel (i.e. the Knesset) itself been a schoolbook example of a terrorist organization for decades, it is currently committing *genocide*.
It does not seem to sink in with people what genocide means.
Israel will never get to point to anyone for failing to fight "correctly". That ship has long sailed.
The worst that Hamas could ever do to Israel, is currently being done by Israel, to Palestinians.
and what makes it more ironic is modern day Israelis share the same name as the Israel of 2k years ago, but that’s about it. They’re not uniquely descendant from ancient Israelites.
Barry Cook 🇨🇦
in reply to Misha • • •Tobi
in reply to Misha • • •Johns
in reply to Tobi • • •@tobias5X How about living all together and respecting each other?
Personally I believe all religions are stupid but I won't mandate anyone anything. They all can do whatever the fuck they want inside their homes.
Problem with most religions is that they try to impose their rules on everyone or want a country of their own to not see other ways of doing things, cause are incapable of living in harmony.
Funny thing that.
a fish named dog ✡️♾️
in reply to Johns • • •Johns
in reply to a fish named dog ✡️♾️ • • •@FishNamedDog @tobias5X Again with the persecution complex, Romani/gipsy peoples have been and continue to be more hated than Jews and you don't see them crying a thousand rivers everywhere.
I can tell you stories about how Catalans have been and continue to be treated by Spaniards, or about the Latin America genocide; well Spain has been horrible historically speaking, but no one alive is at fault so we should just try to live in harmony. Cause at the end of the day we're humans
louis
in reply to Johns • • •@Johns_priv @FishNamedDog @tobias5X Wow. This is horrible.
“Oh poor Jews, get over it. 🙄”
Antisemitism is unique among hate. Jews are hated for:
Being too capitalist
Being too communist
Being too white
Being not white enough
Being too weak
Being too strong
Being stateless
Having a state
Jew hate morphs into whatever is seen as least desirable in the moment.
Antisemitism is the oldest hate.
Misha
in reply to louis • • •@louis @Johns_priv @FishNamedDog @tobias5X
There is no need to elevate antisemitism as the ultimate, oldest, or most profound form of hatred, but I agree that this suggestion that people with a history of genocide and persecution should just get over it is pretty toxic.
Harrie Breuker
in reply to Misha • • •Em & future cats 🇺🇦🐈🏳️🌈
in reply to Misha • • •WesDym
in reply to Misha • • •PeachMcD
in reply to Misha • • •I was raised in a Jewish neighborhood. My friend's grandparents had tattoos on their forearms. I learned early the difference btw #Zionist and #Jewish
The rhetoric of Zionism was deliberately & *consciously* modeled on the Manifest Destiny & Doctrine of Discovery 💩 our #USian SettlerColonizer forebears used to justify #Genocide against this #Indigenous population
Misha reshared this.
James Cameroun
in reply to Misha • • •Misha
in reply to James Cameroun • • •@ratel
I agree. None of it should be "owned" by anyone. In a fundamental way, we are all temporary hitchhikers and trespassers.
We should share what we happen to be born into, rather than to defend to death what we were never entitled to.
Also those who happen to be born outside the direct impact of centuries of cycles of violence have a *duty* to help break the cycles (rather than to fuel them to sustain their privilege).
Linda Rose Smit
in reply to Misha • • •Misha
in reply to Linda Rose Smit • • •ancient nation of the Middle East
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Linda Rose Smit
in reply to Misha • • •lin11c
in reply to Misha • • •Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC
in reply to Misha • • •Zionism is basically a reaction to the growing European nationalisms of the 19th century. With the mixture of antisemitism and nationalism brewing all over Europe, more and more Jewish thinkers came to the conclusion that Jews needed a nation of their own if they didn't want to get slaughtered by the nations of which they weren't allowed to become a fully accepted part because they had the wrong religion.
... show moreThe Jews didn't leave their land willingly, they were driven from their land by the Romans (because the Romans had had enough of religious unrest there). Centuries later under the Muslim rulers, some Jews returned, only to be driven from the land again by the Christians when they took it from the Muslims.
