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Bitwarden is a free open source password manager for computers and mobile devices. You can follow their official accounts at:

➡️ @bitwarden@fosstodon.org (main account)

➡️ @bitwarden@tilvids.com (videos)

➡️ @Bitwarden@pixey.org (photos & clips)

Their website is at bitwarden.com

(New post due to additional official accounts)

#BitWarden #FOSS #FLOSS #Libre #FreeSoftware #OpenSource #Password #Passwords #PasswordManager #Business #Productivity #Office #Apps

in reply to Tio

I think the prices are for storage and support?

"Free" refers to the libre licence of the software itself, you don't have to use the developers' services at all.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to FediFollows has moved!

I think the prices are for storage and support?


So what is free then?

"Free" refers to the libre licence of the software itself


Then I wonder why not link to that? Also, the word "free" is so confusing here.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to Tio

There have been very, very many discussions about what the word "free" means in FOSS.

In this context, it means free as in you are allowed to download, distribute, alter the software.

The prices are for hosting and support labour, not for the software.

You don't have to use their hosting or their support if you don't want to.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to FediFollows has moved!

Ok so I have a website webape.site/ - it is free. If you send people there they will realize that well, of course, they have to pay for "my services", but hey the software that I use is "free". See the confusion? If you are telling people to follow Bitwarden and say it is free but link to their "services" website that are paid for, then I hope you understand it is highly confusing. Link to their Github page if you are talking about their software and not their business. Right? :)
in reply to Tio

Well, but here @FediFollows did not say @bitwarden was free, but mentioned #Bitwarden was "free open source" and then pointed to their fedi accounts, and the main website which contain both a Github link and a dedicated Open Source page.
in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

As I have mentioned many times in conversations over here (the fedi) :) - saying "Bitwarden is a free open source password manager for computers and mobile devices." then link to a paid service is confusing. This is my main point.

I understand the context behind FOS, but the wording is confusing, so much so that I suspect many, including @FediFollows are confusing in this case the Bitwarden client/server software that is Open Source, with the services that they provide. Else they should have directly link to the Github page.

We have to be careful of such muddying of the software waters. Many companies do this on purpose so we must not be naive. ;)

in reply to Tio

Hey Tio, appreciate the discussion and just wanted to clarify that the Bitwarden website allows for creation of free accounts (unlimited passwords on unlimited devices) and download of free clients. Optional paid plans can be layered on to, but the free account includes the core features required to manage secure credentials. Paid plans help fund free accounts and costs related to development, maintenance and support.
in reply to Bitwarden

Hi there. I fully understand that. It is great that you open sourced your software. However isn't your free plan freemium? Meaning, can we define it as such?

Freemium, a portmanteau of the words "free" and "premium," is a pricing strategy by which a basic product or service is provided free of charge, but money (a premium) is charged for additional features, services, or virtual (online) or physical (offline) goods that expand the functionality of the free version of the software.

The "free" plan lacks certain features such as:

in reply to Tio

There are a lot of great articles on FOSS out there, including that many offer paid options to compliment and continue to offer free services. If there was cap on passwords or device limits, that could be an issue, but for an open source password manager, it does just that, manage your passwords, unlimited, for free. You can also self-host. Paid plans offer further functionality but do not take away the core experience.
in reply to Bitwarden

I do not try to say you are without reason to implement such marketing schemes, and if the money goes towards the support of the software itself then that's great. But from the official definition/understanding of the concept of freemium, Bitwarden does provide a freemium account.

Google and the like use such schemes too, and provide a limited version of their software to then gain more paid subscribers. How is Bitwarden different in that regards? I would not call Youtube, Gmail, Google Photos and the like free. They are paid services + freemium accounts + ad-based access and such. But they are clearly not free, you trade something for these services: currency, data, attention (via ads).

in reply to Tio

I think that is a great question and I would say that the main difference is that Bitwarden community members are not the product, we never sell your data or serve you ads.

If you are interested, you can also check out a recent article from our CEO on this issue: bitwarden.com/blog/defining-an…

And let me know what you think.

The FOSS discussion is definitely a big one, with proponents on both sides of the equation.

in reply to Bitwarden

reshared this

in reply to Tio

‘fully featured’ is referring to do what the name of the product is, to be a password manager, you can store and manage an unlimited number of passwords on any number of devices. There is no cap on password storage or device limits, the other features are not required to fill this promise and are available on other plans for those seeking it.
in reply to Bitwarden

So fully featured means without those features that are for the paid subscriptions... Because you are saying the features included in the "free" version are full enough for a password manager. Ok. I find the wording and the explanation very confusing. TOTP, YubiKey, FIDO2, Duo can be seen as essential for a password manager. TOTP especially.

