I see there is a blocklist for Peertube instances peertube_isolation.frama.io/ - anyone who has a Peertube instance can install a plugin that will make sure it defederates their own instance from the ones on that "ongoing" list.
I am still not liking this attitude/approach. We have a Peertube instance at videos.trom.tf - we have our own rules such as we only accept videos that are about science/nature/tech in english. We only promote the content we want on our Peertube, regardless if it is local or remote. We have that power thanks to the great tools that Peertube has for admins.
Now...it is beyond me why I would want to stop the users from videos.trom.tf to connect with users from other remote instances. If they like watching the so called "right wing" (whatever that means) videos, it is their life. Let them do that. Those videos are not on our instance.
Stop treating people like little children. Sure, manage your own home and let in the people you like, but the moment you tell your guests who they are allowed to call from your phone, you become a little dictator that will expand its little powers in more and more outrageous ways. Why do you care who your guests call? It is their own personal life. Have some respect for that.
I am a big fan of curating your own instance, and I am 100% against defederating with other instances. There are better way of dealing with this. Also, pushing these "bad actors" into a corner you amplify their echo chamber. Not smart.
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in reply to Tio • •like this
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in reply to Tio • •@Tio
Yeah, Luke smith might say some stupid things at times, but he's good at teaching you about linux, I've learned a lot from him. I totally understand why some admins don't want his videos showing up on their instance, and AFAIK you can prevent that in peertube, but if a user manually searches for the channel and decides to subscribe then you shouldn't interfere and block them. At the end of the day, the whole point of fedi is that you could follow anyone from any instance, if that feature is broken then fedi is just like any other social media.
Also, in my opinion, if admins block out all the right wing instances then all that does is to make sure that these people never get exposed to any left wing ideas and change their views. You cannot make any kind of social change without interacting with people who disagree with you, or else you're just preaching to the choir.
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Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •Yeah it is easy to make your peertube only show the videos you want, from the instances you follow and such. Even disable the global search so people can't even search for any other videos but the ones that you have locally. So you have total control. But if I am a user on your instance and wanna subscribe to luke-the-right-wing-guy, you should not interfere with that. Because if you do, as admin, then you become a curator of what people should or should not watch. Plus you ruin the idea behind the fediverse.
But it seems people are not thinking long term at all over here....
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Rokosun
in reply to Tio • •Actually I know there are some people who's thinking about the long term consequences of defederation and is trying to find a solution to this problem. I haven't looked much into it but they're working on this project ufoi.org/ which aims to form a community of instances that agree to federate with each other, its not perfect but its much better than the current way of doing things which is not very transparent. FYI, this is not like a closed off group, they promote openness and decentralization, you'll get the gist once you take a look at what they're proposing. I first heard about this project from @admitsWrongIfProven and @🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱, they seem to be very open minded and transparent about everything which I really appreciate.
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Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Unknown parent • • •As you point out the issue isnt about defederation at all, its about the gossip, manipulation, and lies that results in uninformed defederation.
You pointed out one example already, where a group of people with the clear intent to spread rumors without any evidence were able to get QOTO removed from the official list, but it goes much deeper than that. That same misinformation has gotten quite a few servers defamed for things that never happened.
The reason, among other things, is that when an instance hears a rumor they defederate and stic those rumors in the "Reasons" column with no transparency or evidence, others pick up on this, rinse repeat. They have used some pretty nasty tactics to make this more prolific too. For example they have hordes of single user instances that defederate then maintain lists that list instances based on how many instances defederate them. So they are able to say "look this instance is in the top 10 most defederated" but leave out the fact that they are counting single user instances and in fact they arent really very defederated at all.
... show moreAs you point out the issue isnt about defederation at all, its about the gossip, manipulation, and lies that results in uninformed defederation.
You pointed out one example already, where a group of people with the clear intent to spread rumors without any evidence were able to get QOTO removed from the official list, but it goes much deeper than that. That same misinformation has gotten quite a few servers defamed for things that never happened.
The reason, among other things, is that when an instance hears a rumor they defederate and stic those rumors in the "Reasons" column with no transparency or evidence, others pick up on this, rinse repeat. They have used some pretty nasty tactics to make this more prolific too. For example they have hordes of single user instances that defederate then maintain lists that list instances based on how many instances defederate them. So they are able to say "look this instance is in the top 10 most defederated" but leave out the fact that they are counting single user instances and in fact they arent really very defederated at all.
What is needed less than the collaboration between instances the UFoI provides is the **transparency** on why defederation takes place with evidence and a chance for the other side to speak their piece. This way defederation can be informed.
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in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 • •@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 @Tio @admitsWrongIfProven
Say if I joined an instance and my friend joined another, if one of our instances block the other then we can't communicate anymore, this is a big problem with defederation. I can of course ask my friends to join the same instance I'm on, but this will lead to centralization which is bad for fedi. This is where #UFoI comes in, its a group of instances that I know for sure will be federated with each other, so I can just ask my friends to join one of the instances listed there.
And the transparency bit is something I really appreciate, I know there are some bad actors on fedi that engage in slandering and false accusations without any evidence backing their claims, so I hope #UFoI can solve these issues.
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in reply to Rokosun • • •Yea, without UFoI the only way you can garuntee you and your friends all communicate is if you all join free speech servers (servers that dont defederate from anyone).
The nice thing about UFoI is it solves the problem while still allowing instance admins to defederate from bad actors.
@tio @admitsWrongIfProven
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in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 • •@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 @Tio @admitsWrongIfProven
From what I understand, #UFoI doesn't say anything about how an instance should defederate and it is left up to the individual instances to decide for themselves, just that they should keep the federation open for other #UFoI members, right?
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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
in reply to Rokosun • • •Thats more or less accurate. Outside of the UFoI instances can choose how they federate. Inside the UFoI they should federate.
If an instance in the UFoI shows itself to be a bad actor and worthy of defederation then there is a transparent process centered around due process that is used to eject a bad actor instance from the UFoI at which point its members can decide to defederate if they wish to.
@tio @admitsWrongIfProven
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in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 • •@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 @Tio @admitsWrongIfProven
Yeah, so far this sounds like a much better approach than the current way of doing things which is not transparent at all.
🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
in reply to Rokosun • • •Let your instance admin know your opinion and see if he might consider joining then.
@tio @admitsWrongIfProven
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Soy_Magnus
in reply to 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 • • •Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •Wait until your instance from that select group may not be on par with the rest and they kick you out. I don't like when they make these little groups of friends. This is entirely different from what I first thought the fediverse is. The fact that you have to create such groups tells me that the fediverse is a bunch of facebooks and twitters and they use their power (many times the user count) to bully the other small instances. The fediverse should have been about a protocol that allows any instance to communicate with any other. The moment instances stop federating with other instances, this protocol is censored, broken, incomplete, nontransparent. And a mess in general.
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in reply to Tio • •@Tio @🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 @admitsWrongIfProven
I know, I'm now realizing that fediverse is not decentralized enough to make a real difference. We're now talking about instance admins fighting each other over disagreements, but wait until corporations begin to pour money into it and create instances of their own, that's when this power difference becomes obvious and by then it'll be too late.
Once a better p2p social network becomes viable then I'll be among the first to jump ship, we need to put power back in the hands of individual users, not a small number of admins or corporate entities who're capable of running massive servers.
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