If you look at the entire history of the so-called "Holy Land", you will see that peace has been rare there, and war rather common. Zionism began as a dream of finally having a home again after living in fear of pogroms and massacres for almost two millennia, and after the Nazis had murdered about half of all the Jews on the planet, many of the survivors were just fleeing
Zionism is basically a reaction to the growing European nationalisms of the 19th century. With the mixture of antisemitism and nationalism brewing all over Europe, more and more Jewish thinkers came to the conclusion that Jews needed a nation of their own if they didn't want to get slaughtered by the nations of which they weren't allowed to become a fully accepted part because they had the wrong religion.
The Jews didn't leave their land willingly, they were driven from their land by the Romans (because the Romans had had enough of religious unrest there). Centuries later under the Muslim rulers, some Jews returned, only to be driven from the land again by the Christians when they took it from the Muslims.
If you look at the entire history of the so-called "Holy Land", you will see that peace has been rare there, and war rather common. Zionism began as a dream of finally having a home again after living in fear of pogroms and massacres for almost two millennia, and after the Nazis had murdered about half of all the Jews on the planet, many of the survivors were just fleeing Europe and running towards that dream. Of course it turned into just another nightmare for the Arabs living in that region. Before the Nakba, many Zionists were trying to be good neighbours to the Arabs and live together with them; it was only when huge numbers of Jewish refugees from Europe came into the land in the 1940s that things started going sideways.
And then there were plans to divide the land, and the Arabs wouldn't accept them, so they attacked Israel and tried to destroy it, again and again. And then the Israelis occupied what was meant to be the State of Palestine according to the plan, and then the religious nutters among the Israelis took that as a sign from God that they were meant to retake all of the land that used to be ruled by the Jewish kings of old, including large parts of Lebanon and Syria.
It's all fucked up, it's a terrible mess, but Zionism didn't began as some evil ideology but as the dream of a people without a home to go back to their old home from which their ancestors had been driven ages ago, a dream that became the last hope of the hopeless after my grandparents' generation had tried to kill them all in one giant mass murder industry.
Unlike many other Germans, I don't think we can somehow repair the damage our people have done by supporting Israel. However, it is obvious that there needs to be some place in the world where Jews can feel safe, one place where they don't have to live in small pockets surrounded by goyim who might decide to kill them all next Thursday after lunch. And while their physical home might not have been anywhere close to the River Jordan for many centuries, their spiritual home, the centre of their entire religion, has always been Jerusalem. It is their tribal faith that kept them from getting absorbed by their surrounding cultures, from just vanishing into oblivion like so many other tribes driven from their ancestral lands by the Romans or any other empire, but it has also always made them a target.
That being said, it's all one giant clusterfuck, the Judeo-Fascists have taken over Israel and are trying to bring back the glorious Greater Israel of the Bronze Age, while many of the so-called freedom fighters on the Palestinian side are Islamo-Fascists who want to exterminate all the Jews just like the original German Nazis had tried. Both sides are horrible, all nations and all states and all borders are horrible, and I don't think there will be any kind of solution, only more violence, until at some time not too far into the future, the river dries out and the entire strip of land turns into an uninhabitable desert due to global warming. I don't expect anybody to be living there anymore 150 years from now, possibly even much earlier, as large parts of the planet become uninhabitable.
The entire idea that any piece of land belongs to anybody is something we need to let go, anyway. In the coming decades, the escalating climate chaos will turn more and more people into refugees as any semblance of normality just vanishes, and eventually, many of the surviving humans will adapt to a nomadic lifestyle. It won't be any empire's army that's driving the people from their homes, not the Romans evicting the Jews from Jerusalem, not the British destroying aboriginal villages, it will be freaky weather, dying rivers and rising seas that will make almost everybody lose their homes eventually. Things will get a lot worse. Fighting for a land that is going to die anyway just because of some old scriptures is sheer madness, but so is killing people just because they're different, and humans keep doing it.
Misha
in reply to Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC • • •That's why we cannot fight Zionism without fighting the antisemitism and fascism that lurks in our (Dutch, German etc.) societies. It's a package deal.