I am also concerned that in the future you may add more features that are necessary, but only for the paid subscriptions. I've seen this before.

We all due respect, I do not trust Bitwarden and their future plans, their promises and approach. Like I do not for pretty much any company out there. I've seen this scenario play many times. It is fine, we can leave it as such and I hope you prove me wrong!

Please take my criticism as constructive. I am all for providing free access for people, for all kinds of services. We provide over 20 at trom.tf/ and we do so because of the FOSS community.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to Tio

I am personally not at all confused and also do not think there's muddying of the water and misleading stuff.

If I go to the website there's a Free Plan that is hosted by #Bitwarden and there's 2 direct links from the front page that lead me to their open source projects. It is very clear what is paid and what is not. Everything is very informative giving comparison of what I get, and on the Open Source page it is explained how I can self-host.

Exemplary FOSS biz

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

I was talking about the post in question. It says "Bitwarden is a free open source password manager for computers and mobile devices." then it links to a website where it clearly charges you money for it, and it is true they also provide a freemium plan (mind you, not free).
in reply to Tio

Nope. They aren't FOSS, cannot be self-hosted, they aren't even "gratis", as they mislead you and monetize your PII behind your back for advertising and other nefarious purposes.

There are healthy FOSS models where developers erect a company and earn a living from it, right? May they not have a project/product site where they state how they sustain themselves from their work? May others not point to it saying "they are free open source, and this is their website"?

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

So for you something is free if the source code is open and you can use it to self host?
in reply to Tio

No, you are twisting my sentence. The wording was "free open source", that's different than saying something is free.

I think the way the original toot was phrased was totally okay and not leading confusion.

You seem to say that as soon as the word "free" is in the text, you are only allowed to link to the GH repo.

What if repo README only held dev compile instruction, and the site offered full documents, transparency on offerings, accessible, easy-to-navigate.

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

in reply to Tio

It is here that it becomes a bit of nitpicking and maybe we just agree to disagree

The original toot had separate parts to convey the info:

1) Bitwarden is a free open source password manager for computers and mobile devices

2) You can follow their official accounts at

3) Their website is at bitwarden.com

As a person who doesn't strongly grasp what FOSS is I would still like to start on the landing page that explains what #Bitwarden, then drill-down.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

I understand but them saying "Bitwarden is a free open source password manager for computers and mobile devices" they should have at least linked to that, rather than to a page where they talk about prices. We can leave it at that, but if this is confusing for me, I bet it is confusing for pretty much everyone who is not a "software nerd" and into "FOSS".

And there is no reason to make things confusing:

Bitwarden provides a client/server software that is open source, thus anyone can self-host it. Here you can read more bitwarden.com/open-source/

Bitwarden also provides freemium + paid-for services here bitwarden.com/pricing/

Done. Easy. :)

in reply to Tio

The reason why this is confusing is because we use the word free to mean different things. Free in FOSS is short for freedom, but maybe a better alternative is to use words like libre which some people already do. FLOSS is Free/Libre open source software, this might make more sense. In the end, the language is what's causing a lot of confusion here.
@FediFollows @humanetech @bitwarden

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to Rokosun

And I do agree that when calling something like Nextcloud as FLOSS then its better to link to the Github page or wherever they provide documentation for the software. You could add to that by saying they also offer paid for services and then link to their services page, this will clear all confusions.
@FediFollows @humanetech @bitwarden
in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

in reply to Tio

I see this point, and yes there are a lot of challenges sustaining oneself from FOSS, but its a different point than what started the discussion.

Original point was you suggesting to @FediFollows to reformulate their post because of the word "free" in "free open source" would be very confusing if a website linked further on had pricing information on it. And that the right way to communicate was linking to Github instead.

Given how that website is set up, I disagree. That's all

in reply to Tio

I suggested #WebApe as a candidate to #delightful libre hosters, maintained by @jonatasbaldin btw..

codeberg.org/jonatasbaldin/del…

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

Yes thank you but I looked at it and I would not say that I provide free (libre) hosting, but the opposite: paid for. You see we may have deep disagreements as to what is "free", but for me when you trade something in order to get something else in return, it is not free. WebApe is separate from our trade-free services such as trom.tf for a reason. To not muddy the concept of free. I provide paid-for services via WebApe, non-free (trade-based), but free services (trade-free) via trom.tf. That's the difference.

