@Fediverse News This is another post to demonstrate what is possible in #Hubzilla posts and how much of it, if anything, arrives on instances of other projects. It also demos the functionality of Hubzilla's NSFW app; if you've installed it, it should give you a content warning.
For those who don't know yet: Hubzilla is a fork of #Friendica, created by Friendica's own creator, Mike Macgirvin. Friendica, then named Mistpark, was launched in summer 2010, six years before #Mastodon, already as a free-as-in-free-license, open-source, decentralised, distributed, federated alternative to Facebook. Basically what Mastodon was to Twitter six years later.
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@Fediverse News This is another post to demonstrate what is possible in #Hubzilla posts and how much of it, if anything, arrives on instances of other projects. It also demos the functionality of Hubzilla's NSFW app; if you've installed it, it should give you a content warning.
For those who don't know yet: Hubzilla is a fork of #Friendica, created by Friendica's own creator, Mike Macgirvin. Friendica, then named Mistpark, was launched in summer 2010, six years before #Mastodon, already as a free-as-in-free-license, open-source, decentralised, distributed, federated alternative to Facebook. Basically what Mastodon was to Twitter six years later.
Friendica was geared right away towards macroblogging with forum functionality on top. Its capabilities were chosen accordingly, including no character limit, image embedding (with included manageable file space to upload images to) and text formatting through BBcode.
Hubzilla, then named Red, was forked off Friendica in 2012, four years before Mastodon. It was converted to a whole new protocol which Mike had conceived in 2011 with capabilities previously unseen on the #FederatedSocialWeb, now known as the #Fediverse, especially #NomadicIdentity. Otherwise, most of the features were kept the same, and even many more came on top. Hubzilla turned from a distributed social network into a nomadic social content management system.
While neither Friendica nor Hubzilla uses #ActivityPub internally as their protocol, both have built-in "translators" that enable them to connect to Mastodon and other ActivityPub-based Fediverse projects.
The main intention behind this post is to show Mastodon users in particular what Fediverse projects that aren't Mastodon are capable of. It shall also demonstrate how Mastodon cripples posts coming in from non-Mastodon instances.
Again, when Mastodon was launched, Hubzilla already had these features, and it had had them for four years already.
The Mastodon users amongst you will only see the crippled form of this post and probably wonder what I'm talking about. If you're using Mastodon through a Web browser, click on the date/the age of the post, and it'll take you to the original (as opposed to the mangled Mastodon output). For your convenience, especially that of those of you on mobile apps, I will also stitch together screenshots of this post and additionally publish it as an article.
Five images should be embedded in this post. All are stored on the file space built into my Hubzilla channel.
The #demonstration starts right below ↓ this horizontal line ↓:
Centred text.
Link to the Hubzilla website which runs on Hubzilla itself. Bold type. Italics. Bold and italics. Underline. Strikethrough.
Text in a generic sans-serif typeface. Text in a generic serif typeface. Text in a generic monospace typeface. Text in Courier. Text in Arial (if that's installed on your device). Text in Helvetica (if that's installed on your device). Text in Free Sans (if that's installed on your device). Text in Arial with Helvetica and Free Sans as fallbacks.
Very large text. Extra large text. Large text. Small text. Extra small text. Very small text. Size 12 text. Size 20 text.
Headline 1.
Headline 2.
Headline 3.
Headline 4.
Headline 5.
Headline 6.
An in-line code block.
Multiple-line
code block.
Code blocks can also highlight 20 different languages.
Red text. Blue text. Dark blue text. Teal text. Fuchsia text. Olive text. 005387[/url">]Text coloured in #[url=https://social.trom.tf/search?tag=005387]005387 (RAL 5005 signal blue). 789922[/url">]Text coloured in #[url=https://social.trom.tf/search?tag=789922]789922 (like >greentext on 4chan).
[hl=yellow]Text highlighted in yellow.[/hl] [hl=#008351]Floral white text highlighted in #008351 (RAL 6024 traffic green).[/hl]
↓ Here goes a picture of the 7-segment digit 1. Alt-text should be, "7-segment digit 1." ↑ Here goes the picture.
Jupiter Rowland wrote:
This is a self-quote.
This is a quote, too.
This is a quote, three.
This is a spoiler:Now the spoiler is open.
↓ Here goes a picture of the 7-segment digit 2. Alt-text should be, "7-segment digit 2." ↑ Here goes the picture.
↓ Here goes a table.
First table header
Second table header
Table content
More table content
Even more table content
Still more table content
↑ Here goes a table.
↓ Here goes a picture of the 7-segment digit 3. Alt-text should be, "7-segment digit 3." ↑ Here goes the picture.
Bullet-point list.
More bullet-point list.
Even more bullet-point list.
Numbered list.
More numbered list.
Even more numbered list.
Roman numbered list.
More Roman numbered list.
Even more Roman numbered list.
Minuscule Roman numbered list.
More minuscule Roman numbered list.
Even more minuscule Roman numbered list.
List with letters.
More list with letters.
Even more list with letters.
List with capital letters.
More list with capital letters.
Even more list with capital letters.
↓ Here goes a picture of the 7-segment digit 4. Alt-text should be, "7-segment digit 4." ↑ Here goes the picture.
↓ Here goes a picture of the 7-segment digit 5. Alt-text should be, "7-segment digit 5." ↑ Here goes the picture.
Special features of Hubzilla and (streams): Your name: [observer.name] Your short name: [observer.webname] Your hub: [observer.baseurl] Your profile picture, automatically embedded: [observer.photo]
Your channel, automatically embedded and clickable: [observer.url]
Overview of the decentralised Hubzilla Social Network
Watch an overview of the user features as well as admin features for the decentralised and federated Hubzilla social network. Hubzilla can be considered a worthy alternative to Facebook, and it has a unique feature for cloning its channel elsewhere to act as a live backup in case the primary hub is no longer available. It has posts, photos, events, calenders, chats, wikis, webpages, and plenty of 3rd party add-ons.
Intro: 00:00 Multiple Channels/Profiles 03:55 Privacy from Admin 05:55 Forums/Groups 06:23 Redundancy / Nomadic Identity 06:52 Main Feed Stream 10:22 Post Reactions 12:24 Profiles 15:43 Privacy Groups 17:40 Channel Management 18:40 User Settings 19:19 Hub Admin Settings 21:48 Security / Federating 25:23 Feature Settings 27:01 Add-Ons 29:19 Twitter API 33:04 Local User Directory 35:39 Friend Suggestions 36:04 Edit Friend Permissions / Filtering 36:52 Booking Events 38:40 User Apps 42:30 Photo Albums 45:25 Chat Rooms 47:10 Guest Access 48:35 Notes 49:35 Web pages 49:54 Wikis 51:51 Creating a Post (Encryption/To Twitter) 53:00 Wrap Up 58:05
@Den Hårfagre I don't know. Hubzilla doesn't have a usable mobile app.
I've written the post and my comments on Hubzilla's Web interface through Mozilla Firefox on a desktop PC running Debian GNU/Linux. Nothing mobile involved here.
I think the most important take away (at least for me) is the limited attachments Mastodon shows to their users. Content is being dropped without the user's knowledge.
