social.trom.tf | Tio @ social.trom.tf

Tio

tio@social.trom.tf

A bunch of atoms that are curious about the world, but furious about the society. We should help all humans to have a decent life without any strings attached, so that we can understand us, the atoms, and the rest of the universe. And create a smarter and saner society.

Since 2005 I make documentaries, write books, and enable many trade-free platforms for everyone.

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@tio:matrix.trom.tf

https://www.tiotrom.com/

Tio

1 year ago •

Tio
1 year ago •

I wish Manyverse would take off - https://www.manyver.se/ - 100% decentralized social network based on scuttlebutt.

After I release TROM II I will try, little by little, to fully migrate to these decentralized platforms like Scuttlebutt and Tox for messaging. We really need that and not servers and centralization.

The Fediverse and Matrix, are great for now. But they are what I like to call as decentralized centralization. Several servers instead of 1. And only a few have most of the users, thus have immense control over the entire network.

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Tio

Unknown parent • 1 year ago •

Yes I use Syncthing a lot. It is my main file sharing tool. I also use Bittorrent a lot for al of my media needs. Tox seems to be one great network for messaging that I will try to switch over to maybe next year.

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Tio

Unknown parent • 1 year ago •

I do not know the details

moving to: @twann@tech.lgbt likes this.

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago • •

Messengers like Tox doesn't require you to join a server and you can start connecting with friends right away, but when I installed Manyverse on my phone its asking me to join a room/pub server to connect with people. I think a truly decentralized p2p app should at least allow us to connect directly with friends, like how Tox does it, no need to go and find a server for yourself. Having servers in the network is not a big issue, but we shouldn't be completely reliant on it.
@aral @tychosoft

@Aral Balkan

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Rokosun

in reply to Rokosun • 1 year ago from Fedilab •

@ar.al🌻 @David Sugar @Tio
There are also some practical issues with the way scuttlebutt works. In it everyone has to store everyone else's data on their device, this can take up a lot of storage space, but it also means that there's no reliable way for you to delete or edit your message, something which I think is an essential feature these days. It'd be a lot better if only you store your data in your own device and also sync it with your current home server (so that others can view your posts when you're offline). @Twann :artix: :nonbinary_flag: also brought up an important point, all of these p2p apps should at least give us an option to use a... show more

@Tio @Aral Balkan @moving to: @twann@tech.lgbt

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Aral Balkan

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago • •

Interestingly, my first stab at a decentralised platform (Heartbeat) used Syncthing under the hood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbfvEBfHO-M#t=22m55s

(Apparently Mastodon embeds do not obey the time offset setting – CC @Gargron – so please either click on the link or manually forward to ~22m55s for the relevant bit. Unless you want to watch the whole talk, that is, which is also perfectly fine by me.) 😛

@tychosoft

Aral Balkan – Privacy, Data, Democracy | The Conference 2015

"We need to move beyond the Silicon Valley model." Aral Balkan is the founder and lead designer of Ind.ie, a social enterprise creating independent alternati...

^YouTube

@Eugen Rochko

This entry was edited (1 year ago)

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Aral Balkan

in reply to Aral Balkan • 1 year ago • •

(Apologies for the YouTube link.)

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun • 1 year ago •

100%! This was my main criticism of the scuttlebutt project that you have to join these "pubs". It is better than how the fediverse works but it will still concentrate power into big pubs that can refuse you if the admin wishes to.

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun • 1 year ago •

Am sure we could fins solutions for these issues. We can sync pentabytes of data via the bittorrent network and sync them across millions of peers.

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Tio

in reply to Aral Balkan • 1 year ago •

Will have a look sounds interesting!

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Stephen Castro-Starkey

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago • •

I also wish these kinds of things would take off. Part of me wants it to be easy for all of my existing friends to join up, and another part wants to make new friends of the sort who would be interested in doing the work to make this stuff work. Quite the tension!

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Rokosun

in reply to Aral Balkan • 1 year ago • •

A social network that uses Syncthing under the hood, what an awesome idea! And I also really appreciate the way you showcased the importance of accessibility, very good presentation.
@tio @tychosoft @Gargron

@Tio @Eugen Rochko

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Aral Balkan

in reply to Rokosun • 1 year ago • •

Thanks, I thought so too at the time 😀 But we also needed to integrate it more closely than just running it as a separate process and Jakob was initially involved so I thought we could do that but he decided he wanted to concentrate on Syncthing alone (fair enough) so we never managed to move beyond a certain point. The experience taught me a lot about having control over your core tech & my eventual disillusionment with Apple paved the way for the small web work.

