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Rokosun
in reply to Tio • •@Tio
I sometimes think of death as an external sleep and it makes it seem less frightening, except the pain of death and health issues ofc - those are still scary.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth? 🤔 But yeah I do still wish for some things to change, things like wars and environmental destruction, or the fact that humans are still forced to be like working ants - that sucks because it takes away their precious time.
If you think about it the universe also feels stagnant sometimes, the moon rotates around the earth and the earth rotates around the sun - it has been like that for millions of years. I've heard that the Andromeda galaxy will one day collapse with the Milkyway to create a new galaxy, but the time it takes for that to happen is so long that my lifespan feels insignificant in comparison. Hell most of us don't even notice the
... show more@Tio
I sometimes think of death as an external sleep and it makes it seem less frightening, except the pain of death and health issues ofc - those are still scary.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth? 🤔 But yeah I do still wish for some things to change, things like wars and environmental destruction, or the fact that humans are still forced to be like working ants - that sucks because it takes away their precious time.
If you think about it the universe also feels stagnant sometimes, the moon rotates around the earth and the earth rotates around the sun - it has been like that for millions of years. I've heard that the Andromeda galaxy will one day collapse with the Milkyway to create a new galaxy, but the time it takes for that to happen is so long that my lifespan feels insignificant in comparison. Hell most of us don't even notice the trees growing around us because it happens very slowly lol 😄 But the one thing that has had significant changes is our understanding of the universe, we sent humans to space, rovers to mars, etc so that we could study it. We made a giant foldable telescope and sent it into space just so we could see distant galaxies more clearly! 🤓 Hell we photographed a black hole! 😃 So in the end it is still about humanity, the leaps and bounces we make in trying to understand the universe 🙂
Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •Well doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
Those missions are not just "humans exploring out of curiosity" - there are many people involved who just "do their job" as an engineer, scientist, etc.. I remember seeing videos from ISS with "scientists" wearing a cross, and being so "christians"....to me that's so weird. Also celebrating the SuperBall and I bet many watch Netflix in space.
My point is that if we were to discover that inside our skulls there is a green little man pushing buttons....and we have phot
... show moreWell doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
Those missions are not just "humans exploring out of curiosity" - there are many people involved who just "do their job" as an engineer, scientist, etc.. I remember seeing videos from ISS with "scientists" wearing a cross, and being so "christians"....to me that's so weird. Also celebrating the SuperBall and I bet many watch Netflix in space.
My point is that if we were to discover that inside our skulls there is a green little man pushing buttons....and we have photos of that, and so on, but you tell to people about it and they are like "hm, ok, yah" and move on with their life....this is WEIRD :D
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Rokosun
in reply to Tio • •@Tio
Yeah it is kinda scary to think that you'll never be able to experience the world again, but once you're dead you're also not conscious anymore and without that you cannot miss what you had before. But yeah ofc it's normal to be scared of death, we all are to some extent.
... show moreI think the discovery of these things actually did have an impact on our culture, but perhaps not as pronounced as it should've been. I remember the first time I learned about atoms as a kid, that was a mind blowing experi
@Tio
Yeah it is kinda scary to think that you'll never be able to experience the world again, but once you're dead you're also not conscious anymore and without that you cannot miss what you had before. But yeah ofc it's normal to be scared of death, we all are to some extent.
I think the discovery of these things actually did have an impact on our culture, but perhaps not as pronounced as it should've been. I remember the first time I learned about atoms as a kid, that was a mind blowing experience for me! And I remember discussing about these ideas with a friend who was also blown away by these things. The crazy thing is that it almost feels like science fiction, and I know people have theorized about this idea centuries ago that maybe all matter was made out of some fundamental particles - those were just theories back then, until we discovered through science that it was actually real! Over time I got used to the idea of atoms and it doesn't excite me anymore like when I was a kid first discovering it, but this is pretty normal - it keeps me wanting to learn new things so that I could feel like that kid again 🙂
Religion and science is a weird mix for sure, but I don't know maybe it works in this weird ant worker society we got going lol 😄 Stuff like SuperBall and Netflix could be argued as a waste of time (if someone's spending too much time on it), but at least these are not fundamental beliefs like religion and likewise not as harmful.