#Hubzilla, #Friendica, #Misskey, #Calckey, and of course #Pixelfed, to mention a few, can attach more than four (4) images. But once it shows up in a Mastodon-powered instance, attachments 5 and up are discarded to the void.
Sadly, I can't test how it looks like in Pleroma and forks. I tried it in two Soapbox instances, the first one unfortunately is too slow (not sure what happened to that instance), and in the second instance, your post is not showing up even if searched via URL.
@Lapineige Not too shabby. I'm not sure which of the limitations have to be contributed to Akkoma itself, to Mangane or to the mobile platform.
Okay, Akkoma seems to interpret the UTF-8 in the summary as ASCII, or it doesn't expect punctuation.
Mentions and hashtags look like on Hubzilla. The title is recognised and converted; I guess it contains a link to the original, and if that's the case, that's nice.
Horizontal lines work, bold type works, italics don't, underline does, strikethrough doesn't. Typefaces don't, but I didn't really expect this to work easily everywhere, especially not on mobile devices. Text sizes and headlines don't work either.
Both types of code block work, and they're shown differently. I would have loved to demo code highlighting, but I had no reference code at hand.
Text colours and highlighting colours don't work.
The digits are surprisingly huge, they should be 40x60 or so. But they are where I've put them, only tha... show more
@Lapineige Not too shabby. I'm not sure which of the limitations have to be contributed to Akkoma itself, to Mangane or to the mobile platform.
Okay, Akkoma seems to interpret the UTF-8 in the summary as ASCII, or it doesn't expect punctuation.
Mentions and hashtags look like on Hubzilla. The title is recognised and converted; I guess it contains a link to the original, and if that's the case, that's nice.
Horizontal lines work, bold type works, italics don't, underline does, strikethrough doesn't. Typefaces don't, but I didn't really expect this to work easily everywhere, especially not on mobile devices. Text sizes and headlines don't work either.
Both types of code block work, and they're shown differently. I would have loved to demo code highlighting, but I had no reference code at hand.
Text colours and highlighting colours don't work.
The digits are surprisingly huge, they should be 40x60 or so. But they are where I've put them, only that I didn't centre them.
Quotes work including names and nesting. Spoilers are recognised, but open by default.
Again, I didn't expect tables to work, but I'm surprised to see the same huge gap on top as on Hubzilla.
All lists are converted to bullet points, but lists work.
Video embedding doesn't, but it gives you the URLs.
If the Hubzilla trickery had worked, I would have been very surprised.
On a sidenote, I am actually surprised to see your pictures in the correct order, even though they're all put above the text again. Above posts from Mastodon and MissKey, they come in reverse order. I guess another bug report is due.
for your information this is a desktop screenshot, not mobile.
I can try later with Akkoma/Pleroma default front-end.
Try the reverse should be interesting. I'm not sure Hubzilla interprets markdown formatted content from Pleroma/Akkoma/Misskey/Calckey with 100% compatibility.
@Lapineige It'd actually be interesting to see posts from other non-Mastodon instances with all officially supported BBcode/Markdown/HTML tricks in use.
If you edit a post that someone has already #boosted, they will receive a notification informing them.
I actually like it. It stops people from posting something, has it boosted, and then changes the content.
Other users can only see an "edited" tag. They can't easily see what the original content was, but you will be able to do it with the #Mastodon #API, I think.
@♾️ 스노 (雪亮 Yuki) 🔏 🌟 Thanks for your demonstration. It's also interesting to behold on Hubzilla itself because it basically reverses both your Mastodon and MissKey posts: The pictures come first in reverse order, then comes the text.
@mickdarling Yikes! Way to wipe out a big chunk of my buffer. CWs don’t work the same in all clients. In #bitlbee (a text client), we just see the CW as the 1st line, almost like a subject line, then all the content that follows automatically.
The start post as it first appears on Hubzilla. The yellow button belongs to an automatic content warning hider which was triggered by "NSFW" in the text.
Hubzilla will show this comment itself hidden behind a content warning.
Also, notice the title. You can't see anything like this on Mastodon.
This and the following screenshots were taken in Firefox on Debian GNU/Linux on a desktop computer.
The start post as it appears on Hubzilla after clicking the yellow button and thereby getting past the content warning.
What is shown additionally now is what is known as a content warning or CW on Mastodon. On Hubzilla, this very same feature has been a summary for very long posts since before Mastodon was launched.
The blue label below has to be clicked to get past the summary and see the post itself.
The start post after getting past both the content warning (not what would be a content warning on Mastodon, but the yellow button above) and the summary (which Mastodon understands as a content warning).
I've manually stitched this together in GIMP from about ten screenshots.
Way down, you'll discover a closed spoiler. The next picture will show it after having been opened.
Content warning: Hubzilla refers to this as a "summary" and not a "CW"
I really appreciate the effort you put into this. I think it helps people to understand that the Fediverse isn't Mastodon, which is I think a very healthy & important thing to understand if the fediverse is going to develop in a way that can hope to counterbalance commercial social media stacks. @fediversenews
to get rid of the huge gap above the table, bring all bbcode onto one line, without linebreaks. something like [table border=1][tr][td]text[/td][/tr][/table]
May be a "ChatBotHubzilla" (a'la ChatGPT) trained with this and other valuable articles by Jupiter Rowland can spread the benefits of Hubzilla much more efficiently than posts that streak the Fediverse night sky like meteors and often just disappear without being noticed?
Content warning: Hubzilla refers to this as a "summary" and not a "CW"
yes, Hubzilla is clearly the better product, but I fear it will share the fate of Video2000: it was clearly the better product, but VHS was more successful anyway...
Hubzilla refers to this as a "summary" and not a "CW"
Your comment (not quoted here for reference) is hilarious. There's no end to any possible development in open source social media.
You are talking about two commercial products, with ad budgets & profit interest involved. And no say whatsoever for customers using these products. All measured just in money.
Federated social media doesn't work like this. Luckily. Here you can have impact, if you act. Take that chance and use it.
@_jayrope @benny Also, keep in mind a few more things:
Video2000 was incompatible with VHS. If you wanted to use both standards, you needed recorders and tapes for both.
#Hubzilla is compatible with #Mastodon as our posts prove. You can connect to just about everyone on Mastodon while still keeping using Hubzilla.
Besides, Hubzilla isn't just fancier Mastodon. Hubzilla isn't just microblogging. If you switched from Hubzilla to Mastodon, you'd lose more than text formatting. You'd lose boatloads of features which Mastodon can't realistically hope to replace, from multiple channels on one login to articles and wikis to full and proven #NomadicIdentity.
You're so nice (to me being a HZ user/admin). BUT: Let's be fair. All of those different ideas of most probably a similar concept should coexist and interact at their best, not fight.
sure, you are right with all you say. I know Hubzilla already from times when it was Red Matrix and had my own hub several times. The last one went down when so many people fled twitter and I kept following more and more nteresting people. The server wasn't strong enough for all the traffic. Now I went to a new server and use yunohost for my online stuff, but I haven't yet figured out how to migrate my old install to the yunohost instance
another problem is: most contacts would be on Mastodon and hubzilla messages come across crippled, as you have pointed out. When I still had Hubzilla I've been called out several times for my shares which come across strangely, especially when you are used to boosts and have been told that this is all that's possible...
