@Tio

Maybe if they start talking in this way, like we are humans, maybe there will be no more discrimination.

I'm not really sure if it works like that, especially considering how we did not used to talk about these issues in the past and the discrimination still existed back then. But you can also make the case that since discrimination existed therefore people must've been seeing each other differently. I feel like the language alone doesn't have much influence on people's thoughts, just because we talk a certain way doesn't mean people will behave accordingly - same with any of these so called "labels" we use. The reason why many communities had to speak out about the injustices done to them is to spread awareness about their suffering, to fight against the injustice, and to make sure we don't repeat the same mistakes. Many communities are still being persecuted to this day (like tribal people across the globe), in some places people cannot openly admit their own sexuality due to fear of social rejection and sometimes outright harassment and bullying (also can be illegal in many places). So if you live in a place where people can openly express their own identity without pushback or fear of judgement/harassment then I see it as a sign of progress and peace. There is this thing known as privilege blindness, where you'll be unable to see other people's suffering who are different from your own - I have experienced this and I think we all have at some point in our lives, it takes these marginalized groups to speak out and explain their problems for it to reach us or else we'll never know of them.

Therefore the more we talk about reality, us being humans, the more chances for us to see each other as such, and not as gay, black, white, trans, etc..

The funny thing about this is that most people feel like they have to speak out about their identity when they feel like they're not being seen as human due to having that same identity. And it's not happening at the individual level but rather at a systematic level, governments and people in power introducing bills against them and such. You can see people at protests holding signs that says "trans rights are human rights" because they want to be seen as humans but are not accepted by their society/government as such.

especially considering how we did not used to talk about these issues in the past and the discrimination still existed back then.

In the past people were even more divided into tribes, shapes, colors, etc..

I feel like the language alone doesn't have much influence on people's thoughts, just because we talk a certain way doesn't mean people will behave accordingly

Not language, but the understanding that we are all of the same species. And within that we are unique complex individuals. Remember this experiment youtu.be/1mcCLm_LwpE ? The moment you divide people based on these silly attributes, you make them hate each other.

All of the examples you gave with people being discriminated based on this and that, can be approached from the perspective I just talked about in the post. To highlight the primitiveness of why these discriminations happen, to push for more equality, and so on. Instead of making it about black people, trans, gay, whites, etc.. We are all humans so deal with human problems. There are so many "people suffering and they are not part of any group. Dont exclude them.

. You can see people at protests holding signs that says "trans rights are human rights" because they want to be seen as humans but are not accepted by their society/government as such.

And I think that is a big mistake. They want to do something good, but they separate themselves from the ones who are not "trans", etc.. If they were marching about humans being equal and no one should care how one dresses or what they are sexually attracted to, they would include all people who are suffering in that regards.

Groups create other groups, and will exclude others from their groups naturally. Terrible.

Not only they marginalize themselves by making it about trans, blacks, etc.., but reinforce these "differences" based on sex, attraction, skin color, etc. Again a terrible approach.

@Tio

All of the examples you gave with people being discriminated based on this and that, can be approached from the perspective I just talked about in the post. To highlight the primitiveness of why these discriminations happen, to push for more equality, and so on.

I understand what you're trying to explain here, and I hope we as humanity reach there eventually - I feel like our current world is just too divided to make the transition but perhaps it can given enough time..... Like I said this is an idealistic goal we should strive towards.

There are so many "people suffering and they are not part of any group. Dont exclude them.

I didn't imply excluding anyone, there are lots of injustices in the world and we have to fight against all of them, one fight doesn't take away from the other they're all important.

If they were marching about humans being equal and no one should care how one dresses or what they are sexually attracted to, they would include all people who are suffering in that regards.

I think this is truly the spirit that you see within a lot of protestors and activists, even tho the signs they hold up during a single protest may be about one specific thing that doesn't mean these people don't care about other issues. I was watching someone explain some points to take care of when organizing a protest and one of the things he said was that movements without demands become media spectacles without memory - I think this is part of the reason why people try to focus on one specific demand at a time while protesting instead of these vague ideas like equality for all, strategically these make more sense. And also the example I gave was of a slogan, these are a bit different and you gotta be kinda creative to come up with a good one - as they can't be too wordy either.