Oh yeah I get what you mean, I don't understand people who don't have any curiosity man 😅 It is sad to see people being apathetic to these things. Sometimes when I learn about something really cool and wanna share it with others I have no one around me who could understand it or share that excitement with me, sometimes when there is someone they'll be too busy to have the time for it - experiences like that does make me feel alone sometimes.
Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •The missing part is for the alive ones :P like us. So ofc it is frighting to think about it.
I do not see that impact. People's lives are the same as they were hundreds or thousands of years ago: work, consume, get married, have kids, gossip, and all that. These discoveries didn't even make us feel like one species. We are still divided into tribes.
Yeah exactly....as I was saying since people are so busy to trade mostly. It sucks and it destroys curiosity. It really sucks.
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Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Mmm, depends what you mean by "core of our global society" I guess.
Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In some ways the changes have been profound even at the practical level, let alone the subtler realm of world views (which have changed beyond recognition).
In Stephen Baxter's novels he refers to all the accessories needed for manned spaceflight collectively as plumbing : we need to bring along a hell of a lot of stuff just to keep us going. Likewise, what have we learned that prevents the need for sex, trade and beer (not necessarily in that order) ? Nothing, really. We still need to do all that stuff. It's
... show moreMmm, depends what you mean by "core of our global society" I guess.
Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In some ways the changes have been profound even at the practical level, let alone the subtler realm of world views (which have changed beyond recognition).
In Stephen Baxter's novels he refers to all the accessories needed for manned spaceflight collectively as plumbing : we need to bring along a hell of a lot of stuff just to keep us going. Likewise, what have we learned that prevents the need for sex, trade and beer (not necessarily in that order) ? Nothing, really. We still need to do all that stuff. It's just that now our conversations are about different things and proceed from different assumptions. The shift is subtler than changing our gross behaviours - except where technology or other developments make this unavoidable - but no less powerful for that. You don't find people worrying about miasma anymore, but actually disinfecting things properly.
The other factor is that frequent consideration of our place in the Universe on scales both large and small is likely a quick route to insanity. :)
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •Probably "immediate relevance" means whatever they are made to focus on in this society: iphones, gadgets, stupid tv shows, events, consume, drama, etc.. Cells and galaxies and the rest are something one can use to change the way they see themselves and others. Like we are all humans, all connected, no need for artificial separations like borders, nationalities, color of the skin, etc.. These are also wonderful discussion topics and may make people buy a telescope/microscope rather than a new phone. There are many implications resulting from such a scientific mind set.
... show moreProbably "immediate relevance" means whatever they are made to focus on in this society: iphones, gadgets, stupid tv shows, events, consume, drama, etc.. Cells and galaxies and the rest are something one can use to change the way they see themselves and others. Like we are all humans, all connected, no need for artificial separations like borders, nationalities, color of the skin, etc.. These are also wonderful discussion topics and may make people buy a telescope/microscope rather than a new phone. There are many implications resulting from such a scientific mind set.
This has nothing to do with the way people are. A webdesigner today and a house constructor from 600 years ago have a lot in common. Probably both want to get married, have kids, want to buy stuff, trade, not curious about the scientific world, etc..
Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Yes, but most scientists also want to buy stuff, get married, etc. We don't spend the whole time pontificating on the nature of reality because, as I said, it would drive us mad.
I think the general mindset of the modern world has changed, substantially, from where it was centuries ago. Social attitudes have changed radically from where they were even a few decades ago : compare the role of women in the workplace in the 1950s, or how homosexuals were treated in the 1980s. There isn't full equality yet, but good lord there's been a colossal shift in that direction (interestingly of course, if you go back further through history, you often find shifts in both positive as well as negative directions compared to the modern era, e.g. homosexuality in ancient Greece).
