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I haven’t used #Windows as a daily driver in more than 5 years, so when I look at it, it’s with the eyes of someone who is not used to its weird, or, frankly, bad, design. I’ve worked in UX for 10 years, and some decisions Windows made are really sub-par.

And still, the bad user experience of Windows has a negative impact on #Linux desktops. Here is why!

https://youtu.be/GkxAp2Gh7-E

Paul Sutton reshared this.

in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I have not used windows on a desktop for 10 years, have to put up with it at code club, tried to create a simple sign in word a while back, and gave up

I just wrote sign on piece of paper.

We have i3s with 4gb ram, they should really be quicker.

ZX spectrum can load a game from tape quicker than these computers boot up so they are ready to use.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I've used the Gnome DE for several years before switching to XFCE. For our custom distro TROMjaro we use both a clickable menu (icon, you click it, you see the apps and categories) and a centered window for when you press the Super key.

In my view that's the best approach for using the mouse and keyboard. If you use the mouse the menu follows that, not like Gnome where if you pressed the menu icon you'll get a full screen centered menu with apps. Some people are really used with the mouse and for that such a "classic" menu is far better. Your arguments make sense only for when you use the keyboard to open the menu. Also, to have a quick list of apps and categories is super useful when you are not sure what the name of an app is, but you know it is say in Multimedia. I have a bunch of multimedia tools and I want to see which one I am looking for.
in reply to Tio

@tio This centered app grid looks like the best of both worlds. With a mouse, having to navigate categories is a bad option though, to many mouse clicks and too much aiming.
@Tio
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I think if you are used to using a mouse, it is easier to use that classic menu. Definitely not easier to click an icon in a corner of the screen, and have the menu/app grid in the center of the screen. That's dizzy in my opinion.
in reply to Tio

@tio It’s absolutely easier to have a full screen grid of icons with a mouse. Way bigger click targets, and a more focused experience. If you use the keyboard, you don’t really care about where things open. If you use a mouse, it’s much better to have along icons. Less aiming!
@Tio
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

You know I used to say the exact same thing when we were using Gnome for TROMjaro, and after we switched to XFCE and using the more classic menu, I like the classic one more. Granted our classic menu has a grid of apps.


With decently big icons.

It simply is faster and easier to not have to switch your attention and mouse cursor to the center of the screen after clicking the corner of the screen.

in reply to Tio

@tio But then you have to aim much more carefully because everything is super small.
@Tio
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I think that's nitpicking :) - In many cases, such as XFCE, you can make them as large as you want :)


:P

Actually that's what I love about XFCE how easy it is to customize things without any external "extensions". But that's offtopic.

in reply to Tio

Even the category menu. As big as you want. Or only use icons for them :)



You can even resize the menu window. Anyway. Just showing off with XFCE here haha.

At the end of the day I like that we have many options across distros, that's for sure.

in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

@tio I use the Dashboard launcher on Plasma, which strangely, for KDE, is not customizable. I wish I could make it more compact so that I didn't have to move the pointer so far when using a touchpad.
@Tio
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

@tio Who in the world is out there clicking on icons to launch apps in start menus in 2023? I would genuinely question whether having a list of icons is needed at all at this point unless you're on a touch device (and I use text search on my phone, too).

Kudos to Blender, incidentally, which has appropriated the "searchable tools through a quick search hotkey" thing and is insanely intuitive to use as a result. I don't even know where most things live in the toolbar at this point.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

Who in the world is out there clicking on icons to launch apps in start menus in 2023?

Me and so many other people. The sane and friendly way is to not ignore those. Adapt it for all.
in reply to Tio

@tio Sure, support legacy ways to interact. All of the relevant OSs do that well enough.

However, I would argue that if the conversation here is about looking at UX with fresh eyes for optimal tools instead of sticking with the bad old UX you know, then the recommendation isn't "fullscreen menu", it's "use the keyboard instead".
@Tio
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

@tio On a desktop PC? I'm gonna need some citation there.

