We strongly oppose the Unified Attestation initiative and call for app developers supporting privacy, security and freedom on mobile to avoid it. Companies selling phones should not be deciding which operating systems people are allowed to use for apps.
Unified Attestation is a free, open-source alternative to Google Play Integrity with offline verification and simple app + server integration.uattest.net
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De VVD is een extreemrechtse partij.
Dat wist je natuurlijk al, zeker sinds ze een fascistische FvD motie steunden die antifascisme een vorm van "terrorisme" noemde.
Maar ze zijn zojuist wéér een stukje verder opgeschoven, weg van "fatsoenlijk" rechts. Ze voeren nu samen met neonazi's actief campagne tegen een AZC in De Bilt.
Waar overigens 15 jaar geleden een fijn AZC was, waar ook bij werd geprotesteerd door inwoners van de gemeente: namelijk toen het dicht ging. De omwonenden wilden het toen OPEN houden.
Maar de lokale VVD (die zich trouwens groen noemt omdat ze in haar verkiezingsprogramma heeft staan dat ze tegen windmolens is 😵💫 ), is nu fel tégen een AZC.
Dat nieuwe AZC komt misschien op het terrein van Berg & Bosch, een groen bedrijventerrein voor allerlei organisaties uit de sectoren zorg, gezondheid en sociaal-maatschappelijke dienstverlening. Er is genoeg plek over. Of het er echt komt, en in welke vorm, is nog totaal onduidelijk: de besluitvorming is pas net begonnen.
De VVD en een paar stinkend rijke omwonenden beweren dat de bezoekers, omwonenden en asielzoekers zelf onveilig zouden zijn als er een asielzoekerscentrum komt, omdat er "te weinig straatlantarens" zouden zijn, en omdat er "geen lantarens bijgeplaatst" zouden mogen worden vanwege "het groen".
Dit is allicht volkomen bullshit. Het is nog niet eens bekend óf en waar op het terrein een AZC komt of in welke vorm, laat staan dat iemand iets weet over het aantal lampjes.
Ook wat betreft de veiligheidsgevoelens van de "kwetsbare bezoekers" van de zorgbedrijven op het terrein: daar ben ik er heel toevallig zelf eentje van. Het terrein is helemaal niet donker. En al was het dat wel: ik voel me er sowieso helemaal niet onveilig, maar als er naast witte mensen in zorginstellingen ook asielzoekers zouden wonen, voel ik me alleen maar nóg veiliger.
Een paar racistische omwonenden hebben "een professioneel onderzoeksbureau" ingehuurd "wat vaak voor de overheid werkt", om hun mening in een veiligheidsrapportje te laten verwoorden. Het gaat om het bedrijf Triangular Group Insights. Aan de website van de lokale VVD is duidelijk te zien dat zij flink hebben meegedacht, als ze niet al gewoon hoofdopdrachtgever zijn.
Dit "onderzoeksbureau" heeft voor haar rapport geen enkele keer contact gezocht met het COA, en heeft dus ook geen idee wat de plannen überhaupt zijn. Wel zocht ze voor de vorm contact met de gemeente.
RTV Utrecht:
"Een woordvoerder van de gemeente laat weten dat het bureau pas vorige week vrijdag wethouder Smolenaers benaderde. Die gaf aan het verzoek maandag 2 maart te bespreken met collega's. Op die dag nam hij contact op met het TGI om te vragen of zij het verzoek op papier wilden zetten. Een dag later ontving de wethouder dat verzoek. Daarbij werd ook gevraagd of Smolenaers gisteren of vandaag tijd had voor een afspraak om input te geven voor het onderzoek.
Vervolgens kreeg de gemeente te horen dat het onderzoek gisteren gepubliceerd zou worden. De Bilt vroeg nog om uitstel, maar kreeg als antwoord dat de opdrachtgever hier niet voor openstond. "Daarmee is input geven door de gemeente onmogelijk gemaakt.""
Dat was dus altijd al de bedoeling.
De VVD spint heel handig steeds die woorden "professioneel onderzoeksbureau, werkzaam voor oa overheden".
Ik dacht, ik zoek dat "Triangular Group Insights" (TGI) eens op.
Hier een screenshot van dat zogenaamde professionele onderzoeksbureau (wat niets loslaat over klanten, en wat super vaag is over opdrachten: ze zouden iets in Oekraïne doen, met commando's werken en in het buitenland 'een hoofddader van een miljoenendiefstal' hebben opgespoord, zonder zelfs maar te vertellen over welke diefstal dat dan zou gaan. Wel vragen ze ex-commando's, ontslagen politieagenten en, jawel, ex-spionnen om te solliciteren.)
Dit zijn huurlingen.
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O, ze doen ook aan ondermijning, zie ik. Wellicht verklaart dat hoe de plaatselijke VVD ze kent.
Los daarvan: als ik op hun website lees «Met klantgerichte inlichtingen en specialistische diensten helpen wij organisaties bij het bestrijden van (wereldwijde) dreigingen en veiligheidsuitdagingen.», dan is dit niet een club die je inhuurt voor een neutraal oordeel. Deze zet je in als je een probleem hébt. Je vooronderstelt dus dat het AZC een veiligheidsrisico is.
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The online advertising industry has built a massive surveillance machine, and the government can co-opt it to spy on us.Electronic Frontier Foundation
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Worth repeating.
The Iranian warship that was sunk by a torpedo was returning from a joint exercise the U.S. pulled out of on the last moment.
Per protocol joining ships were unarmed. Ships had no option for defence. The U.S. knew.
The U.S. sank the ship and offered no help to the survivors.
#EU is this what we want to part of? Murder, also on murderers, remains murder.
"So much winning"?
Very truthful communication of former Indian foreign minister Kanwal Sibal.
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The i newspaper has got it:
independent.co.uk/news/world/m…
The sinking ignited a significant debate within India regarding maritime security in the strategically vital Indian OceanSheikh Saaliq (The Independent)
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The question is not whether you can create software using LLMs - you can (most software is just boring CRUD shit).
But you do pay a hefty price: In lowering quality (security issues, less maintainable), in skill decay in the people "guiding" the stochastic parrots, etc.
It's not "can 'AI's create software" but "are we willing to accept worse software running more and more of our lives?"
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+1
> "destroying the ecological, informational or social environment"
As good as this generated code may be, it remains unacceptable because of that. And that should be the ultimate reason (as the code quality may rise, but at the cost of more destruction)
@Nausipoule I'd argue that instead (or, if you'd like: additionally), it is the terminal form of stochastic terrorism:
You will be randomly denied services, participation and dignity. Now isn't that quite a future.
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AI speeds up writing code, but accountability and review capacity still impose hard limits.Armin Ronacher (Armin Ronacher's Thoughts and Writings)
And I cannot even begin to emphasize how much *it will cost about the same despite it being of lower quality*.
Once credit entities realize that GPUs get obsolete very fast and five years down the line the early-mover needs to buy again just as much new processing hardware as a late-comer, they will stop subsidizing today's AI as a gamble to capture the market for tomorrow.
And then your 45-minutes-saving boilerplate machine will cost 5$ per run.
Good take! But also, like "can you create software" is not really an accurate framing of what the hard part of software was.
Most people could "create software" by looking up a Hello world example. That wouldn't help them solve amy real problems tho.
LLMs produce software that *looks more like* it solves problems... but security, integrity, legality were kind of always implied parts of the problem.
Like, it takes a weird subtle reframing of the goal to make LLMs look at all useful.
@343max I think that's kind of the wrong question. Skill degradation and the moral implications (crawling of copyrighted material, climate, etc.) don't go away just because the generated code is good.
But I'm pretty sure you are aware 🙂
Well, well done for admitting that demonstrably, the dog can play the piano. Now we are just talking about how well it plays.
FWIW these LLMs have no need for being consistent with what happened in a previous context. The same LLM, in a new context, will usefully critique and find and fix flaws in what it itself did in the previous context.
The "slop" aspect of LLM output seems to come from just going with what one context produced blind, when it can iterate as, eg, QA manager.
I mean, you can also "build a house" by using deck screws to connect some wet doug fir 2x4s into a "frame" and then staple on some drywall and siding and drape the whole thing in a plastic tarp.
You will die when it falls on you, but for a time, it was a "house".
The best engineers I know just became more ambitious, and so should all of us.
I'll keep repeating this, there's tonnes of proprietary binary blobs in all of our tech. You can shout from the rooftops about how much you love your /e/OS phone, if your phone modem relies on a proprietary driver, it's pretty much worthless as a "resistance against big tech". European digital sovereignty is equally worthless.
LLMs are good at staring at hexdumps, humans aren't. Use their advantage to build actually open tech.
> But you do pay a hefty price: In lowering quality (security issues, less maintainable), in skill decay in the people "guiding" the stochastic parrots, etc.
Skill issue, idk what more to say. I don't find it any different to managing juniors and reviewing their PRs. Bad code is bad code.
I think LLM's are only good at learning programming language's basics or getting yourself interested in some random topic. That's what I do with a local LLM. I do the actual research and learning more than the basics myself.
Idk. I've never liked being spoonfed information anyway and I learn best when my effort of learning pays off. I always liked reading and learning stuff on my own even before LLM's started popping up but idk why people started decided to become really lazy.