Groups create other groups, and will exclude others from their groups naturally. Terrible.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that a lot of these are not some made up groups in our head nor imposed on anyone, I feel like you think people get too much attached to these identities but in my experience it's not like that..... For example the fact that men and women exist, doesn't mean we are all very "tribal" about it and exclude each other lol 😄 I understand maybe some people can be a bit weird about these things but most people aren't like that, and I have a feeling that social media algorithms are actually the thing that's truly dividing people but I don't wanna talk about it right now.

Like I said this is an idealistic goal we should strive towards.

I feel like this sentence made sense 150 years ago. Today we have telescopes, we can see cells, DNA, and earth from above. It is time to get more Sagany on people.

I didn't imply excluding anyone, there are lots of injustices in the world and we have to fight against all of them, one fight doesn't take away from the other they're all important.

When you put yourself in an identity group you are excluding the rest. Why should I care about trans people? I am not tras... This is how many will think. But how about caring about human problems? That includes us all.

I think this is part of the reason why people try to focus on one specific demand at a time while protesting instead of these vague ideas like equality for all,

This is not at all a vague idea. You can focus on giving people a UBI. Or no discrimination at the work place in general. Or focus on decriminalizing sexual behaviors that do not harm anyone - homosexuality is still criminalized in some tribes. And so forth. We need to get our heads out of our asses and stop being so simple minded. Humans are a spectrum of behaviors and if we keep on dividing each other indirectly through such "movements" it only accentuates these divisions.

I feel like you think people get too much attached to these identities but in my experience it's not like that

My experience is totally different. Ive seen so many dogmatic people.

For example the fact that men and women exist, doesn't mean we are all very "tribal" about it and exclude each other lol

It is a problem when people are separated into these groups. Look at the islamic religion as an extreme example. But just so you can see my point. Again, we are bloody humans. Thats all. And we are complex creatures. Thats all. We have to understand these and stop with these nonsensical labels - even on fedi it is full of people screaming in their bios about being a white straight male, or a cis trans whatever, or a black robot, or what not. These have become cultish. This kind of behavior is terrible for everyone.

The "romanian" people, where I am from, were (maybe still are) treated badly in other european countries and at some point you could feel that if you said you are from romania..... Not even once I felt the need to talk about "romanians" and their problems, but rather about human problems to put all of this stupidity in context like: we are all humans, the fact that some are born in this patch of land does not say anything about them. You need to know the person behind these invented labels.

If we all had this attitude we do 2 things at once:
1. we talk about this particular issue with this particular group
2. we put it in perspective in regards to who we are as humans

So maybe we fix the local problem and make people think more globally.

If you fix the problem with romanians being discriminated against in europe, fine. But what if you at the same time make people realize the stupidity of countries and nations, and maybe vaccinate them against future discriminating acts against other "nationalities"? Thats my point.

@Tio

I mostly see people bring up these identities when they try to fight against some kind of injustice or try to spread awareness about some discrimination. I don't think people use it to define themselves as a whole, people know that they are all complex human beings with unique personalities and such - it feels kinda banal when stating the obvious. The reason why people talk about these things is for a different purpose, mostly when they are not actually being treated like humans in the first place. I will tell you what the the sad reality of our world is - the moment that these vulnerable communities stop uniting themselves to raise their voice against these injustice their discrimination will continue without obstruction. Because these people don't just live in a vacuum, for the discrimination to end like you say then all of humans have to decide not to put themselves in groups all at once - similar to how we can only end countries and borders if everyone decides to end it together and trust each other on that. So for a vulnerable community that has been discriminated against for so long, how can they trust that if they stop uniting based on their identity that the other side will do the same and start treating them as humans again? This is the dilemma people are faced with.... And even if people "stop talking about these identities" that doesn't necessarily mean the discrimination will stop - what people do matters more than what they say. And sometimes it can even happen on a subconscious level, like even if I don't consider myself as racist or whatever I can still have these subconscious biases that I won't realize unless people point it out - which often requires these communities to speak up and expose these biases.