@tio @tychosoft

@Tio

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago from Fedilab •

@Tio
Yeah, but if you sync your social media posts via bittorrent across millions of peers then you won't be able to edit or delete your post, we need the opposite of this, to keep your posts in your own device and maybe also a server of your choosing (so that people can access your posts when you're offline). Bittorrent is good for sharing media, but won't work well for a social media.

@Tio

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Tio

in reply to Aral Balkan • 1 year ago •

Really interesting presentation and you are very good at making these presentations very fun to watch. I was pleasantly surprised by how you showcased the interface for Heardbeat. Unique. And your analogy with the bullshit tree is so to the point and funny. I loved it. I made a simialr analogy in my book The Origin of Most Problems where I argued actually that we cannot throw seeds on an infertile soil and expect good things to grow out of it. You need a proper soil to plant seeds and I describe how that "soil" should look like. Funny enough I think it combines very well with your analogy because in order for us to plant a new sort of tree we need to have the conditions for it, like support to develop such alternative platforms and programs. Else the seed cannot grow into a tree.

In any case, you are one of the few that I follow and am curious what you are doing and what your input is when it comes to technology. You seem to have been active for very long, and after I re... show more

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun • 1 year ago •

I am quite sure bittorrent and the new torrent files are now editable by the "owner" of them. You can look it up but am pretty sure that's the new way and works. Plus you have something like the DAT network that was experimental in this regards and worked like that with edits being pushed by the owner of files. Basically they showcased you can have dynamic websites that are fully p2p.

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago from Fedilab •

@Tio
Peer to peer websites using bittorrent, that sounds like a cool idea! 😃

@Tio

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Aral Balkan

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago • •

Thanks + ditto, very interested in your approach and work. And I have no idea how you manage to be so prolific but I’m glad you are.

Happy to chat anytime 😀

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Alexandre Oliva

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago • •

+1
server-based services, even when decentralized as in federated, are vulnerable to recentralization. that's why I prefer truly distributed, P2P systems.

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CyberSpook

in reply to Alexandre Oliva • 1 year ago • •

In my experience with talking to people, P2P is a bit confusing. They either confuse it for client-queue-client or think of something like BitTorrent or perhaps I2P. I think F2F is a more precise term that describes a very specific type of P2P: https://wikiless.northboot.xyz/wiki/Friend-to-friend?lang=en
@tio

Friend-to-friend - Wikipedia

^{wikiless.northboot.xyz}

@Tio

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CyberSpook

in reply to CyberSpook • 1 year ago • •

Also, it really does look to me that decentralization is the same kind of buzzword as "cloud computing" nowadays, grouping together F2F, BitTorrent, federation, blockchain and Web3 (which is a bunch of closed-off prisons built on proprietary technology). It's almost as if these terms are deliberately used to muddy the waters.
@tio

@Tio

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Alexandre Oliva

in reply to CyberSpook • 1 year ago • •

yeah, p2p e2e crypto seems to have been captured term-by-term 🙁

F2F works for social media contexts, but I'd like to have P2P rather than client/server as a software architecture core design principle, for many more contexts, to try and recover (conquer?) the notion of cloud as a user-beneficial rather than user-exploitative concept.

https://www.fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/draft/decent-computing.en.html
vs
https://www.fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/pub/wwworst-app-store.en.html

::[FSFLA]:: Architecting Software for Freedom in Networked Services

^{www.fsfla.org}

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Tio

in reply to CyberSpook • 1 year ago •

First time I hear of Friend to Friend....interesting. I tested Retroshare a lot in the past and I wanted to move all of my projects' work there but never really worked well for me. I think it is not maintained in some time now...a shame...

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CyberSpook

in reply to Tio • 1 year ago • •

I think Retroshare and Scuttlebutt are fairly similar, Manyverse is just a client for Scuttlebutt. Similar to how Mastodon is the server back-end for accessing the Fediverse.
@lxo

@Alexandre Oliva

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Tio

in reply to CyberSpook • 1 year ago •

Yes I know, maybe I gave the wrong impression that Manyverse is a network while in fact it is a client for the scuttlebutt network. Same as Mastodon is for the fediverse.

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