Yes, lots of people use gadgets and whatnot for watching stupid TV shows and the like. But they also use them for watching educational stuff.
I dunno, I just think there's no one right way to live one's life. I'm an astronomer, but I'd no more want to force astronomy on those unwilling to do it t
... show moreYes, but most scientists also want to buy stuff, get married, etc. We don't spend the whole time pontificating on the nature of reality because, as I said, it would drive us mad.
I think the general mindset of the modern world has changed, substantially, from where it was centuries ago. Social attitudes have changed radically from where they were even a few decades ago : compare the role of women in the workplace in the 1950s, or how homosexuals were treated in the 1980s. There isn't full equality yet, but good lord there's been a colossal shift in that direction (interestingly of course, if you go back further through history, you often find shifts in both positive as well as negative directions compared to the modern era, e.g. homosexuality in ancient Greece).
Yes, lots of people use gadgets and whatnot for watching stupid TV shows and the like. But they also use them for watching educational stuff.
I dunno, I just think there's no one right way to live one's life. I'm an astronomer, but I'd no more want to force astronomy on those unwilling to do it than I'd appreciate being forced to, say, play basketball. I honestly haven't got a clue what people get out of playing sports but if that's what they like, so be it.
I do wish we could stop the utterly vacuous stuff though : Keeping Up With the Kardaashians, endless celebrity gossip and the like. But I'm not sure it's possible. We seem hard wired to be very interested in judging each other, and no amount of cosmic mystiwisdom seems able to change that.
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •It is not about "pontificating" about atoms, galaxies, and what-not, is about how these fundamental truths that were only discovered recently seem to have no impact on the vast majority of people. And that is very strange.
I am lucky to be around people who are excited about these real things so we often talk about these, we go with the telescope and watch some planets, or look at things through the microscope, etc.. I cannot even watch movies anymore, I watch documentaries. Reality is the most mindblowing and interesting and complex thing, so if you get it, you can't be excited by simplistic human-made stories I guess. And we are far from losing our minds :)
I agree some social attitudes have changed a lot, but many have not in my view. The attitude towards work, the notion of family, the view of us as one species (which is scientifically accurate) does not seem to be a thing in this society - I see a lot more division every day. We have the same core trade-based society where the purpose of pretty much everyone is that of trade. To trade themselves or the stuff they
... show moreIt is not about "pontificating" about atoms, galaxies, and what-not, is about how these fundamental truths that were only discovered recently seem to have no impact on the vast majority of people. And that is very strange.
I am lucky to be around people who are excited about these real things so we often talk about these, we go with the telescope and watch some planets, or look at things through the microscope, etc.. I cannot even watch movies anymore, I watch documentaries. Reality is the most mindblowing and interesting and complex thing, so if you get it, you can't be excited by simplistic human-made stories I guess. And we are far from losing our minds :)
I agree some social attitudes have changed a lot, but many have not in my view. The attitude towards work, the notion of family, the view of us as one species (which is scientifically accurate) does not seem to be a thing in this society - I see a lot more division every day. We have the same core trade-based society where the purpose of pretty much everyone is that of trade. To trade themselves or the stuff they have, for something else. The attitude towards consumerism has become more insane, and so forth.
I also agree that anyone should live their lives as they wish to, I am just observing some facts: how for the past hundreds of years mindblowing things have been discovered about reality, and this had almost 0 impact on the day to day life of people. Imagine if we proved we live in a computer simulation and all scientists agree and we can verify. But yet most people would be like "Yeah, cool..." and move on with their simulated life. Wouldn't that be bizarre?
I disagree that we are hard wired for anything really. We become whatever the environment pushes us to be. Even the way we walk or talk is created by the environment we are raised into. And we can change, never forget that.