@Zach777 That's my server space provider's business. The last outage took 18 hrs (water in the data center, oops) Data was fine afterwards. Got to mention, that it was the first of such outages in 20 years, though. Hoster is hostforweb.com, account type is Business Pro, you'll have no root access, but terminal for HZ and a Cpanel to assist. Has a git. Sympahic Russians in upstate NY.
Neat. Although I will be self hosting with a computer in my room. How well does mirroring work? Maybe I can self host at home while mirroring non private stuff elsewhere.
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\m/ Excellent! I've yet to have any luck getting waydroid to cooperate consistently. I did have no issue doing the same/similar with anbox but it was mad slow. Maybe I need to take another stab at waydroid, it's been a few months since I last played with it.
@kynyc Comparing by function and comparing by community are both useful. Without explaining the distinction, the site as is may make more sense to a technical audience than a general audience.
I have a fediverse account but for some reason, I can not reach anyone in the world, as claimed. Nor my friends or any celebrities not named mark ruffalo.
@slowenough @kynyc It's impossible to say, "This is what this service's community is like" because the reality of federation is that each server hosts a different community.
@kynyc "the reality of federation is that each server hosts a different community"
Any intro to mastodon or fediverse which didn't communicate this would be incomplete, no? (Unless you, say, recommend and assume the community of mastodon.social and similarly-run big servers if you're talking about Mastodon.)
Either only Mastodon instances will be suggested because "Mastodon is the standard"/"Mastodon is the default"/"The Fediverse is Mastodon"/whatever, maybe actually because whoever designs something like this doesn't know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon.
Or you get some more or less hidden setting that allows you to choose an instance of another project. If you don't, you only get Mastodon. Result: still 99.99% Mastodon instances being chosen.
Either only Mastodon instances will be suggested because "Mastodon is the standard"/"Mastodon is the default"/"The Fediverse is Mastodon"/whatever, maybe actually because whoever designs something like this doesn't know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon.
Or you get some more or less hidden setting that allows you to choose an instance of another project. If you don't, you only get Mastodon. Result: still 99.99% Mastodon instances being chosen.
What should actually happen is all projects being treated equally, at least all with the same purpose. If there's an Akkoma instance or a CalcKey instance that fits you, then it should be suggested. And if someone demands quotes or text formatting, then they shouldn't get Mastodon slammed into their faces over and over and over again as if there was nothing else.
Or if someone is looking for a replacement for Facebook or Instagram, they shouldn't only get Mastodon instances to pick. The Instagram replacement in the Fediverse is Pixelfed. And the number one Facebook replacement is Friendica, and it has been that since 2010.
It is an amazingly attractive quick introduction to the Fediverse and it guides people to open Fediverse alternatives for the closed platforms that they are currently used to.
@Stefan Bohacek Mobilizon is an event planner. But that's it. It will not cover the social networking and microblogging aspects of Facebook, and I'm not sure how well it does Facebook-style discussion groups.
@paulschoe How many people remember the 90's? Back before corporate controll? I do and I remember being able connect a jabber server to a Yahoo chat service to a Google chat service to facebook chat to twitter ....
Honestly, if new users were given those five options for "Twitter-like" services, with a proper pro's/con's list of each of their features along with the information that they all can talk to each other seamlessly regardless of which one they pick, I don't think many would voluntarily pick Mastodon.
@Alexx9811 @m @mahaska Unfortunately, I do not believe that people chose on features. People choose on 3 items: 1) Hype 2) Recommendations. 3) Ease of signing up
Based on hype, I expect that BlueSky will get the largest initial growth. That despite the fact that Jack Dorsey has even said that he likes to replace 'likes' by financial endorsements (mini payments), which he calls: real commitment. This clearly shows what a wolf in sheep's clothes BlueSky is.
I think that says a lot about how Dorsey sees the platform (and how he saw Twitter): A place where celebrities / influencers provide content to consumers, not a network of peers. He's not building a social network, he's building a parasocial network.
@mnemonicoverload @mahaska @paulschoe @m Wow, that's a really excellent and powerful turn of phrase, I like that a great deal, and it really feels extremely accurate. Very well said.
I've looked at this as the difference between a social network and social Media. A network is where everything and everyone talks to each other, whereas social media tends to be a feed of dubious quality quasi-information.
One largely disseminates information from whichever person happens to have a microphone at any given moment in time to people who absorb and react to information, whereas the other is people trading or sharing information amongst themselves as a peer group.
Yes, the idea of the media (newspapers, television, movies. etc.) is typically uni-directional.
However, a network is typically multi-directional... There maybe nodes or branches in the pathway, but even the lowest leaf can communicate with along any path of the tree efficiently.
There are quite a few analegies that can be used for thiese types of structures.
Yes, well, kind of. I mean, Mastodon isn't a network. It is a social media service, one of many, in the Fediverse, which IS the network. As long as we start pitching Mastodon as its own network we are diminishing the probability of anyone trying Mastodon and not being happy, to equate that to "I am not happy in the Fediverse". Now if the reason they're not happy is because lacking features in Mastodon (which is not unlikely) it is very probable that those people will not investigate the features of other Fediverse services because
a) it has not been made clear those other services (Akkoma, CalcKey, Friendica etc) can actually communicate with Mastodon
b) people will equate moving from Twitter to Mastodon as cumbersome as moving from Mastodon to CalcKey/Akkoma/Friendica when it really is not
This is why educating people in at least the basics of federation is not a lost cause. On the flip side of that, NOT telling them about these thing... show more
Yes, well, kind of. I mean, Mastodon isn't a network. It is a social media service, one of many, in the Fediverse, which IS the network. As long as we start pitching Mastodon as its own network we are diminishing the probability of anyone trying Mastodon and not being happy, to equate that to "I am not happy in the Fediverse". Now if the reason they're not happy is because lacking features in Mastodon (which is not unlikely) it is very probable that those people will not investigate the features of other Fediverse services because
a) it has not been made clear those other services (Akkoma, CalcKey, Friendica etc) can actually communicate with Mastodon
b) people will equate moving from Twitter to Mastodon as cumbersome as moving from Mastodon to CalcKey/Akkoma/Friendica when it really is not
This is why educating people in at least the basics of federation is not a lost cause. On the flip side of that, NOT telling them about these things means they WILL make their judgement based on the least capable service in the entire Fediverse, and thus discard the whole idea of being in the Fediverse compared to BlueSky, Nostr or whatever.
I think this is a big mistake. What made FB and Twitter and Youtube cool once upon a time was that they didnt run on advertisements or charge anything.
Once they started doing that, things went downhill. I feel like this is going to turn individuals into advertisers.
Im trying to be very vocal about my opinion on this. But I dont want to come off as rude. So forgive anything that might sound harsh.
There are lots of opinions about algorithms. I might be convinced to try something minimal and open source. Say to maybe weed out spam/bots. But buy-in-large I am going to stay away from anything that rewards users for engagement.