I mean, on most OSs you'd pin your normal work apps to your taskbar, so no going into a menu of any kind at all in the first place, but if people are scrolling down a long list for the right icon (or worse, paging around) for less used apps then maybe the answer is to take out the icons altogether. That is a horrible way to find an app in a list with hundreds of them.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan @tio With custom folders to build muscle memory, bigger and easier to hit click targets, and a focused experience? No contest. Better than a menu.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

@tio All joking aside now, I think you're making the same mistake you're criticising: Flagging the flow you're comfortable with as the optimal flow.

With pinnable apps on a taskbar and text search you're now discussing the third best flow through the task, at which point I'd argue you're in fallback mode and it doesn't matter how much you optimize tools that deep down.

Not that I'm giving Win credit for the pinnable taskbar, that's what? A MacOS thing? It works, though.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan @tio Nah, I personally prefer typing and using the keyboard. It’s a matter of observing people using their computers over the past 10 years.

A lot of people using Windows don’t know you can pin anything, and even less know they can use the keyboard to launch apps. The general use case is to either use a desktop icon (bad, because hidden behind windows that are opened), or to click the menu. Pinning apps is actually the secondary flow, and typing the third.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

@tio Again, if you came to me with that premise I would need to see some testing about it, because that doesn't track with my observations for the same amount of time. Who doesn't know about pinning/unpinning and just lives with Edge on their taskbar despite using Chrome? That's not a thing.

And even, EVEN if you were right, I would argue that it's a problem of migrating users to the better solution, then, perhaps by removing the bad one altogether.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan @tio I worked in UX for 10 years. I never tested for this behavior specifically, but watching users use computers for that long, I can tell you a lot of users don’t know about these features. And why would they? The OS never tells you about them.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

@tio I've worked in the field for a decade as well and also never tested for it. I did work in an office with a ton of people from different disciplines using Mac, Win and Linux computers and if I had ever noticed a single one of them fishing for their Outlook or Photoshop icon from a start menu I would have had... questions.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

@tio
Anybody working with a computer 8 hours a day has a set of pinned apps. Not only does the OS actually introduce the concept, explicitly and implicitly but it's common UX on phones and has been a default piece of functionality since what? Windows 8? Which, incidentally, did have a (bad) fullscreen launcher menu.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan @tio You’re assuming everyone who uses a computer uses them for 8h a day. That’s a big reach.

Windows never explicitly tells you you can do that. You have to infer it from the fact that other apps are pinned, which isn’t exactly crystal clear. It also wasn’t a thing before 7, people using Windows before that didn’t know it existed. Sorry, but my personal experience confirms my points.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

@tio Well, yeah, I don't question that your personal experience confirms your points, just like mine confirms mine. That's why I was suggesting I'd like to see this tested.

Also, I hate to do this, because I will also feel old, but Windows 7 was 14 years ago.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

@tio As for the discoverability of the pinned apps, the irony is that it's a consequence of MS's bloatware. The fact that Win 11 by default launches into a taskbar including the one browser you don't want, and a straight-up ad for a thing pretty much guarantees that every user will at least try to right click on the icons and find out.

I'd argue that it's less discoverable that you can do it on the start menu as well because nobody cares about Win11's silly quick apps panel.
@Tio
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan @tio And on top of that, I’ve known a lot of colleagues who never pinned anything even when using their computer 8h a day.

I even met a lot of mac users, that didn’t know you had to copy the app to your applications folder, and who ran them from the dng images.
in reply to MudMan

As much as I’d like to agree with you since I also just search up whatever I need to open 99% of the time, I can’t.

Most people I know just don’t use it that way, they barely use the search function actually. And they do use the pinned apps function but also with the keyword ‘barely’.

They just go by muscle memory with some pinned apps and the rest they hit the windows button and scroll. (sometimes they search for it)

And yeah, that’s not counting the fact that most people use computers yet they don’t work with them nor use them for 8 hours a day
in reply to feinzer

@feinzer @tio

I'm starting to think people have very skewed ideas of how desktop computers are used.

Literally everybody with a white collar job uses a computer for most of the day. Home computing happens on phones and tablets. TVs and gaming devices sometimes.

