@anubis2814 Yes, this is still a hurdle for many casual internet users.
I am not sure this is something I know how, or even want to solve myself though.
I know Mastodon is making the sign up process easier by suggesting their main instance as the default one in their official app, but making it easy to pick something else.
For now I'd like to keep this site really simple and let each network work this out on their own.
@Stefan Bohacek @Chris Trottier I think the best idea is to have a site that takes your location, and gives you 3 random instances. I always recommend mid tier personally. Then recommend you read their terms of service. If you don't like their terms or the names, you can re-roll for 3 new different ones. Too many choices can be a serious issue. Also asking if they consider themselves free speech absolutists, shunt them over to pluroma.
Brilliant! I love it. I'm not an expert and get lost at times. I wish that had been around when I was struggling to get my head around it. Thank you. Recommended!
@LucyWildboots 🏳️🌈 @Chris Trottier @Stefan Bohacek I'm actually against specific instances for the average person personally. I think most people don't fit into one bucket and that adds extra complications. Specific instances are good for content creators or artists, they just add complications for the average nobody.
@LucyWildboots It is important not to overshadow this.
Even Maslow's hierarchy of needs prioritizes physiological. Obviously that doesn't exist in the digital space, but it absolutely does matter where you 'call home'.
I feel comfortable exploring and standing in the Fediverse because my portal admin is engaged in protecting me from those who wish me harm.
The preferred device and platform could be asked (Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, stock Android, de-Googled Android...), then whether you need a dedicated app, or if you can/intend to use a browser. If you only ever use an iPhone, and you absolutely need a dedicated app, then everything is out that can't be used through an iOS app.
Text formatting? ( ) Yes → Mastodon is out ( ) No → only Mastodon + forks without Mark... show more
The preferred device and platform could be asked (Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, stock Android, de-Googled Android...), then whether you need a dedicated app, or if you can/intend to use a browser. If you only ever use an iPhone, and you absolutely need a dedicated app, then everything is out that can't be used through an iOS app.
Text formatting? ( ) Yes → Mastodon is out ( ) No → only Mastodon + forks without Markdown ( ) Don't care → no influence
Similar with quotes. Similar with maximum length for your own posts.
Like Japanese culture/anime/manga? ( ) No → MissKey as a whole is out; same goes for instances with an otaku/weeaboo focus elsewhere
And so forth.
Maybe there could be a question if you may be interested in an instance for people in your town/city/area, but only if not all projects that have local/regional instances are already out. The questions where you live would only go on for as long as it still makes sense. If you've already ruled Mastodon out, and all local/regional instances on your continent are on Mastodon, then there won't be a question in which country you live, etc.
In fact, the first question should be what you want to replace in the first place. It isn't always Twitter, so the solution can't always be Mastodon.
@LucyWildboots 🏳️🌈 @Chris Trottier @Stefan Bohacek Ok then yeah I'd say asking if you have an identity or ideology might be a better option. joinmastodon lumps them all together as if they were an "interest". options for finding safe spaces are essential.
@Jupiter Rowland @Chris Trottier @Stefan Bohacek @LucyWildboots 🏳️🌈 I think mastodon is going to be the default, so people will only go with misskey if they are given a reason to. As a friendica user I forget there are a lot of app differences and formatting issues.
@Chris Trottier @Stefan Bohacek @LucyWildboots 🏳️🌈 though an easy fix if they are looking for specific communities is to just send them to the joinmastodon page that puts down theme based groups. Sadly there are no ways to detect and filter ideology and number of moderators on a large scale.
@Potung Thul @Stefan Bohacek @Chris Trottier Language is always changing, i'll bet it will hit the dictionary soon. Verbing words weirds language as calvin put it.
@potungthul Bit off topic, and probably best in a language group (are there any? There should be), but it’s too late. It’s well established that all nouns can be verbed. And now prepositional adjective phrases can be nouned. You will probably be unhappy if you learnt the etymology of many words that were imported, misheard, butchered, re-engineered with local grammar and set loose to breed more words.
@MetalSamurai I am unhappy about the unnecessary ambiguity caused by ignoring grammar of the parts of speech. For example, the word hammer can be verb or noun, but if you take the verb, and convert that to a noun, you could mean the action of hammering, or the actual tool the hammer itself. In this case, "on board" as a verb may mean to be on board, or the action of becoming on board. Ambiguity, all because we were too lazy to say "bring on board".
@potungthul Please do not check the definitions of cleave, sanction or bi-weekly. I have given up throwing my hands in the air when Americans say they want to “table something” at a meeting and promptly remove it from the agenda instead of correctly *adding* it. Words are made of amorphous goo and fighting it will end in tears.
@MetalSamurai You are absolutely right. I protest only because it is my nature to balk against creating even more ambiguity where previously language meant something.
Eventually language will degenerate into a single word that will mean anything of which we happen to be thinking at the moment: "smurf!"
@potungthul If you’re interested you could join the campaign against “I could care less”. Canute, Sisyphus and the little boy with his finger in the dyke have all said they’d lend a hand just as soon as they’ve finished the thing they’re in the middle of just now. With all this support, I’m confident about this one.
@MetalSamurai I know it seems hopeless. Still, it's the principle of the thing, not to take the rest way out. That's why I am here and not on the bird site.
@Potung Thul, @Kevin Davidson, the increasing popularity of the ignorant leads to the death of the proper meaning of words. I love to verbinate words or add some silly adjectivication to them. I do so purely for the comedic affect, it's fun to play with words. Luckily I'm not admired by many and therefor have very little influence over the way people speak. 😁
Suffixes help label the part of speech of a word, so I have no problem with getting an invitation, just an invite. There will always be lazy people in the world, and there will always be a place for those who show how it's supposed to be done.
Every single service is a new and often weird word, so that’s not plain language. Example: People care about their Twitter network, which of the five weird names should they choose to replicate Twitter? There’s no indication. Not to mention none are all that similar to Twitter user base, which leads to disappointment.
So why is there a statement like if you like Twitter try one of these 5 random services. Like I said it’s setting up a new user for an expectation that is almost 100% going to end in disappointment.
I don’t know if you’re arguing just to argue but I’m just at my patience limit. This newbie explainer is implying EVERYONE is reachable on the fediverse, that it’s universal like email.
@kynyc Comparing by function and comparing by community are both useful. Without explaining the distinction, the site as is may make more sense to a technical audience than a general audience.
@slowenough @kynyc It's impossible to say, "This is what this service's community is like" because the reality of federation is that each server hosts a different community.
@kynyc "the reality of federation is that each server hosts a different community"
Any intro to mastodon or fediverse which didn't communicate this would be incomplete, no? (Unless you, say, recommend and assume the community of mastodon.social and similarly-run big servers if you're talking about Mastodon.)
@slowenough why are you even talking about mastodon? Other than being 1st why would a user of that page choose that over the the one that sounds like a spreadsheet or any other of 5.
You state: in easy-to-understand words -- what the Fediverse is, how it works, and what to try.
All the names are gibberish and also there’s a ton of them. What to try, well sure there’s not differentiating between them and also what you try will not be similar in experience, but this is obscured.
I have a fediverse account but for some reason, I can not reach anyone in the world, as claimed. Nor my friends or any celebrities not named mark ruffalo.
Either only Mastodon instances will be suggested because "Mastodon is the standard"/"Mastodon is the default"/"The Fediverse is Mastodon"/whatever, maybe actually because whoever designs something like this doesn't know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon.
Or you get some more or less hidden setting that allows you to choose an instance of another project. If you don't, you only get Mastodon. Result: still 99.99% Mastodon instances being chosen.
Either only Mastodon instances will be suggested because "Mastodon is the standard"/"Mastodon is the default"/"The Fediverse is Mastodon"/whatever, maybe actually because whoever designs something like this doesn't know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon.
Or you get some more or less hidden setting that allows you to choose an instance of another project. If you don't, you only get Mastodon. Result: still 99.99% Mastodon instances being chosen.
What should actually happen is all projects being treated equally, at least all with the same purpose. If there's an Akkoma instance or a CalcKey instance that fits you, then it should be suggested. And if someone demands quotes or text formatting, then they shouldn't get Mastodon slammed into their faces over and over and over again as if there was nothing else.
Or if someone is looking for a replacement for Facebook or Instagram, they shouldn't only get Mastodon instances to pick. The Instagram replacement in the Fediverse is Pixelfed. And the number one Facebook replacement is Friendica, and it has been that since 2010.
It is an amazingly attractive quick introduction to the Fediverse and it guides people to open Fediverse alternatives for the closed platforms that they are currently used to.
@Stefan Bohacek Mobilizon is an event planner. But that's it. It will not cover the social networking and microblogging aspects of Facebook, and I'm not sure how well it does Facebook-style discussion groups.
@paulschoe How many people remember the 90's? Back before corporate controll? I do and I remember being able connect a jabber server to a Yahoo chat service to a Google chat service to facebook chat to twitter ....
