I wish Manyverse would take off - manyver.se/ - 100% decentralized social network based on scuttlebutt.
After I release TROM II I will try, little by little, to fully migrate to these decentralized platforms like Scuttlebutt and Tox for messaging. We really need that and not servers and centralization.
The Fediverse and Matrix, are great for now. But they are what I like to call as decentralized centralization. Several servers instead of 1. And only a few have most of the users, thus have immense control over the entire network.
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Tio
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Tio
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Rokosun
in reply to Tio • • •@aral @tychosoft
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Rokosun
in reply to Rokosun • •There are also some practical issues with the way scuttlebutt works. In it everyone has to store everyone else's data on their device, this can take up a lot of storage space, but it also means that there's no reliable way for you to delete or edit your message, something which I think is an essential feature these days. It'd be a lot better if only you store your data in your own device and also sync it with your current home server (so that others can view your posts when you're offline). @Twann :artix: :nonbinary_flag: also brought up an important point, all of these p2p apps should at least give us an option to use a... show more
There are also some practical issues with the way scuttlebutt works. In it everyone has to store everyone else's data on their device, this can take up a lot of storage space, but it also means that there's no reliable way for you to delete or edit your message, something which I think is an essential feature these days. It'd be a lot better if only you store your data in your own device and also sync it with your current home server (so that others can view your posts when you're offline). @Twann :artix: :nonbinary_flag: also brought up an important point, all of these p2p apps should at least give us an option to use a proxy/VPN to prevent leaking our IP address to everyone we connect with. Briar messenger solves this issue by using Tor, but if we build an entire social network on top of Tor then it'll quickly overload the Tor servers which are run by volunteers. So its a bad idea to use Tor in this case, if we want maybe we could give users an option to connect via i2p which is like a peer to peer alternative to Tor, but i2p is usually very slow so I think most users would still prefer proxies/VPNs.
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Aral Balkan
in reply to Tio • • •Interestingly, my first stab at a decentralised platform (Heartbeat) used Syncthing under the hood:
youtube.com/watch?v=kbfvEBfHO-…
(Apparently Mastodon embeds do not obey the time offset setting – CC @Gargron – so please either click on the link or manually forward to ~22m55s for the relevant bit. Unless you want to watch the whole talk, that is, which is also perfectly fine by me.) :P
@tychosoft
Aral Balkan – Privacy, Data, Democracy | The Conference 2015
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Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Tio likes this.
Tio
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Tio
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Tio
in reply to Aral Balkan • •Stephen Castro-Starkey
in reply to Tio • • •Rokosun
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •@tio @tychosoft @Gargron
Aral Balkan
in reply to Rokosun • • •Thanks, I thought so too at the time :) But we also needed to integrate it more closely than just running it as a separate process and Jakob was initially involved so I thought we could do that but he decided he wanted to concentrate on Syncthing alone (fair enough) so we never managed to move beyond a certain point. The experience taught me a lot about having control over your core tech & my eventual disillusionment with Apple paved the way for the small web work.
@tio @tychosoft
Rokosun
in reply to Tio • •Yeah, but if you sync your social media posts via bittorrent across millions of peers then you won't be able to edit or delete your post, we need the opposite of this, to keep your posts in your own device and maybe also a server of your choosing (so that people can access your posts when you're offline). Bittorrent is good for sharing media, but won't work well for a social media.
Tio
in reply to Aral Balkan • •Really interesting presentation and you are very good at making these presentations very fun to watch. I was pleasantly surprised by how you showcased the interface for Heardbeat. Unique. And your analogy with the bullshit tree is so to the point and funny. I loved it. I made a simialr analogy in my book The Origin of Most Problems where I argued actually that we cannot throw seeds on an infertile soil and expect good things to grow out of it. You need a proper soil to plant seeds and I describe how that "soil" should look like. Funny enough I think it combines very well with your analogy because in order for us to plant a new sort of tree we need to have the conditions for it, like support to develop such alternative platforms and programs. Else the seed cannot grow into a tree.
In any case, you are one of the few that I follow and am curious what you are doing and what your input is when it comes to technology. You seem to have been active for very long, and after I
... show moreReally interesting presentation and you are very good at making these presentations very fun to watch. I was pleasantly surprised by how you showcased the interface for Heardbeat. Unique. And your analogy with the bullshit tree is so to the point and funny. I loved it. I made a simialr analogy in my book The Origin of Most Problems where I argued actually that we cannot throw seeds on an infertile soil and expect good things to grow out of it. You need a proper soil to plant seeds and I describe how that "soil" should look like. Funny enough I think it combines very well with your analogy because in order for us to plant a new sort of tree we need to have the conditions for it, like support to develop such alternative platforms and programs. Else the seed cannot grow into a tree.
In any case, you are one of the few that I follow and am curious what you are doing and what your input is when it comes to technology. You seem to have been active for very long, and after I release the documentary am working on now I'd like to learn more about your work and invite you for a conversation when we reboot our podcast.
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Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •Rokosun likes this.
Rokosun
in reply to Tio • •Peer to peer websites using bittorrent, that sounds like a cool idea! 😃
Aral Balkan
in reply to Tio • • •Thanks + ditto, very interested in your approach and work. And I have no idea how you manage to be so prolific but I’m glad you are.
Happy to chat anytime :)
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Alexandre Oliva (moved to @lxo@gnusocial.jp)
in reply to Tio • • •server-based services, even when decentralized as in federated, are vulnerable to recentralization. that's why I prefer truly distributed, P2P systems.
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CyberSpook
in reply to Alexandre Oliva (moved to @lxo@gnusocial.jp) • • •@tio
Friend-to-friend - Wikipedia
wikiless.northboot.xyzCyberSpook
in reply to CyberSpook • • •@tio
Alexandre Oliva (moved to @lxo@gnusocial.jp)
in reply to CyberSpook • • •yeah, p2p e2e crypto seems to have been captured term-by-term
F2F works for social media contexts, but I'd like to have P2P rather than client/server as a software architecture core design principle, for many more contexts, to try and recover (conquer?) the notion of cloud as a user-beneficial rather than user-exploitative concept.
https://www.fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/draft/decent-computing.en.html
vs
https://www.fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/pub/wwworst-app-store.en.html
::[FSFLA]:: Architecting Software for Freedom in Networked Services
www.fsfla.orgTio
in reply to CyberSpook • •CyberSpook
in reply to Tio • • •@lxo
Tio
in reply to CyberSpook • •