I don't believe that to be universally true. I *wish* it was, because it'd be so much easier to argue against them.
Unfortunately, the "mere" fact that all currently existing incarnations are fundamentally evil does not mean they must lead to lower quality software.
A velocity-first mindset has *always* led to lower quality, regardless of GenAI. And they make that rush accessible to everyone, regardless of expertise/skill.
[1/2]
I'm also unsure skill decay is real as such. I also would struggle for a few moments before I could do long division again, or implementing a sorting algorithm.
We get the lower quality not because people use LLMs.
But because they are pressured to ever faster velocity by capitalism/fascism that wants to deregulate everything.
LLMs, used right, can be *useful*.
The problem is they are currently a) evil, b) used badly at scale.
One *can* use them for high quality results. [2/3]
Yes, but is that actually untrue? I know that even Anthropic has shown that people learn less (of what they'd have learned via the traditional method) when completing a task using GenAI, sure.
But are they maybe learning *other* things? Is their use of that tool/method improving, for example? e.g., the Anthropic paper showed that this varied widely for different Usage Patterns.
IDNK. I think it's truly too early to truly understand those mid- to long-term effects.
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@steltenpower Dat is wel degelijk Mathijs Bouman met een petje op voor het hek van het Witte Huis. Maar hij gebruikt zijn Mastodon-account eigenlijk niet.
Hij is wel actief op BlueSky: bsky.app/profile/mathijsbouman…
Das Financieele Dagblad, renommierteste Finanzzeitung der Niederlande, zur Öl- und Gaskrise: "die grünen Spinner haben recht"
"Es waren einfach die grünen Spinner und Nachhaltigkeits-Träumer, die Recht hatten. Wir hätten viel schneller elektrifizieren müssen, mit Sonne, Wind, Wasserstoff und Batterien, exakt wie sie es sagten. Dann wären die Niederlande jetzt weniger verletzlich gewesen."
Der Irankrieg zeigt: Wer wie die Bundesregierung wieder auf Gas und Öl als Energieträger setzt, gefährdet die Zukunft des LandesNils Kreimeier (capital.de)
Voor die groene gekkies moeten we wel heel lang terug.
1974: Eerste witkar-station in Amsterdam - oude filmbeelden - YouTube
youtube.com/watch?v=0gIs-HNA_r…
Witkar - Wikipedia
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witkar
En 20 jaar later (1996):
General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_…
Maar lang voor die gekkies had je al heel serieuze elektrische taxi's.
ik plakte de oervorm er even onder.. 😎
De moderne versie zijn de deel scootertjes en fietsen.
qua 'witkar' was dat eigenlijk slechts een kopie van een eerdere kortstondige successtory.
New York’s Electric Taxis in 1895 - YouTube
youtube.com/watch?v=uUItSK-ez8…
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.Great Big Story (YouTube)
@isisevrinen
Dat is ook een van de dingen die soms lastig zijn.
Dat we nu heel goeie zonnepanelen hebben en uitstekende accu's krijgen is vooral zangen aan de mogelijkheid dat beide losgekoppeld werden en onafhankelijk konden innoveren. (Eerst panelen, gevolgd door accu's)
Saldering maakte die grote versnelling mogelijk.
(T gebrek aan noodzakelijke exit strategie aan het eind maakt dat we nu on 'deze' situatie zitten.. 🙈)
@isisevrinen
Vreselijk... De man had zo ontzettend gelijk!
Maar dit en ook wel een paar andere 'projecten' hebben me zo laten zien dat partijen echt een flinke kwaliteitsslag moeten maken om de steeds complexere problemen aan te kunnen.
Maar ja ... Dat is iets wat de TK voor zichzelf moet regelen. Zij gaan daar zelf over.
Dit is wel wat kort door de bocht. Ja, we hadden minder afhankelijk van fossiele brandstoffen kunnen zijn. Echter, windmolens zijn van staal en de groene gekkies willen ook van Tata Steel af, dus daar hebben we een afhankelijkheid. Zonnepanelen komen vrijwel allemaal uit China. En voor elektrificatie zijn we zwaar van koper afhankelijk. Ook daarvoor zijn we sterk afhankelijk van niet Europese landen.
Dit artikel leest toch meer als opportunisme van de groene gekkies.
@elziax @mathijsbouman Het is heel eenvoudig. De adviezen uit gedegen rapporten aan de overheid zijn bijna altijd uitstekend.
Maar als dat niet in het straatje past van gevestigde belangen komt er een industrielobby op gang die een gewillig oor bij de VVD vindt.
En dan gaat het niet door.
Daarom, stem niet op de VVD maar op iets ter linkerzijde ervan. CDA is een twijfelgeval, maar daar kan je nog met 'rentmeesterschap' argumenten aankloppen.
Geen Europese ICE! Help ons massadeportaties te stoppen.
We bouwen 100.000 stemmen op tegen massadeportaties in Europa. Teken nu. Laten we dit samen stoppen!
Binnen een paar dagen stemt het Europese Parlement over een wet die massadeportaties invoeren. Het is een kopietje van de ellende die we in de VS zien.
Al meer dan 100.000 mensen tekenden deze petitie.
Voeg je stem toe!
action.wemove.eu/sign/2025-12-…
De EU kan zomaar Trumpiaanse regels aannemen waarmee agenten mensen thuis kunnen oppakken en uitzetten naar landen waar ze nog nooit zijn geweest. Als we ons nu niet uitspreken, kan dat zomaar het nieuwe normaal worden. Teken de petitie!WeMove Europe
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Die fuckers in Den Haag willen stoppen met de rioolwatermetingen voor covid, en álle andere pandemievoorbereidingen in de vuilbak flikkeren.
Hoe moet ik me dan nog beschermen, als zeer kwetsbaar persoon voor long covid, hufters?
En na het PAIS protest stond je nog te ouwehoeren dat je het zo erg vond voor ons??
Godverdomme, woest ben ik. Al zes jaar leef ik grotendeels in isolatie doordat wij chronisch zieken volkomen aan ons lot zijn overgelaten. En nu neem je zelfs de mogelijkheid weg waarmee we onszelf nog enigszins kunnen beschermen.
Waardoor we levenslang in volledige isolatie moeten!
En dat doe je omdat je niet herinnerd wil worden aan die paar weken dat je zelf even in isolatie moest tijdens de lockdown, want daar ben je zo door "getraumatiseerd"...
Fuck you!!
En dan waagt @De Volkskrant het ook nog om dit te vragen:
"Misschien is de gedachte wel: bij corona hadden we die organisatie ook niet van tevoren en we zijn er toch goed doorheen gekomen, het viel uiteindelijk allemaal wel mee."
> 50.000 doden! 500.000 long covid patiënten!
'VIEL ALLEMAAL WEL MEE??'
Ik zou je verdomme bijna de hel van long covid en de vogelgriep toewensen. Van Jetten tot Volkskrant, je bent verantwoordelijk en ooit zul je die verantwoordelijkheid moeten dragen 💀
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Zo eens!
Gaandeweg de dag ga ik trouwens steeds meer denken dat de vragensteller het nog bij het goede eind heeft ook, dat dat dus inderdaad de gedachte erachter is. Anders doe je dit toch niet!
"En na het PAIS protest stond je nog te ouwehoeren dat je het zo erg vond voor ons??"
Dit! ⬆️ Het is zo schaamteloos inhoudsloos en doorzichtig allemaal, die zogenaamde empathie.
En jemig, wat hebben die zg wappies gewonnen zeg.
😂 😂 😂
We just had a blizzard in the Northeast #USA and in #NYC a news reporter just wanted some empty chatter about the weather
But her interview subject had other ideas
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I have not watched this, but I get,
Is these 2 feet of Snow effecting your day?
He is like What are Stupid, of Course it is.
much better exchange than that
good for him, those f's are even trying to buy up my little neighborhood which is basically one circle in a street in Louisiana, it's f'n scary
they don't want working class or retired people to have anywhere to live at all > hubby finally stopped the calls for the time being by yelling at one of them that we're still living here & it doesn't matter if their offer is 5x what we paid in 1991 during the f'n S&L crisis when it isn't enough to buy another house to live in TODAY
@snowfall "why aren't the Epstein files being talked about more by the media?"