@Alexx9811 @m @mahaska Unfortunately, I do not believe that people chose on features. People choose on 3 items: 1) Hype 2) Recommendations. 3) Ease of signing up
Based on hype, I expect that BlueSky will get the largest initial growth. That despite the fact that Jack Dorsey has even said that he likes to replace 'likes' by financial endorsements (mini payments), which he calls: real commitment. This clearly shows what a wolf in sheep's clothes BlueSky is.
@Alexx9811 @m @mahaska 2/2 Based on Ease of signing up, Mastodon comes clearly behind those centralised solutions even though decentralised is what I think people really want.
That means that I put my faith in recommendations. Unfortunately, most of these only occur once people have been burned by choosing based n Hype or on Ease of signing up.
@paulschoe @m @mahaska That makes sense. I'm kind of interested in Calckey as it looks like it might have some things that look pretty cool.
I think it ultimately comes back to what's been said before, the reason Twitter and such are so popular is the plug and play nature of it.
One signs up and they can follow their friends and in cases like Twitter, celebrities and whatnot. Until that's easier anywhere else, I see Bluesky being the most popular.
I believe that in order to improve the onboarding UX, fediverse apps should not be more complicated than Bluesky. We need to empathize more at the app client level and prioritize safe defaults for new users to learn the ropes with the app, even if it means risking the preferences of long-time users
I think that says a lot about how Dorsey sees the platform (and how he saw Twitter): A place where celebrities / influencers provide content to consumers, not a network of peers. He's not building a social network, he's building a parasocial network.
@mnemonicoverload @mahaska @paulschoe @m Wow, that's a really excellent and powerful turn of phrase, I like that a great deal, and it really feels extremely accurate. Very well said.
@beans @paulschoe @m @mahaska 100 percent agree with this. I think the average user just wants to land somewhere that they're up in two seconds and can be connected to people in some fashion. I think some current Fediverse folks are a little resentful because on the one hand they want to grow things, but they want people more committed to being a part of the community, not to have everything led by celebrities and influencers.
@paulschoe @beans @m @mahaska Thanks for that. I set up an account years ago, but wasn't on it a lot after the early going, so I've got a lot to learn about all of this. But I do think the Fediverse is an amazing concept and I'm very excited to learn more about all the myriad possibilities it may hold.
@Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m @mahaska I wish we could meet in the middle, right now the conversations in mastodon are amazing, this one for example. But I fear that what we have right now will perish if we sense those friends that didn’t land here or weren’t geeks in a way, start having meaningful conversations outside of the fediverse because of UX
@Alexx9811 I think the level of perceived complexity is part of it - both my spouse and I are tech types. I found it fairly easy to get up and running in about 10 minutes - one of the local Twitter folk posted he was starting up a server, and the address. Easy to sign up for me, and when that was shutting down, migration was relatively easy. My spouse, not so much. The fact it took a checklist to do the migration for me was a major obstacle for her. Not intuitive
@beans @Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m I'm about to abandon over 2K connections on Fakebook and another 2K+ on Twitterdumb. I've set the date for July 4. Been on Mastodon since November I think. They won't get here, nothing else to do. 😭😭😭
@mahaska @Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m I'm sorry, for centralized social networks theres not much we can do :/
However, there are talks of having a bridge between AT proto and ActivityPub. So, lets say the influencers go to Bluesky and a meaningful fraction of my friends too. We could have an app that fetches those posts and add them into your feed
Totally agreed. What does complicates things somewhat is that Mastodon due to its dominant position has grown an ecosystem of connected apps that other systems don't really have.
So when you give new users the option to choose between the main server software options, but then also include 3rd party app support in the list, I do think people would choose Mastodon. If we compare vanilla server software, Mastodon would be last on my list. But once we factor in things like @phanpy@hachyderm.io it becomes a nobrainer option for Mastodon again for me. Not because of Mastodon, but because Phanpy is simply that good.
And yeah, I'm very much waiting until Phanpy supports other services (or the services implement masto API fully), because that'll be a real gamechanger imo.
Maybe it only backfills after following? I haven't checked the profile of a followed user. It seems to function pretty much identically to how it's been on Mastodon, at least for me. Maybe I'm just not sure what profile backfilling is, if not filling in posts from before...
also I'm pretty sure my handle having "calckey.social" gives away that I'm using calckey 😆
I've looked at this as the difference between a social network and social Media. A network is where everything and everyone talks to each other, whereas social media tends to be a feed of dubious quality quasi-information.
@m @mahaska @paulschoe Thank you for that. It's cool to hear people's thoughts.
I am naturally curious about tech, but often my reach exceeds my grasp in terms of understanding everything. I feel like I know more than a casual social media user, but I'm definitely not as well versed as many people on here who really get this stuff at a level I don't.
One largely disseminates information from whichever person happens to have a microphone at any given moment in time to people who absorb and react to information, whereas the other is people trading or sharing information amongst themselves as a peer group.
Yes, the idea of the media (newspapers, television, movies. etc.) is typically uni-directional.
However, a network is typically multi-directional... There maybe nodes or branches in the pathway, but even the lowest leaf can communicate with along any path of the tree efficiently.
There are quite a few analegies that can be used for thiese types of structures.
@m I’m trying different combinations. I have a bunch of computers, but the screens are full of work stuff, so I don’t really use them for social media. I use mobile. I’ve got CalcKey/Kimis, Friendica/Relatica and Mastodon/Ice Cubes
So far the Mastodon/Ice Cubes combo is the fastest and most generally useful, but I’m annoyed I’m missing out on long posts when I want them, and not seeing/sending emoji reactions.
@m @MonaApp Ice Cubes fetches all the replies. It’s been a long time since I used the Mastodon web interface as it annoyed me too much, and that was definitely one thing that I felt was broken, along with the absence of threading (I see that’s coming in the next update). It would be nice if Ice Cubes supported some of the other platforms. I was using Mona with Friendica, but it was a bit odd. I’m hoping Relatica will more closely match the native UI.
@feld Adding to that, it needs communities in general! And #Mastodon isn’t meant for communities, it’s for posting. How do ya get more people to embrace #Fediverse community platforms such as #Friendica and #Hubzilla?
@feldNo, it doesn’t. Nostr is one big hugbox and it sucks because they’re too unified on Bitcoin worship. AT is still far behind both and it’s been 3.5 years since they started.
I think this is a big mistake. What made FB and Twitter and Youtube cool once upon a time was that they didnt run on advertisements or charge anything.
Once they started doing that, things went downhill. I feel like this is going to turn individuals into advertisers.
Im trying to be very vocal about my opinion on this. But I dont want to come off as rude. So forgive anything that might sound harsh.
It would be nice if the different platforms all agreed on things. Good for end users, if there were a wider range of mobile clients that all just worked with whichever platform you chose. I wonder if it would slow down the diversity of new or experimental features. Also, turns out bikeshed.party is blocked by my Mastodon instance, but I realised I was missing some replies.
There are lots of opinions about algorithms. I might be convinced to try something minimal and open source. Say to maybe weed out spam/bots. But buy-in-large I am going to stay away from anything that rewards users for engagement.
@twizzay @mahaska @Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m I find that filters (as mastodon has) as well as the occasional block/mute/disable boosts from user is more than enough for me right now to remove any spam... I used to use reddit a lot around when I joined fedi and when I started using fedi seriously it was quite surprising to see how little I actually needed any "omniscient algorithm" to control what content I saw
@fediversenewsThe Twitter algorithm is not perfect, but it works and they’ve already open sourced part of it. Just a matter of time before someone experiments with it here, let alone whatever Blue Sky tries.
Idrc as long as there are options that don’t suck. It seems like there will probably always be instances somewhere that keep a classical, chronological feed, just because a lot of people hate algorithms.
@fediversenewsIf I had to guess, just from surface level, the main thing that Twitter is doing manually is creating topical categories, which are not very useful. They’re mostly for promoting celebrities.
What is useful are the posts it promotes from people your follows follow, and important posts from people you follow. It’s much easier to find new people through that than it is on sites without it.
I think there is probably significantly more work that goes into it than that. But I dont really know for sure either.
You might persuade me to try something like that but it would be a pretty hard bargain. I think hashtags, instances built on topics, and search queries are doing fine just the way they are at helping me fund cool people.
@Trenton Matthews @feld First step: Stop mollycoddling newbies by dragging them all to a few huge Mastodon instances and implying that Mastodon is the Fediverse.
Stop making Mastodon or even mastodon.social the frontpage of the Fediverse.
Have people know how big the Fediverse is. Have them know that there's more in the Fediverse than Mastodon, and I mean right away. Don't let them spend half a year on their huge instances in the belief that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
The longer they live with the mindset there's nothing else out there, the more they'll see all the other Fediverse projects as shoddy knock-offs of their beloved Mastodon. Or competition. Or intruders into their nice and cosy "Mastodon network" which isn't even an enclosed network.
