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How to fix moderation on the fediverse


3 people reshared this

@Tio
I have an instance, right?! I control who registers (who is) on this instance....isn't that enough? Why should I control what others see from other instances via mine? It is like Firefox blocking certain websites. These platforms should be regarded as browsers for the users. Yes temporary data is stored from other locations on my server, but it is temporary and that's an important point. You can complain about the users that are registered on my platform, since I am the one allowing that, but you have no right to complain about remote content that is temporarily stored on my server. And if these man-made rules called "laws" do not see this difference, they should adapt.

As for your idea I get more of it now, but I'd very super uncomfortable to have an admin forcefully adding a list of blocked entities in my settings, even if I can undo that. Maybe ask them if they want to apply that blocked list...
These platforms should be regarded as browsers for the users.
I disagree. The browser does not serve you any content. An instance's federated timeline puts you in contact with the content from another instance, even when you did not ask for it. Conversely, if your instance federates with one containing undesired users, it shows them your content without them knowing you in the first place. Imagine what happens if a jewish person registers then publishes on an instance that federates with an instance full of nazi trolls.

Note that I am not saying anything against the shared blocklists solution here, I actually find it very interesting.
An instance's federated timeline puts you in contact with the content from another instance, even when you did not ask for it.
Then we should focus on that aspect. Admins should be able to remove that or restrict that. The visibility of it.
True for that way, but in the other way (not wanting to be exposed to e.g. bigots), it is really about controlling how posts are transmitted to other instances, not just visibility on your own.
If you do not want to be exposed to "bigots" then you can simply not search for them. You can easily control your news feed to only see posts from your chosen friends. I think that's default in friendica for example. Like a search engine, you won't see content unless you search for it.

By the way when you comment it posts twice.

@Tio
By the way when you comment it posts twice.
Oh yes I reacted wrongly to not being able to edit comments in this thread. Won't happen for the future ones, sorry !
@Tio
@Tio
If you do not want to be exposed to "bigots" then you can simply not search for them.
No, I was referring to my previous point :
Conversely, if your instance federates with one containing undesired users, it shows them your content without them knowing you in the first place. Imagine what happens if a jewish person registers then publishes on an instance that federates with an instance full of nazi trolls.
So it is about bigots randomly seing your content and then deciding to target you.
@Tio
Ah ok you mean if others see your content and then decide to troll you. But for one you can make your posts unlisted (only available to your followers not public - friendica has that). Second you can setup your account to not receive any interaction from anyone outside your circle of friends. These are tools already available. So they cannot reach you even if they wanted to.
@Tio
True for that way, but in the other way (not wanting to be exposed to e.g. bigots), it is really about controlling how posts are transmitted to other instances, not just visibility on your own
@Tio
@Tio @Rokosun
These platforms should be regarded as browsers for the users.
I disagree. The browser does not serve you any content. An instance's federated timeline puts you in contact with the content from another instance, even when you did not ask for it. Conversely, if your instance federates with one containing undesired users, it shows them your content without them knowing you in the first place. Imagine what happens if a jewish person registers then publishes on an instance that federates with an instance full of nazi trolls.

Note that I am not saying anything against the shared blocklists solution here, I actually find it very interesting.

Content warning: RE: How to fix moderation on the fediverse (Critical)

Good point actually.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

@stux Is "soft blocking" currently possible on the fediverse? In other words, if I'm an admin, can I make it so posts from a particular user or instance are hidden to everyone on my instance except if they interact with them directly? #Moderation

Dr. Percy reshared this.

@Émilie Fecteau
Em, what you're referring to here is the ability to hide a user from public timelines so that only people who directly interact with them can see their posts. This might already be possible, IDK about that.

What I refer to as soft blocking is different, its an idea I came up with where the admin is able to set the user's blocklist, and the user is able to override these changes if they so wish. And I don't think any fediverse platforms currently support this.
@sÑ‚Ï…xđŸ’™đŸ’›

Dr. Percy reshared this.

I see... so it would be more transparent...

Content warning: In a mood

Content warning: In a mood

Content warning: In a mood

Dr. Percy reshared this.

Content warning: In a mood

I understand that part. It doesn't solve the problems I've mentioned.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

If my friend is on a poorly moderated instance, I want to get them off of that instance, not make an exception to my block just for them. With your system, there is no reason for people to leave bad instances because they can still interact with their friends, and there is no pressure on admins to actually moderate their instances, either. You make blocks completely toothless by having these exceptions.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

@Émilie Fecteau
I felt like I should make a separate post about the social impacts of moderation, and I've addressed your point there - https://social.trom.tf/display/dbc8dc44-7762-f814-5ad9-208146996908

Dr. Percy reshared this.