Because the people who own the media are in the files. #EpsteinClass
She pulled up to the wrong city with that bullshit. She would’ve gotten the slop shit she wanted upstate. Thank you, Conner, for representing and not falling for the okie-doke.
as someone who lived in brooklyn, then midtown manhattan, then the hudson valley, and now between the finger lakes and rochester ny, i don't know why you have a problem with what Eve said
i don't. i know what they're talking about
there is no need to get reflexively angry at Eve just because they didn't carve out special terms and conditions for the residents of Plattsburgh or Oswego 😂
it's a social media post not a legal document
look for intent and calm the fuck down
sure
turn on cc here
youtube.com/live/wI9pRBWumA4?t…
Live, non-stop coverage as blizzard-like conditions continue across the Tri-State area. A state of emergency remains in effect as heavy snow and gusty winds ...NBC New York (YouTube)
Sensitive content
i don't know. good microphones?
it's real though:
youtube.com/live/wI9pRBWumA4?t…
Live, non-stop coverage as blizzard-like conditions continue across the Tri-State area. A state of emergency remains in effect as heavy snow and gusty winds ...NBC New York (YouTube)
it's just so perfect
in most every other situation, the guy who wants to horn in with his own topic is just annoying
except on plastic tv, and with his chosen topic, it's {chef's kiss}
Hacktivists tried to find a workaround to Discord’s age-verification software, Persona. Instead, they found its frontend exposed to the open internet, and that was just the beginning.
therage.co/persona-age-verific…
Three hacktivists tried to find a workaround to Discord’s age-verification software. Instead, they found its frontend exposed to the open internet.L0la L33tz (The Rage)
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There is a security researcher called Celeste, just like meee! Weirdly enough, that makes me happy 
"""
Persona’s exposed code compares your selfie to watchlist photos using facial recognition, screens you against 14 categories of adverse media from mentions of terrorism to espionage, and tags reports with codenames from active intelligence programs consisting of public-private partnerships to combat online child exploitative material, cannabis trafficking, fentanyl trafficking, romance fraud, money laundering, and illegal wildlife trade.
Once a user verifies their identity with Persona, the software performs 269 distinct verification checks and scours the internet and government sources for potential matches...
"""
So to keep kids safe from online predators, we're willing to *horribly* invade their privacy and sell all their data to predators? I see the system is working as intended 😮💨
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@alice i juste read and article by @Ivovanwilligen about persona and if he doesn't know about all this well now he does !
His article : thelocalstack.eu/posts/linkedi…
Ah yes, "let us protect children by scanning their faces". What could possibly be wrong??? 🤡
“the software ‘flags you as a “suspicious entity” based on your face alone’ …”
Yay! Phrenology 2.0!
and meanwhile the Australian government is claiming credit for protecting children by standing up to social media companies to force them to use this kind of tech.
I’m sure the pressure is in the opposite direction.
@ollicle Yep. It's brilliant from a certain perspective. Horrifying, sinister, but with a certain genius.
The tech firms get to say "Oh, no, the horrible government is making us do this. Oh well. Now give us your identity documents."
The governments get to give the appearance of responding to (genuinely) grieving parents, and say "we're protecting the children" which is game over for any alternative voice. All the while receiving funding (directly or indirectly) from the tech firms that created the problem or the supposed solution, or their fellow travellers.
And parents get to believe their children's safety is taken care of.
l, “they took the most powerful communication technology in human history and turned it into a slot machine that makes you sad. We're all rats in a skinner box pressing the lever for pellets of validation.”
Yup
This level of centralisation of data is so so dangerous. Putting all our eggs in one basket digitally makes for a very inviting target, but this sort of infrastructure also concentrates power.
Knowledge is power, and this level of control can easily calcify our political systems and eat away at democracy.
Hey, maybe don’t verify yourself on LinkedIn. What an absolute shitshow: #privacy #linkedin #surveillancecapitalism https://thelocalstack.eu/posts/linkedin-identity-verification-privacy/Brian Sletten (Mastodon)
if something is free, never forget to ask who pays for it, who benefits?
I personally think it's great, though, that there are also people striving _for_ a better internet. That gives me hope. 🙂
One of the many reasons to be against #ageverification software
It gives the wrong people & companies tons of data, often #biometric ones
Therefore we transfers #power exactly the wrong people & #corporations
And as we can know latest since #Edwardsnowden companies do share data with governments
The cornerstone of the #chinese #surveillance #state is #realnameregistration
Don't give #biometrics to #evilcorp, especially not for cheap thrills
Do not hand data to #fascists
just don't use #discord and refuse to #ID as a matter of principle!
infosec.space/@kkarhan/1161142…
@deborahh@cosocial.ca @evacide@hachyderm.io That's why *"#KYC IS THE ILLICIT ACTIVITY!"* - I mean, there's a [*trivial bypass*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LsF4FF6gO4) but #Discord itself is garbage!Kevin Karhan :verified: (Infosec.Space)
Cue absolutely zero consequences in 3… 2… 1…
The state board of elections found Musk’s PAC sent prefilled ballot applications. Well, well, well.Turns Out There Was Voter Fraud in Georgia—by Elon Musk
newrepublic.com/post/206857/ge…#BankruptTesla #TeslaTakedown #CancelStarlink #BoycottSpaceX #ElonMusk #DOGE #Swastikars #USPol
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
EDIT: Diskussions under this are fine, but I do not want this to turn into an ad hominem attack to Cory. Be fucking respectful
tante.cc/2026/02/20/acting-eth…
Live is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mod…tante (Smashing Frames)
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AI is asbestos in the walls of our tech society, stuffed there by monopolists run amok. A serious fight against it must strike at its rootsCory Doctorow (the Guardian)
@pluralistic @FediThing
Unless you consider stolen intellectual property (and ongoing copyright violations) a harm, a deprivation, &c.
But your general analogy against "fruit of the poison tree" morality would seem to also apply in the case of slavery -- in my hypothetical, the person didn't enslave anyone. They just inherited a slave from someone who did. That is indeed "fruit of a poisoned tree", even if they just continued an existing enslavement.
We have a real world recent example -- the cell lines stolen from Henrietta Lacks. Do you dismiss any moral concerns about using her cell line without consent as a neo-liberal moral purity trap?
> LLMs are based on extraction, exploitation and subjugation
So is torrenting. This is a very capitalist argument, coming from someone that self-identifies as a communist, that one deserves to reap the rewards of them adding value to humanity through some form of gatekeeping and is entitled to a reward from such gatekeeping. You're literally arguing on the side of Elsevier and JSTOR against Aaron Swartz
What does it matter if human knowledge is available as a book or an LLM? The important part is that all of humanity has access to it.
> Omelas is an almost perfect city. Rich, democratic, pleasant. But it only works by having one small child in perpetual torment.
Walking away from Omelas doesn't stop that child's perpetual torment. Your choice is merely ignorance and cowardice in front of injustice. Choosing to stay in Omelas and poison its democratic system to lead to its downfall is the arguably the more moral option. Let's not even get into the argument about how Germany made the Eurozone its Omelas at the expense of deficit-prone southern Europe, and how you should leave Germany by your argument.
> If everything is somehow “free and open” then we have won.
your moral choice to not use LLMs is the same as abandoning Omelas and the eternally tormented child, it serves as nothing but intellectual onanism. Distilling GPT 5, Opus 4.6, commoditising the petaflop (see George Hotz), deploying efficient models on Huawei chips is the same as causing rot in Omelas from the inside, causing the billions invested into AI to be worthless, tearing down the system that is perpetually tormenting that child. It is the only way forward.
Cory was right to label this "neolib purity testing", because 1) it sides with capital (see above point re: torrenting), 2) it tries to don the mantel of dialectical materialism, while viewing this issue through a lens of "individualist action" and static morality and 3) It endlessly criticises power instead of aiming to claim and wield it for good.
> AI bubble bursts
For about ~30k I can run deepseek on a rig in my apartment, forever. That's pennies for a startup. How do you envision this bubble bursting such that LLMs are gone?
So Cory Doctorow has hopped on the GenAI/LLM train, mmm?
Ok. ok.
So human individuals are also subject to enshitification? OMGods!! Who knew? 🙄
@mastodonmigration nope nope nope nope stop with the slopologism
Using LLMs to search the universe for dark matter using survey telescopic data or to identify drug efficacy using anonymized public health records is simply using the latest technology for good purpose.
that’s the broader field of machine learning. not LLMs
LLMs are by and large unethical cognitive decline inducing generators of soulless slop.
@jaredwhite @dhd6 @simonzerafa You're right, that would be a silly thing to say.
Good thing I didn't say it.
@pluralistic @ianbetteridge @FediThing
It's still profit loss damage curable by income transfer if the illegally acquired data was used to create that profit. Dataset prominence should provide the percentage of profits and prominence is data size but also inference casualty. The primary literature should not be able to be diluted with free intellectual property.
I don't know if any of this is actual case law and I'm not a lawyer.
@pluralistic @dhd6 @simonzerafa Good grief, these ad hoc rationalizations are absurd and you know it.
FYI, rockets are enormously environmentally destructive (fuel, pollution, noise, etc.). The planet would be better off with as few rockets launching as possible.
Saying an LLM is OK because some completely other "good" technology was invented by evil people is a *non argument*.
@Mastodon Migration
it's the "copyright" issue, the outlook that unless everyone who posted anything that was used receives a check for a hefty sum then it's unethical.
Copyright is in quotes because it's not really a violation of copyright (the LLMs are not producing whole copies of copywritten materials without basically being forced) nor is it a violation of the intent of copyright (people are confused, copyright was never intended to give artists total control, it's just to ensure new art continues to be created).
@pluralistic @ianbetteridge @FediThing “Mathematical analysis” is doing a lot of work here. It could mean gathering meaningless statistics. Or it could mean capturing the qualities (deviations from the average) that make a particular work of art (or author) special, creative, surprising—for use in simulacra.
I think that's harmful, to the culture as a whole, if not to the artworks and artists getting regurgitated.
I have to assume Cory's been bought by Big LLM.