This should also concern tech media and mass media. They have to stop talking about Mastodon as an enclose... show more
@Trenton Matthews @feld First step: Stop mollycoddling newbies by dragging them all to a few huge Mastodon instances and implying that Mastodon is the Fediverse.
Stop making Mastodon or even mastodon.social the frontpage of the Fediverse.
Have people know how big the Fediverse is. Have them know that there's more in the Fediverse than Mastodon, and I mean right away. Don't let them spend half a year on their huge instances in the belief that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
The longer they live with the mindset there's nothing else out there, the more they'll see all the other Fediverse projects as shoddy knock-offs of their beloved Mastodon. Or competition. Or intruders into their nice and cosy "Mastodon network" which isn't even an enclosed network.
This should also concern tech media and mass media. They have to stop talking about Mastodon as an enclosed network or even a monolithic, centralised website. They, too, have to treat Mastodon and everything else in the Fediverse the same.
The phenomenon is not Mastodon. The phenomenon is the Fediverse.
Oh, and I can name three active Fediverse projects that are older than Mastodon. So Mastodon wasn't the first either.
@Trenton Matthews, I've seen a decent approach being used by folks creating guppe groups to unify their conversations. I don't know that discoverability of these groups is as easy as the creation of them though. Seems like it'd be quite easy to wind up with groupname, group-name, and group_name, all having the same conversations.
@eshep @Trenton Matthews Guppe seems to me like a dirty hack by someone who wanted to introduce groups/forums to Mastodon but didn't know at that point that more powerful solutions already existed (Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams)).
Group discoverability on Guppe is hit-and-miss. It depends on how popular your group is, for Guppe only lists 50 groups whereas Friendica lists all of its forums.
@Jupiter Rowland, yes, a very hacky solution, and yes, I know proper forum-like implementations exist in Friendica, they're fantastic! Equally great is Lemmy being presented in Friendica as a forum. However, being that none of those have a very wide scope of discoverability, it's virtually impossible for a common Mastodon user to find one, much less know about them to begin with. It also wouldn't surprise me to see Guppe preferred over it because other platforms are seen as ""rivals"" or ""clones"" of Mastodon, and Guppe seen as something internal to it because that's how it's been presented to them.
If only there were a way for folks to see what features exist on each platform before committing to one. Simply telling folks this≈that helps but just isn't quite enough. Nor does the "just join here cause it's what I use"' approach.
And hacky as it may be, I'm happy to see folks wanting a bit stricter conversation control have found a way to do so across the fediverse. It helps those looking for a more intimate atmosphere to find a home here.
@eshep Well, the discoverability of forums themselves is better on Friendica than on Guppe. As I've said, Guppe only lists 50 forums, Friendica lists them all.
But in order to use Friendica, you need to know it exists.
Almost all newcomers to the Fediverse spend their first three to six months "knowing" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Then they start discovering stuff that's bolted onto Mastodon. Like Guppe.
Then they start discovering stuff that's actively being advertised on Mastodon by its creators with thousands upon thousands of boosts. This only applies to Pixelfed and maybe PeerTube. Still, to them, Mastodon is the only one of its kind.
Even later, they may stumble upon other ActivityPub-based microblogging projects. Not even all of them yet. If their worldview wasn't shattered in the previous paragraph, it is now.
And unless this happens through one of my posts, chances are it'll take them even longer to discover projects that a)... show more
@eshep Well, the discoverability of forums themselves is better on Friendica than on Guppe. As I've said, Guppe only lists 50 forums, Friendica lists them all.
But in order to use Friendica, you need to know it exists.
Almost all newcomers to the Fediverse spend their first three to six months "knowing" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Then they start discovering stuff that's bolted onto Mastodon. Like Guppe.
Then they start discovering stuff that's actively being advertised on Mastodon by its creators with thousands upon thousands of boosts. This only applies to Pixelfed and maybe PeerTube. Still, to them, Mastodon is the only one of its kind.
Even later, they may stumble upon other ActivityPub-based microblogging projects. Not even all of them yet. If their worldview wasn't shattered in the previous paragraph, it is now.
And unless this happens through one of my posts, chances are it'll take them even longer to discover projects that a) go beyond microblogging, b) aren't based on ActivityPub while still speaking it and c) were even created before Mastodon. All three apply to Friendica. Seriously, I wouldn't wonder if many of those who have added @Fediverse News think it's on Mastodon.
Reactions upon the discovery of the Fediverse beyond Mastodon vary, especially if they come with being told that the Fediverse is not just Mastodon plus shoddy Mastodon knock-offs, but there's stuff in the Fediverse that's better at what Mastodon does than Mastodon itself. Some people react with disbelief, some react with out-right denial, and some react the Krikkit way and want everything that isn't Mastodon to be shut down or at least excluded from the Fediverse.
You've already written it: Guppe was created as a Mastodon add-on. Friendica is six years older than Mastodon and out-classes Mastodon in just about everything. Of course, those who have discovered Mastodon to be nice and cosy and perfect don't take the revelation that there's something that's better than Mastodon kindly, so it's only natural that they prefer Guppe.
Also, Guppe has the "advantage" over Friendica of not requiring another user account, another login, potentially another password to memorise. A killer feature for casual Mastodon users.
@queenslight @feld Friendica has super weird and counterintuitive user onboarding. And I'm a veteran Fediverse user. I would never send a new user there.
I count myself as one of the lucky ones. Having come from diaspora looking for a bit more in the features department, I did a fair bit'a shoppin round before settlin on Friendica, then a bit more before finally choosin who ran it.
@jupiter_rowland “Seriously, I wouldn't wonder if many of those who have added FediverseNews think it's on Mastodon.” And those who do know - why would we care? Since it’s set up as a public federating group, I can interact with it trivially on Mastodon or pop over to Friendica for a different user interface. Not sure how the membership & moderation work though - if I were a problem, does the group just ignore me? Does that carry to mstdn?
@Bruce G_NS Those who know aren't part of the problem.
It's those who are fully convinced that the Fediverse is only Mastodon and who may go haywire when you tell them that they are already using a non-Mastodon Fediverse project by being connected to Fediverse News.
I think it's a hack who wanted to introduce groups to Mastodon users. Because Friendica and Lemmy and Hubzilla and whatever aren't where the people are.
And telling the people that those features they're looking for exist over there hasn't been a super effective strategy.
@jupiter_rowland Respectfully, sir, does it make a difference? If what I’m seeing on my Mastodon feed works for me, but there’s a better interface for some activity (pixelfed, for example), but I can still see it on Mastodon even if I can’t thumbs up/down it, and reply, I think the distinction is moot. This is sounding more and more like the neverending “which email tool to use on my phone” in our house. Different UIs enabling different features
@Bruce G_NS Okay, let me explain it to you with a fictional dialogue between me and a Fediverse News subscriber who's convinced that all of the Fediverse is Mastodon.
Me: You're literally using something that isn't Mastodon, but in the Fediverse. Fediverse News is on Friendica.
Them: But Friendica is a Mastodon server.
Me: No, it isn't.
Them: But it has to be. How else can I possibly use it if it isn't on Mastodon?
Me: Because Mastodon and Friendica speak a common language, ActivityPub. Still, Friendica is an absolutely unrelated project. Face it, there's more in the Fediverse than just Mastodon.
Them: WTF? Then Friendica is a group add-o
... show more
@Bruce G_NS Okay, let me explain it to you with a fictional dialogue between me and a Fediverse News subscriber who's convinced that all of the Fediverse is Mastodon.
Me: You're literally using something that isn't Mastodon, but in the Fediverse. Fediverse News is on Friendica.
Them: But Friendica is a Mastodon server.
Me: No, it isn't.
Them: But it has to be. How else can I possibly use it if it isn't on Mastodon?
Me: Because Mastodon and Friendica speak a common language, ActivityPub. Still, Friendica is an absolutely unrelated project. Face it, there's more in the Fediverse than just Mastodon.
Them: WTF? Then Friendica is a group add-on for Mastodon?
Me: No, Friendica has got literally nothing to do with Mastodon. It's wholly independent. Actually, it can do everything that Mastodon can do.
Them: So it's some shoddy Mastodon knock-off that can do forums?
Me: No. Friendica can do all that Mastodon can do without Mastodon, it can do it better than Mastodon, and it can do even more on top that Mastodon can't do.
Them: Lies. Why are you fucking lying to me?
Me: Oh, and Friendica is older than Mastodon. Mastodon is from 2016, Friendica is from 2010. When Mastodon was launched, Friendica had been around for a whopping six years already.
Them: Like. What. The. Ever-loving. FUCK?!?!?! Stop bullshitting me! Friendica is nothing but a fucking Mastodon clone, and all that's good about it is the forums, and I don't want anything else than that!
Me: I'm not bullshitting you. If I am, then so is Wikipedia. Release date: July 1st, 2010. That's a fact. Deal with it.
Them: So... there's... like two Mastodons, and they're both in the Fediverse? WTF?