As for the usage, again, citation needed, I don't know if there are usage stats, but we clearly aren't aligning in our observations. And yeah, you "barely" use pins because you pin your apps only once. That's the point.
in reply to MudMan

@feinzer @tio Anyway, I'm gonna back off now.

It's a weird conversation, because I don't even particularly like Win11's take on the start menu, but as the opener for "bad UX design on Windows" it just sticks out as the least defensible example on that list.
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan @feinzer @tio Well, as I’ve said, in my experience., it’s actually the most defensible and fact based argument of the video, but to each their own!
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan @feinzer @tio Whote collar jobs don’t all use computers all day. I worked with a lot of realtors who barely use computers in their day, for example. They use tablets a lot though, and smartphones as well.
in reply to MudMan

Yes most home computers do happen on phones and tablets but that does not mean computers are only used by people working with them.

Also no, what I meant by barely using the pinning function was that most people I see using computers only pin a really small set of apps that does not cover their daily apps. They still use the start menu more than half of the time because most people not working on a computer don't like to be organized about it.

And again, we are talking about everyone who uses a computer, not people who work with computers. I work with them, I use it more than 8 hours a day and I optimized my workflow with it but most people just don't do that.

Especially people who work with computer but do not care for them, they usually just have 4 work apps there optimized by default by their company it admin and everything else they do manually, no search, no pinning, no nothing. Most people just can't be bothered.
This entry was edited (10 months ago)
in reply to feinzer

@feinzer @tio Yeeeah, I feel like we've lost track of what the conversation is about in the internet-y search for caveats to whatever the other guy said last. I refer to and stick by what I said so far and am gonna move on.
in reply to MudMan

lmao, you ask: "Who in the world is out there clicking on icons to launch apps in start menus in 2023?" and sorry but that's everyone except people who care man. And most people don't.

But yes, let's move on.
in reply to feinzer

@feinzer @tio To be clear, I said that as a reaction to a video about suboptimal UX solutions on Windows.

Whichever percentage of users "don't care" (which again, gonna need some sources for "over 50%") is already not part of this conversation by definition. If people didn't care then there would be no need for Linux devs to follow allegedly bad Windows UX practices. Certainly no need to switch to maybe marginally better solutions.
in reply to MudMan

@feinzer @tio To be clear, that's not what I think. I'm just saying that "most people don't care about doing things more conveniently through better UX alternatives" is not a particularly good argument in this context.
in reply to MudMan

I see your point, mine was that making the start menu easier to use does benefit many people because well, many do use it

In my experience, people prefer a corner/smaller start menu as everything is easier to reach on mouse even though you need more precision.

However most people I know are either Windows or Linux users, MacOS users probably don't care or prefer the fullscreen bigger icons menu.
in reply to feinzer

Alright, now calling it for real. I'll sign out with a salute to the MVP example from this whole thread. If your pro or office application doesn't map this to a hotkey, ask yourself why not.
This entry was edited (10 months ago)
in reply to MudMan

Not sure which program made this idea so popular but I first saw it on vscode and I've been using it on every program I can ever since

Switched to neovim so no need for it there but still the perfect middleground between avoiding awful menus and keeping functionality without becoming a vim user
in reply to Tio

Seems XFCE changed a lot since the last time I trued it, might need to try it once more.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

reshared this

in reply to Tio

@tio Theming QT and GTK apps will never make them into a coherent UI. They don’t follow the same guidelines, they don’t look the same.

On the surface, maybe, but when you use them, they’ll never feel like part of the same coherent ensemble. Trying to do that is a lost cause. They’re not made the same way, they’re not designed with the same goals in mind or even with the same principles. It’s a recipe for a complete mess.
@Tio
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I've heard this before many times. However as I said we did this for our custom distro, you can have a look at the code https://git.trom.tf/TROMjaro/fixes-package, and honestly after testing thousands of apps for our library, adding hundreds to it, I rarely came across any inconsistencies. The proof is here https://www.tromjaro.com/apps/ I make screenshots for all of the apps we test.