I don't give a shit really but it's funny he's enraged his fans who think he's super smart and a great sci fi writer when he's really only good at fluffing himself. At least Gaiman was a genuinely good writer - something Doctorow only dreams of. (I despise Gaiman and will not read or watch any of his stuff because he's a shit human being.)
@bjn @ianbetteridge @FediThing
Once again, you're talking about *using* a model, not training a model.
Also "IP theft" isn't a thing. Perhaps you mean copyright infringement?
@gleick @ianbetteridge @FediThing
Let's stipulate to that (I don't agree, as it happens, but that's OK). It's still not a copyright infringement to enumerate and analyze the elements of a copyrighted work.
For the record, I think AI art is bad and neither consume nor make it.
@bjn @ianbetteridge @FediThing it is a bedrock of copyright law that devices 'capable of sustaining a substantial non-infringing use' are lawful. Decided in 1984 (SCOTUS/Betamax) and repeatedly upheld.
It is categorically untrue that merely because a model's output can infringe copyright that the model is therefore illegal.
There's not much that's truly settled in American limitations and exceptions, but this is.
So, what I feel like is happening here, is:
1. Some people are making a comprehensive argument against the use of LLMs, well-supported on all sides.
2. This metastasizes into a yelling match about "AI", with fuzzy boundaries and highly emotionally charged language, with a lot of participants who aren't necessarily experts or do not have the time to make a careful argument.
3. Cory picks a fight with this *real* but not-particularly-robust position, skipping stronger counterarguments.
Which "couple million people" suffer harm when I run a model ON MY LAPTOP?
Anyone who's hosting a website, and is getting hammered by the bots that seek content to train the models on. Those of us are the ones who continue getting hurt.
Whether you run it locally or not, makes little difference. The models were trained, and training very likely involved scraping, and that continues to be a problem to this day. Not because of ethical concerns, but technical ones: a constant 100req/sec 24/7, with over 2.5k req/sec waves may sound little in this day and age, but at around 2.5k req/sec (sustained for about a week!), my cheap VPS's two vCPUs are bogged down trying to deal with all the TLS handshakes, let alone serving anything.
That is a cost many seem to forget. It costs bandwidth, CPU, and human effort to keep things online under the crawler DDoS - which often will require cold, hard cash too, to survive.
Ask Codeberg or LWN how they fare under crawler load, and imagine someone who just wants to have their stuff online having to deal with similar abuse.
That is the suffering you enable when using any LLM model, even locally.
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@Ghostrunner @Cory Doctorow @Colman Reilly @FediThing @tante
You had a higher opinion of him, but not of yourself? And yet you wonder why he's popular.
I'm not a fan of all the shit throwing in this thread, but if you participate, you're going to get some on you.
@pluralistic @ianbetteridge @FediThing I'm not claiming that's copyright infringement. Even if one respects the general framework of copyright, which I know you don’t, it seems hopeless to apply it to this AI mess.
But there is a kind of theft here. Not that it's actionable or measurable. But it’s nontrivial. It's related to questions of impersonation. It's an assault on individuality. Whatever your reasons for thinking AI art is bad (I have some sense), it's related to that, too.
I think the sense of “theft” that creators feel is directly caused by the fact that the AI industry (as it stands today) is a Ponzi scheme which is fundamentally built on remixing creators’ works and devaluing human labor. I have a feeling that most creators will not feel the same kind of outrage if an educational institution created the same technology for academic use, e.g. to generate insights into online culture and psychology.
In short, the GRIFT (i.e. the particular application of the technology) is the source of the feeling of theft, not the technology itself. I think the tech itself has value when used ethically.
FWIW I agree with Cory here that copyright is the *wrong* framework to use for criticizing AI, because for every case where copyright helps the individual creator, there are hundreds of cases where it helps incumbent megacorporations more.
#ai
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@pluralistic
The argument was "without the consent of the creators of said works." And you know that.
Don't be just another debate bro. Please.
@pluralistic
No, because dictionnaries are about language which is a shared common, encyclopedias are about knowledge, which is a shared common, and bibliohraphies are a list of works, not a derivative.
Knowledge, language and a list of works cannot be copyrighted. You can use language, knowledge, words from the dictionary. You can quote an encyclopedia when refering to the source. None of that is even relevant to this discussion.
@Dave Rahardja @Cory Doctorow @tante @FediThing @James Gleick @Ian Betteridge
I think there's a couple of aspects to the "theft":
* the theft of material: they're trained on copyrighted material
* the theft of jobs: AI is being used to replace artists/writers/coders; it's the same thing that upset the Luddites
* the theft of style: not only does AI "learn" from the works of others, it can emulate it. On demand. Some artists have very unique, personal styles that are suddenly not their own anymore.
@mcv @pluralistic @FediThing @gleick @ianbetteridge Again, the concept of a technology that is “trained” by analyzing copyrighted material is not inherently bad. It’s the way that it is *developed and used* that could be morally questionable.
I bet most creators don’t mind people using AI technology to analyze and remix their works for academic or historical research, or even for search. What they mind is their use to power a Ponzi scheme that destroys human worth.
I think it is the case that many people who oppose the use of LLMs do so in a way which follows the pattern of purity culture -- in the particular way they are judgmental towards everyone who uses them
... however opposing the use of LLMs can still is a very reasonable moral act.
I think this plays out in this way because, at least in the USA, so much of people's idea of how to do morality is based in a certain kind of protestant Christianity
@pluralistic You should read the top-of-thread link. It lays out in detail the author's disagreements with you in a respectful manor.
Maybe you'll call it incoherent because you don't want to listen to accusations of going against your own principles, noone does. But I would disagree.
@pluralistic
> untrue that merely because a model's output can infringe copyright that the model is therefore illegal.
Mhmmm naaah overfitting and memorization are very much a thing, especially in the case of LLM where they've completely given up on controlling data leaks, and where memorization has been demonstrated rather unambiguously e.g. with the suitesparse example...
Not to imply that "illegal" is bad ofc, or that copyright justifiable
@pluralistic
> IPREG affirming that training a model doesn't infringe.
What we now take the party line serious?
@pluralistic @bjn @ianbetteridge @FediThing
I’d argue that It’s a bit more nuanced. Training and inference are two separate stages with their own rules.
For non profit, academic research, excerpts are allowed to be collected, but not the whole work. You still can’t circumvent DRM either.
Llama might be argued is non profit, but lifting whole works to train on still isn’t allowed.
@cford My only real takeaway here is that good arguments only can proceed when the arguer puts forth the opposing case in terms its proponents agree with.
I don’t think that’s what Cory did here. And, y’know that’s fine, in a real sense – not all essays need promote good arguments. When he accurately portrays the views of monopolists, regardless if they would claim to agree, that’s still a perspective worth observing.
Dictionaries reference the sources they use for examples in the entries themselves.
LLMs lose the references at training time.
You've got this dead wrong.
I've struggled for a while to reconcile people's justified outrage at the AI bubble's incalculably harmful unsustainability with the need to deny that even the most banal utility of its outputs could ever possibly have merit.
Credit to @pluralistic for really articulating why I find the "Not Even Once" crowd to be largely missing the point, even if we all agree that the "AI True Believers" are ghoulish monsters.
@pluralistic @dhd6 @simonzerafa
The patent system is designed around an acknowledgement that we invent while "standing on the shoulders" of those who have gone before -- this premise is built into the patent system; policy decisions support this approach.
Patent grants exclusive rights to the inventor for a limited time. In exchange, the.inventor must disclose how a person versed in the arts can replicate that invention.
The same is not true of literature / copyright. Different animal, different approach.
So this is some kind of spell-checker, which is already in LibreOffice? I'm not sure why I would use that instead.
I use offline AI, esp for visual effects, subtitles, fixing dialogue errors, etc. There are "deep fake technologies" useful for mocap, camera tracking, and such other tedious works. They don't use prompts, and don't generate art, and are trained on your own inputs.
Perhaps we need a new name to differentiate it from the online genAI tech.
@dhd6 @pluralistic @simonzerafa IMHO this is already going down the wrong path.
If you follow anything I write or boost, you'll quickly note that I'm very vocal against AI. But that is a shorthand; my actual position is that I'm fine with the *tech*, strongly dislike the *waste* (where applicable), but my actual complaint is that the AI bubble is literally a fascist project.
Outside of FOMO, every reason people use or promote AI based things in this bubble is designed to...
@dhd6 @pluralistic @simonzerafa ... disenfranchise people, by partially replacing them with a machine that imitates their work. And unlike people, machines can be owned.
Their output functions like a natural resource (except it's not natural), and there is insurmountable historic precedent that this promotes tyrannies. The TL;DR of it being that when you can mine natural resources, you are less reliant on a fed, educated, healthy, mobile population - so public spending becomes a waste.
@dhd6 @pluralistic @simonzerafa The problem isn't ingesting text from the web. The problem isn't using this to generate new text, or spell check existing text.
The problem is that capitalist logic demands that this is used to move "value" from the general population to property oligarchs own. Marx would have started talking about labour here.
That this promotes fascism is certainly the effect, and when you look at those who stand to win, probably also the reason.