Me: There are many projects in the Fediverse that are like Mastodon but with more features. Pleroma, Akkoma, MissKey, CalcKey, FoundKey... There are many other projects that aren't like Mastodon. Friendica is more like Facebook. I'm on Hubzilla which is even more powerful than Friendica and still older than Mastodon. And they can all communicate with Mastodon.
Them: What... WTF... NOOOOO I DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT I WANT MY FEDIVERSE TO BE ONLY MASTODON AND NICE AND COZY AND CUDDLY AND I DON'T WANT NOTHING ELSE IN MY BELOVED FEDIVERSE MAKE IT GO AWAY I WANT MY MASTODON-ONLY FEDIVERSE BACK NOOOOOOOO THIS IS TOO MUCH SOMEONE PLEASE FEDIBLOCK EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T MASTODON
End of demonstration.
I'm not even kidding, I've read a story about someone from the "Fediverse = Mastodon" crowd who actually blocked a Friendica user for telling them that the Fediverse is not just Mastodon and for allegedly "intruding" into their timeline with some black hacking magic or something.
Sometimes I wish I could go around, grab every single one of those who have joined since the #TwitterTakeover by the shoulders, shake them and tell them, now listen here, #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse. Tell them there's more to the #Fediverse than #Mastodon until they understand why my "toots" look so weird. Also tell them it isn't worth fighting for Mastodon to include certain features. There are more microblogging services in the Fediverse, and they all have these features already, and they all connect to Mastodon.
So you want quote-tweets? Stop pestering Eugen Rochko for including something in Mastodon which he firmly rejects. Go join e.g. #Akkoma instead, and you've got your quote-tweets. And you can always reconnect with all your Mastodon friends just the same as on Mastodon.
Many are positively surprised when they learn that. They've spent some four months in the Fediverse, thinking Mastodon is all there is to the Fediverse. It feels like a whole new world to be explored.
But I've come to the realisation that millions of Mastodon users don't want any of that. They don't want to know about other projects in the Fediverse. It confuses them. They've spent their entire online lives in monolithic, centralised, corporate data silos like #Facebook, #Instagram and #Twitter. It was hard enough to wrap their minds around Mastodon's decentralised architecture with lots of independent #instances, now called #servers.
All they wanted was a Twitter clone without #ElonMusk, but otherwise identical to Twitter. When someone showed them mastodon.social (which isn't even the official Mastodon website; this is), they expected to find just that. And then they first had to learn what instances are and afterwards choose one because mastodon.social didn't let them in. They're still shell-shocked from that. In fact, many of them still wish there were no instances, and Mastodon was a centralised silo like Twitter, for that'd make things easier.
Worse yet, there isn't that one fully-featured mobile app on Apple App Store and Google Play Store that bears the same name as the whole project. There is one, but it sucks, and everyone urges them to use a third-party app that isn't even named Mastodon. So they have to pick something again, and then they have to remember the name of their Mastodon app because it doesn't have "Mastodon" written under the icon.
And then folks like me come along and tell these people that the Fediverse is #NotOnlyMastodon. That some of the instances out there aren't on Mastodon, but parts of wholly different projects. Now, they've just gotten used to the Fediverse being decentral and made up of lots of independent instances of Mastodon. But then someone overthrows this hard-to-grasp world view once again by mentioning that it is, in fact, not only Mastodon that the Fediverse is made of. Worse yet, that someone starts rattling down name after name of other Fediverse projects.
Nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. That's too much. Too much information for someone who came to Mastodon expecting an iPhone app for another black-box internet platform.
Mastodon had just started feeling cosy to them. Well, except for too much #Linux and #FLOSS technobabble. And except for still being hard to use with all these instances and a lack-lustre official mobile app. In fact, except for this lack-lustre official mobile app being the only available iPhone app for Mastodon until recently because everyone only made apps for Android for reasons that don't belong here. They feel like they finally know the Fediverse, that they don't have to learn anything about it anymore, and they've come to love what they know.
But all of a sudden, all these other Fediverse projects burst into their lives. All at once. More nerdy tech information is being shoved down their throats. And the Fediverse doesn't feel the same anymore, now that they know that not everything is Mastodon.
Again, yes, some may look at me in curiosity, their chin resting on their palms, and say, "That's intriguing, tell me more!"
But many others reject this entirely. They cover their ears and go, "La la la la la, I don't want to hear it!" They're those people who speak of the Fediverse as if it's only Mastodon, whom you tell that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon, and who then continue speaking of the Fediverse as if it's only Mastodon. They want it to only be Mastodon because that's easier to understand, and they ignore everyone and everything that says otherwise.
Truth be told, they may have an additional justification. And that's the kind of people who are in the Fediverse, but not on Mastodon, and whose posts come "flooding" into Mastodon. Weeaboos, furries and other weirdos on #Pleroma. Worse tech geeks on #Akkoma and #CalcKey than even those on Mastodon. On top of that, even worse tech geeks in the shape of the "supremacist" old guard from #Friendica, #Hubzilla and #Streams who play key roles in all rallys against centralised services that'd make Mastodon easier to use for former Twitter users.
A closer look may reveal that all their projects are "unusable" for someone who is used to Mastodon, even more so for someone who freshly comes over from Twitter or Facebook. And yet, all of them even claim that what they use is better than Mastodon. Another reason to not like a not-only-Mastodon Fediverse.
Another reason, in fact, to want the Mastodon-only Fediverse "back" that never even existed in the first place.
However, you can't really protect these people from the parts of the Fediverse beyond Mastodon, even if you want to. For a user of something that isn't Mastodon, this is even more difficult. In particular, you can't pretend to them that you're on Mastodon when what comes out of your instance clearly doesn't look like it came from Mastodon. And I'm not necessarily only talking about character counts. You can't help but go on confusing them. That is, unless you want to sacrifice all the extra features of the project you use and move to Mastodon itself.
In all honesty, I expect a campaign for fediblocking everything that isn't Mastodon to emerge before the end of the year. And no, the campaigners won't want to hear that this is nigh-impossible. They'll want it to happen, no matter how.
@Christopher As I've said, there are many Mastodon users who have joined during the big migration in November who are still blissfully unaware that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. You'll first have to tell them that.
Then they'll have to accept it.
Then you'll have to get into their heads that "Fediverse" means that everything connects with everything, and they can interact with Friendica or Lemmy from their Mastodon accounts. It sounds like black magic. I mean, it's the same as following someone on Facebook or Reddit while you're on Twitter yourself.
Also, many of those who joined Mastodon in late 2022 are so happy and giddy about it that they can't for the lives of them imagine that something else in the Fediverse could possibly have any advantage over Mastodon.
I've had someone tell me that everything that isn't Mastodon has to suck because only Mastodon is "feature-complete". I could have replied to him by pitting Mastodon against Hubzilla in... show more
@Christopher As I've said, there are many Mastodon users who have joined during the big migration in November who are still blissfully unaware that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. You'll first have to tell them that.
Then they'll have to accept it.
Then you'll have to get into their heads that "Fediverse" means that everything connects with everything, and they can interact with Friendica or Lemmy from their Mastodon accounts. It sounds like black magic. I mean, it's the same as following someone on Facebook or Reddit while you're on Twitter yourself.
Also, many of those who joined Mastodon in late 2022 are so happy and giddy about it that they can't for the lives of them imagine that something else in the Fediverse could possibly have any advantage over Mastodon.
I've had someone tell me that everything that isn't Mastodon has to suck because only Mastodon is "feature-complete". I could have replied to him by pitting Mastodon against Hubzilla in features and listing up dozens of features that Hubzilla has that Mastodon doesn't while also stating that there's almost nothing that Mastodon has that Hubzilla doesn't. But I didn't.
Also, I think that whoever invented Guppe knew neither Lemmy nor Friendica nor Hubzilla at that point nor any of the other "Reddit clone" endeavours that were pretty much stillborn (Lotide, anyone?).
This is why it's dangerous to build "Fediverse projects" when you still think the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Yeah, that's why I said that telling them hasn't been a super effective strategy. I've been blue in the face for five months now excitedly informing users that things they want are right there, if they just take a step in that direction.
It's clearly not how people want to come to the information. They don't need to be told or shown from strangers they encounter in a new land. They need to find it through some other channels.
@jupiter_rowland OK so you’re talking with one of the batshit crazy types (also, see straw man argument). Still comes down to as a mastodon user (this hat) I can interact with the forum using my current tools. If I discover that I want different features, I can move to a different hat. Most users don’t care about the back end plumbing, and the technical argument that “this is better” doesn’t fly. What’s easy to use for *me*? Upsell for stuff I don’t know if I need fails.
@Bruce G_NS To you, it doesn't matter. I've understood that long ago.
Still, there are people who go completely and utterly stark raving bat-shit insane over there being something else in their nice and cosy Fediverse than nice and cosy Mastodon.
Luckily, you are none of these people. Also, you know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. And you acknowledge that.