I understand if trans, black, whites, catalans, whatever groups of people come together to try and fight against the discrimination against them. It is normal. But all I am saying is that the approach is terrible since they ride on the backs of the same division that created the discrimination in the first place.

You can address the same issues without putting yourself into these groups in this manner.

I am not aware that the discrimination against romanians faded away due to any groups of romanians screaming about "us the romanians" being discriminated against. It came from romanians integrating more into the other tribes and the other tribe members realizing we are not all that different. Plus changes in attitudes from romanians, plus more financial equality between the "romanians" and the rest, and so forth.

Loads of people into these groups without being discriminated against. Case in point: catalans. People from Catalonia. We noticed how these "catalans" became more and more cunts with foreigners including spaniards. And we had many discussions about this, since we lived there. I asked a catalan person why are they so ass tight and mean, are they discriminated against as a group and if so where....He thinks and thinks and realizes that yah they are not even discriminated against...but the anger came from an old history of oppression that today does not exist at all. Yet this "identity" of catalans persists making the relationship between humans despicable.

So yes there are wiser ways of dealing with these problems than putting yourself into a group and shouting out loud.

@Tio

I don't know much about Spain or Catalonia to say much here, but if there really is no decriminalization like you say then I agree there's no point in having these groups anymore. With such groups that don't really serve any kind of purpose I agree with you.

What I often notice is that it's the oppressors who initially creates these groups/divisions and the rest are just left to deal with that. If we take the history of racism for example then it's the white people who initially created this division when they started enslaving these so called "black people" and started oppressing them in many ways. There used to be a time when interracial marriage was considered taboo and there was segregation in schools based on skin color, we don't have that anymore because many of these black people came together and fought against this segregation - see I don't think any of the black activists at the time wanted to create their own separate "group" or whatever, instead they wanted the opposite, to destroy this division between humans created by the white people who enslaved them. And you also have people like me who supports the LGBT community even tho I'm not part of that "group", in fact everyone with a drop of humanity in them should be able to see that their cause is just and be able to support them - you can go join an LGBT protest and they'll welcome you with open arms even if you are not yourself gay or trans or whatever, your humanity is what matters not what you identity as. Here again I don't think these people actually wanted to create a group for themselves but other people created it by calling them "weird", "abnormal", "against nature", or whatever other terms get used to discriminate against them. Today we even have bills getting passed where its only purpose is to oppress trans people, it is such fucked up world we live in.

So my point here is that if we actually want these groups and divisions to go away then we should start with the oppressor. It makes more sense to talk to white people at the time and make them understand how "black people" are not different from them and are humans too, that they should treat blacks equally and get rid of this harmful divisive mindset. Because we simply can't expect to have the same conversation with black people when they were so oppressed and powerless. So in a world full of bullies and bullied I think we should start with the bullies and make them see the other person's humanity first, because we can't expect the same from the bullied as long as they still feel threatened.

From what I know the "black people" discrimination in the USA emerged from slavery. Trade. Nothing to do with the color of the skin. Just that people in Africa were forced to be slaves in America. And from there this so called "racism" emerged. This is how you understand problems and try to fix them.

The more equal people are, the less such "racism".

we don't have that anymore because many of these black people came together and fought against this segregation

I can only repeat what I said: this can be done by addressing discrimination in general, and how stupid it is to put people into primitive boxes based on color and such. And idk if you are right...if that is what stopped the discrimination.

see I don't think any of the black activists at the time wanted to create their own separate "group" or whatever,

We dont know, but naturally and without doubt, by putting yourself into a group like that you separate you from others. There are endless examples of the drawback of such things. I am sure we are exposed to very different worlds.

And you also have people like me who supports the LGBT community even tho I'm not part of that "group", in fact everyone with a drop of humanity in them should be able to see that their cause is just and be able to support them

Imagine if instead of that you would be all for respecting people`s sexual identity and behaviors, as long as they do no harm. Why just focus on one group of people? This makes the discussion about such issues simplistic and ignores other similar issues experienced by people who are not "LGBT".

Today we even have bills getting passed where its only purpose is to oppress trans people, it is such fucked up world we live in.

