To meet people who think Putin and what he does in Ukraine is ok, or to say that Trump is a good choice for the USA, is quite a shocking experience. Almost like seeing Bigfoot. It is one thing to hear about it, another thing to see it.
It is astonishing to me how some people can be so idiotic and brainwashed. Unbelievable.
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Joshua M 🇦🇺
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Joshua M 🇦🇺 • •I find this opinion quite astonishing considering it is Putin and Russia who decided to invade Ukraine. They had 0 reasons to send hundreds of thousands of soldiers and their tanks into Ukraine's territory to kill people.
So Ukraine did not start any war. The "west" did not start it either. It is Putin. And there is no excuse for it.
EDIT: for more context see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Uk…
Joshua M 🇦🇺
in reply to Tio • • •if you have an open mind its worth reflecting on the following statement:
NATO is an anti-Russia coalition.
Its probably a good thing there's an anti-Russia coalition; but pushing to continuously expand it is directly opposite to keeping peace. In fact I would argue it is closer to 'war-mongering' than it is to 'pacifism'.
#realism #internationalrelations #pacifism #mearsheimer
Tio
in reply to Joshua M 🇦🇺 • •There is no excuse to invade Ukraine and as a result kill hundreds of thousands of people and displace millions. Russia has the most nuclear weapons no NATO will ever attack it. If they wanted to, now it was the perfect opportunity. But they did not.
No one attacks North Korea because they have half a nuclear weapon, so you cannot convince me that NATO or Ukraine ever planned to attack Russia who has thousands of them. This is a Russian excuse that makes 0 sense.
And I do not think NATO are saints, quite the opposite.
Joshua M 🇦🇺
in reply to Tio • • •I said im no putin defender. In my mind the west did actions they easily couldve conceived would prompt Russia to military action
Russia is 100% responsible for its own actions; but NATO are in my mind at least 40% to blame for causing this war to begin and for the west to continue to support war; they are responsible for every ukrainian that dies from this day forward.
The only result this war can possibly bring is ruin to Ukraine — if not a greater war in addition.
Tio
in reply to Joshua M 🇦🇺 • •This criticism I understand. But Russia's actions made any of such discussion, in my view, pointless at this time. And these discussions have the potential to give some sort of validity to Russia's actions.
Consider this: if Russia wanted to stop the war today, they could. USA, the "west", or Ukraine cannot unless they agree to give up parts of Ukraine to Russia, and agree to more such things. But Russia all they have to do is go back home. That says it all.
Joshua M 🇦🇺
in reply to Tio • • •I can tell we wont agree so ill answer your point and give you a final response and we'll call this conversation done.
If Russia went home; they would have an emboldened NATO ally at their doorstep. This is not an acceptable solution.
That said the minimum terms Russia is likely to accept is keeping all their conquested land so far which as you say is an unacceptable solution.
Ideally Ukraine or whats left needs to be a neutral nation — like it once was
Tio
in reply to Joshua M 🇦🇺 • •Maybe it is not acceptable for Russia, but that's because of the hysteria the Russian leaders have created. Because in truth Russia, due to their actions, made NATO much stronger anyway and made a new NATO neighbor, Finland. Even if Ukraine was part of NATO should not pose any threat to Russia since it is almost unimaginable that NATO would ever attack Russia. Again, if they wanted to, they would have already. Great opportunity now!
So yes, Russia going home would stop the war, no more dead people, no more displaced people, or destruction overall.
I did not say is unacceptable, I said Ukraine has something real to lose, their territory, while Russia only their pride.
... show moreMaybe it is not acceptable for Russia, but that's because of the hysteria the Russian leaders have created. Because in truth Russia, due to their actions, made NATO much stronger anyway and made a new NATO neighbor, Finland. Even if Ukraine was part of NATO should not pose any threat to Russia since it is almost unimaginable that NATO would ever attack Russia. Again, if they wanted to, they would have already. Great opportunity now!
So yes, Russia going home would stop the war, no more dead people, no more displaced people, or destruction overall.
I did not say is unacceptable, I said Ukraine has something real to lose, their territory, while Russia only their pride.
And then it got stumped over by Russia and by a crazy man like Putin who talks like Hitler about the USSR, the Russia's history, how Ukraine should not exist, about the Nazis in charge of Ukraine and so much more.
Tio
in reply to Joshua M 🇦🇺 • •By the way should be fine to have discussions around these topics. We do not have to fight or "debate". But communication is crucial, else we close ourselves into our own bubbles and then fight with each other when our views become so separate.
Find by me if you do not want to engage anymore, but I am also curious to learn if I am wrong.
Joshua M 🇦🇺
in reply to Tio • • •I think we share a philosohy there , which is why I gave you a final chance to rebut.
Exposing yourself to views you don't agree with is useful; but human connection is often key to having your opinions challenged -- and social media sucks for genuine connection.
I like to debate, but also often find with strangers I get frusrated quickly and thats not healthy for me; so if I get frustrated I try to civilly end the conversation.
Joshua M 🇦🇺
in reply to Joshua M 🇦🇺 • • •Disagreeing well is important; but requires giving face. Extraordinarily hard to do when you're annoyed or impatient.
Some may find that edifying online; I do not.
Tio
in reply to Joshua M 🇦🇺 • •Rokosun
in reply to Tio • •@Tio @Joshua M 🇦🇺
I also don't see NATO or "The west" as saints either, and I think it should be pretty clear to anyone now especially after seeing how they reacted to the war in Gaza. Makes me wonder if the reason why these countries support Ukraine is really coming from a good place to help people or they just want to advance their own political agenda. The usual story of people with power deciding to start wars and innocent people dying because of it. If you're born into a poor country that no other countries want anything from then you're fucked 'cause no one's gonna help you in times of war. Also it sucks to see how we humans are still engaging in tribal thinking, whether it be based on race, religion, or whatever..... Only people I can get behind are the volunteers working for humanitarian organizations like Doctors Without Borders
... show more@Tio @Joshua M 🇦🇺
I also don't see NATO or "The west" as saints either, and I think it should be pretty clear to anyone now especially after seeing how they reacted to the war in Gaza. Makes me wonder if the reason why these countries support Ukraine is really coming from a good place to help people or they just want to advance their own political agenda. The usual story of people with power deciding to start wars and innocent people dying because of it. If you're born into a poor country that no other countries want anything from then you're fucked 'cause no one's gonna help you in times of war. Also it sucks to see how we humans are still engaging in tribal thinking, whether it be based on race, religion, or whatever..... Only people I can get behind are the volunteers working for humanitarian organizations like Doctors Without Borders, at least they seem to be genuinely helping people in times of crisis without discrimination or any hidden agenda. But other than that fuck politicians, they all suck! Leaders like Gandhi, Martin Luther king, Nelson Mandela, etc are rare exceptions - these days I didn't think we have any good ones.
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