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Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Well I do agree that we aren't hardwired for anything very much. In large part, I think, we are society; we are our own environment. Yet there are behaviours like family bonds which, if not truly constant, don't seem to vary nearly as strongly. Hence I interpret some attitudes and behaviours, at least, to be hard-wired, maybe not fully so but much more than others.
I'm fascinated by how other cultures have interpreted reality in very different ways. The modern scientific world view is really very recent indeed and nowhere near complete, or even wholly accurate. I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ? The big ideas don't filter down to that level much except as nth-order effects. There is a deep-seated need to talk to other people, to have friends, to have material goods... whether reality is the atomic waste of stellar explosions or we're actually all living inside the eye of a giant duck wouldn't make any difference to that. In a way, all co
... show moreWell I do agree that we aren't hardwired for anything very much. In large part, I think, we are society; we are our own environment. Yet there are behaviours like family bonds which, if not truly constant, don't seem to vary nearly as strongly. Hence I interpret some attitudes and behaviours, at least, to be hard-wired, maybe not fully so but much more than others.
I'm fascinated by how other cultures have interpreted reality in very different ways. The modern scientific world view is really very recent indeed and nowhere near complete, or even wholly accurate. I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ? The big ideas don't filter down to that level much except as nth-order effects. There is a deep-seated need to talk to other people, to have friends, to have material goods... whether reality is the atomic waste of stellar explosions or we're actually all living inside the eye of a giant duck wouldn't make any difference to that. In a way, all conceptions of reality are equally astonishing (Pratchett, as often, said it best).
On the other hand... nobody goes to the local Wise Woman for medicine anymore (well, with some unfortunate exceptions...), or sacrifices a bull to bring the rain. Some basics haven't varied much but differences of detail are huge. The things that don't vary, I think, are the fundamental "plumbing" and likely will never alter very much at all.
And the thing is, discoveries filter through slowly. We have time to adapt; there isn't much "shock value" in most findings. Even when there is, what seemed revolutionary yesterday becomes normal very quickly indeed. We are extremely flexible. Possibly there's a state of maximum excitation beyond which things are so radically different that they just can't be understood at all, but below which pretty nearly everything becomes normal.
I suppose it might be "scary" in the sense that maybe we aren't as humbled as we should be. On the other hand, being in a state of permanent astonishment and surprise would be debilitating. Flexibility has its advantages.
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •I looked a lot into this hard-wiring "theory" of behavior and I could never find anything of significance especially since humans can always change. So the outside pressures are always the ones capable of changing the behavior.
Well take climate change. It is a huge issue. All scientists agree about that basically. But not much is being done because something else overwrites it: the pressures in this trade based society to seek for profit.
In the same way people are more incentivized and made to watch some silly netflix series than say documentaries (due to ads for example), or find it easier to have chit-chats about nothing things than more interesting conversations because most people are tired due to work. And so on. The notion of a family is quite stagnant and promoted by the same media that everyone consumes.
Most boils down to this trade-based society where people are incentivized to prom
... show moreI looked a lot into this hard-wiring "theory" of behavior and I could never find anything of significance especially since humans can always change. So the outside pressures are always the ones capable of changing the behavior.
Well take climate change. It is a huge issue. All scientists agree about that basically. But not much is being done because something else overwrites it: the pressures in this trade based society to seek for profit.
In the same way people are more incentivized and made to watch some silly netflix series than say documentaries (due to ads for example), or find it easier to have chit-chats about nothing things than more interesting conversations because most people are tired due to work. And so on. The notion of a family is quite stagnant and promoted by the same media that everyone consumes.
Most boils down to this trade-based society where people are incentivized to promote and consume whatever sells best, where most people are busy and consumers, where reality is not really sold/advertised in any way, and so on.