If there was no such group, just humans with their own personal sexual identities and preferences, perhaps such bills could not even be passed. It is terribly annoying to see these people being so attached to such "groups". It has become a cult and it divides everyone. Directly or indirectly.

I am afraid you cannot see my point. Maybe in time you will.

So my point here is that if we actually want these groups and divisions to go away then we should start with the oppressor.

In some cases you may create the oppressor just by putting yourself into a group and call yourself trans, gay, whatever. Now they have something to attack or oppress.

For example I always regarded people as people. Never heard of gay, blacks, lgbt, or any such groups where I grew up in Romania. Then after I left Romania I started to hear about these groups and all it did for me is to hate this bullshit. Because now I see people dividing into these silly groups that cannot define who they are as individuals. If there are problems, deal with the problems without creating and putting yourself into these simplistic groups.

Also when you say white people oppressed black people dont you find it that you are insulting everyone in one sentence? I am a "white man" if you look at my physical appearance, so did I oppress any "black humans"? It is ridiculous to use such primitive labels that stand for nothing. So many black slaves back in the day were sold by black people....

But I have a feeling you oversimplify this entire thing. Look into how racism evolved due to trade reasons (slavery), and so is for immigrants due to financial struggles, and so forth.

A bi tiring this convo....I feel like I am making the same points but they do not reach you and we go in circles.

@Tio

Yes I understand that there is an undercurrent of trade influencing all these problems, I just didn't wanna state the obvious and was just trying to give an example without going into too much details.

I can only repeat what I said: this can be done by addressing discrimination in general, and how stupid it is to put people into primitive boxes based on color and such. And idk if you are right...if that is what stopped the discrimination.

I think people did actually addressed the discrimination in general, and that voice usually comes from the oppressed community first because it might be harder for other people to see their suffering due to that privilege blindness like I explained before. And that is not to say it was only black people who fought against these things, it might've been a requirement at first for them to come together and make their voices heard but that doesn't mean they were the only ones - so this is where I question the assumption that they were putting themselves into boxes, were people actually doing that? It's one thing to say that black people came together as a group to fight against the injustice but it's quite a different thing to say that they were putting themselves into boxes and excluding everyone else - because if they were doing that then how come a "white guy" like Abraham Lincoln came to support them? So this shows to me that people were not actually putting themselves into boxes like you assumed it to be, I think you feel like every time we mention "black people" or something that is putting people into boxes but I say we're not - just the language we use alone can't say much about how we actually think and behave, so please focus on those things.

We dont know, but naturally and without doubt, by putting yourself into a group like that you separate you from others. There are endless examples of the drawback of such things. I am sure we are exposed to very different worlds.

Maybe we are exposed to different worlds and that would explain why we look at these things differently, for me the language alone doesn't constitute any concern but only when people actually start thinking and behaving in a certain way.

Imagine if instead of that you would be all for respecting people`s sexual identity and behaviors, as long as they do no harm.

Actually you just described my stance exactly when it comes to this matter, I don't discriminate people based on their sexual identity or whatever as long as they do no harm. For many people the phrase "I support LGBT" is a quick and concise way of saying the same thing, and actually I think the official term is something like LGBTQ+ to make sure it's inclusive of everyone and all types of sexuality without excluding anyone. Maybe focus less on the language and more on what people mean by these things, because the way I see it there is no difference in the way I think and behave from what you just described here.

In some cases you may create the oppressor just by putting yourself into a group and call yourself trans, gay, whatever. Now they have something to attack or oppress.

These things are not groups man but people's personal sexual identity and preferences, if there were no name for these then people would've created a name and then attacked them - and such discriminatory names do actually exist which might've been used before more friendly terms like "gay" and "trans" came around. These are not some made up groups but ones that actually exist man, you really think people wouldn't have discriminated against women if we simply didn't have "the group called women" ? This doesn't make any sense to me because women actually do exist, and so do gay and trans people - these are not some made up groups in people's fantasy.

Also when you say white people oppressed black people dont you find it that you are insulting everyone in one sentence? I am a "white man" if you look at my physical appearance, so did I oppress any "black humans"? It is ridiculous to use such primitive labels that stand for nothing. So many black slaves back in the day were sold by black people....