@dhd6 @simonzerafa So, yes, whether something is or isn't open plays into that, and I get the complaint.
But at the same time, it's a distraction.
The general position @pluralistic holds in the blog post is very much in line with distinguishing between the tech and the bubble.
Personally, I feel like responding to that with "yeah, but it's not good enough" is a very good example of the kind of Leftist purity culture that is so, so effective at hindering collaboration.
@pluralistic @elle @dhd6 @simonzerafa I beg to differ. Demand is a powerful and legit tool of people responding to corporate behavior. Choosing a different product because you dislike a maker's conduct is nought but the invisible hand of the market slapping that maker for their conduct. Provenience does matter.
Smearing choice of provenience as wilful purism would be the perfect argument for any company to disregard social or ethical standards, constituting a right to demand for the 'best' offer. Which would take us into the field of classic objectivism, and be in itself as willful and naive as the purism it accuses consumers of.
@pluralistic After reading so many comments, it is pretty clear who here would be opposing the creation of Napster and torrenting and be defending RIAA... They are also clearly very much against Internet Archive, shadow libraries, etc, simply because they can't take any disagreement.
Who knew running a local LLM, that uses the same energy as watching a youtube video, to spellcheck your own work would bring out such a mob.
@sibrosan this reminds me of Ship of Theseus as in every time one outsources the art to a tool there will become a point where one does not have the craft of the art anymore.
In this case, the art of grammar checking and the tool being a LLM. By constantly using a LLM to do the grammar checking, one is replacing the art of grammar checking slowly through time to the point that nothing on the original art of grammar checking is equivalent to the current version.
@pluralistic @correl @skyfaller @FediThing @tante massive oversimplification. This is the wording of a policy I support…. It… disagrees….
“Employees must not enter personal information, confidential information, or intellectual property into any Artificial Intelligence Tool, including approved tools, as doing so may expose …… to privacy breaches, legal and security risks, or loss of control over institutional data.”
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mod…tante (Smashing Frames)
Pluralistic: Six Years of Pluralistic (19 Feb 2026)Cory Doctorow (Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow)
> Again, it twists the argument in the way that the AI corporations like to do it as well: Search engines scour the web so AI companies should be allowed the same. It’s the same technology!
Just to add to your argument, there is another key difference between scraping for searching and scraping for LLMs.
Scraping for searching does have the concept of consent (if imperfect): it's opt-out, you can always say that you don't consent to your website (wholly or in parts) be scraped (by specific search engines or all of them), in your `robots.txt` controlled by you, and your decision will be respected. And this works also for revoking previous implicitly (or even explicitly) given consent.
As far as I'm aware no LLM honors `robots.txt`, and even if they would, they still don't and cannot offer any mechanism for consent revocation.
The problem with AI is not primarily with tech itself, but human traits of laziness, greed and ignoring unpriced externalities for short-sighted personal gains. Those of course exist even without AI, but AI allows for their damage to be multiplied many thousandfold which upgrades it from minor annoyance to existential crisis.
And the problem with Cory saying he's preferring using his AI is not exact cost of him using AI model (which is tiny), it is NORMALIZING 1/3
I agree with you, I feel the same way and I have not been published.
I’m really enjoying The Three Ages of Water. I slowed down my read to really enjoy your writing and the amazing breadth of knowledge in it.
A must read. The government's immigration proposals are immoral, expensive (falls in immigration already damaging our economy) and will not achieve the stated aims.
The government's immigration plans: a dog’s dinner of half-conceived policy, Reform rhetoric, mean-spirited sentiment, and profound intellectual muddle iandunt.substack.com/p/can-we-ext...Can we extract the Reform nonsense from Labour?
These immigration proposals are obscene, but the government can be forced to think again.Ian Dunt (Striking 13)
People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditions
People should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
Advocating for Android as a free, open platform for everyone to build apps on.keepandroidopen.org
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GrapheneOS discussion forumGrapheneOS Discussion Forum
@j2 @illumniscate Gaël Duval has extensively spread misinformation about GrapheneOS and /e/ to falsely market his products for his for-profit company. He has engaged in extensive libel and harassment towards our team. Here's an example of him linking to harassment content based on fabrications on a blatant neo-nazi conspiracy website, which he has done repeatedly:
archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO
Please don't mention him in replies to us or otherwise involve him.
@j2 @GrapheneOS @illumniscate @gael Please note that Murena is a scam, this is not an honest project and it's dangerous to use it.
discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134…
Old blog by a LineageOS dev, the issues with /e/a are not news : ewwlo.void.partidopirata.com.a…
In this discussion on Hacker News, a user who has used Murena products confirms that /e/OS completely breaks Android's security model, signed with Google's test keys with an unlocked bootloader that cannot be locked, which would have been pointless since these test keys are not intended for production. Of course, users duped by Murena's misleading marketing will claim that this is not important and assert that the GrapheneOS project is toxic, but correcting misinformation has never been toxic behavior.
There are many other problems with /e/. Gael Duval is a scammer, and he, his team, and his community are involved in spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and its users. In fact, the people in this Hacker News thread who are attacking GrapheneOS for things it doesn't do are users of /e/.
I remember when Apple launched the Apple Store and how I felt about it:
“Wait, what?!: do they own my device and my relationship with the people that make the software?!”
“Didn’t I pay for this thing?”
During the last five years, I spent a fairly significant amount of time developing an android app. I got a developer account and had an alpha release on the play store.
Unfortunately, personal circumstances took my focus away from it for some time, and by the time I got back to it, my account had been deleted after I hadn't responded to one of their requests.
I found the sign up process unpleasant and intrusive, so the idea of going through it again is not appealing. Naturally, I thought about putting my app on another store. The idea of that company being in control of what I can provide to other people to run on their devices was enough to make me quit. I won't be releasing my work as long as this restriction is being held over us.
I should add: even having said all that, I can at least acknowledge that there is a case for IDs being checked before permitting apps to ship via their own store. I wish it wasn't the same company that's harvesting so much other personal data, but I do think it is preferable that apps are not published with no verified responsible person.
Once again, I'd be a lot more comfortable if identity verification could be done by a provider of my choice with only a token being passed to the store.
Not saying i agree with Google. But how is the OS community going to fight the forces of evil trying to hijack our code?
Between malware labs, ai slop and slop powered malware labs, i am worried. The idea of making sure real accountable humans are writing honest code seems appealing....
@steve Compared to a wild west anything goes lord of the flies app repo? Probably.
I yearn for the day when OSS can provide a trustworthy app ecosystem that can also let devs earn a living - something easy and consolidated yet safe from enshitification. But in my 15 years as a linux user and oss enthusiast, things have just gotten more fragmented. Seems this is now androids future too...
Can Android be saved?
I say no--it's too late.
mastodon.social/@DaveMasonDotM…
Well, I've given up. Again. I think the Android ecosystem is entirely hopeless. Android may technically be 'open source', but in name only. Not in practice. Google and the hardware manufacturers have an iron grip that they'll never relinquish.Dave Mason (Mastodon)
I'm with you on this. The list of disabled ('cos I can't uninstall) Google apps on my phone is impressively long and includes play services and play store. I rely on F-Droid and, heaven help me APKpure - which has both the additional apps I can't get from F-Droid but also the worlds biggest collection of UX anti patterns for flinging ads in every conceivable way and at all times. Hate it but still prefer it to Google.
I hate this new proposal from Google but don't know what to do. Polite suggestions welcome 😇
There is nothing to "keep" open. Android was never open. They astroturfed an entire "open alliance" to... force all participants to push their apps and prohibit any and all forks. Since like 2008!
Android was never open, and at least they're finally honest about it.
Hopefully this will give #FOSS devs an incentive to shift app development to #mobilelinux if Google pushes ahead with this.
There ARE alternatives. I'm fully aware that they are, for the most part, not prime time ready, but they DO exist, and they've come a long way.
Maybe Google doing this will be a blessing in disguise, as it may just be what's needed to give #linuxphones a push.
I, for one, will switch to one form of mobile Linux or another, if Obtainium/F-Droid/IzzyOnDroid are killed off by this.
#obtainium #izzyondroid #postmarketos #ubuntutouch #ubports #sailfishos #phosh #gnomemobile #plasmamobile
@aerion Most Linux phone OSes have *far worse* security than Android.
Why not just use an AOSP-based OS like @GrapheneOS ? You get all of the upsides and very few to none of the downsides.
Even if you do not like Google's decisions, just ditching the engineering marvel that is AOSP does not make much sense at all.
fair, but a lot of people mean SailfishOS, Plasma, Ubuntu Touch when they refer to 'mobile Linux', like (I assume) the person I was reacting to.
I completely agree with your criticism of the security and privacy of the desktop Linux stack. I have been trying to shout that off the rooftops for years, but it's an uphill battle.
@danieldk
I would, if it wasn't for the fact that it only runs on Pixel phones.
That makes GrapheneOS even more of a niche operating system than the various mobile Linux options, as at least they run on more than one brand of hardware.
I very deliberately opted for a #Fairphone, a device that, apart from its ethical and sustainability benefits, can run several alternative OSs.
I severely dislike what Android has grown into: an increasingly more restrictive OS, with artificially imposed limitations that we would not accept in our desktop OSs. It has enabled hardware manufacturers to lock users into a purely profit driven perpetual upgrade cycle.