@twizzay @mahaska @Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m I find that filters (as mastodon has) as well as the occasional block/mute/disable boosts from user is more than enough for me right now to remove any spam... I used to use reddit a lot around when I joined fedi and when I started using fedi seriously it was quite surprising to see how little I actually needed any "omniscient algorithm" to control what content I saw
@fediversenewsThe Twitter algorithm is not perfect, but it works and they’ve already open sourced part of it. Just a matter of time before someone experiments with it here, let alone whatever Blue Sky tries.
Idrc as long as there are options that don’t suck. It seems like there will probably always be instances somewhere that keep a classical, chronological feed, just because a lot of people hate algorithms.
@fediversenewsIf I had to guess, just from surface level, the main thing that Twitter is doing manually is creating topical categories, which are not very useful. They’re mostly for promoting celebrities.
What is useful are the posts it promotes from people your follows follow, and important posts from people you follow. It’s much easier to find new people through that than it is on sites without it.
I think there is probably significantly more work that goes into it than that. But I dont really know for sure either.
You might persuade me to try something like that but it would be a pretty hard bargain. I think hashtags, instances built on topics, and search queries are doing fine just the way they are at helping me fund cool people.
@Alexx9811 @m @mahaska 2/2 Based on Ease of signing up, Mastodon comes clearly behind those centralised solutions even though decentralised is what I think people really want.
That means that I put my faith in recommendations. Unfortunately, most of these only occur once people have been burned by choosing based n Hype or on Ease of signing up.
@paulschoe @m @mahaska That makes sense. I'm kind of interested in Calckey as it looks like it might have some things that look pretty cool.
I think it ultimately comes back to what's been said before, the reason Twitter and such are so popular is the plug and play nature of it.
One signs up and they can follow their friends and in cases like Twitter, celebrities and whatnot. Until that's easier anywhere else, I see Bluesky being the most popular.
I believe that in order to improve the onboarding UX, fediverse apps should not be more complicated than Bluesky. We need to empathize more at the app client level and prioritize safe defaults for new users to learn the ropes with the app, even if it means risking the preferences of long-time users
@paulschoe @beans @m @mahaska Thanks for that. I set up an account years ago, but wasn't on it a lot after the early going, so I've got a lot to learn about all of this. But I do think the Fediverse is an amazing concept and I'm very excited to learn more about all the myriad possibilities it may hold.
@beans @paulschoe @m @mahaska 100 percent agree with this. I think the average user just wants to land somewhere that they're up in two seconds and can be connected to people in some fashion. I think some current Fediverse folks are a little resentful because on the one hand they want to grow things, but they want people more committed to being a part of the community, not to have everything led by celebrities and influencers.
@Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m @mahaska I wish we could meet in the middle, right now the conversations in mastodon are amazing, this one for example. But I fear that what we have right now will perish if we sense those friends that didn’t land here or weren’t geeks in a way, start having meaningful conversations outside of the fediverse because of UX
@beans @Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m I'm about to abandon over 2K connections on Fakebook and another 2K+ on Twitterdumb. I've set the date for July 4. Been on Mastodon since November I think. They won't get here, nothing else to do. 😭😭😭
@mahaska @Alexx9811 @paulschoe @m I'm sorry, for centralized social networks theres not much we can do :/
However, there are talks of having a bridge between AT proto and ActivityPub. So, lets say the influencers go to Bluesky and a meaningful fraction of my friends too. We could have an app that fetches those posts and add them into your feed
@Alexx9811 I think the level of perceived complexity is part of it - both my spouse and I are tech types. I found it fairly easy to get up and running in about 10 minutes - one of the local Twitter folk posted he was starting up a server, and the address. Easy to sign up for me, and when that was shutting down, migration was relatively easy. My spouse, not so much. The fact it took a checklist to do the migration for me was a major obstacle for her. Not intuitive
Sorry, threw in a hand grenade and went out shopping, hehe. These are normally quite sensitive topics, and it should be recognized that the topic is one with many different subjective views.
So, just to put my previous comment in proper setting, I do have accounts on all the mentioned services. I have tested them fairly extensively. Testing services is a thing I do because I like it. Comparing features, communities, usability, UX & GUI's etc, but also comparing interaction, how they communicate etc.
I suspect most people would pick CalcKey. It looks great, has most of the features and is currently riding a (hype) wave on the back of the Misskey wave. Any day of the week I would pick CalcKey over Misskey. So is CalcKey what I use as a daily driver? No.
I personally use a combination of Akkoma and Friendica. I find them being the most feature rich, and they fill different needs in my social networking use. More importantly, both are focused on the actual content, whereas I (again, personally) find CalcKey being so focused on being "pretty" that it comes at the... show more
Sorry, threw in a hand grenade and went out shopping, hehe. These are normally quite sensitive topics, and it should be recognized that the topic is one with many different subjective views.
So, just to put my previous comment in proper setting, I do have accounts on all the mentioned services. I have tested them fairly extensively. Testing services is a thing I do because I like it. Comparing features, communities, usability, UX & GUI's etc, but also comparing interaction, how they communicate etc.
I suspect most people would pick CalcKey. It looks great, has most of the features and is currently riding a (hype) wave on the back of the Misskey wave. Any day of the week I would pick CalcKey over Misskey. So is CalcKey what I use as a daily driver? No.
I personally use a combination of Akkoma and Friendica. I find them being the most feature rich, and they fill different needs in my social networking use. More importantly, both are focused on the actual content, whereas I (again, personally) find CalcKey being so focused on being "pretty" that it comes at the cost of readability and usability. But that is MY view. Akkoma (and Pleroma) can be made very pretty too, but it still is focused on the content and the interactions. Friendica too, and it is honestly not very pretty (but then highly usable instead, which I rate as more important).
Most importantly: me saying "talk to each other seamlessly" was actually giving Mastodon more credit than it should have. Mastodon has reported bugs regarding "backfilling" and federation that are more than 6 years old, and which are still not fixed. It is doubtful they CAN be fixed.
In plain language: Mastodon does not federate in messages from users you do not follow properly. For Mastodon users they can almost be certain of that there are replies in the conversations/threads that they simply do not see. This is why profiles are "empty" when you look at them, unless you actually jump over to their actual instance. And the posts you don't see you...umm...don't see, which obviously can leave some people quite confused as they feel ignored when they try to interact and be social.
The other services (by and large) have solved this (CalcKey for example) or have it built-in from the start (Akkoma for example).
Totally agreed. What does complicates things somewhat is that Mastodon due to its dominant position has grown an ecosystem of connected apps that other systems don't really have.
So when you give new users the option to choose between the main server software options, but then also include 3rd party app support in the list, I do think people would choose Mastodon. If we compare vanilla server software, Mastodon would be last on my list. But once we factor in things like @phanpy@hachyderm.io it becomes a nobrainer option for Mastodon again for me. Not because of Mastodon, but because Phanpy is simply that good.
And yeah, I'm very much waiting until Phanpy supports other services (or the services implement masto API fully), because that'll be a real gamechanger imo.