Re-inventing the federated wheel because you don't know that wheels exist
I keep seeing lots of people who are totally giddy about the #Fediverse, who are gushing over it, who want to promote it, who want it to spread.
And who want it to advance. To learn new abilities. To grow new features.
That's all fine and dandy.
But almost all of these people are still fully convinced that the Fediverse equals #Mastodon. And nothing else. At least not until Tumblr and P92 join the fray. Okay, maybe the #WordPress plug-in that's the talk of the town now that it has become official. Okay, maybe a few of them have also heard of #Pixelfed and/or #PeerTube because their makers are all over the Fediverse.
When these people are talking about the Fediverse, they mean Mastodon. And when they're thinking about the Fediverse, they're only thinking about Mastodon. Because that's all they know.
So these people want new cool features or even new cool use-cases in the Fediverse, stuff that Mastodon doesn't have. They want Mastodon to have it, or they want new projects to be launched that have these features.
If only they knew.
If only they knew that everything, literally everything they propose has already been done. Yes, in the Fediverse. In projects which are fully federated with Mastodon. Why don't they know? Because they've never heard of any of these projects, much less what they can do.
So they want "quote-tweets" in the Fediverse. Which means they want Mastodon to introduce them.
Tell you what: Mastodon is the only microblogging project in the Fediverse that doesn't have quotes. Not only will Eugen Rochko never introduce them, but all the other projects have them with Mastodon forks #GlitchSoc such as being the exception. #Pleroma has them. #Akkoma has them. #MissKey has them. #CalcKey has them. #FoundKey has them. #GoToSocial has them. The old heavyweights #Friendica and #Hubzilla have them, and so does Hubzilla's youngest decendant, the #Streams project. Et cetera.
You want "quote-tweets"? Switch to something that isn't Mastodon, and you've got "quote-tweets".
Or text formatting in posts like bold type, italics, underline, strikethrough, code blocks etc. Would be great if Mastodon had that, in spite of other people saying they don't want it.
Again: Pleroma already has it. Akkoma already has it. MissKey already has it. CalcKey already has it. FoundKey already hasit. GoToSocial already has it. Friendica already has it. Hubzilla already has it (look at this post at its source in a Web browser and weep). (streams) already has it. And so forth. This time, even Mastodon forks have it.
It has been done. It has been done many times. It has actually been done before Mastodon.
Next, long-form blog posting. We need something like #Medium in the Fediverse that isn't Medium itself. Mastodon's 500 characters are too few, and Twitter-like threads are inconvenient.
Except we already have that, too. #Plume and #WriteFreely are about as close to Medium as Mastodon is to Twitter, including clean and distraction-less layouts. Oh, and Hubzilla can do that, too.
By the way: Again, Mastodon is the only Fediverse project that can do microblogging that has a 500-character limit. Pleroma, Mastodon's oldest direct competitor, raised it to a default of 6,000. MissKey and its forks have 3,000 as a default. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have character limits of "go ahead, drop your short story in one post in its entirety," so virtually none at all. And yes, Hubzilla has long-form writing on top of that.
Speaking of Hubzilla: Most recently, there has been the idea to uncouple one's online identity from a specific instance. Your online self should no longer be firmly tied to any one server exclusively. Now, this sounds so ambitious, it might just as well be science-fiction.
What if I told you that just this very thing already exists as well?
No, really. No, I'm not making this up. But you should know by now that I'm not.
Better yet: It was conceived as early as 2011. By the guy who launched Friendica in 2010. He invented a new principle named #NomadicIdentity and a new protocol named #Zot. In its early stages already, even with no technical implementation yet, Zot was more powerful than ActivityPub is today.
In 2012, Zot became reality as the basis of a Friendica fork which later became known as #RedMatrix and, upon its 1.0 stable release in late 2015, which is still prior to Mastodon's initial release, Hubzilla. Hubzilla is still being developed and improved, and it has a fledgling but growing "successor of a successor" named (streams) which offers nomadic identity, too.
Now, what does this nomadic identity even look like? Well, not only does it let you move your channel(s) around from instance to instance with ease and, unlike on Mastodon, with absolutely everything on it. No, it also lets you have your channel on multiple instances at once. Identical clones, automagically kept in sync in real-time, all with the same identity, the same content, the same connections.
Your identity is no longer strapped down to one instance. Not only that, but your channel, your posts, your content is no longer hosted on only one server. This means that if one instance with one of your clones goes down, you still have spares.
Okay, so how about community groups/forums? That'd be cool.
Well, for one, there's #Guppe. It's basically bolted on Mastodon, and in practice, it's centralised because there's only one instance. But it's impractical to use.
Besides, this is becoming a running gag here, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have exactly this built-in and open for the rest of the Fediverse.
Better yet: There's also #Lemmy which amounts to a federated #Reddit or #HackerNews clone. So not only does Lemmy offer this, it specialises in it.
Hubzilla alone can provide Fediverse feature suggestions with "has been done" for years to come. Not to mention what elsethe Fediverse has to offer. Even if someone should want a free, non-commercial, decentralised, federated #GoodReads clone in the Fediverse, it has been done: #BookWyrm.
Let's make social media free, federated and fun! Fediverse.Party is your guide into the world of decentralized, autonomous networks running on free open software on a myriad of servers across the world. No ads and no algorithms.
@Bruce G_NS, @Jupiter Rowland, the fact that some tools are objectively ""better"" than others only makes a difference to the user who wants that betteryness. The best thing about the Fediverse is that choice we all have to use the interface that suits our needs, be it an interface that already exists or one that has yet to be realized.
The part of this that's a problem is when new folks join Mastadon, find the interface doesn't work for them, and when they ask for assistance or clarification, they're told "that's just the way it is" instead of "here's a few other ways you could enjoy the Fediverse". Simply because the person they asked only knows the word Mastadon and has no idea what a fediverse is. The root of it all is the Fediverse being advertised as Mastadon instead of Mastadon being advertised as a way to interact with people in the Fediverse.
@kichae@kitchenparty.online, @Jupiter Rowland, where the people are is the #fediverse, not #Mastadon. Yes, the mass of fediverse users may be using Mastadon but the entire point of it speaking #ActivityPub is interoperability with other AP things. Thereby making #Friendica's forums, or #Lemmy's forums/threads(?), or #rss feeds, or #PeerTube channels or #Pixelfed albums(?), or #Funkwhale stations(?), or #Guppe groups, or whatever else, all easily accessible to everyone in the fediverse if people are simply given the proper information from the start.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
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anubis2814
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to anubis2814 • • •I am not sure this is something I know how, or even want to solve myself though.
I know Mastodon is making the sign up process easier by suggesting their main instance as the default one in their official app, but making it easy to pick something else.
For now I'd like to keep this site really simple and let each network work this out on their own.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •anubis2814
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Also asking if they consider themselves free speech absolutists, shunt them over to pluroma.
Doug Bates
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •I love it. I'm not an expert and get lost at times. I wish that had been around when I was struggling to get my head around it.
Thank you. Recommended!
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Stefan Bohacek
Unknown parent • • •Soc-i-eTy
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
CautionWIP 🇨🇦🏳️🌈
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Stefan Bohacek
Unknown parent • • •anubis2814
Unknown parent • • •Alex
Unknown parent • • •Even Maslow's hierarchy of needs prioritizes physiological. Obviously that doesn't exist in the digital space, but it absolutely does matter where you 'call home'.
I feel comfortable exploring and standing in the Fediverse because my portal admin is engaged in protecting me from those who wish me harm.
@anubis2814 @atomicpoet @stefan
Jupiter Rowland
Unknown parent • • •The preferred device and platform could be asked (Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, stock Android, de-Googled Android...), then whether you need a dedicated app, or if you can/intend to use a browser. If you only ever use an iPhone, and you absolutely need a dedicated app, then everything is out that can't be used through an iOS app.
Text formatting?
( ) Yes → Mastodon is out
( ) No → only Mastodon + forks without Mark... show more
The preferred device and platform could be asked (Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, stock Android, de-Googled Android...), then whether you need a dedicated app, or if you can/intend to use a browser. If you only ever use an iPhone, and you absolutely need a dedicated app, then everything is out that can't be used through an iOS app.
Text formatting?
( ) Yes → Mastodon is out
( ) No → only Mastodon + forks without Markdown
( ) Don't care → no influence
Similar with quotes. Similar with maximum length for your own posts.
Like Japanese culture/anime/manga?
( ) No → MissKey as a whole is out; same goes for instances with an otaku/weeaboo focus elsewhere
And so forth.
Maybe there could be a question if you may be interested in an instance for people in your town/city/area, but only if not all projects that have local/regional instances are already out. The questions where you live would only go on for as long as it still makes sense. If you've already ruled Mastodon out, and all local/regional instances on your continent are on Mastodon, then there won't be a question in which country you live, etc.
In fact, the first question should be what you want to replace in the first place. It isn't always Twitter, so the solution can't always be Mastodon.