Why can I install Linux on 15+ years old hardware, with ease, and use it with modern software, yet I cannot do the same with a mobile phone or tablet? It fuels an ever growing pile of electronic waste.
What I ultimately want from my mobile devices is the exact same freedom I have on my desktop.
@aerion @danieldk Fairphones have very poor updates, privacy and security regardless of OS choice.
Fairphone doesn't provide proper updates from day 1. Fairphone 5 launched September 2023 and already has an end-of-life 5.4 kernel branch with no plan to upgrade. They weren't providing the kernel updates when they were available themselves but another OS could have done it and now it's impractical. Fairphone similarly doesn't keep the drivers, firmware and other components properly updated.
@aerion @danieldk GrapheneOS is a privacy and security hardened OS and has hardware requirements based on it. The only laptops/desktops meeting similar requirements are from Apple but it's unclear how much of the security features could be used elsewhere.
GrapheneOS and the Android Open Source Project are Linux distros. It's not glibc, systemd and GNOME which make it Linux. Most of the software you're calling Linux isn't even Linux specific but rather also works on FreeBSD, Hurd, etc.
@aerion @danieldk GrapheneOS has a large and rapidly growing userbase. Many people care about privacy and security who aren't misled into believing operating systems and hardware far worse at both than an iPhone are the answer.
Instead of supporting devices not meeting bare minimum privacy and security standards, we're working on proper devices meeting our full requirements with an OEM partner. They're one of the largest smartphone companies and are announcing our partnership next month.
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@GrapheneOS When geeks call for Linux on Mobile, do you believe "Android is Linux" to be a good-faith interpretation of what they mean?
Or should "Mobile Linux [running a mainline kernel without un-updateable vendor blobs]" be stated explicitly every time?
@xethos You're misinformed about Android and are making inaccurate statements about it. We're providing accurate information.
Android doesn't require any downstream kernel patches and works fine with mainline Linux kernels. All of the kernel drivers for Android are typically open source. The issue of SoC vendors and other hardware vendors providing software support in the form of proprietary libraries and services such as the ARM Mali GPU library isn't specific to Android or caused by Android.
@xethos The reason we replied is to avoid misconceptions. Your reply demonstrations you're misinformed about this yourself.
Android doesn't require any downstream kernel patches and works fine with mainline Linux kernels. All of the kernel drivers for Android are typically open source. The issue of SoC vendors and other hardware vendors providing software support in the form of proprietary libraries and services such as the ARM Mali GPU library isn't specific to Android or caused by Android.
@GrapheneOS @aerion a Linux distro has a different threat model than an Android "distro".
This is exactly what people mean when they say that GrapheneOS people (and in particular this [official?] account in this case) are quite aggressive disparaging all the other ecosystems.
Don't get me wrong, I liked GrapheneOS while I had it (I had to return the Pixel device I was using it on), but I don't like this behavior.
@mdione @aerion
> a Linux distro has a different threat model than an Android "distro".
Android distributions are Linux distributions. Desktop Linux distributions don't truly have a different threat model but provide much weaker privacy and security than the Android Open Source Project. They lack modern exploit protections, broad use of memory safe languages and a mandatory app sandbox. They only have very incomplete app sandboxing without a modern permission model available for it.
@GrapheneOS @aerion Linux "classical" distros come from a position where the soft available to them are pre curated by the companies and or communities building them, so the need for such things are no so pressing.
Andorid distros face applications that mostly not curated (except for 3rd party repos like f-droid, which are also pre curated by the communities), so they have other threat models. Personally, I find them too extreme, but currently is the best option on phones.
@mdione @aerion Neither open source or distribution packaging inherently provide privacy or security. It's not the case that people only use software from official repositories regardless.
Contrary to the common misconception, only using software from distribution repositories doesn't avoid trusting the upstream developers and doesn't address supply chain attacks. As an example, Debian shipped a backdoor in sshd after it was included in the xz project as part of the published sources.
@mdione @aerion A plain Android system without modification in a fork is the Android Open Source Project. It provides a much higher level of privacy and security. LineageOS reduces privacy and security compared to that baseline but is still far more private and secure than traditional desktop Linux distributions.
Stock Pixel OS and every other OEM variant of Android are forks of AOSP just like GrapheneOS. AOSP is the reference implementation of Android and is the upstream project for it.
Neil Brown reshared this.
@mdione @aerion
> This is exactly what people mean when they say that GrapheneOS people (and in particular this [official?] account in this case) are quite aggressive disparaging all the other ecosystems.
We posted a reply addressing misconceptions with accurate information. There was nothing in any way aggressive about what we posted. You're making dishonest claims about GrapheneOS and our team as you've done previously. It's you who being aggressive and causing us to defend ourselves.
@GrapheneOS @aerion
> The desktop Linux software stack has atrocious privacy and security compared to the Android Open Source Project.
Why did you chose the word "atrocious"? You don't find that aggressive? Don't you find aggressive the toot you deleted? Not even a "sorry, that's not what I/we meant" or anything...
@GrapheneOS @aerion This is not the first time I read something you wrote and thought "why, having such an amazing project, do they write like this?".
I'm even following you, I like what you do!
Except the way you communicate.
@mdione @aerion
> Why did you chose the word "atrocious"?
It's an accurate and important description of the state of desktop operating systems. No one should be under the impression that a traditional desktop OS is providing strong privacy or security.
> You don't find that aggressive?
No, it's an accurate technical statement about Windows, desktop Linux distributions and to a lesser extent macOS compared to iOS and AOSP.
Meanwhile, you're disparaging us with dishonest claims...
Why does it seem so unheard of then to run AOSP, or newer versions of AOSP-based operating systems than would usually be possible due to eBPF to older devices, that PostmarketOS has mainlined?
A few years ago I got PostmarketOS with the main basics working okay with a very close to mainline kernel on an old unsupported uncommon msm8916 phone.
As an insecure novelty, it would be cool to run Android 16 on a phone that ended support on Android 6, yet such examples seem to not exist .
@GrapheneOS
According to the third party OS comparison, GrapheneOS is "deblobbed". Are there any intentions to replace proprietary userspace drivers with open alternatives, where they are available, like the Mali GPU driver library? (though Panfrost doesn't have the well tested and well documented android support like the mesa Adreno drivers)
With your new upcoming snapdragon devices, is there any intention to using turnip+zink, or turnip and freedreno instead of the proprietary drivers?
ALL
Trouble is: play services requiring apps, banking apps and the nonsense apps without which useless banking companies will not even let us use our own money. Sick and tired of this crap.
Examples: citi bank, hdfc, icici, stanci, hsbc, and the list goes on... These do not work without pathetic gps and stuff. Govs give a shit.
& yes, I am fully aware of microg and stuff, which still does not help. I am with team FD, Aurora and few others.
A nostr solution would be nice 👌
Give it a bit of time and @75d737c3 might be perfect for you and us
@GrapheneOS what I'm saying is that you express yourselves in a way that most people, as I heard, and me in particular, find aggressive, and as I understand, is what drives people away. I'm suggesting you to revise the way you communicate.
For instance, you say I'm lying. I don't think I lied. I just gave an opinion on the way you communicate.
I think you used words too negative like "atrocious". en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atrocio… You don't find that aggressive?
Aral Balkan reshared this.
Distributing either developer builds of apps or builds done by packagers for an app repository will still work fine for both Google Mobile Services operating systems and alternatives including GrapheneOS.
On the Google Mobile Services operating systems, there's going to a more complex warning flow for apps signed with keys not belonging to Google Play verified developers.
Here's a better post about it with more accurate info on what's changing and the impact:
blog.accrescent.app/posts/andr…
Google recently announced that starting next year, Android will require all apps to be registered by verified developers for users to install them on their devices, i.e.Logan Magee (Accrescent Blog)
It's hardly a crisis and won't result in any warnings being displayed for the vast majority of app distribution outside of the Play Store.
Not all open source app developers will want to perform the verification. Their apps can be signed and distributed by others willing to do it to avoid it being more complex to install the apps on Google Mobile Services devices.
It has no direct impact on GrapheneOS since we don't include GMS and don't give GMS apps privileged access when installed.
Just posted the following on Google's form. Please share and write:
docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAI…
"It is UNACCEPTABLE, monopolistic, intrusive & unnecessary. I only use apps from other stores and have disabled PlayServices & play store. I object to your data acquisitive practices and having bought my phone refuse your assertion that you should arbitrate my use of it through the lens of Google's commercial interest. Particularly your likely roadmap where you'll reject the software that keeps MY data and usage private and ad-free. If you refuse to acknowledge this need, I suspect I, and many like me will be moving to an Open OS. If the cost is that my bank app won't work, it'll be a pain but one I'll endure. "
Use this form to submit questions or feedback about the new Android developer verification requirements announced in August 2025. You can learn more about the requirements in the Android developer verification guide. Sign up for early access here.Google Docs
Maar intussen laten de VS en Nederland de Koerden keihard vallen, en weigert Nederland ook maar iets te doen aan de terreur die wij naar Syrië exporteerden.