Funny you say that, given that I see you indeed are on Calckey (for Mastodon users: most of the other Fediverse services can see what services everyone else is on).
But yes, according to the information given to me in a very similar thread regarding backfilling, several of the developers told me off for saying Calckey (and Misskey, which still don't) didn't do backfilling properly, as they had submitted fixes for that (this was a couple of months ago, end of last year if I recall correctly). I haven't had the time to test properly.
Perhaps they only meant "profile backfilling", as I've seen that feature comparison graph (which IMHO isn't complete) made by the lead dev of Calckey (so could be seen as marketing material I guess, but he seemed to have put effort in to it), listing "profile backfilling", even on Mastodon (I guess "pinned posts" are the benchmark for that).
Maybe it only backfills after following? I haven't checked the profile of a followed user. It seems to function pretty much identically to how it's been on Mastodon, at least for me. Maybe I'm just not sure what profile backfilling is, if not filling in posts from before...
also I'm pretty sure my handle having "calckey.social" gives away that I'm using calckey 😆
@m @mahaska @paulschoe Thank you for that. It's cool to hear people's thoughts.
I am naturally curious about tech, but often my reach exceeds my grasp in terms of understanding everything. I feel like I know more than a casual social media user, but I'm definitely not as well versed as many people on here who really get this stuff at a level I don't.
@m I’m trying different combinations. I have a bunch of computers, but the screens are full of work stuff, so I don’t really use them for social media. I use mobile. I’ve got CalcKey/Kimis, Friendica/Relatica and Mastodon/Ice Cubes
So far the Mastodon/Ice Cubes combo is the fastest and most generally useful, but I’m annoyed I’m missing out on long posts when I want them, and not seeing/sending emoji reactions.
Yeah, ok. But if you were me you would be annoyed by the fact you are not truly, actually, seeing all the replies from others in the threads you participate in, simply because it isn't technically possible in your chosen platform.
There is no actual reason it should be like that. It is just how it is, in your chosen platform. I couldn't take that. So I swapped for to a service that does it right. Thankfully, @MonaApp plays nicely with Akkoma, which in all honesty they all should do as Akkoma (and Pleroma) are using the Mastodon API, which means I have a good/nice app to interact with too, something that should be incentivised, whereas Ice Cubes and Ivory should be told off for not doing it right. Only then would they change.
Everything else is just buying in to their wrongness.
Them: Look at this nice thing! You: But we're not federating properly...? Them: No no, but who cares, look at how nicely I show you this! You: ...but...there are lots of people trying to talk to me, and I can't see them...and you won't let the users of services that CAN see them use your app...? Them: look at this nice thing! Shiny eh?
@m @MonaApp Ice Cubes fetches all the replies. It’s been a long time since I used the Mastodon web interface as it annoyed me too much, and that was definitely one thing that I felt was broken, along with the absence of threading (I see that’s coming in the next update). It would be nice if Ice Cubes supported some of the other platforms. I was using Mona with Friendica, but it was a bit odd. I’m hoping Relatica will more closely match the native UI.
Yeah, right. But then we are approaching what I've talked about earlier: code soup. If one app takes upon itself to sort this, in the client, the end-user expectation will vary. Wildly.
Is the solution to using Mastodon properly then to ONLY use it with Ice Cubes app? As it is you I probably don't have to play out the full scenario of possible flaws with that...? 😀
All problems should be fixed at their correct level. Everything else is "hacks" or "workarounds" which leads to unhappiness further down the line, for a multitude of reasons.
@slowenough why are you even talking about mastodon? Other than being 1st why would a user of that page choose that over the the one that sounds like a spreadsheet or any other of 5.
You state: in easy-to-understand words -- what the Fediverse is, how it works, and what to try.
All the names are gibberish and also there’s a ton of them. What to try, well sure there’s not differentiating between them and also what you try will not be similar in experience, but this is obscured.
@potungthul Bit off topic, and probably best in a language group (are there any? There should be), but it’s too late. It’s well established that all nouns can be verbed. And now prepositional adjective phrases can be nouned. You will probably be unhappy if you learnt the etymology of many words that were imported, misheard, butchered, re-engineered with local grammar and set loose to breed more words.
@feld Adding to that, it needs communities in general! And #Mastodon isn’t meant for communities, it’s for posting. How do ya get more people to embrace #Fediverse community platforms such as #Friendica and #Hubzilla?
@feldNo, it doesn’t. Nostr is one big hugbox and it sucks because they’re too unified on Bitcoin worship. AT is still far behind both and it’s been 3.5 years since they started.
It would be nice if the different platforms all agreed on things. Good for end users, if there were a wider range of mobile clients that all just worked with whichever platform you chose. I wonder if it would slow down the diversity of new or experimental features. Also, turns out bikeshed.party is blocked by my Mastodon instance, but I realised I was missing some replies.
...which goes to show that it is very difficult indeed to agree on things, when the "block everything and everyone that doesn't agree with me fully!" mob gets to rule.
@feld is one of the people contributing to the Pleroma code base and I am guessing most of the Pleroma devs then are blocked by your Mastodon instance, probably due to reasons dating years back. It obviously, severely, hampers discussion possibilities. I value Feld and his opinions a lot, I tag him in to things a lot more than he'd like (I think), so I'm happy I run my own instance where no one is auto-blocked. 😆
@Trenton Matthews @feld First step: Stop mollycoddling newbies by dragging them all to a few huge Mastodon instances and implying that Mastodon is the Fediverse.
Stop making Mastodon or even mastodon.social the frontpage of the Fediverse.
Have people know how big the Fediverse is. Have them know that there's more in the Fediverse than Mastodon, and I mean right away. Don't let them spend half a year on their huge instances in the belief that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
The longer they live with the mindset there's nothing else out there, the more they'll see all the other Fediverse projects as shoddy knock-offs of their beloved Mastodon. Or competition. Or intruders into their nice and cosy "Mastodon network" which isn't even an enclosed network.
This should also concern tech media and mass media. They have to stop talking about Mastodon as an enclose... show more
@Trenton Matthews @feld First step: Stop mollycoddling newbies by dragging them all to a few huge Mastodon instances and implying that Mastodon is the Fediverse.
Stop making Mastodon or even mastodon.social the frontpage of the Fediverse.
Have people know how big the Fediverse is. Have them know that there's more in the Fediverse than Mastodon, and I mean right away. Don't let them spend half a year on their huge instances in the belief that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
The longer they live with the mindset there's nothing else out there, the more they'll see all the other Fediverse projects as shoddy knock-offs of their beloved Mastodon. Or competition. Or intruders into their nice and cosy "Mastodon network" which isn't even an enclosed network.
This should also concern tech media and mass media. They have to stop talking about Mastodon as an enclosed network or even a monolithic, centralised website. They, too, have to treat Mastodon and everything else in the Fediverse the same.
The phenomenon is not Mastodon. The phenomenon is the Fediverse.
Oh, and I can name three active Fediverse projects that are older than Mastodon. So Mastodon wasn't the first either.