Look man I was trying to explain systematic racism in a simple way to give as an example, without going into too much details. So yeah if you wanna be technical then sure not all white people were in support of it, like the example of Abraham Lincoln I gave above, but it was a time when generally speaking the norm was for black people to be oppressed and considered inferior to white people. So yes you are technically a "white man" but do you actually discriminate? We live in a very different time as well where there's thankfully not as much racism anymore. It is like someone saying chocolate is made using child slavery (unfortunately true) and you ask them if "all chocolate" is made like that - ofc not all of it might be linked to slavery but the person was trying to make a general statement here.

But I have a feeling you oversimplify this entire thing. Look into how racism evolved due to trade reasons (slavery), and so is for immigrants due to financial struggles, and so forth.

I agree there might be some oversimplification but I only did it to keep my conversation short and to make my point real quick without delving into an entire history lesson or two lol 😄 In reality I agree there might've been many different factors at play here.

A bi tiring this convo....I feel like I am making the same points but they do not reach you and we go in circles.

I'm also kinda tried at this point so I won't go any further. It's not that your points don't reach me but I feel like there might be some confusing language here which makes us talk past each other - like we might be talking with two different scenarios in mind instead of talking about the same thing. I won't say the conversion was all for nothing tho, I was able to clarify some of my own thoughts about the matter, and perhaps I'll be able to see your point after giving it some time.....

Oh man you really stretched this one honestly. Problem is you spin around the same points and you make me explain the same things over and over. And I say that in a very friendly way.

Yes people are treated badly in this world for MANY reasons: how they look, talk, where they are from, how they dress, etc.. We use words like discrimination, racism, and so on to describe these. Of course I get it.

My point is different. I am saying that for one we should call out these situations for what they are: primitive, and second when some are trying to deal with these problems they put themselves into groups, and while this could be a good way to cope with the issue at hand, it ALSO creates unnecessary separation from the rest and puts more emphasis on this "groups thinking".

Instead the better approach is to, again, point to stupidity of these discriminatory acts, and try to see how you can change the situation from a societal perspective. Like if "white cops" arrest "black people" for no good reasons, re-educate the cops to have more understanding towards these situations, give them less power, maybe pay them better, make sure they are relaxed, etc.. Whats the point of starting a "black lives matter?".

If you are not understanding this then I am not sure I can explain it better.

Your example with the chocolate and child slaves tells me that you did not get my point. This is about how people`s identities have become boxes of simplistic tags. You also took out of context my post which was not about discrimination and oppression, it was about us seeing each other as complex beings and not fall into simplistic labels. You transformed the conversation solely about groups of people who are being hurt. The picture is bigger.

And as a side note, in terms of hate, if say some idiots hate "black people" for being darker skinned, do you really think that making this into "black lives matter" will make the idiots hate them less? I have a feeling you make them even more angry and detached from the "black people", and make even more people who were on the fence be sick of this "black lives matter". Because they feel excluded. I know Ive been. Just because of the separation from the rest. Just call it human problems and make your mission to march for being all humans so that the idiots may understand the stupidity of hating those with a darker skin. On top of that look at what made the idiots hate those people in the first place...maybe inequality? Money?...

That is the approach that I think may work better. And if I am wrong and it may not be a good approach, at least it is the reality by calling this discrimination primitive and pointing out how complex we are. No more simple tags.

I think we can let this rest since we make the same points over and over again.

@Tio

I just wanna say that by the end of this conversation I agree with your points more than you may think. Thing is that recently I've been exploring these different approaches to making change in our society.... People coming together as a group to fight injustice is one way to do it, and while we can't blame people for coming together like this when they feel powerless I understand your point that it may put some people off to see this "group" forming. Calling out the stupidity and primitiveness of the injustice itself like you explained is another way to do it, tho I'm not sure how effective this will be. In my experience what I've seen work best is if you're able to somehow make everyone see and empathize with the actual suffering itself, this can be done through art, media, good journalism and reporting, etc - but if you succeed at bypassing that privilege blindness and actually making people empathize with others that can lead to some real changes..... And yes maybe black people or whoever might have to come together to create this media or do the journalism but the story itself is not about the group but focusing on the actual suffering of people.