Nederlandse IS-gevangenen voor de rechter in Irak, na overplaatsing uit Syrië door leger VS volkskrant.nl/buitenland/neder…Nederlandse IS-gevangenen voor de rechter in Irak, na overplaatsing uit Syrië door leger VS
In de Iraakse hoofdstad Bagdad zitten enkele Nederlandse IS-gevangenen vast. De Nederlanders maken deel uit van een groep van ruim vijfduizend IS-gevangenen die door het Amerikaanse leger zijn overgeplaatst uit buurland Syrië.Ana van Es (de Volkskrant)
The #FDroid website has a new banner on top to remind visitors that #Google did not change course and #Android will be locked-down in under 200 days.
If you care about the freedom to control your devices and care about the privacy of you data, please contact your representative and make your voice heard.
keepandroidopen.org/ (thanks @marcprux) has the resources to guide you.
We know users will rarely visit the site so the Client(s) will get a banner soon too.
Thank you for your support!
Advocating for Android as a free, open platform for everyone to build apps on.keepandroidopen.org
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The defunct email addresses in that section are depressing.
It just sends me to a place where I can report an antitrust claim. Like say google is breaking the law and needs to be investigated.
I don't know what I'd tell them they're doing wrong nor what steps should be taken. I'm especially baffled because we already let Apple do this shit.
I can't just complain about stuff on a crime reporting form. I need to be reporting something.
This page documents how a new application gets included in the main F-Droid repository. It includes the technical details that a submitter should be aware of...f-droid.org
Got a quick answer from EU's DMA Team, they might have a standard response due to high demand :
> Dear citizen,
>
> Thank you for contacting us and sharing your concerns regarding the impact of Google’s plans to introduce a developer verification process on Android. We appreciate that you have chosen to contact us, as we welcome feedback from interested parties.
... 1/N
Advocating for Android as a free, open platform for everyone to build apps on.keepandroidopen.org
Thanks for the link
I still have problems to understand what happens with apps like those of fossify, or DuckDuckGo for example, that i downloaded and maintain over F-Droid, but that are also available on Playstore and thus should be under the "verified" category.
These should still work but not the F-Droid Store App itself so i need to update via a website manually???
I am not an IT person. I genuelly have problems understanding this, despite having read the infos i found so far.
@v_d_richards If signed by the developer (reproducible) and the developer has submitted to the Google pressure, the app will work fine.
If signed by F-Droid, we think they will not work at all, not even our Client, so we will not be able to provide updates.
For those apps already on Play you will submit to Google's rules and use Play, right?
For those not on Play... good luck tracking the APK, if the developer bowed down.
I hated Google before, but do more every day.
I had hoped that if Apps and their developers took it on them to do the verification shit, loading and maintaining at least such apps from other places than PlayStore would be possible in Android.
The users are trapped:
Banking Apps and some others don' t work with Custom Roms.
Open Source from free places will no longer work on G-Android.
The only solution is havingntwo devices which is expensive af.
I.hate.Google.so.much.
Si china puede hacer un clon de Android, ¿Acaso no puede hacerlo Europa?
¿Para cuando un Linux para dispositivos móviles?
¿hasta cuando seguiremos siendo vasallos de las multinacionales norteamericanas?
¿Para cuando nuestra delcaración de Soberania Digital?
¡Sin Soberania Digital no hay libertad, independencia ni democrácia!
@apicultor Everything we do is transparent and public, eg. floss.social/@fdroidorg/116086…
@Alonely0 @cy8aer Older apps were added when reproducibility wasn't achievable. For this reason today only about 22% of apps that we host are signed by their developer. This number will increase with time as we push for reproducibility at inclusion time. Also, switching from one signer to another is an annoying process that users need to take manually, for security reasons.
Have you addressed the points made by the creator of #Wireguard regarding the security of your build infra?
gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-…
Supply chain security is super-duper underrated. Thanks for the spotlight, Jia Tan!
Per https://f-droid.org/en/docs/Inclusion_Policy/ The software must not download additional executable binary files (e.g. addons, auto-updates, etc.) without explicit user consent....GitLab
F-Droid is the FOSS app distribution ecosystem for Android where your user freedom comes first. Discover our app store to explore the world of free and open source (FOSS) apps and [learn](https://f-droid.f-droid.org
Thank you for your amazing work. For me its time to switch to Linux in under 200 days.
mastodon.fbin.in/@fbinin/11608…
github.com/offa/android-foss/p…
@shuvashish76Add Keep Android Open notice by offa · Pull Request #606 · offa/android-foss
A list of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) for Android – saving Freedom and Privacy. - Add Keep Android Open notice by offa · Pull Request #606 · offa/android-fossGitHub
If Google doesn't want to play nice, I suppose we have options...
Huawei HarmonyOS: harmonyos.com/en/
Samsung TizenOS: samsungtizenos.com/
Perhaps an Android exodus would scare Google enough to backtrack on its registration agenda.
Does anyone know how this affects phones that already have F-Droid and apps from there installed?
Will some Android/Google Update make them stop working all of a sudden? Or not let me update them anymore? Or will this affect only future Android versions?
@F-Droid @Viktoria D. Richards/Uddelhexe
How does it affect degoogled Android? Will F-Droid Work on Custom ROMs? Will someone tech-savvy still be able to degoogle android and make F-Droid work? Will it be possible to flash an existing android with a custom ROM?
Or: Do I need to buy a phone with a custom ROM preinstalled? Will someone else fork AOSP and save it for custom ROMs?
So many questions. I hate the direction Google is heading to. Which Chance do have surveillance conscious people to get out of it?
I think it is useless to keep android open. As long as google controls it, it is a sinking ship.
Much better to move to other alternatives like Jolla or other linuxbased options and rebuild from scratch.
will this affect lineage phones? (or any other roms)
Directly or indirectly?
Advocating for Android as a free, open platform for everyone to build apps on.keepandroidopen.org
Adding regulator and right group information from the Chinese Mainland.GitHub
@nathanael @GrapheneOS We should be allies in the Android ecosystem (specially during these days) but they choose to be frenemies for some reason.
Fun fact: We talked with more GOS users at FOSDEM than stock Android users. 🤔
@Alonely0 @cy8aer Since you brought up the signature model, Google Play requires devs keep the signing keys with them, F-Droid just offers it as an option. F-Droid offers using only the upstream signature if the app is reproducible. f-droid.org/docs/Reproducible_…
Also, how the APK signing keys are managed has nothing to do with Android Developer Verification or Keep Android Open.
Introduction F-Droid works to spread reproducible builds across the free software Android ecosystem. The goal is to enable software build processes that anyo...f-droid.org
Good to know that Google are keeping their track about "Apple-izing" themselves.
They just waited until there were absolutely zero competitor to close the whole thing.
Time to degoogleize all mobile OSes 😮💨
Thank you for the information and links at keepandroidopen.org/
Got a relatively generic and neutral but friendly response.
I'm still unsure whether this contributes a drop to filling the ocean... 🤔
Advocating for Android as a free, open platform for everyone to build apps on.keepandroidopen.org
@paet floss.social/@fdroidorg/116086…
Yes, standard text. Maybe we should encourage people to mention that not being able to install software on a device can't be a necessary and proportionate measure to begin with.
> We know users will rarely visit the site so the Client(s) will get a banner soon too.
The new release of Neo Store (published today) already has it. And our website has it as well: izzyondroid.org/
What @crazyeddie is trying to say: standing up for openness, freedom, and the right to choose your own tools only makes sense in a society where openness, freedom, rights or even rational discourse still have any meaning at all. The US is probably no longer such a society.
@Doune floss.social/@fdroidorg/116119…
@olberger The petition is just another initiative.We encourage everyone to contact their local representative, using the country links: keepandroidopen.org
Keep Android Open
Advocating for Android as a free, open platform for everyone to build apps on.keepandroidopen.org
No one *wanted* to see what Google was up to. I.e. autoredirects in G Maps, Youtube playback failures were ramped up to unusability. This is no surprise.
Who actually didn‘t see that was already living inside G-defined boundaries, i.E. having a G account, using Youtube via G-controlled browser, using Maps via G app, …
Remains a mystery to me why people use a OS/browser made by the major advertising predator, known mainly for working against humans.
Here's the direct link to the petition: change.org/p/stop-google-from-…
🖖!
Do I understand correctly, that Google free Android is not directly affected by this policy?
But the majority of the userbase is affected, so an app developer would loose nearly the complete userbase and this would result in many developers giving up, destroying the app market.
And this in turn will affect Google free Android.
Please elaborate, if I misunderstood!
@blackoverflow Yes, if you're tech-savvy you'll figure a good device to flash your favorite custom Android distro that favors user freedom.
But the other 3.9 billion stock users... they are at the mercy of Google, if you want to recommend them a good app from #FDroid they are blocked.
Leif Samuelsson reshared this.
Institutioneel racisme:
Omwonenden van AZC krijgen tot 1.000 euro voor preventieve maatregelen tegen inbraak.
#Lochem/ wethouder Rijsberman beweert dat dit het draagvlak voor asiel verbreedt, maar het is allicht precies omgekeerd.
Dit legitimeert juist racisme & de onware overtuiging dat asielzoekers crimineel zouden zijn.
