In theory this is cool. In practice very few apps across the Linux spectrum will ever respect this. We for example try so hard with TROMjaro Linux to make pretty much all apps respect the system's theme. And we managed to do it. So if you switch from a dark to a light theme, some 90-95% of all apps will respect that theme. With Gnome if you do that, probably only 10% or less of all apps will respect that.
Actually because of libadwaita, that is behind this dark/light gnome mode, we see inconsistency in TROMjaro and all otehr distros.
So yeah...Gnome is making things more limited in fact, buy not allowing any custom theme to work with libadwaita.
I’ve been criticial of GNOME’s approach in the past before it was neither here nor there. I do see their decision to go with libadwaita as a positive step towards enforcing consistency, though.
The problem is they’re not an operating system. They’re a component used in multiple operating system.
The approach makes perfect sense if you think of what you’d want for an OS. And, I’d argue that they are defacto, part of an OS (given the Fedora/GNOME relationship)…
… I don’t think I have enough space to go into this properly here. But, basically, I feel that distributions would save themselves a lot of work (and free those resources for other aspects) if they adopted stock GNOME.
I really don’t think any distro building upon GNOME at this point is going to improve on the experience enough to warrant maintaining a fork.
Instead, I’d suggest working with GNOME to improve it for everyone…
… and, hopefully, in the process, create a consistent experience for people and an incentive for app devs to support standards like light/dark mode also.
It goes beyond aesthetics. The time/effort saved can go into implementing better accessibility, refining the experience of apps, etc.
This is at least how I feel now having used stock GNOME 42 on Fedora Silverblue for the past few months after several years on elementary OS.
PS. Thank you for the work you do; it’s inspiring 💕
Actually I have been complaining about accessibility. That this is not simply a design "issue". Gnome broke in the past 2 more essential things:
It removed the window top bar and inserted buttons on these bars, making it Client Side Decorations instead of System Side Decorations for windows. This itself severed several important features in linux that were using the top bar as a general window control (window buttons position, what buttons should be displayed, how big the top bar can be for people with disabilities, the window title bar that makes it easier for people to know what window is this for, and other many integrations).
Removing the global menus. Because of the new GTKs starting with the version 3 I think, global menus were ignored. I can't tell you how much of an issue this is for people with disabilities that could have used a screen reader or other kind of access to shuffle through app menus. HUD was broken for these apps.
And now they are breaking the theming.
Sorry this was a big messag... show more
Actually I have been complaining about accessibility. That this is not simply a design "issue". Gnome broke in the past 2 more essential things:
It removed the window top bar and inserted buttons on these bars, making it Client Side Decorations instead of System Side Decorations for windows. This itself severed several important features in linux that were using the top bar as a general window control (window buttons position, what buttons should be displayed, how big the top bar can be for people with disabilities, the window title bar that makes it easier for people to know what window is this for, and other many integrations).
Removing the global menus. Because of the new GTKs starting with the version 3 I think, global menus were ignored. I can't tell you how much of an issue this is for people with disabilities that could have used a screen reader or other kind of access to shuffle through app menus. HUD was broken for these apps.
And now they are breaking the theming.
Sorry this was a big message but I strongly believe that what Gnome is doing now is breaking all other distros, bit by bit, while trying to become a more closed environment, a sort of Apple of Linux.
We have been using Gnome for our TROMjaro for the past years and I can tell you from my experience it became so difficult to customize and add new functionalities to it that I had to eventually give up that and move to XFCE. In any case if you ever have some free time put TROMjaro https://www.tromjaro.com/ into Gnome Boxes and play with it. I'd be curious to see what you think of it.
PS. Thank you for the work you do; it’s inspiring 💕
I think maybe this libadwaita thing doesn't affect gnome users, so maybe they're not aware of the issues caused by this on other linux setups. I don't really know how these theming stuff works under the hood, but when I open a libadwaita app on XFCE it doesn't even respect my dark theme, this is bad for accessibility.
Also for TROMjaro its not just a branding thing, @tio tries very hard to make apps respect whichever theme the user chooses.
But the reality is that the implementation of libadwaita is affecting the other distros that are using Gnome apps (GTK4 + that library). The beauty of Linux is interoperability, variety, collaboration. Libadwaita breaks all of these. They should have at least do it in a way that theming was a functional thing for these apps.
They may want to make Gnome more consistent but they should not break what makes linux great, that interoperability, and diversity, and collaboration.
When any user installs a libadwaita Gnome app on their system, and they do not use Gnome, then this apps looks entirely different from the entire system, including the number of window buttons and their position.
I disagree with you that libadwaita makes sense because in the best case scenario they will create consistency on some 50% of Linux apps and only on Gnome. This is far from consistent and isolates Gnome further.