Why would notions like the family, or the idea of work, and so forth be changed by whatever we discovered so far? Because what we discovered shows us we are one species on one planet, and same as with the climate change we should change the way we do things on this planet because we are not doing so well. And where there is no issue that is uncovered by this reality, like climate change, then the view of yourself in this universe should change if you find something new about reality, no?
It is so strange to think this way. Are you saying that if tomorrow we discover that all is a computer simulation, and everyone agrees, wouldn't it be weird if people would have the same lives as before?
I do not think there is a "natural" excuse for this state of numbness about reality. Whenever I show others the Moon or other planets through my telescope they don't even have a clue what these are. And they are fascinated when I tell them. I think the information doesn't reach most people to begin with. You can't be curious if you don't even know.
We could be very different beings if we were to take reality more seriously.
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Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Well, the notion that we live in a simulation is essentially Berkelian idealism, which has been floating around for at least a couple of centuries and arguably a lot longer (certainly everyone has wondered at some point, "what if it's all a dream ?"). We've already had plenty of time to get use to the idea, so if it was somehow thought to be actually true, nothing much would happen.
Same as discovering aliens. When we actually do detect an alien signal or some microfossils, or even actual living microbes, I predict the reaction will be... not much. We've been writing stories about it since basically forever - it isn't a revolutionary concept anymore. Shock value is extremely hard to maintain. Sure, discovery of aliens would cause a big press hoo-hah. But unless we actually get an alien spaceship landing on the proverbial White House lawn (or equivalent), it isn't going to change anything fundamental on the long term. Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
Climate change is also a good example. Here's the rub : what can any of us actua
... show moreWell, the notion that we live in a simulation is essentially Berkelian idealism, which has been floating around for at least a couple of centuries and arguably a lot longer (certainly everyone has wondered at some point, "what if it's all a dream ?"). We've already had plenty of time to get use to the idea, so if it was somehow thought to be actually true, nothing much would happen.
Same as discovering aliens. When we actually do detect an alien signal or some microfossils, or even actual living microbes, I predict the reaction will be... not much. We've been writing stories about it since basically forever - it isn't a revolutionary concept anymore. Shock value is extremely hard to maintain. Sure, discovery of aliens would cause a big press hoo-hah. But unless we actually get an alien spaceship landing on the proverbial White House lawn (or equivalent), it isn't going to change anything fundamental on the long term. Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
Climate change is also a good example. Here's the rub : what can any of us actually do about it ? In the case of aliens or simulations, nothing. I can't see why that would make me like or dislike my friends and family any more than I do already : what bearing would it have on anything ? I'm stuck with the reality I have before me. Knowledge of what it "really" is doesn't change anything at all for me : I still experience the same pleasures and pains, so I can't see what difference it would make practically (this is not at all the same as saying I wouldn't find it hugely interesting, however !).
(In the case of climate change, this is a bit tangential, but the answer is still "not much" individually - real differences require different power generation, farming techniques, societal structures, etc. none of which any individual has any real influence over)
It's not numbness, or even indifference. It's just that these things are orthogonal. I think you're taking it for granted that knowledge of reality should fundamentally change behaviour, but I cannot really see why this should be the case. Atomic theory hasn't altered family dynamics - I think it would be extremely strange if it did !
Culture changes enormously, as I said, and I agree that this is largely due to external factors : I'm not disagreeing with you on that one significantly. I further agree that the world would be a better place if more people were more concerned about the bigger issues than the humdrum superficial stuff. It's disappointing and, yes, even a little weird that they're not. But I can't see why any sort of discovery would, or even should, change something as fundamental as the nature of friendships and families. Material concerns could and should be mitigated, but I would think the chain of thought from "what is the nature of reality ?" to "how many eggs do I need to buy today ?" is so convoluted as to make these essentially unrelated questions. Likewise, why would knowing that you're made of atoms or dreams affect whether you fancy someone or enjoy playing tennis or having a beer ? I can't see why it would.
