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in reply to Bread and Circuses

Yes, most of educated people know it, but they can't see the origin of the problem. Which is trade. Some people already understand this, but not enough to change our society. Talking about problems, and patching does not fix anything. Just a show before extinct. Most of the simple things it us impossible to do because of the need to trade for profit. People, please, look at the origin of the problem.
in reply to Erik Wesselius

@erikwesselius The only problem is, is that we would leave a HUGE mess, especially when it comes to nuclear meltdowns and corroding containers of waste.
in reply to DeterioratedStucco

I hadn’t thought about the toxic mess as #SeaLevelRise inundates coastal infrastructure. Should make rock fishing a pretty chancy affair, don’t fancy the health outcome of dolphins either.
in reply to Lats (314 ppm)

@Lats @SoftwareTheron @DoomsdaysCW @erikwesselius Sadly 4% of the animals (including humans) alive at the moment are wild animals. The chances of any of them ‘making it’ are astronomically slim. Climate doom is not a world without people full of happy Chimpanzees and Dolphins. They will be long extinct.
in reply to Janet Foggie

@ScotHomestead @Lats @SoftwareTheron @DoomsdaysCW @erikwesselius It is absolutely possible that the descendants of humans evolve into something very much like chimpanzees though. If it becomes too expensive to maintain a large body with a large brain, future humans will shrink and become dumber or go extinct, and if maintaining your body temperature with clothing becomes impossible due to reduced intelligence, future humans will get furry again.
in reply to Bread and Circuses

@whknott @ScotHomestead @Lats @SoftwareTheron @DoomsdaysCW @erikwesselius It depends on whether the Earth completely switches to greenhouse mode or not. If that happens, terrestrial vertebrates larger than a few kilogrammes will just vanish, including us.
in reply to DoomsdaysCW

@DoomsdaysCW @whknott @ScotHomestead @Lats @SoftwareTheron @erikwesselius Anyway, ten million years from now, the biosphere will be back to its normal biodiversity, with new species and entire new ecosystems evolving from the surviving species, just like after every mass extinction.
in reply to Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC

@LordCaramac @whknott @ScotHomestead @Lats @SoftwareTheron @erikwesselius Or an asteroid will re-seed the Earth. As long as there are the right conditions, life will begin again. If not on Earth, some of the outer planets (especially when the Sun starts to expand). But we still shouldn't squander the beauty and diversity we have now -- we should do everything we can to protect it.
in reply to Bread and Circuses

This is a vitally important truth, but so painful and so overwhelming that I think few people will embrace it. But I'm glad to see this message getting out anyway. The words will be seeded, and the right minds will take heed. Thank you.

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in reply to Bread and Circuses

great post, which I would like to repost. I will boost. But archiv.ph link seems broken and the medium.com one requires a signon.
in reply to Bread and Circuses

and they havent even a loose grasp of history ,theres plenty of civilisations as complex as ours died and in some cases almost vanished without trace ,climate crisis aside people should realise we are reaching the end of the road in the west
in reply to Bread and Circuses

If many believe there is truly no decent future, just a painful shitty one of austerity like living in a 3rd world country, many will find no reason to hold back on carbon emissions. They will continue to hold barbecues, get the big truck and fly around the world.

If you want to convince them that the future can be decent if they sacrifice and there will still be minor civilization niceties like cable tv and microwave popcorn then you gotta give them something: hope.

in reply to Bread and Circuses

"However, if people accept that modern civilization is unsustainable, they’ll start learning how to fix things, how to grow their own food, how to use less energy, or how to repurpose and upcycle garbage."

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in reply to Bread and Circuses

Here is a book that I read probably 30 years ago that left an impression: Overshoot: The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change

ISBN: 9780252009884
ISBN-10: 0252009886
thirdplacebooks.com/book/97802…

Description: Our day-to-day experiences over the past decade have taught us that there must be limits to our tremendous appetite for energy, natural resources, and consumer goods. Even utility and oil companies now promote conservation in the face of demands for dwindling energy reserves. And for years some biologists have warned us of the direct correlation between scarcity and population growth. These scientists see an appalling future riding the tidal wave of a worldwide growth of population and technology.

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in reply to Bread and Circuses

I thought you might have been referencing this thread posted by Nika Shilobod
fediscience.org/@NikaShilobod/…


#Climate folks really need to do more to address the doomers. I run a few large forums on science related topics. The deniers disappeared a long time ago and were replaced by this lot. The worst part is, they're such an untapped resource because they care.

It's literally sponsored by big oil and borrows pages (and marketing firms) from the tobacco lobby.

- google.com/amp/s/www.scientifi…
- news.harvard.edu/gazette/story…
- scientificamerican.com/article…


in reply to MHowell

@MHowell Not specifically. I saw that thread, but decided not to respond because it really felt like the OP was just trolling. Pretty distasteful.
in reply to Bread and Circuses

everyone should know about Gail Walicki (aka "Diva of Doom") and her life's work as a climate activist, RIP (1) desdemonadespair.net/2022/06/t…
(2) Her blog doomfordummies.blogspot.com/

#ClimateCrisis #climatescience
#doom #doomer
#doomerism

in reply to Bread and Circuses

@IanAMartin This article is a turning point in how I think about the climate crisis. Thank you!