Lilyshome
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
anubis2814
Unknown parent • • •anubis2814
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •anubis2814
in reply to anubis2814 • • •Chris Trottier
Unknown parent • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Potung Thul
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •I'm just responding to a need to express myself in a manner consistent with my being, so you should probably just ignore the next paragraph.
"ONBOARD" IS NOT A VERB!!!! "ONBOARD" IS NOT EVEN AN ENGLISH WORD!! "ON BOARD" IS A PREPOSITIONAL ADJECTIVE PHRASE THAT DOES NOT TAKE A DIRECT OBJECT!
Okay, all done. We now return to our regular programming.
@stefan @fediversenews
#GrammarNazi
eshep likes this.
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anubis2814
in reply to Potung Thul • • •Kevin Davidson
in reply to Potung Thul • • •You will probably be unhappy if you learnt the etymology of many words that were imported, misheard, butchered, re-engineered with local grammar and set loose to breed more words.
eshep likes this.
Potung Thul
in reply to Kevin Davidson • • •I am unhappy about the unnecessary ambiguity caused by ignoring grammar of the parts of speech. For example, the word hammer can be verb or noun, but if you take the verb, and convert that to a noun, you could mean the action of hammering, or the actual tool the hammer itself. In this case, "on board" as a verb may mean to be on board, or the action of becoming on board. Ambiguity, all because we were too lazy to say "bring on board".
#grammar
@atomicpoet @stefan @fediversenews
eshep likes this.
Kevin Davidson
in reply to Potung Thul • • •Words are made of amorphous goo and fighting it will end in tears.
Potung Thul
in reply to Kevin Davidson • • •You are absolutely right. I protest only because it is my nature to balk against creating even more ambiguity where previously language meant something.
Eventually language will degenerate into a single word that will mean anything of which we happen to be thinking at the moment:
"smurf!"
@atomicpoet @stefan @fediversenews
#English
Kevin Davidson
in reply to Potung Thul • • •Potung Thul
in reply to Kevin Davidson • • •I know it seems hopeless. Still, it's the principle of the thing, not to take the rest way out. That's why I am here and not on the bird site.
@atomicpoet @stefan @fediversenews
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Kevin Davidson
in reply to eshep • • •eshep likes this.
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Potung Thul
in reply to eshep • • •Suffixes help label the part of speech of a word, so I have no problem with getting an invitation, just an invite.
There will always be lazy people in the world, and there will always be a place for those who show how it's supposed to be done.
@MetalSamurai @atomicpoet @stefan @fediversenews
#GrammarNazi
#PartsOfSpeech
eshep likes this.
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Stefan Bohacek
Unknown parent • • •I like the idea, and it would make a lot of sense. Let me give this some more thought.
Kynyc
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Every single service is a new and often weird word, so that’s not plain language.
Example: People care about their Twitter network, which of the five weird names should they choose to replicate Twitter? There’s no indication. Not to mention none are all that similar to Twitter user base, which leads to disappointment.
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Chris Trottier
in reply to Kynyc • • •eshep likes this.
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Kynyc
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Chris Trottier
in reply to Kynyc • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Kynyc
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •This newbie explainer is implying EVERYONE is reachable on the fediverse, that it’s universal like email.
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Chris Trottier
in reply to Kynyc • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
John Abbe (aka Slow)
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Chris Trottier
in reply to John Abbe (aka Slow) • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
John Abbe (aka Slow)
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Any intro to mastodon or fediverse which didn't communicate this would be incomplete, no? (Unless you, say, recommend and assume the community of mastodon.social and similarly-run big servers if you're talking about Mastodon.)
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Chris Trottier
in reply to John Abbe (aka Slow) • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Kynyc
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •You state:
in easy-to-understand words -- what the Fediverse is, how it works, and what to try.
All the names are gibberish and also there’s a ton of them. What to try, well sure there’s not differentiating between them and also what you try will not be similar in experience, but this is obscured.
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John Abbe (aka Slow)
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Mastodon fixes “confusing” sign-up process to attract users fleeing Twitter
Ars TechnicaFediverse News reshared this.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to John Abbe (aka Slow) • • •@slowenough @kynyc
Have you seen this #Fediverse introduction site?
https://mastodon.social/@atomicpoet/110279826995875929
Chris Trottier
2023-04-29 02:50:17
John Abbe (aka Slow)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •Kynyc
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Kynyc • • •Yes, these are not meant to be exact copies of each service, rather a few suggestions for comparable user experience.
I'm also linking to sites that help you pick based on other criteria, and I'm happy to add more, if you have any suggestions.
dragfyre
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to anubis2814 • • •Either only Mastodon instances will be suggested because "Mastodon is the standard"/"Mastodon is the default"/"The Fediverse is Mastodon"/whatever, maybe actually because whoever designs something like this doesn't know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon.
Or you get some more or less hidden setting that allows you to choose an instance of another project. If you don't, you only get Mastodon. Result: still 99.99% Mastodon instances being chosen.
What should actu... show more
Either only Mastodon instances will be suggested because "Mastodon is the standard"/"Mastodon is the default"/"The Fediverse is Mastodon"/whatever, maybe actually because whoever designs something like this doesn't know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon.
Or you get some more or less hidden setting that allows you to choose an instance of another project. If you don't, you only get Mastodon. Result: still 99.99% Mastodon instances being chosen.
What should actually happen is all projects being treated equally, at least all with the same purpose. If there's an Akkoma instance or a CalcKey instance that fits you, then it should be suggested. And if someone demands quotes or text formatting, then they shouldn't get Mastodon slammed into their faces over and over and over again as if there was nothing else.
Or if someone is looking for a replacement for Facebook or Instagram, they shouldn't only get Mastodon instances to pick. The Instagram replacement in the Fediverse is Pixelfed. And the number one Facebook replacement is Friendica, and it has been that since 2010.
Paul Schoe
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •It is an amazingly attractive quick introduction to the Fediverse and it guides people to open Fediverse alternatives for the closed platforms that they are currently used to.
Join the fediverse!
jointhefediverse.netFediverse News reshared this.
Ahri Boy 💙💛🏳️⚧️
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •Paul Schoe
in reply to Ahri Boy 💙💛🏳️⚧️ • • •I can't find a link to Foundkey on either Mastodon search or on Google.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •@Paul Schoe @Fediverse News
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •"Mobilizon is an event planner with groups support and one of the Fediverse's replacements for Facebook events & groups."
So if you use Facebook just for this particular feature, it sounds like it's worth checking out?
https://www.searchenginejournal.com/1-8-billion-people-use-facebook-groups-every-month/397109/
1.8 Billion People Use Facebook Groups Every Month
Matt G. Southern (Search Engine Journal)Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Occupy Journey 🐧🇺🇲♒🌎
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •How many people remember the 90's? Back before corporate controll? I do and I remember being able connect a jabber server to a Yahoo chat service to a Google chat service to facebook chat to twitter ....
Before corporations decide to rule the world...
Mastodon is what the internet once was 🤣
otso
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •this may be more correct: sites that ban and block instead of competing
Alexander K.
Unknown parent • • •I don't have a specific favorite, I'm just curious what people think most new users would pick if they had to pick on features alone.
Like in my case, I like Mastodon, but I'm really open to trying anything at this point.
Paul Schoe
in reply to Alexander K. • • •Unfortunately, I do not believe that people chose on features.
People choose on 3 items:
1) Hype
2) Recommendations.
3) Ease of signing up
Based on hype, I expect that BlueSky will get the largest initial growth. That despite the fact that Jack Dorsey has even said that he likes to replace 'likes' by financial endorsements (mini payments), which he calls: real commitment. This clearly shows what a wolf in sheep's clothes BlueSky is.
Alexander K.
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •I just meant in your opinion if people did actually put features first, what would be your top choices?
Paul Schoe
in reply to Alexander K. • • •2/2
Based on Ease of signing up, Mastodon comes clearly behind those centralised solutions even though decentralised is what I think people really want.
That means that I put my faith in recommendations. Unfortunately, most of these only occur once people have been burned by choosing based n Hype or on Ease of signing up.
Alexander K.
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •I think it ultimately comes back to what's been said before, the reason Twitter and such are so popular is the plug and play nature of it.
One signs up and they can follow their friends and in cases like Twitter, celebrities and whatnot. Until that's easier anywhere else, I see Bluesky being the most popular.
Jesus Cova
in reply to Alexander K. • • •I believe that in order to improve the onboarding UX, fediverse apps should not be more complicated than Bluesky. We need to empathize more at the app client level and prioritize safe defaults for new users to learn the ropes with the app, even if it means risking the preferences of long-time users
mnemonicoverload
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •I think that says a lot about how Dorsey sees the platform (and how he saw Twitter): A place where celebrities / influencers provide content to consumers, not a network of peers. He's not building a social network, he's building a parasocial network.