Thank you for the submission tho, I appreciate it.

in reply to Tio

Here again, better wording solves the issue - #WebApe is a paid for service that helps you host and maintain servers for FLOSS programs like Mastodon, Peertube, etc.
@FediFollows @humanetech @jonatasbaldin @bitwarden

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to Rokosun

It is muddying when some go in-between. And they provide some free hosting for example, but limited, and then paid for plans. So then others think that Bitwarden is free, while missing out on the fact that it is "Bitwarden minus certain features" that is "free". I am also not saying all of these people are willingly deceiving the rest, but I do say that many many companies do. They lure you in with their "free" plans, freemiums or ad based or data collection tactics, to then grab your currency too.

I remember when Google Photos offered unlimited storage, to then 2 years later stopping that and now millions of users had lots of photos stored there, so what would they do? Well pay for it to be able to keep on using that "unlimited" service. My mother was in that sort of situation and then we felt forced to pay for it eventually.

in reply to FediFollows has moved!

Reminder: VaultWarden exists, and seems to be easier to self host.
in reply to Teknikal_Domain

It also doesn't eat resources like crazy, the vanilla Bitwarden stack is a nightmare.

Vaultwarden is what you should host.

in reply to Latte macchiato :blobcoffee: :ablobcat_longlong:

Sure, but I can only highlight things on this account that have a Fedi account.

I can't post about anything that isn't on the Fedi.

in reply to FediFollows has moved!

Perhaps you wanted to link to their Open Source project github.com/bitwarden ? Their software seems open source indeed, but bitwarden.com is anything but free :P
in reply to FediFollows has moved!

Its open source and they offer the software, the service on their servers and the browser extension for free.
in reply to RCC

Check the page more carefully they disable features for the "free" version. Classic "freemium". Still not free...
in reply to FediFollows has moved!

Bitwarden gets my vote. Use it at work, and at home have paid for the family plan.

Hint for use at work: For a corporation where DNS subzones denote different security zones with different passwords, set the "Default URI match detection" (in options) to be "Regular expression". Then you can assign different passwords for each zone/subzone instead of managing each unique FQDN. It's a big time saver.

in reply to Sreedev Krishnakumar

Thanks for the support all! Paid plans ensure Bitwarden will continue to be available for free (covering server, hosting, customer support costs).

Free accounts store an unlimited number of usernames/passwords, on an unlimited number of devices.

There are many FOSS services that also offer paid solutions.

Regarding using a Vaultwarden server, they still use official Bitwarden clients which require development and maintenance.

in reply to Bitwarden

there is also the point that #vaultwarden hasn't been audited, if that is important for your use case
in reply to FediFollows has moved!

Tio, I will not be sucked into a Derridean elliptical argument about the unmeaning of the word "free" and how Bitwarden are capitalist pig dogs. If you don't like Bitwarden or their use of the word "free" on the free plan, don't use their software, and certainly don't donate to their developers or spend bloodsoaked currency on a paid plan. I love Bitwarden and use it every day.
in reply to RCC

Unknown parent

Tio
Lots of FOSS projects offer their own hosting services too, which they HAVE TO charge for.


Yes unfortunately they have to charge for such services. I understand that. But making it clear what is free and what is not, should be a priority. Bitwarden provides an Open Source client/server (software). Bitwarden also provides a freemium account + paid-for accounts via their bitwarden.com business. Easy. We made it clear now.

Unknown parent

Tio
Unknown parent

Tio
youre literally asking them to provide you with completely free of cost hosting and pay for it all from their own pockets.


I never asked for such a thing. I host 20+ services via trom.tf/ and I am considering hosting Vaultwarden (a Bitwarden fork) there too, trade-free. No freemiums and such.

What I asked is for them to admin that their "free" plan is freemium, and for others who talk about such pieces of software to differentiate between the software itself that can be called "free and open source" and the services that these companies provide, that are trade-based / freemiums.

there has to be some way for them to earn some money to keep the project running.


Unfortunately in this world this is the case, and I scream for more than a decade now how this is insanity. We have plenty of resources to provide for all, for free. It is an unfortunate situation but I am acutely aware of it and trying to showcase ways of doing it better via our TROM project.

Unknown parent

Tio
Bitwarden provides freemium accounts and call them as "free". This is confusing and disingenuous. Bitwarden does not seem to promote other servers for when you try to login with their own online app. Bitwarden overall sells software-features + services, while matrix/element only sells services.
Unknown parent

Tio
That sounds much better! Let me know if/when you do that.
Unknown parent

Tio

Semantics have to do with words, but Bitwarden provides a less featured software for their "free" account. Those are not words, just facts. And we refer to this as freemium.