I read it. We really shouldn't be trying to turn fedi into a peer-to-peer network. Having admins, moderators, and instances with formally written policies has its own set of strengths that I think you're glossing over to make your case (confirmation bias). Social pressure is the only way to keep bad ideas at bay, and giving users individual control of what content they see or don't see makes this less effective.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

I agree with you about most of what you're saying, but until you acknowledge what I'm saying, I can't support you.
@Émilie Fecteau

What are you saying that I should be acknowledging?
@Émilie Fecteau
We really shouldn't be trying to turn fedi into a peer-to-peer network.
We're not trying to make fedi into a peer-to-peer network, in fact I don't think its technically possible.
Having admins, moderators, and instances with formally written policies has its own set of strengths that I think you're glossing over to make your case (confirmation bias)
Okay, then explain some of the advantages that you see with moderators deciding for the users as opposed to users deciding for themselves. You're not giving me any information about this.
Social pressure is the only way to keep bad ideas at bay
One of the main points of that post was to understand how difficult it is to recognize bad ideas from others. People usually just go with the social norms and don't realize what they've been doing was harmful until much later, ideas like slavery, sexism, etc. are some examples of how we've been wrong about what is good and bad, and I'm sure it'll happen again.
I'm intentionally not giving you any information. It's not going to help. We are having an ideological argument right now. People always disagree on these.
You should be able to understand what I'm saying already, without going back and forth with me for multiple days / weeks.
I actually think if I did engage with you, you would just dig in more to what you already believe. đŸ˜…
@Émilie Fecteau
Oh, that makes more sense. Now I at least understand why you're not telling me anything, even though I don't think I'm gonna get your point.
I had the dumbest ideological argument with someone on Facebook one time... I totally forgot what it was about... something to do with art. Anyway, I went back and forth with the guy for a few hours, and it got me no closer to convincing them. It was up to them to understand what I was saying, not me to break through their ideology.

2 people reshared this

@Émilie Fecteau

I just sent you a message about it, basically if you look at this like an argument then its not gonna work. I don't like having arguments to make the other person change their mind. Especially when I write about something online, that is for explaining some things and having a discussion about it. Did you see the conversation me and Tio had below that post? Did you see the replies of others below this post? That is how you have a proper discussion.
@Émilie Fecteau
And you also made some good points earlier, and that's what initially gave me the idea to write that post.
@Émilie Fecteau
I actually think if I did engage with you, you would just dig in more to what you already believe. đŸ˜…
BTW, if you really do have a good point and explain it well then this won't happen. Also its not like its a competition where we're trying to make the other person believe us, its more like we're explaining our point to others, that's why I made a separate post about it, because I wasn't really trying to change your mind, but I just wanted to explain about the social impacts of moderation so that others can read my post and share their thoughts about it.
@Émilie Fecteau
I'm intentionally not giving you any information. It's not going to help.
I'm sorry, but I don't know how to understand someone's point of view without them explaining that to me. I don't even know what you want me to understand or acknowledge, lol.
We are having an ideological argument right now. People always disagree on these.
If people disagree so what? This doesn't mean you shouldn't be explaining your argument. If you don't tell me then I'm not magically gonna "get it" and come back saying you were right.
Well, that's what I'm saying. You gotta think about what I'm saying first. I've talked with you about this stuff a few times already.
@Émilie Fecteau
If my friend is on a poorly moderated instance, I want to get them off of that instance, not make an exception to my block just for them.
If you want to pressure your friends into leaving (what you define as) bad instances, you still can decide to not unblock them, except you have to take responsibility for that.
there is no pressure on admins to actually moderate their instances
There is still actually the pressure related to discoverability. There is also the question of what happens to boosts.

@Rokosun
The long term consequences of this mindset are not pretty. You will decide for hundreds/thousands of users at once. Keep that in mind.

And let me give you an example: I know someone who tries to normalize nudity so she appears topless in many of her videos/photos. Most humans are afraid of the female nipple so she finds it hard to have a social presence. Now the only instances that allow nudity also allow all sort of crap: nazi, gore, etc.. She now makes an account there. You then see some of these crazy people interacting with your instance. I am a user on your instance and friends with this girl. You block that instance, and you have removed my contact with this person. Not good.

There are lots of saner ways to deal with this that won't ruin the fediverse.
@Émilie Fecteau
Not just transparent, but if any particular user wants to unblock an instance for themselves, then they could do that. This prevents them from loosing contact with friends in case if that instance got blocked. Remember when you unblocked Aaron's instance so that you could talk to him? You could do that because the blocklist you applied was a user level block, that's the advantage of it.

Content warning: RE: How to fix moderation on the fediverse (Critical)

Dr. Percy reshared this.

Hello @roko@social.trom.tf -- I like your idea because it adds another option for moderation, and extra options are (usually) a good thing. I'm not a programmer, so I have no idea if it's feasible to implement it.

I don't think there's one single correct way to handle moderation. Some users will want complete control over who they block, and others will want to outsource part or all of this work to an admin/moderator. This is a matter of personal preference. And some admins will want to protect their community of users, and others would rather just block the illegal and legally-risky stuff. Your suggestion provides another option for everyone.

Given that your idea doesn't exist in software at present, I wonder if there's an easy way to share suggested blocklists, for either admins or individual users to use. Since everyone has their own idea of who to block, a single centralized "Fediblock" list might be doomed. But maybe just a Fediverse group open to admins, but readable by all, where someone could post their list of who they're blocking and why.
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