Also see this comment: social.edu.nl/@MishaVelthuis/1…
And yes, the climate crisis is going to challenge our ability to deal with change. And that doesn't look great.
Misha
2025-08-09 23:38:15
Miss Warcraft
in reply to Misha • • •a fish named dog ✡️♾️
in reply to Misha • • •a fish named dog ✡️♾️
in reply to a fish named dog ✡️♾️ • • •citations on request
2/2
Misha
in reply to a fish named dog ✡️♾️ • • •*A lot* of people can trace ancestry to the land that Zionists colonized. Not in the least the people that were (and are being) murdered and expelled in the process.
If all of them would use that partial ancestry to claim the land, it would get very busy.
This applies to many places though. Imagine if all people who have at least one descendent from Rome would demand to be allowed to live in Rome.
This line of reasoning is madness.
1/2
Misha
in reply to Misha • • •@FishNamedDog
In the end, it should not matter what group you (decide to) belong to, or where your ancestors lived thousands of years ago. Everyone should have enough. Everyone should be safe.
There are murderous ideologies that actively work against this, like white supremacy, colonialism, fascism, antisemitism and yes, also very much Zionism. It is a package deal: they need to be rooted out from our societies and from people's minds, for the sake of everything that is good.
2/2
a fish named dog ✡️♾️
in reply to Misha • • •1/2
Misha
in reply to a fish named dog ✡️♾️ • • •@FishNamedDog
First, if 2000 years ago down the matrilineal line some of your ancestors lived in that region, that does not mean half of your ancestors are from there.
If 2000 years ago one of my ancestors - after generations of living in Rome - moved to the Netherlands, are half of my ancestors from Rome?
Secondly, you can of course tell each other stories, for centuries, that some land belongs to you. That doesnt mean that it belongs to you.
Thirdly, none of this matters. It is madness.
Misha
in reply to a fish named dog ✡️♾️ • • •@FishNamedDog
You seem to assume that by sharing this meme I subscribe to the idea that the land belongs to whoever is most indigenous.
I don't care about who is most indigenous.
The crime of settler colonialism is not the settling, it is the colonialism.
For example: Syrian refugees are welcome in the Netherlands, as long as they don't put Dutch people in concentration camps, indiscriminately bomb cities and starve hundreds of thousands of little children.
The problem is Zionism.
a fish named dog ✡️♾️
in reply to Misha • • •Misha
in reply to a fish named dog ✡️♾️ • • •The point is that even this "Zionism light", which never happened because it consistently lost out to fascist Zionism, is already absolutely unacceptable.
You militarily invade a land, violently kick people out of their houses and then offer them "equal citizenship" in your new land? No thank you.
1/3
Misha
in reply to Misha • • •@FishNamedDog
The reality is that the world has been sold this liberal delusion of Zionism light (the only democracy in the region, lmao) while in the meantime, the fascist version of Zionism always reigned supreme.
This has been - effectively - the function of "Zionism light": gaslighting the world. Selling a story of "democracy" to effectively create the conditions for colonial murder.
This genocide is not the product of the wrong kind of Zionism. It is the product of Zionism period.
2/3
Misha
in reply to Misha • • •@FishNamedDog
The only way forward is thorough de-zionization as described by for example Omar Barghouti in "Organizing for self‐determination, ethical de‐Zionization and resisting apartheid".
3/3
a fish named dog ✡️♾️
in reply to Misha • • •Misha
in reply to a fish named dog ✡️♾️ • • •@FishNamedDog
Look, not only has Israel (i.e. the Knesset) itself been a schoolbook example of a terrorist organization for decades, it is currently committing *genocide*.
It does not seem to sink in with people what genocide means.
Israel will never get to point to anyone for failing to fight "correctly". That ship has long sailed.
The worst that Hamas could ever do to Israel, is currently being done by Israel, to Palestinians.
zed
in reply to Misha • • •djsat2
in reply to Misha • • •Murat
in reply to Misha • • •thirdwave
muratk5n.github.io