@Occupy Journey 🐧🇺🇲♒🌎 @Alexander K. @m@thias.hellqui.st @Chris Trottier @Stefan Bohacek @Fediverse News
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Alexander K.
in reply to mnemonicoverload • • •Paul Schoe
in reply to Jesus Cova • • •It is not that difficult to streamline the onboarding process of the Fediverse.
Making one central port of access while allowing individual instances to participate in that or not (many won't, and that is no problem).
But this requires an investment at the top and at this moment, the funding for that is simply not available.
To get it done, crowdfunding is required as there is no clear path to ROI for commercial investors.
Alexander K.
in reply to Jesus Cova • • •Alexander K.
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •Jesus Cova
in reply to Alexander K. • • •Bruce G_NS
in reply to Alexander K. • • •I think the level of perceived complexity is part of it - both my spouse and I are tech types. I found it fairly easy to get up and running in about 10 minutes - one of the local Twitter folk posted he was starting up a server, and the address. Easy to sign up for me, and when that was shutting down, migration was relatively easy. My spouse, not so much. The fact it took a checklist to do the migration for me was a major obstacle for her. Not intuitive
Occupy Journey 🐧🇺🇲♒🌎
in reply to Jesus Cova • • •Jesus Cova
in reply to Occupy Journey 🐧🇺🇲♒🌎 • • •However, there are talks of having a bridge between AT proto and ActivityPub. So, lets say the influencers go to Bluesky and a meaningful fraction of my friends too. We could have an app that fetches those posts and add them into your feed
https://calckey.social/users/9aqhkybllt
Unknown parent • • •So when you give new users the option to choose between the main server software options, but then also include 3rd party app support in the list, I do think people would choose Mastodon. If we compare vanilla server software, Mastodon would be last on my list. But once we factor in things like @phanpy@hachyderm.io it becomes a nobrainer option for Mastodon again for me. Not because of Mastodon, but because Phanpy is simply that good.
And yeah, I'm very much waiting until Phanpy supports other services (or the services implement masto API fully), because that'll be a real gamechanger imo.
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Blake Leonard
Unknown parent • • •Blake Leonard
Unknown parent • • •also I'm pretty sure my handle having "calckey.social" gives away that I'm using calckey 😆
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https://calckey.social/users/9ch6n4m2kn
in reply to mnemonicoverload • • •@mnemonicoverload@libranet.de@paulschoe@mastodon.world@mahaska@kolektiva.social@Alexx9811@mastodon.social@m@thias.hellqui.st@atomicpoet@mastodon.social@stefan@stefanbohacek.online@fediversenews@venera.social
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eshep
in reply to Chris Trottier • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Alexander K.
Unknown parent • • •I am naturally curious about tech, but often my reach exceeds my grasp in terms of understanding everything. I feel like I know more than a casual social media user, but I'm definitely not as well versed as many people on here who really get this stuff at a level I don't.
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Alexander K.
in reply to • • •One largely disseminates information from whichever person happens to have a microphone at any given moment in time to people who absorb and react to information, whereas the other is people trading or sharing information amongst themselves as a peer group.
https://calckey.social/users/9ch6n4m2kn
in reply to Alexander K. • • •However, a network is typically multi-directional... There maybe nodes or branches in the pathway, but even the lowest leaf can communicate with along any path of the tree efficiently.
There are quite a few analegies that can be used for thiese types of structures.
@Alexx9811@mastodon.social@atomicpoet@mastodon.social@stefan@stefanbohacek.online@m@thias.hellqui.st@mahaska@kolektiva.social@paulschoe@mastodon.world@mnemonicoverload@libranet.de@fediversenews@venera.social
Kevin Davidson
Unknown parent • • •I’ve got CalcKey/Kimis, Friendica/Relatica and Mastodon/Ice Cubes
So far the Mastodon/Ice Cubes combo is the fastest and most generally useful, but I’m annoyed I’m missing out on long posts when I want them, and not seeing/sending emoji reactions.
Kevin Davidson
Unknown parent • • •I was using Mona with Friendica, but it was a bit odd. I’m hoping Relatica will more closely match the native UI.
Trenton Matthews
Unknown parent • • •And #Mastodon isn’t meant for communities, it’s for posting.
How do ya get more people to embrace #Fediverse community platforms such as #Friendica and #Hubzilla?
great eepe :flag:
Unknown parent • • •eris
Unknown parent • • •:twiz:
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •I think this is a big mistake. What made FB and Twitter and Youtube cool once upon a time was that they didnt run on advertisements or charge anything.
Once they started doing that, things went downhill. I feel like this is going to turn individuals into advertisers.
Im trying to be very vocal about my opinion on this. But I dont want to come off as rude. So forgive anything that might sound harsh.
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Kevin Davidson
Unknown parent • • •Also, turns out bikeshed.party is blocked by my Mastodon instance, but I realised I was missing some replies.
Kevin Davidson
Unknown parent • • •eris
in reply to :twiz: • • •eris
in reply to eris • • •:twiz:
in reply to eris • • •I think that has proven to be unhealthy. IMO
Skyler
in reply to :twiz: • • •anubis2814 likes this.
eris
in reply to :twiz: • • •Idrc as long as there are options that don’t suck. It seems like there will probably always be instances somewhere that keep a classical, chronological feed, just because a lot of people hate algorithms.
:twiz:
in reply to Skyler • • •That lie is perpetuated by the algorithm people just trying to get you to buy more algorithm.
anubis2814 likes this.
:twiz:
in reply to eris • • •I personally will probably continue to not trust computers to tell me what I should focus on.
I am willing to be persuaded differently but almost every algorithm Ive used has been one that I wished I didnt have to use.
eris
in reply to :twiz: • • •What is useful are the posts it promotes from people your follows follow, and important posts from people you follow. It’s much easier to find new people through that than it is on sites without it.
:twiz:
in reply to eris • • •You might persuade me to try something like that but it would be a pretty hard bargain. I think hashtags, instances built on topics, and search queries are doing
Nice to meet you btw.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Trenton Matthews • • •Stop making Mastodon or even mastodon.social the frontpage of the Fediverse.
Have people know how big the Fediverse is. Have them know that there's more in the Fediverse than Mastodon, and I mean right away. Don't let them spend half a year on their huge instances in the belief that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
The longer they live with the mindset there's nothing else out there, the more they'll see all the other Fediverse projects as shoddy knock-offs of their beloved Mastodon. Or competition. Or intruders into their nice and cosy "Mastodon network" which isn't even an enclosed network.
This should also concern tech media and mass media. They have to stop talking about Mastodon as an enclose... show more
Stop making Mastodon or even mastodon.social the frontpage of the Fediverse.
Have people know how big the Fediverse is. Have them know that there's more in the Fediverse than Mastodon, and I mean right away. Don't let them spend half a year on their huge instances in the belief that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
The longer they live with the mindset there's nothing else out there, the more they'll see all the other Fediverse projects as shoddy knock-offs of their beloved Mastodon. Or competition. Or intruders into their nice and cosy "Mastodon network" which isn't even an enclosed network.
This should also concern tech media and mass media. They have to stop talking about Mastodon as an enclosed network or even a monolithic, centralised website. They, too, have to treat Mastodon and everything else in the Fediverse the same.
The phenomenon is not Mastodon. The phenomenon is the Fediverse.
Oh, and I can name three active Fediverse projects that are older than Mastodon. So Mastodon wasn't the first either.
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eshep
in reply to Trenton Matthews • •Guppe Groups
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Jupiter Rowland
in reply to eshep • • •Group discoverability on Guppe is hit-and-miss. It depends on how popular your group is, for Guppe only lists 50 groups whereas Friendica lists all of its forums.
Friendica Directory
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eshep
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • •If only there were a way for folks to see what features exist on each platform before committing to one. Simply telling folks this≈that helps but just isn't quite enough. Nor does the "just join here cause it's what I use"' approach.
And hacky as it may be, I'm happy to see folks wanting a bit stricter conversation control have found a way to do so across the fediverse. It helps those looking for a more intimate atmosphere to find a home here.
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Jupiter Rowland
in reply to eshep • • •But in order to use Friendica, you need to know it exists.
Almost all newcomers to the Fediverse spend their first three to six months "knowing" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Then they start discovering stuff that's bolted onto Mastodon. Like Guppe.
Then they start discovering stuff that's actively being advertised on Mastodon by its creators with thousands upon thousands of boosts. This only applies to Pixelfed and maybe PeerTube. Still, to them, Mastodon is the only one of its kind.
Even later, they may stumble upon other ActivityPub-based microblogging projects. Not even all of them yet. If their worldview wasn't shattered in the previous paragraph, it is now.
And unless this happens through one of my posts, chances are it'll take them even longer to discover projects that a)... show more
But in order to use Friendica, you need to know it exists.
Almost all newcomers to the Fediverse spend their first three to six months "knowing" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Then they start discovering stuff that's bolted onto Mastodon. Like Guppe.