Screenshot of GNOME 42 desktop showing Elliott Shugerman’s light theme that includes the top bar and system menu. Files app is also open for comparison with the light mode window appearance.
I don't think making the panel and shell UI and the applications match in style is really "important" at all... I think having mixed light/dark elements can actually look nice and more calming than having a completely all-white UI
the design examples shown in the issue look especially harsh, like everything on the screen is trying to draw your attention at once
I respectfully disagree. While I have no objections to a setting for mixing and matching elements (just as I have no objections to apps implementing colour scheme override options so people can do so if they wish), the default should be that all elements of the interface are consistent with whatever colour scheme is selected. That’s the whole idea behind a colour scheme. And, for that matter, behind consistency in design :)
lebout2canap
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Tio
in reply to Aral Balkan • •Actually because of libadwaita, that is behind this dark/light gnome mode, we see inconsistency in TROMjaro and all otehr distros.
So yeah...Gnome is making things more limited in fact, buy not allowing any custom theme to work with libadwaita.
Dr. Percy reshared this.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Tio • • •The problem is they’re not an operating system. They’re a component used in multiple operating system.
The approach makes perfect sense if you think of what you’d want for an OS. And, I’d argue that they are defacto, part of an OS (given the Fedora/GNOME relationship)…
Dr. Percy reshared this.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •I really don’t think any distro building upon GNOME at this point is going to improve on the experience enough to warrant maintaining a fork.
Instead, I’d suggest working with GNOME to improve it for everyone…
Dr. Percy reshared this.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •It goes beyond aesthetics. The time/effort saved can go into implementing better accessibility, refining the experience of apps, etc.
This is at least how I feel now having used stock GNOME 42 on Fedora Silverblue for the past few months after several years on elementary OS.
PS. Thank you for the work you do; it’s inspiring 💕
Dr. Percy reshared this.
Tio
in reply to Aral Balkan • •- It removed the window top bar and inserted buttons on these bars, making it Client Side Decorations instead of System Side Decorations for windows. This itself severed several important features in linux that were using the top bar as a general window control (window buttons position, what buttons should be displayed, how big the top bar can be for people with disabilities, the window title bar that makes it easier for people to know what window is this for, and other many integrations).
- Removing the global menus. Because of the new GTKs starting with the version 3 I think, global menus were ignored. I can't tell you how much of an issue this is for people with disabilities that could have used a screen reader or other kind of access to shuffle through app menus. HUD was broken for these apps.
And now they are breaking the theming.Sorry this was a big messag... show more
- It removed the window top bar and inserted buttons on these bars, making it Client Side Decorations instead of System Side Decorations for windows. This itself severed several important features in linux that were using the top bar as a general window control (window buttons position, what buttons should be displayed, how big the top bar can be for people with disabilities, the window title bar that makes it easier for people to know what window is this for, and other many integrations).
- Removing the global menus. Because of the new GTKs starting with the version 3 I think, global menus were ignored. I can't tell you how much of an issue this is for people with disabilities that could have used a screen reader or other kind of access to shuffle through app menus. HUD was broken for these apps.
And now they are breaking the theming.Sorry this was a big message but I strongly believe that what Gnome is doing now is breaking all other distros, bit by bit, while trying to become a more closed environment, a sort of Apple of Linux.
We have been using Gnome for our TROMjaro for the past years and I can tell you from my experience it became so difficult to customize and add new functionalities to it that I had to eventually give up that and move to XFCE. In any case if you ever have some free time put TROMjaro https://www.tromjaro.com/ into Gnome Boxes and play with it. I'd be curious to see what you think of it.
Thank you. I appreciate and follow your work too!
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Rokosun
in reply to Tio • • •Also for TROMjaro its not just a branding thing, @tio tries very hard to make apps respect whichever theme the user chooses.
Tio likes this.
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Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Tio
in reply to Aral Balkan • •They may want to make Gnome more consistent but they should not break what makes linux great, that interoperability, and diversity, and collaboration.
When any user installs a libadwaita Gnome app on their system, and they do not use Gnome, then this apps looks entirely different from the entire system, including the number of window buttons and their position.
I disagree with you that libadwaita makes sense because in the best case scenario they will create consistency on some 50% of Linux apps and only on Gnome. This is far from consistent and isolates Gnome further.
Aral Balkan likes this.
Rokosun reshared this.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Screenshot of GNOME 42 desktop showing Elliott Shugerman’s light theme that includes the top bar and system menu. Files app is also open for comparison with the light mode window appearance.
:aeevee:
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •the design examples shown in the issue look especially harsh, like everything on the screen is trying to draw your attention at once
Aral Balkan
in reply to :aeevee: • • •