Hoe zouden we reageren als alle buren van Joden extra geld kregen voor preventieve maatregelen tegen inbraak door Joden?
nos.nl/artikel/2602860-omwonen…
Dat geld kunnen maximaal 24 aanvragers uitgeven aan camera's, extra verlichting in de buitenruimte of sloten.NOS Nieuws
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Grymt, KaKetelmug, Jurjen Heeck 🍋, ReneDamkot, Rob van Kan🔻, Touaregtweet and joene 🏴🍉 reshared this.
Ja, zo werd het besloten en gecommuniceerd.
Zie het artikel, en de tweede post.
Zoals ik al zei: asielzoekers zijn juist MINDER crimineel dan vergelijkbare groepen Nederlanders.
Aanvulling:
Dat asielzoekers crimineler zouden zijn is volstrekte onzin. Uit onderzoek van oa het WODC (Wetenschappelijk Onderzoek- en Documentatiecentrum Ministerie van Justitie en Veiligheid) blijkt juist dat asielzoekers minder vaak verdacht worden van criminaliteit dan vergelijkbare groepen Nederlanders.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Yogthos reshared this.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •reshared this
⠵⠻⠷⠕⠭ 🍥🍉⚪🌹, Irenes (many) and quinta - Stefano Quintarelli reshared this.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Neil Brown reshared this.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Klaus Frank
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Yea, kill all anti-circumvention laws. It is time. We only implemented them because the US pressured us to do so with "tarrifs", but we now have tarrifs (as well as a quite unpredictable application of them).
So middle finger to the US and undo all anti-circumvention laws.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •ftm
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to ftm • • •@ftm Murena and iodé relentlessly spread false claims about GrapheneOS and our team. That includes personall targeting our team with absolutely vile bullying and harassment.
Here's the founder and CEO of /e/ and Murena linking to content from a neo-nazi conspiracy site targeting our founder with blatant fabrications including links to harassment content from Kiwi Farms users:
archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO
Volla is fully aware of all this but works closely with these groups.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •DekOfTheYautja
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Daniël de Kok
in reply to ftm • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to Daniël de Kok • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •reshared this
MaryMarasKittenBakery and Karl Voit reshared this.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GeoRg
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GeoRg • • •tuxpingu
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to tuxpingu • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •@Pingitux Here's the founder and CEO of /e/ and Murena linking to harassment content from a neo-nazi conspiracy site targeting our founder with fabrications:
archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO
Their founder and CEO has regularly engaged in vile personal attacks on our including spreading harassment content directly from Kiwi Farms.
Debunking lies about GrapheneOS and our team along with providing accurate information countering their false marketing isn't what you claim it is.
tuxpingu
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to tuxpingu • • •tuxpingu
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •tuxpingu
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to tuxpingu • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •@Pingitux Here's the founder and CEO of /e/ and Murena linking to harassment content from a neo-nazi conspiracy site targeting our founder with fabrications:
archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO
Their founder and CEO has regularly engaged in vile personal attacks on our including spreading harassment content directly from Kiwi Farms.
Debunking lies about GrapheneOS and our team along with providing accurate information countering their false marketing isn't what you claim it is.
tuxpingu
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to tuxpingu • • •Phobos
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Any sort of regulation by governments would, inevitably, be in favor of things like the Integrity API; not against it.
I am convinced we *will* see proposals for regulations favoring exactly this in at most a year or two.
eduX
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •people who are buying these phone execute a form of digital self-imprisoning.
Why are these walled gardens so attractive?
dristor
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to dristor • • •Paul_stilgar
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •@dristor
Is it me or grapheneos is only supporters on google pixel models ?
If yes why should we give money to google ?
#grapheneos #android
Alexia
in reply to dristor • • •android_translation_layer / Android Translation Layer · GitLab
GitLabTill Kleisli
in reply to dristor • • •AppSupport - The Privacy Respecting European OS and AI Solution Provider
Joona Petrell (The Privacy Respecting European OS and AI Solution Provider)Pilsnerd
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Eskuero
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •sounds like they are just trying to ride the wave of Europe trying to break free of their reliance on american digital companies, which I completely agree, to grab power for themselves, which is still shitty and nothing to celebrate.
Thankfully my bank's app still works fine with gos and they also allow full web access anyway
GrapheneOS reshared this.
zivi the "glowiest glowie to ever glow"
in reply to Eskuero • • •@eskuero
torment nexus
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Seirdy reshared this.
Xtreix
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •🌸 lumi-nhac
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •what the fuck. that is absolutely horrifying
remote attestation is a technology that has no good uses. it's just drm
everyone should have the freedom to run whatever they want on their own devices. this freedom should never be taken away and it should be enshrined in law that it can never be taken away
someone else should not be able to decide whether my device is "secure" enough for their purposes. this is reverse security. the os needs to boot securely and the attestation chain should go upwards, with each stage verifying the ones on top of it. not this opposite world bullshit
GrapheneOS
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •🌸 lumi-nhac
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •does this mean, if i build grapheneos myself and flash it on my device, i could still run all these applications?
and i mean without contacting any third party or anything like that
edit: woops. replied to the wrong post. was meaning to reply to the latest one. sorry
GrapheneOS
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •🌸 lumi-nhac
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •i think it is fundamentally wrong that the app gets to decide what it runs on. it should not have this authority as it is completely backwards
if i wanted to run the most insecure system, i should still be able to run whatever apps i want, as long as all the apis are implemented
of course i don't want to run an insecure system. but it's my device so i should be able to do whatever i want
GrapheneOS
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •🌸 lumi-nhac
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •i think i might be confused as to what the difference between root-based and pinning-based attestation is
is the one allowlisting the app or the system?
GrapheneOS
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •@lumi Root-based attestation is done by verifying certificates up to a root of trust which is a Google certificate authority for Google Mobile Services devices. The Android hardware attestation API is in fact not inherently biased towards Google itself but rather their documentation and open source sample libraries hard-wire their roots as the only ones which should be checked.
Android supports apps generating attest keys in the hardware keystore to use for signing attestations instead.
GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •🌸 lumi-nhac
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •oh! that makes sense then. so the app is checking that the system it initially verified on has the same trust as the system it is on right now
i still don't think it's the app's job to do this, but if people really want this, then heh, i don't really care
GrapheneOS
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •🌸 lumi-nhac
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •🌸 lumi-nhac
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to 🌸 lumi-nhac • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •firedragon
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •The Nostr based app store called "Zapstore" has already solved this problem. Zapstore empowers developers to sign and release apps over the Nostr protocol without needing to get permission from any app store or from any governnent or any other entity.
The Zapstore already has most of the useful F-Droid apps, and anyone can release more apps.
Zapstore.dev
fox
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to fox • • •fox
in reply to fox • • •GrapheneOS
in reply to fox • • •Bebef 🦦🇪🇺🏴☠️🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚙🐼🥦🚩🏴
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •The same stuff that you need attestation in a phone for usually can be done using just a computer with a web browser. No attestation needed.
The only thing that I can think of that requires this attention and integrity stuff is anything shady that you want nobody to look at. 🤔
And device ecosystem extortion, of course.
GrapheneOS
in reply to Bebef 🦦🇪🇺🏴☠️🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚙🐼🥦🚩🏴 • • •Isarblues
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •I know what you think of Murena and /e/OS. I know that you prefer hardware attestation for good reasons and reject Google's policy regarding the Play Integrity API. And I know that most banking apps work on GrapheneOS - I myself have been using GrapheneOS with a banking app for many years. But I wonder what to do if more and more app manufacturers get serious and make their apps installable exclusively via Play Integrity API. 1/3
Isarblues
in reply to Isarblues • • •Wouldn't it then make sense or be helpful to have something like Unified Attestation as an alternative, even if there are many things to criticize about it? If the only option for me at some point were to have to use stock Android, then I (and many others too) would have a real problem. And it could be that Unified Attestation is then the only usable alternative, even if it's not perfect. 2/3
Isarblues
in reply to Isarblues • • •Thats why i was asking and I'm specifically interested in what, from your point of view, speaks against the Unified Attestation approach from a technical (not political) perspective. And whether Unified Attestation could also be used with GrapheneOS.
I also think it would be desirable for the EU to intervene with regulations. But it won't do that; the EU won't do anything against Google's will, and it won't mess with the MAGA regime. We shouldn't wait for that to happen. 3
GrapheneOS
in reply to Isarblues • • •Isarblues
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •Once again: I am aware that you have good reasons for not liking /e/OS etc.
And I am NOT defending /e/OS etc. here.
My question was what technical (not political) arguments there are against Unified Attestation, so that it could be used if necessary, if at some point there are perhaps no better alternatives. And whether I could then also use it on GrapheneOS, so that I don't have to switch to stock Android.
GrapheneOS
in reply to Isarblues • • •Isarblues
in reply to GrapheneOS • • •> "No, your understanding is not correct."
Did you even read my post?
> "Apps shouldn't be enforcing using only specific operating systems. They're welcome to warn people about having an insecure OS but shouldn't be ban users from using what they want to use."
Yes, they shouldn't. But what if they do nevertheless? That was my question. What is your suggestion if this scenario occurs?