@MetalSamurai I am unhappy about the unnecessary ambiguity caused by ignoring grammar of the parts of speech. For example, the word hammer can be verb or noun, but if you take the verb, and convert that to a noun, you could mean the action of hammering, or the actual tool the hammer itself. In this case, "on board" as a verb may mean to be on board, or the action of becoming on board. Ambiguity, all because we were too lazy to say "bring on board".
@Trenton Matthews, I've seen a decent approach being used by folks creating guppe groups to unify their conversations. I don't know that discoverability of these groups is as easy as the creation of them though. Seems like it'd be quite easy to wind up with groupname, group-name, and group_name, all having the same conversations.
@eshep @Trenton Matthews Guppe seems to me like a dirty hack by someone who wanted to introduce groups/forums to Mastodon but didn't know at that point that more powerful solutions already existed (Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams)).
Group discoverability on Guppe is hit-and-miss. It depends on how popular your group is, for Guppe only lists 50 groups whereas Friendica lists all of its forums.
@Jupiter Rowland, yes, a very hacky solution, and yes, I know proper forum-like implementations exist in Friendica, they're fantastic! Equally great is Lemmy being presented in Friendica as a forum. However, being that none of those have a very wide scope of discoverability, it's virtually impossible for a common Mastodon user to find one, much less know about them to begin with. It also wouldn't surprise me to see Guppe preferred over it because other platforms are seen as ""rivals"" or ""clones"" of Mastodon, and Guppe seen as something internal to it because that's how it's been presented to them.
If only there were a way for folks to see what features exist on each platform before committing to one. Simply telling folks this≈that helps but just isn't quite enough. Nor does the "just join here cause it's what I use"' approach.
And hacky as it may be, I'm happy to see folks wanting a bit stricter conversation control have found a way to do so across the fediverse. It helps those looking for a more intimate atmosphere to find a home here.
@eshep Well, the discoverability of forums themselves is better on Friendica than on Guppe. As I've said, Guppe only lists 50 forums, Friendica lists them all.
But in order to use Friendica, you need to know it exists.
Almost all newcomers to the Fediverse spend their first three to six months "knowing" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Then they start discovering stuff that's bolted onto Mastodon. Like Guppe.
Then they start discovering stuff that's actively being advertised on Mastodon by its creators with thousands upon thousands of boosts. This only applies to Pixelfed and maybe PeerTube. Still, to them, Mastodon is the only one of its kind.
Even later, they may stumble upon other ActivityPub-based microblogging projects. Not even all of them yet. If their worldview wasn't shattered in the previous paragraph, it is now.
And unless this happens through one of my posts, chances are it'll take them even longer to discover projects that a)... show more
@eshep Well, the discoverability of forums themselves is better on Friendica than on Guppe. As I've said, Guppe only lists 50 forums, Friendica lists them all.
But in order to use Friendica, you need to know it exists.
Almost all newcomers to the Fediverse spend their first three to six months "knowing" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Then they start discovering stuff that's bolted onto Mastodon. Like Guppe.
Then they start discovering stuff that's actively being advertised on Mastodon by its creators with thousands upon thousands of boosts. This only applies to Pixelfed and maybe PeerTube. Still, to them, Mastodon is the only one of its kind.
Even later, they may stumble upon other ActivityPub-based microblogging projects. Not even all of them yet. If their worldview wasn't shattered in the previous paragraph, it is now.
And unless this happens through one of my posts, chances are it'll take them even longer to discover projects that a) go beyond microblogging, b) aren't based on ActivityPub while still speaking it and c) were even created before Mastodon. All three apply to Friendica. Seriously, I wouldn't wonder if many of those who have added @Fediverse News think it's on Mastodon.
Reactions upon the discovery of the Fediverse beyond Mastodon vary, especially if they come with being told that the Fediverse is not just Mastodon plus shoddy Mastodon knock-offs, but there's stuff in the Fediverse that's better at what Mastodon does than Mastodon itself. Some people react with disbelief, some react with out-right denial, and some react the Krikkit way and want everything that isn't Mastodon to be shut down or at least excluded from the Fediverse.
You've already written it: Guppe was created as a Mastodon add-on. Friendica is six years older than Mastodon and out-classes Mastodon in just about everything. Of course, those who have discovered Mastodon to be nice and cosy and perfect don't take the revelation that there's something that's better than Mastodon kindly, so it's only natural that they prefer Guppe.
Also, Guppe has the "advantage" over Friendica of not requiring another user account, another login, potentially another password to memorise. A killer feature for casual Mastodon users.
@queenslight @feld Friendica has super weird and counterintuitive user onboarding. And I'm a veteran Fediverse user. I would never send a new user there.
I count myself as one of the lucky ones. Having come from diaspora looking for a bit more in the features department, I did a fair bit'a shoppin round before settlin on Friendica, then a bit more before finally choosin who ran it.
@jupiter_rowland “Seriously, I wouldn't wonder if many of those who have added FediverseNews think it's on Mastodon.” And those who do know - why would we care? Since it’s set up as a public federating group, I can interact with it trivially on Mastodon or pop over to Friendica for a different user interface. Not sure how the membership & moderation work though - if I were a problem, does the group just ignore me? Does that carry to mstdn?
@Bruce G_NS Those who know aren't part of the problem.
It's those who are fully convinced that the Fediverse is only Mastodon and who may go haywire when you tell them that they are already using a non-Mastodon Fediverse project by being connected to Fediverse News.
I think it's a hack who wanted to introduce groups to Mastodon users. Because Friendica and Lemmy and Hubzilla and whatever aren't where the people are.
And telling the people that those features they're looking for exist over there hasn't been a super effective strategy.
@jupiter_rowland Respectfully, sir, does it make a difference? If what I’m seeing on my Mastodon feed works for me, but there’s a better interface for some activity (pixelfed, for example), but I can still see it on Mastodon even if I can’t thumbs up/down it, and reply, I think the distinction is moot. This is sounding more and more like the neverending “which email tool to use on my phone” in our house. Different UIs enabling different features
@Bruce G_NS Okay, let me explain it to you with a fictional dialogue between me and a Fediverse News subscriber who's convinced that all of the Fediverse is Mastodon.
Me: You're literally using something that isn't Mastodon, but in the Fediverse. Fediverse News is on Friendica.
Them: But Friendica is a Mastodon server.
Me: No, it isn't.
Them: But it has to be. How else can I possibly use it if it isn't on Mastodon?
Me: Because Mastodon and Friendica speak a common language, ActivityPub. Still, Friendica is an absolutely unrelated project. Face it, there's more in the Fediverse than just Mastodon.
Them: WTF? Then Friendica is a group add-o
... show more
@Bruce G_NS Okay, let me explain it to you with a fictional dialogue between me and a Fediverse News subscriber who's convinced that all of the Fediverse is Mastodon.
Me: You're literally using something that isn't Mastodon, but in the Fediverse. Fediverse News is on Friendica.
Them: But Friendica is a Mastodon server.
Me: No, it isn't.
Them: But it has to be. How else can I possibly use it if it isn't on Mastodon?
Me: Because Mastodon and Friendica speak a common language, ActivityPub. Still, Friendica is an absolutely unrelated project. Face it, there's more in the Fediverse than just Mastodon.