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •It is one thing for fictional ideas to be around for ages, another to prove one of them is real. The example was to show how a shocking discovery should shock people.
I am talking about the initial shock value that does not seem to happen to begin with in many cases in regards to the contrast between reality and society.
I bet is not about interaction as it is about stimulation. There are many people in awe and shock about galaxies, or cells, or biology, or maths, or other parts of reality, as they are about celebrities, movies, fantasy stories and other things they cannot touch, interact with. It is all about what you stimulate people, culturally, to be interested in.
Like climate change, there are many who react to this bad piece of "news" and are active about trying to do something about it. Where is that motivation coming from since they seem to have no impact on the course of it anyway? It comes from what
... show moreIt is one thing for fictional ideas to be around for ages, another to prove one of them is real. The example was to show how a shocking discovery should shock people.
I am talking about the initial shock value that does not seem to happen to begin with in many cases in regards to the contrast between reality and society.
I bet is not about interaction as it is about stimulation. There are many people in awe and shock about galaxies, or cells, or biology, or maths, or other parts of reality, as they are about celebrities, movies, fantasy stories and other things they cannot touch, interact with. It is all about what you stimulate people, culturally, to be interested in.
Like climate change, there are many who react to this bad piece of "news" and are active about trying to do something about it. Where is that motivation coming from since they seem to have no impact on the course of it anyway? It comes from whatever these people have in their heads. That motivates them.
If you don't feel like doing anything about the climate issue then it is all because you may not realize the importance of it or whatever makes you think is not worth your energy. But in the end is all about what we have in our brains, and that comes form the environment (culture). And this culture/system is a lot, if not most, about consumption and stupid things, so that's what people have in their brains. Of course they cannot get too excited about galaxies or atoms, but they get a lot of excitement when Prince H marries with Princess A, or about some fictional TV show. These are advertised to them a lot.
People used to get married with their cousins or even closer relatives not long ago. It was normal. I think even Darwin married his cousin. Now because of some cultural shits and knowing that it is a bad idea (genetically speaking) to mate with closer relatives, this notion seems disgusting for many. Discoveries, bits of reality, can change and should change the way we think about mundane things.
Knowing that we are all made out of atoms should make us rethink our culturally inherited values such as fictional borders, human behavior, man made laws, and so forth. Why? Because we are part of a greater story and we are all part of the same system. A planet, an ecosystem, dependent on nature, and so forth.
Simply because there is no nature about these things.
Even today there are tribes where children are raised by the entire community and have no notions of parents. Or their relationships are vastly different from the rest of the "civilized" world.
Humans are like plasticine molded by their environment. It is simply that our culture/system is the same for thousands of years: trade, have jobs, mate, have kids, retire, die. Humans are busy at least 8h every day, and when they finish work/school they are so tired that at the best they can chew is simplistic and dumbed down media produced by the same system of trade (workers) trying to sell stuff. It is a self propelled idiocracy that makes people unable to know and digest the complexity of reality that science is discovering. I think that's a better explanation of this situation.
Imagine you take a fish from the sea and the fish could suddenly talk and understand you. You explain to him about the world, the planet, the water, the evolution. If they fish is not even curious, let alone shocked about what you enlighten him with, then I think we should probably consider the fish as non-intelligent, or incapable of understanding. No?
You put the fish back in the sea and he goes on about being a fish for the rest of his life. Why would anything change for him no?
To me this makes the fish look "stupid". Primitive. Incapable of grasping a greater reality.
With humans is different since we know they have the capacity to wonder about greater things that they cannot touch or even see. They are capable. So when they are not touched by mindblowing discoveries about reality, then it is a different explanation as of why that is, rather than "it is normal" or they are "incapable" of grasping. Again, looking at the system of trade, this society we live in, I think we can understand, as I explained, why they are not touched much about reality, but are very touched about all sort of things: fictional stories, movies, consumerism, etc..
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