The end of modern civilization doesn't have to be impossible to conceive, or inevitable. I want to see it as a natural transition towards a different future.

What if the end of modern civilization was looked at as a positive goal? Let's create a positive vision of how we'll handle it!

#Science #Environment #Climate #ClimateChange #Degrowth

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in reply to Bread and Circuses

Yep, have to agree... except for the use of the term 'civilization'. It will surely be the end of late-stage capitalism and the consumer society / culture now in place... but I wouldn't call that *civilization.*

Hopefully in the future there will be a continuation of knowledge transfer and education and the growth of a new culture of sustainability - a new type of civilization growing from the rotting remains of the old?

in reply to anarchademic

in reply to Bread and Circuses

a useful response to gaining information is gratitude and curiosity. the described phenomenon of a person responding to the acquisition of information with apathy I would consider to be an illness.

I haven't observed it personally. when I share information it is with people who can use it and want to use it.

in reply to Bread and Circuses

Economies only grow when population grows. Can population grow forever if the population just behaves "green"? We already know the answer.

Overpopulation has always been the 800-pound gorilla in the Collapse Room that everyone wants to ignore, simply because there's no easy ethical means to address the problem. Well, guess what? Overpopulation doesn't serve the Common Good, and thus is unethical.

The ecosystem will solve the ethical conundrum if it we don't.

in reply to Bread and Circuses

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in reply to Kent Pitman

@kentpitman In terms of civilization collapse or human extinction, even if 97.5% of all humanity was wiped out tomorrow, there would still be more people than the entire population of Earth at the time of the Roman, Parthian and Han Empires and Ptolemy Egypt.

And they all had stable societies, good architecture, roads, plumbing, laws, education, agriculture etc so a massive population decline wouldn’t automatically spell the end of all civilization, climate permitting.

in reply to mazzeri

@mazzeri
With apologies we are now performing a play to illustrate the coversational scenario I meant meant upthread because I really do mean there's a good chance of extinction.

It worries me to need to engage what I consider overly rosy stories of humanity surviving this way, not because I think it would be bad for humanity to survive. I'd love to be wrong on this But it seems likely to me that what's coming is not survivable and I want people to visualize true badness.

I don't want them to do so in order to say there's no hope, but in order to understand that without serious action, the situation you're describing, which is the luckiest of luck, even if we DO act, isn't in scope.

So I often talk of civilization collapse hoping to avoid someone offering an upside, to get them to focus on real badness. But you are, I think, by hinting the worst case isn't complete devastation, feeding people's desire to deny badness. I wish you would not.

If we survive, great, but for now the key thing is to understand that that is FAR from certain. Let's not leave it to chance.

in reply to Bread and Circuses

It's not too late to befriend your local unhoused folks!

We have a lot of experience living through a form of societal collapse and getting by with much less.

in reply to Bread and Circuses

There is an answer though. We just refuse to take it. The doomerism is an issue because it assumes that the loss of the endless economy means the end of humanity, as if we can't exist without profit motive and infinite growth. But capitalism has only existed for about as long as industrialism has. We can exist without it, and have for a very long time.
in reply to Bread and Circuses

At first I thought I would comment something like "so you think our civilization is beyond saving?" But I realized that it's the point of whole your toot. Nothing of what you sent would make sense if it wasn't for the principle that it is beyond saving.
Now is it truly beyond, I don't know. And I think that's the whole point : can we change? Or better again, do we want to?
in reply to Bread and Circuses

Yes, doomism is a real problem
This entry was edited (11 months ago)
in reply to Bread and Circuses

I don't understand why you equate, "Infinite growth is impossible, with, "Our civilization must come to an end." Why can't civilization *change* instead of being hitched permanently to the notion of growth? Why can't we transform our civilization into one that embraces a steady state instead? Or is that just the death of civilization you are referring to, put in different terms?
in reply to Bread and Circuses

I would treat "the stupid notion that 'climate doomers are just as bad as climate deniers" as on par with #ClimateDenial.

The reality keeps turning out to be far worse than climate scientists predict even in their most alarming articles, in significant part due to an instinct to understate and hedge conclusions. To refuse to acknowledge this is every bit a form of denial.

blogs.scientificamerican.com/o…

This entry was edited (11 months ago)
in reply to Bread and Circuses

Sometimes it feels like we’re driving a Ferrari at 250kph directly towards a brick wall.
#ClimateChange
This entry was edited (11 months ago)
in reply to Bread and Circuses

This is an odd take.

Climate doomers' mantra is "we're doomed". "Doom" means "inevitable destruction or ruin", so doomers claim that we as people are headed towards inevitable destruction.

If they believe that, why would they "start learning how to fix things, how to grow their own food, how to use less energy, or how to repurpose and upcycle garbage"?

I've never heard the term "doomer" used to refer to people claiming "modern civilization is doomed". Is this use common?

This entry was edited (11 months ago)
in reply to Bread and Circuses

According to your analogy, we should just party hard, since there's no way to avoid collapse. The next generation is dead already, no sense trying to limit the ruin.