We've been doing this for the past years. I use our custom distro a lot, and test a lot on it, I would not want an inconsistent desktop for me either. But so far so great.
in reply to Tio

@tio I’m sorry, but an app with a menu bar will never look right next to an app with a header bar. An app that uses a ribbon like some modes in LibreOffice will never look the same as a KDE app. It might use the same titlebar buttons and controls, but the UI is not the same and it’s immediately visible.

It’s a coat of makeup, and it unifies the look, but not the feel. It solves a visual problem, but it doesn’t make the user experience consistent or reproducible between apps!
@Tio
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

You know if the menus can be "exported" like it is the case for the rest (pretty much), except the new Gnome apps, they can be added under a hamburger menu, or a menu bar. That's compatibility. Not to mention that hamburger menus can never replace the menus for most apps that have more than 10 items in the menu, it is too inconvenient to add them all under that hamburger menu. So Gnome, at best, ends up with at least 2 types of menus now.

Krita, Kdenlive, Libreoffice, and so forth, can never have a proper hamburger menu.

an app with a menu bar will never look right next to an app with a header bar

Regardless of how nice it looks, I am talking a lot about usability. The ability to search through these menus, read them with a text-to-speech software, and so forth.
in reply to Tio

the fact that you prefer traditional menubars to hamburger menus kind of proves that having different desktops with different design philosophies and guidelines for apps to choose from is a good thing...
in reply to :aeevee:

@tromino @tio Yep. Choices will always better for users than a single design path!
in reply to :aeevee:

I understand, but I am talking about compatibility and usability. It's not really about the burger menus as it is about the ability to have them "exported" so that the system knows that's a menu. That's how it used to be. That means someone with disabilities can use a program that can easily search, read, and act on any menu items. And for those without disabilities like me, make it 100 times easier to use complex programs because with the press of a button you can search for any menu item, without navigating through dozens of menus and submenus.

It is simply a lot more useful to have separated menus that the system can interact with.

Lastly, hamburger menus can never replace the menus for most programs out there that have more than 3 menu categories. You can't hide so many items under a hamburger menu. So Gnome too will always end up with at least 2 separate menu designs.

Vivian "Bigou" reshared this.

in reply to Tio

@tio @tromino Menu bars definitely have their place in some programs, yeah. We still haven’t figured out a way to replace them completely.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Nick, you can probably relate: Everytime I have to use Windows (doesn't matter the context) I feel almost "dirty" due to all the tracking and the inconsistent UIs definitely DO NOT help 🤢
Unknown parent

Nick @ The Linux Experiment
@bigpod What we currently have is already much better than what windows offers
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Hopefully this video breaks the algorithm and circulates to trending lists.
Unknown parent

Nick @ The Linux Experiment
@bigpod A single program to handle updates is actually less prone to errors. Less code to maintain generally equaled more stability.
Unknown parent

Nick @ The Linux Experiment
@bigpod You take apt as an example. Apps, and libraries are packages. Apt doesn’t have to know the difference between them, which makes it more reliable, inherently.

As per Flatpaks, I’m a big fan, and they’re handled from the exact same software than your system updates, which is great, but not with the same package manager, which also makes sense. I don’t see any issue with that, and it has never been unreliable?
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

absolutely agree with most the points in this video. After a decade of using smartphones, a lot of the way things are done on my Windows PC are just archaic. I don't want "one interface to rule them all", but there is still a lot Windows (and Linux distros) can learn from android/chrome. I'll especially take an appstore over EXEs and DEBs anyday.
in reply to Nick

@onestar Yeah. I’m pretty sure desktop systems will have to adapt to survive, because a lot of people use phones way more than computers, and will expect the same type of experience.
@Nick
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I do kinda want to move back off Windows BUT OneDrive is too good. In my personal workflow I do need good cloud storage, & nothing does what OneDrive does including “files on demand” at such a good price. I use the family pack thing and it’s silly cheap.

There’s a few other Windowsy things I use a lot too, but OneDrive is the biggest thing that stops me reacquainting myself with The Penguin.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Should not have frontloaded the outright wrong hot take on this one, because the rest get progressively more reasonable.