Them: WTF? Then Friendica is a group add-on for Mastodon?
Me: No, Friendica has got literally nothing to do with Mastodon. It's wholly independent. Actually, it can do everything that Mastodon can do.
Them: So it's some shoddy Mastodon knock-off that can do forums?
Me: No. Friendica can do all that Mastodon can do without Mastodon, it can do it better than Mastodon, and it can do even more on top that Mastodon can't do.
Them: Lies. Why are you fucking lying to me?
Me: Oh, and Friendica is older than Mastodon. Mastodon is from 2016, Friendica is from 2010. When Mastodon was launched, Friendica had been around for a whopping six years already.
Them: Like. What. The. Ever-loving. FUCK?!?!?! Stop bullshitting me! Friendica is nothing but a fucking Mastodon clone, and all that's good about it is the forums, and I don't want anything else than that!
Me: I'm not bullshitting you. If I am, then so is Wikipedia. Release date: July 1st, 2010. That's a fact. Deal with it.
Them: So... there's... like two Mastodons, and they're both in the Fediverse? WTF?
Me: There are many projects in the Fediverse that are like Mastodon but with more features. Pleroma, Akkoma, MissKey, CalcKey, FoundKey... There are many other projects that aren't like Mastodon. Friendica is more like Facebook. I'm on Hubzilla which is even more powerful than Friendica and still older than Mastodon. And they can all communicate with Mastodon.
Them: What... WTF... NOOOOO I DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT I WANT MY FEDIVERSE TO BE ONLY MASTODON AND NICE AND COZY AND CUDDLY AND I DON'T WANT NOTHING ELSE IN MY BELOVED FEDIVERSE MAKE IT GO AWAY I WANT MY MASTODON-ONLY FEDIVERSE BACK NOOOOOOOO THIS IS TOO MUCH SOMEONE PLEASE FEDIBLOCK EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T MASTODON
End of demonstration.
I'm not even kidding, I've read a story about someone from the "Fediverse = Mastodon" crowd who actually blocked a Friendica user for telling them that the Fediverse is not just Mastodon and for allegedly "intruding" into their timeline with some black hacking magic or something.
Sometimes I wish I could go around, grab every single one of those who have joined since the #TwitterTakeover by the shoulders, shake them and tell them, now listen here, #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse. Tell them there's more to the #Fediverse than #Mastodon until they understand why my "toots" look so weird. Also tell them it isn't worth fighting for Mastodon to include certain features. There are more microblogging services in the Fediverse, and they all have these features already, and they all connect to Mastodon.
So you want quote-tweets? Stop pestering Eugen Rochko for including something in Mastodon which he firmly rejects. Go join e.g. #Akkoma instead, and you've got your quote-tweets. And you can always reconnect with all your Mastodon friends just the same as on Mastodon.
Many are positively surprised when they learn that. They've spent some four months in the Fediverse, thinking Mastodon is all there is to the Fediverse. It feels like a whole new world to be explored.
But I've come to the realisation that millions of Mastodon users don't want any of that. They don't want to know about other projects in the Fediverse. It confuses them. They've spent their entire online lives in monolithic, centralised, corporate data silos like #Facebook, #Instagram and #Twitter. It was hard enough to wrap their minds around Mastodon's decentralised architecture with lots of independent #instances, now called #servers.
All they wanted was a Twitter clone without #ElonMusk, but otherwise identical to Twitter. When someone showed them mastodon.social (which isn't even the official Mastodon website; this is), they expected to find just that. And then they first had to learn what instances are and afterwards choose one because mastodon.social didn't let them in. They're still shell-shocked from that. In fact, many of them still wish there were no instances, and Mastodon was a centralised silo like Twitter, for that'd make things easier.
Worse yet, there isn't that one fully-featured mobile app on Apple App Store and Google Play Store that bears the same name as the whole project. There is one, but it sucks, and everyone urges them to use a third-party app that isn't even named Mastodon. So they have to pick something again, and then they have to remember the name of their Mastodon app because it doesn't have "Mastodon" written under the icon.
And then folks like me come along and tell these people that the Fediverse is #NotOnlyMastodon. That some of the instances out there aren't on Mastodon, but parts of wholly different projects. Now, they've just gotten used to the Fediverse being decentral and made up of lots of independent instances of Mastodon. But then someone overthrows this hard-to-grasp world view once again by mentioning that it is, in fact, not only Mastodon that the Fediverse is made of. Worse yet, that someone starts rattling down name after name of other Fediverse projects.
Nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. That's too much. Too much information for someone who came to Mastodon expecting an iPhone app for another black-box internet platform.
Mastodon had just started feeling cosy to them. Well, except for too much #Linux and #FLOSS technobabble. And except for still being hard to use with all these instances and a lack-lustre official mobile app. In fact, except for this lack-lustre official mobile app being the only available iPhone app for Mastodon until recently because everyone only made apps for Android for reasons that don't belong here. They feel like they finally know the Fediverse, that they don't have to learn anything about it anymore, and they've come to love what they know.
But all of a sudden, all these other Fediverse projects burst into their lives. All at once. More nerdy tech information is being shoved down their throats. And the Fediverse doesn't feel the same anymore, now that they know that not everything is Mastodon.
Again, yes, some may look at me in curiosity, their chin resting on their palms, and say, "That's intriguing, tell me more!"
But many others reject this entirely. They cover their ears and go, "La la la la la, I don't want to hear it!" They're those people who speak of the Fediverse as if it's only Mastodon, whom you tell that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon, and who then continue speaking of the Fediverse as if it's only Mastodon. They want it to only be Mastodon because that's easier to understand, and they ignore everyone and everything that says otherwise.
Truth be told, they may have an additional justification. And that's the kind of people who are in the Fediverse, but not on Mastodon, and whose posts come "flooding" into Mastodon. Weeaboos, furries and other weirdos on #Pleroma. Worse tech geeks on #Akkoma and #CalcKey than even those on Mastodon. On top of that, even worse tech geeks in the shape of the "supremacist" old guard from #Friendica, #Hubzilla and #Streams who play key roles in all rallys against centralised services that'd make Mastodon easier to use for former Twitter users.
A closer look may reveal that all their projects are "unusable" for someone who is used to Mastodon, even more so for someone who freshly comes over from Twitter or Facebook. And yet, all of them even claim that what they use is better than Mastodon. Another reason to not like a not-only-Mastodon Fediverse.
Another reason, in fact, to want the Mastodon-only Fediverse "back" that never even existed in the first place.
However, you can't really protect these people from the parts of the Fediverse beyond Mastodon, even if you want to. For a user of something that isn't Mastodon, this is even more difficult. In particular, you can't pretend to them that you're on Mastodon when what comes out of your instance clearly doesn't look like it came from Mastodon. And I'm not necessarily only talking about character counts. You can't help but go on confusing them. That is, unless you want to sacrifice all the extra features of the project you use and move to Mastodon itself.
In all honesty, I expect a campaign for fediblocking everything that isn't Mastodon to emerge before the end of the year. And no, the campaigners won't want to hear that this is nigh-impossible. They'll want it to happen, no matter how.
