@skyblond do you know if there is some sort of asian language short hand? If not chinese any of the languages that use kanji like charachers (single characters to represent words). Im curious about forms of shorthand that migbt be applied to such scripts.
天空вℓσи∂
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 • • •If I'm not misunderstanding, there is some sort of short hand in Chinese, but mostly for professional usage, like clerk, but nowadays we almost exclusively use computer and use PinYin to type Chinese charactors, I can achive about 90 to 100 wpm (or cpm, c for character).
Here is a picture I found on the internet, it shows the markers for some character.
I think the doctor still use that kind of shorthands? I can never read those.
🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
Unknown parent • • •@m
As someone ignorant on the subject that sounds like longer-hand from kanji and not a shorthand at all.
Obviously compared to latin letters it might seem like short hand. But relative to true kanji what you describe sounds like more strokes, not less.
天空вℓσи∂
Unknown parent • • •@m
I think you mean PinYin. For example you can represent a word like 我们 (means `we`) as wo3men2, but 我门 (means `my door`) is also pronounced as wo3men2. That will be tricky if you write something like wo3men2huai4le, it can be either 我们坏了 (means we are badass), or 我门坏了 (meaning my door is broken). And that's why early pinyin input method is a nightmare to use, because it often suggest unrelated candidate. Now with smarter software, the input method is more likely to suggest the later option instead of saying you're badass.
@freemo
天空вℓσи∂
Unknown parent • • •@m
Oh, that's called ZhuYin, it's before RPC government decide to reform and simplify Chinese to make it easier to learn. It's a little bit easier than Pinyin, but still need at least 2 part to represent a pronunciation
@freemo
天空вℓσи∂
in reply to 天空вℓσи∂ • • •Apparently it should be PRC, People Republic of China, not RPC.
SpaceLifeForm
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 • • •It is probably as short as can be.
Not likely to compress more information into less pen strokes.
天空вℓσи∂
in reply to SpaceLifeForm • • •In handwriting, as myself never learnt how to do shorthand, I do have my way to write, mainly keep the pen stay on paper (aka reduce strokes). But sometimes I can't read what I write, so that's the downside.
🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
in reply to 天空вℓσи∂ • • •The way you describe it, it sounds like a cursive form of kanji. Which is cool in its own right.
Im a calligrapher as a hobby and while my girlfriends language doesnt have kanji it is asian. So ive been enjoying learning more about the languages from the region.
@SpaceLifeForm
天空вℓσи∂
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 • • •Just a simple demo to show how I normally write. The standard one is shown on the left side, they are 7, 5 and 8 strokes. And the left side is how I write those, the first one is 2 strokes because there is a separate dot there. The rest are 1 stroke.
A fun fact: In school teacher will not allow you to write like this.I was being criticized a lot when I was in school.
And because school don't allow and of course won't teach you how to write like this, almost everyone will develop their own way to write. So when talking about handwriting, unless it's intentionally write for others, it's hard to read other people's handwriting.
And I think I won't say it's cursive. The real cursive is much beautiful than this :)
@SpaceLifeForm
🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
in reply to 天空вℓσи∂ • • •So in school youd have to learn the form on the left which is more "correct" but also less practical i guess?
In school you use pencils and pens? The older style of using brushes isnt very common for everyday writing i take it? With a brush i guess its more like calligraphy.
@SpaceLifeForm
天空вℓσи∂
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 • • •@SpaceLifeForm
Actually we use pen and pencil daily. Now we only use brushes when doing calligraphy or we need write something big.
The left side is how you should write and print. And you should write like that if you want others to easily read what you write. And in school it's required to be written in the correct order of storkes, which I think some are reasonable, some are not.
This passage is write for japanese but most of the idea works for Chinese too.
tofugu.com/japanese/kanji-stro…
And now we're using simplified Chinese, which means much less strokes. In Taiwan and HongKong they still use traditional Chinese, which looks nicer, but with a lof ot strokes.
Some traditional Chinese looks like (copied from wikipedia):
... Show more...漢字簡化運動可追溯至新文
@SpaceLifeForm
Actually we use pen and pencil daily. Now we only use brushes when doing calligraphy or we need write something big.