Progressively. Taking up the whole screen to launch and application is outright worse UX, the reason Windows doesn't have an integrated app store is that MS was trying to Apple it and users outright rejected the idea, and keeping files structured per program or per file type is a bit of a wash.

No complaints on the updates and insane legacy system apps, though.
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan Nope. A menu is worse UX than a fullscreen launcher. Smartphones don’t use menus, people love them. It’s a matter of being used to it.
in reply to MudMan

I'll give you that the obsession of MS with trying to integrate their bad online search into their good local search makes for bad UX if you don't immediately get the result you're looking for when typing, though.

Less stupid variations on that concept work just fine and MUCH better than mouse clicking an a massive list of icons.
in reply to MudMan

@MudMan I agree that using the keyboard to search for apps is much more efficient, yeah!
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

my God! Thanks for this video! As someone who isn’t a Windows user but is having to use a Windows VM temporarily right now for a project and this video struck a chord.

Thank you, thank you!
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I quit windows about 10 years ago and went to Mac. Whilst I loved the OS, I can't afford it now. I tried going back to Windows before noping right out and trying Linux again. I don't regret it for a moment. I work on IT support, and windows is a mess. There are three different ways to do the same thing like changing a name, and if you don't do it on the right one, it doesn't propagate & causes more problems.

In Linux, it would be one line of shell script and done.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Can't say I actually like GNOME at all, I prefer KDE, but I hear what you are saying on the whole and Win11 is a real dog's dinner of different and random stuff. Looks like was designed by several committees all give different instructions...!
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Thanks Nick for this great video. I fully agree with you. I never understood why the UX of MS products is sooo bad. Compared to their alternatives. Over decades!

And I never understood why user actively request for those bad windows features in other OSs.

You clearly pointed out why.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

One thing i liked about Unity, and now Gnome, is that they looked distinct from Windows. It helped set the tone that it would be different from Windows.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

its a shame because windows 7 was great, windows 10 wasn't terrible, but windows 11 just makes no sense, even from a brand recognition perspective its terrible as the start menu in corner is iconic to windows, why would they get rid of it
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I use Windows every day at work, and I can tell you, the workflow is atrocious, I hate it.
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

It might just be because I'm used to iPad as my first device but after switching to GNOME I just love the way you open apps with the apps grid, I know that searching for apps might be more efficient but honestly it's not a huge different once you have your muscle memory
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Episodes like this is why I subscribe via Patreon. This episode cut through so much mental cruft like a hot knife through butter.

#1 thank you for making the scales fall from my eyes.

#2 I haven’t used Windows as a DE for (over) two decades, but I realize I still put up with stupid UX inspired by Redmond, WA., without even knowing about it.
I dug Gnome while I used Pop_OS!, maybe it’s time to give VanillaOS a try.

Are there any other innovative Linux DEs to try?
in reply to suquamish

@suquamish Budgie and Unity also change things up, and the not yet released new redesign / rewrite of Cosmic for PopOS also looks interesting!
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Great video. I've been using PopOS for work for several months now and can't imagine going back to windows for work. I've even ordered a System76 for my personal daily driver.

Keep up the good work!
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Further to your point... I just found out that Plasma 6 will be setting double-click as the default. Basically to appease users coming from other desktops.
in reply to Gregg B

@greggex Yeah, the reason behind the change confirms my points: no one that made the decision likes double click, but they’re still going to do it because that’s what users know!
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

That center mounted start menu, after being on the left since '95, is just asinine.
in reply to Miakoda

@hellomiakoda Yeah, it’s change for the sake of aesthetics but it doesn’t fix the issues with the menu and it breaks habits
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

I'm finding in Plasma, I've moved away from actually using the menu, to just using its search.
I should probably just try to start using Krunner for that. I'm just afraid of forgetting what I have installed, so I never get rid of the menu. 🤣
in reply to Nick @ The Linux Experiment

When I switched to Linux years ago, I stumbled over some things just because of Windows habits. With a little discipline, you get over the entry hurdle. And then you wonder how you ever found the installation path on Windows easy.

But any change of habits means effort. Even if it leads to the better.

That's why I absolutely agree with you that Windows also slows down the UX development of Linux.