Freemium, a portmanteau of the words "free" and "premium," is a pricing strategy by which a basic product or service is provided free of charge, but money (a premium) is charged for additional features, services, or virtual (online) or physical (offline) goods that expand the functionality of the free version of the software.[1][2] This business model has been used in the software industry since the 1980s.


Google, Facebook, Microsoft and pretty much all companies use such tactics. Not accusatory in this context, but just saying it is not mere semantics, it is a marketing strategy.

Unknown parent

Tio
in reply to Tio

Yes, the quote from the Wikipedia page. It says this is a "freemium business model". So "freemium" is the name of the business model. If you look at the diagram depicting it, it says "Free Tier" where things start. Doesn't say "Freemium Tier".

And its a free tier within this freemium model. If you are satisfied with what it offers, namely unlimited pwd storage for all your devices, then you'll never pay. If that promise is broken, then yes complain.

Unknown parent

Tio
Unfortunately many do not understand that these services are not free. That's why I am trying to shed some light here.
Unknown parent

Tio

Not semantics, but based on what they actually do. You can't sell half-full bottles of drinks and call them full.

And making bitwarden look like a freemium service, first of all, is a huge disservice to its FOSS project too.


It is not me doing that, they provide a service that fits perfectly fine in what we describe today as freemium.

Unknown parent

Tio
Element is selling a service not the software and features for software. You could call that as freemium too, but the point is that they do not touch the software. And thus, the software itself is entirely free. Their marketing strategy for their business can be called freemium, same is the case for Bitwarden.
Unknown parent

Tio
They call a limited and thus freemium version of their service, as "free". I suspect it is intentional and it is a wide-practiced marketing strategy. It is usually done to lure in customers to eventually buy the premium packages. Bitwarden is a business, so all fits together well.
Unknown parent

Tio
Give me more info? What do you mean?
in reply to Tio

Sure. They have a freemium business model. But nowhere they are misleading anyone about it. You can't even view the Free Plan without the paid tiers displayed right next to it.
in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

Ok, I'd like to see that being said by them.

But nowhere they are misleading anyone about it.


We should not use the baby brain for these. We know, of course, that this freemium business model is meant to lure in customers, deceive at times, and so forth. That's why many companies they provide "free" access, to get you to buy the "premium" ones.

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

Freemium is yet another ugly side of our trade-system, where humans have to find ways to attract buyers...it is unfortunate.
Unknown parent

Tio
Money free, limited features. I'd accept that :D. Call it as such so we get rid of the confusion that is baked into our trade-based society where so many companies use the same freemium strategies to deceive.
in reply to Tio

Agree, there's a lotta very unfortunate things in our hypercapitalist inherently unsustainable worldwide economic system.

Look, I *really* appreciate the passion and perseverance with which you advocate different, better ways to move forward.

But I think if you are honest your persistence on this thread mostly stems from your advocacy of the concept of "trade-free" versus other uses of "free" that do not match it. As an activist spreading the msg.

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

reshared this

in reply to Tio

I understand and thank you for elaborating.

It is frustrating to see the shenanigans all around us. I just feel that the use of the model, doesn't necessarily guarantee its abuse. And if it is abused it is not inherent to the model, but to the flaws of the people behind it. Any form of criticism is then warranted, but based on their behavior.

Maybe Bitwarden could improve and highlight import/export, migration support from free tier to self-hosted.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

And if it is abused it is not inherent to the model, but to the flaws of the people behind it.


We spent a lot of time at TROM trying to showcase how the environment is ultimately what makes humans be like this or like that. It is a fact, and it is important to embrace it. Else we end up blaming people and never changing the environment, and thus the same environment will create the same kind of people.

In other words, if you live in an environment that is competitive, you'll be competitive, and perhaps egocentric, and greedy.

In any case, I always try to never blame people, but to look at how the env is shaping their behavior. The people behind Bitwarden should understand that I do not blame them in any way.

Dr. Percy reshared this.

in reply to Tio

I agree. That is a way better way of formulating than my "flaws". Thanks.
Unknown parent

Tio
Monetary barriers are freedom blockers too. I know that spiel from FSF, is fine, but confusing and kinda sad to stop at that sort of freedom. It is like you have the freedom to drink a beer, but not the money to do so. Well, then, you have no freedom to have that beer. :D
Unknown parent

Tio
What made you change your mind? I am curious