The left side is how you should write and print. And you should write like that if you want others to easily read what you write. And in school it's required to be written in the correct order of storkes, which I think some are reasonable, some are not.
This passage is write for japanese but most of the idea works for Chinese too.
tofugu.com/japanese/kanji-stro…
And now we're using simplified Chinese, which means much less strokes. In Taiwan and HongKong they still use traditional Chinese, which looks nicer, but with a lof ot strokes.
Some traditional Chinese looks like (copied from wikipedia):
漢字簡化運動可追溯至新文化運動中關於文字及語文教言和國家發展的討論。
The same text but in simplified Chinese:
汉字简化运动可追溯至新文化运动中关于文字及语文教言和国家发展的讨论。
Kanji Stroke Order: How to Guess it Every Time
Koichi (Tofugu)🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
in reply to 天空вℓσи∂ • • •Why woukd the order of strokes matter? Doesnt it look the same regardless of what order you execute the strokes in? Thanks this is all very interesting to me.
@SpaceLifeForm
天空вℓσи∂
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 • • •@SpaceLifeForm
I don't know, I didn't fully get the idea of stroke order. But from top to bottom and left to right does help shape your character.
----
It's a hard question since I never thought about it. Some anwser suggest it's part of the standard. Eventually you will write the same character no matter how you write it, but to resolve any ambiguity, there has to be a standard way to write. And some suggest the correct stroke order can help you learn cursive.
🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
in reply to 天空вℓσи∂ • • •Correct me if im wrong but chinese culture has a very strong aspect of conformity to it. So i suppose that is reflected even in how you are taught to write.
@SpaceLifeForm
天空вℓσи∂
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 • • •@SpaceLifeForm
Maybe? I actually don't know. But I found some (most?) order are actually matches very well on how I developed my own writing style. If the orders are right, they can be combined to 1 stroke and won't looks mess. But some are not that intuitive (actually I'll call them counterintuitive).
Also, a friend of mine just send this video to me: bilibili.com/video/BV1Mb4y1P75…
It's a Chinese lecture talking about Chinese shorthand, hosted on Chinese website, so good luck :)
🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
in reply to 天空вℓσи∂ • • •What i find interesting is in english there are hubdreds of different scripts to represent the same words. There is no standard form of writing. But in chinese seems much more standardized, all the way down to the stroke order.
@SpaceLifeForm
eshep
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 • •I can only answer as far as Japanese is concerned, but I expect Chinese has a similar reason for stroke order. In Japanese, it is considered to be a fundamental part of writing and uniquely defines each character. The main reason for the order though is fluidity. When written correctly, each stroke leaves you (mostly) where you need to be for the next; it aids in writing for both speed and legibility. A hand-written character done in the wrong order is more than not, easily identifiable as "incorrect". This difference is much easier to see when written with a brush or flat marker, but pen, pencil, chalk, rocks, burnt sticks ...they all leave a heavy and light side for each stroke made. The order in which strokes are made becomes even more important when writing similarly to the (not cursive) example @天
... Show more...I can only answer as far as Japanese is concerned, but I expect Chinese has a similar reason for stroke order. In Japanese, it is considered to be a fundamental part of writing and uniquely defines each character. The main reason for the order though is fluidity. When written correctly, each stroke leaves you (mostly) where you need to be for the next; it aids in writing for both speed and legibility. A hand-written character done in the wrong order is more than not, easily identifiable as "incorrect". This difference is much easier to see when written with a brush or flat marker, but pen, pencil, chalk, rocks, burnt sticks ...they all leave a heavy and light side for each stroke made. The order in which strokes are made becomes even more important when writing similarly to the (not cursive) example @天空вℓσи∂ put above. Writing anything in this style would be impossible to read if strokes were not made in the correct order.
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🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
in reply to eshep • • •@eshep
Thanks so much. That lines up roughly wish some of my speculation. Much appreciate the culture sharing :)
@skyblond @SpaceLifeForm
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eshep
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