Then they start discovering stuff that's actively being advertised on Mastodon by its creators with thousands upon thousands of boosts. This only applies to Pixelfed and maybe PeerTube. Still, to them, Mastodon is the only one of its kind.
Even later, they may stumble upon other ActivityPub-based microblogging projects. Not even all of them yet. If their worldview wasn't shattered in the previous paragraph, it is now.
And unless this happens through one of my posts, chances are it'll take them even longer to discover projects that a) go beyond microblogging, b) aren't based on ActivityPub while still speaking it and c) were even created before Mastodon. All three apply to Friendica. Seriously, I wouldn't wonder if many of those who have added @Fediverse News think it's on Mastodon.
Reactions upon the discovery of the Fediverse beyond Mastodon vary, especially if they come with being told that the Fediverse is not just Mastodon plus shoddy Mastodon knock-offs, but there's stuff in the Fediverse that's better at what Mastodon does than Mastodon itself. Some people react with disbelief, some react with out-right denial, and some react the Krikkit way and want everything that isn't Mastodon to be shut down or at least excluded from the Fediverse.
You've already written it: Guppe was created as a Mastodon add-on. Friendica is six years older than Mastodon and out-classes Mastodon in just about everything. Of course, those who have discovered Mastodon to be nice and cosy and perfect don't take the revelation that there's something that's better than Mastodon kindly, so it's only natural that they prefer Guppe.
Also, Guppe has the "advantage" over Friendica of not requiring another user account, another login, potentially another password to memorise. A killer feature for casual Mastodon users.
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narF 🎲
in reply to Trenton Matthews • • •Friendica has super weird and counterintuitive user onboarding. And I'm a veteran Fediverse user. I would never send a new user there.
I never tried Hubzilla though. Maybe I should.
eshep
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • •Fediverse News reshared this.
Bruce G_NS
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Bruce G_NS • • •It's those who are fully convinced that the Fediverse is only Mastodon and who may go haywire when you tell them that they are already using a non-Mastodon Fediverse project by being connected to Fediverse News.
Anders Rytter Hansen
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Anders Rytter Hansen • • •Anders Rytter Hansen likes this.
https://kitchenparty.online/users/01GNMTYTSFMTM7SXADPT4MEAFP
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •And telling the people that those features they're looking for exist over there hasn't been a super effective strategy.
Bruce G_NS
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Bruce G_NS • • •@Bruce G_NS Okay, let me explain it to you with a fictional dialogue between me and a Fediverse News subscriber who's convinced that all of the Fediverse is Mastodon.
Them: >implying that Mastodon is the Fediverse
Me: #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse.
Them: What do you mean?
Me: You're literally using something that isn't Mastodon, but in the Fediverse. Fediverse News is on Friendica.
Them: But Friendica is a Mastodon server.
Me: No, it isn't.
Them: But it has to be. How else can I possibly use it if it isn't on Mastodon?
Me: Because Mastodon and Friendica speak a common language, ActivityPub. Still, Friendica is an absolutely unrelated project. Face it, there's more in the Fediverse than just Mastodon.
Them: WTF? Then Friendica is a group add-o
... show more@Bruce G_NS Okay, let me explain it to you with a fictional dialogue between me and a Fediverse News subscriber who's convinced that all of the Fediverse is Mastodon.
Them: >implying that Mastodon is the Fediverse
Me: #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse.
Them: What do you mean?
Me: You're literally using something that isn't Mastodon, but in the Fediverse. Fediverse News is on Friendica.
Them: But Friendica is a Mastodon server.
Me: No, it isn't.
Them: But it has to be. How else can I possibly use it if it isn't on Mastodon?
Me: Because Mastodon and Friendica speak a common language, ActivityPub. Still, Friendica is an absolutely unrelated project. Face it, there's more in the Fediverse than just Mastodon.
Them: WTF? Then Friendica is a group add-on for Mastodon?
Me: No, Friendica has got literally nothing to do with Mastodon. It's wholly independent. Actually, it can do everything that Mastodon can do.
Them: So it's some shoddy Mastodon knock-off that can do forums?
Me: No. Friendica can do all that Mastodon can do without Mastodon, it can do it better than Mastodon, and it can do even more on top that Mastodon can't do.
Them: Lies. Why are you fucking lying to me?
Me: Oh, and Friendica is older than Mastodon. Mastodon is from 2016, Friendica is from 2010. When Mastodon was launched, Friendica had been around for a whopping six years already.
Them: Like. What. The. Ever-loving. FUCK?!?!?! Stop bullshitting me! Friendica is nothing but a fucking Mastodon clone, and all that's good about it is the forums, and I don't want anything else than that!
Me: I'm not bullshitting you. If I am, then so is Wikipedia. Release date: July 1st, 2010. That's a fact. Deal with it.
Them: So... there's... like two Mastodons, and they're both in the Fediverse? WTF?
Me: There are many projects in the Fediverse that are like Mastodon but with more features. Pleroma, Akkoma, MissKey, CalcKey, FoundKey... There are many other projects that aren't like Mastodon. Friendica is more like Facebook. I'm on Hubzilla which is even more powerful than Friendica and still older than Mastodon. And they can all communicate with Mastodon.
Them: What... WTF... NOOOOO I DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT I WANT MY FEDIVERSE TO BE ONLY MASTODON AND NICE AND COZY AND CUDDLY AND I DON'T WANT NOTHING ELSE IN MY BELOVED FEDIVERSE MAKE IT GO AWAY I WANT MY MASTODON-ONLY FEDIVERSE BACK NOOOOOOOO THIS IS TOO MUCH SOMEONE PLEASE FEDIBLOCK EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T MASTODON
End of demonstration.
I'm not even kidding, I've read a story about someone from the "Fediverse = Mastodon" crowd who actually blocked a Friendica user for telling them that the Fediverse is not just Mastodon and for allegedly "intruding" into their timeline with some black hacking magic or something.
Some people don't want there to be anything else in the Fediverse than Mastodon.
Jupiter Rowland
2023-03-18 10:55:13
free software for distributed social networks
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Jupiter Rowland
in reply to • • •Then they'll have to accept it.
Then you'll have to get into their heads that "Fediverse" means that everything connects with everything, and they can interact with Friendica or Lemmy from their Mastodon accounts. It sounds like black magic. I mean, it's the same as following someone on Facebook or Reddit while you're on Twitter yourself.
Also, many of those who joined Mastodon in late 2022 are so happy and giddy about it that they can't for the lives of them imagine that something else in the Fediverse could possibly have any advantage over Mastodon.
I've had someone tell me that everything that isn't Mastodon has to suck because only Mastodon is "feature-complete". I could have replied to him by pitting Mastodon against Hubzilla in... show more
Then they'll have to accept it.
Then you'll have to get into their heads that "Fediverse" means that everything connects with everything, and they can interact with Friendica or Lemmy from their Mastodon accounts. It sounds like black magic. I mean, it's the same as following someone on Facebook or Reddit while you're on Twitter yourself.
Also, many of those who joined Mastodon in late 2022 are so happy and giddy about it that they can't for the lives of them imagine that something else in the Fediverse could possibly have any advantage over Mastodon.
I've had someone tell me that everything that isn't Mastodon has to suck because only Mastodon is "feature-complete". I could have replied to him by pitting Mastodon against Hubzilla in features and listing up dozens of features that Hubzilla has that Mastodon doesn't while also stating that there's almost nothing that Mastodon has that Hubzilla doesn't. But I didn't.
Also, I think that whoever invented Guppe knew neither Lemmy nor Friendica nor Hubzilla at that point nor any of the other "Reddit clone" endeavours that were pretty much stillborn (Lotide, anyone?).
This is why it's dangerous to build "Fediverse projects" when you still think the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
https://kitchenparty.online/users/01GNMTYTSFMTM7SXADPT4MEAFP
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •It's clearly not how people want to come to the information. They don't need to be told or shown from strangers they encounter in a new land. They need to find it through some other channels.
Bruce G_NS
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •eshep likes this.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Bruce G_NS • • •Still, there are people who go completely and utterly stark raving bat-shit insane over there being something else in their nice and cosy Fediverse than nice and cosy Mastodon.
Luckily, you are none of these people. Also, you know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. And you acknowledge that.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to • • •@Christopher I guess my channel has accidentally become one of them. Especially this post. Count the likes. Not bad for Hubzilla.
Jupiter Rowland
2023-03-15 17:30:41
@Christopher I guess my channel has accidentally become one of them. Especially this post. Count the likes. Not bad for Hubzilla.
Jupiter Rowland
2023-03-15 17:30:41
eshep
in reply to Bruce G_NS • •The part of this that's a problem is when new folks join Mastadon, find the interface doesn't work for them, and when they ask for assistance or clarification, they're told "that's just the way it is" instead of "here's a few other ways you could enjoy the Fediverse". Simply because the person they asked only knows the word Mastadon and has no idea what a fediverse is. The root of it all is the Fediverse being advertised as Mastadon instead of Mastadon being advertised as a way to interact with people in the Fediverse.
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