@Christopher As I've said, there are many Mastodon users who have joined during the big migration in November who are still blissfully unaware that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. You'll first have to tell them that.
Then they'll have to accept it.
Then you'll have to get into their heads that "Fediverse" means that everything connects with everything, and they can interact with Friendica or Lemmy from their Mastodon accounts. It sounds like black magic. I mean, it's the same as following someone on Facebook or Reddit while you're on Twitter yourself.
Also, many of those who joined Mastodon in late 2022 are so happy and giddy about it that they can't for the lives of them imagine that something else in the Fediverse could possibly have any advantage over Mastodon.
I've had someone tell me that everything that isn't Mastodon has to suck because only Mastodon is "feature-complete". I could have replied to him by pitting Mastodon against Hubzilla in... show more
@Christopher As I've said, there are many Mastodon users who have joined during the big migration in November who are still blissfully unaware that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. You'll first have to tell them that.
Then they'll have to accept it.
Then you'll have to get into their heads that "Fediverse" means that everything connects with everything, and they can interact with Friendica or Lemmy from their Mastodon accounts. It sounds like black magic. I mean, it's the same as following someone on Facebook or Reddit while you're on Twitter yourself.
Also, many of those who joined Mastodon in late 2022 are so happy and giddy about it that they can't for the lives of them imagine that something else in the Fediverse could possibly have any advantage over Mastodon.
I've had someone tell me that everything that isn't Mastodon has to suck because only Mastodon is "feature-complete". I could have replied to him by pitting Mastodon against Hubzilla in features and listing up dozens of features that Hubzilla has that Mastodon doesn't while also stating that there's almost nothing that Mastodon has that Hubzilla doesn't. But I didn't.
Also, I think that whoever invented Guppe knew neither Lemmy nor Friendica nor Hubzilla at that point nor any of the other "Reddit clone" endeavours that were pretty much stillborn (Lotide, anyone?).
This is why it's dangerous to build "Fediverse projects" when you still think the Fediverse is only Mastodon.
Yeah, that's why I said that telling them hasn't been a super effective strategy. I've been blue in the face for five months now excitedly informing users that things they want are right there, if they just take a step in that direction.
It's clearly not how people want to come to the information. They don't need to be told or shown from strangers they encounter in a new land. They need to find it through some other channels.
@jupiter_rowland OK so you’re talking with one of the batshit crazy types (also, see straw man argument). Still comes down to as a mastodon user (this hat) I can interact with the forum using my current tools. If I discover that I want different features, I can move to a different hat. Most users don’t care about the back end plumbing, and the technical argument that “this is better” doesn’t fly. What’s easy to use for *me*? Upsell for stuff I don’t know if I need fails.
@Bruce G_NS To you, it doesn't matter. I've understood that long ago.
Still, there are people who go completely and utterly stark raving bat-shit insane over there being something else in their nice and cosy Fediverse than nice and cosy Mastodon.
Luckily, you are none of these people. Also, you know that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. And you acknowledge that.
Re-inventing the federated wheel because you don't know that wheels exist
I keep seeing lots of people who are totally giddy about the #Fediverse, who are gushing over it, who want to promote it, who want it to spread.
And who want it to advance. To learn new abilities. To grow new features.
That's all fine and dandy.
But almost all of these people are still fully convinced that the Fediverse equals #Mastodon. And nothing else. At least not until Tumblr and P92 join the fray. Okay, maybe the #WordPress plug-in that's the talk of the town now that it has become official. Okay, maybe a few of them have also heard of #Pixelfed and/or #PeerTube because their makers are all over the Fediverse.
When these people are talking about the Fediverse, they mean Mastodon. And when they're thinking about the Fediverse, they're only thinking about Mastodon. Because that's all they know.
So these people want new cool features or even new cool use-cases in the Fediverse, stuff that Mastodon doesn't have. They want Mastodon to have it, or they want new projects to be launched that have these features.
If only they knew.
If only they knew that everything, literally everything they propose has already been done. Yes, in the Fediverse. In projects which are fully federated with Mastodon. Why don't they know? Because they've never heard of any of these projects, much less what they can do.
So they want "quote-tweets" in the Fediverse. Which means they want Mastodon to introduce them.
Tell you what: Mastodon is the only microblogging project in the Fediverse that doesn't have quotes. Not only will Eugen Rochko never introduce them, but all the other projects have them with Mastodon forks #GlitchSoc such as being the exception. #Pleroma has them. #Akkoma has them. #MissKey has them. #CalcKey has them. #FoundKey has them. #GoToSocial has them. The old heavyweights #Friendica and #Hubzilla have them, and so does Hubzilla's youngest decendant, the #Streams project. Et cetera.
You want "quote-tweets"? Switch to something that isn't Mastodon, and you've got "quote-tweets".
Or text formatting in posts like bold type, italics, underline, strikethrough, code blocks etc. Would be great if Mastodon had that, in spite of other people saying they don't want it.
Again: Pleroma already has it. Akkoma already has it. MissKey already has it. CalcKey already has it. FoundKey already hasit. GoToSocial already has it. Friendica already has it. Hubzilla already has it (look at this post at its source in a Web browser and weep). (streams) already has it. And so forth. This time, even Mastodon forks have it.
It has been done. It has been done many times. It has actually been done before Mastodon.
Next, long-form blog posting. We need something like #Medium in the Fediverse that isn't Medium itself. Mastodon's 500 characters are too few, and Twitter-like threads are inconvenient.
Except we already have that, too. #Plume and #WriteFreely are about as close to Medium as Mastodon is to Twitter, including clean and distraction-less layouts. Oh, and Hubzilla can do that, too.
By the way: Again, Mastodon is the only Fediverse project that can do microblogging that has a 500-character limit. Pleroma, Mastodon's oldest direct competitor, raised it to a default of 6,000. MissKey and its forks have 3,000 as a default. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have character limits of "go ahead, drop your short story in one post in its entirety," so virtually none at all. And yes, Hubzilla has long-form writing on top of that.
Speaking of Hubzilla: Most recently, there has been the idea to uncouple one's online identity from a specific instance. Your online self should no longer be firmly tied to any one server exclusively. Now, this sounds so ambitious, it might just as well be science-fiction.
What if I told you that just this very thing already exists as well?
No, really. No, I'm not making this up. But you should know by now that I'm not.
Better yet: It was conceived as early as 2011. By the guy who launched Friendica in 2010. He invented a new principle named #NomadicIdentity and a new protocol named #Zot. In its early stages already, even with no technical implementation yet, Zot was more powerful than ActivityPub is today.
In 2012, Zot became reality as the basis of a Friendica fork which later became known as #RedMatrix and, upon its 1.0 stable release in late 2015, which is still prior to Mastodon's initial release, Hubzilla. Hubzilla is still being developed and improved, and it has a fledgling but growing "successor of a successor" named (streams) which offers nomadic identity, too.
Now, what does this nomadic identity even look like? Well, not only does it let you move your channel(s) around from instance to instance with ease and, unlike on Mastodon, with absolutely everything on it. No, it also lets you have your channel on multiple instances at once. Identical clones, automagically kept in sync in real-time, all with the same identity, the same content, the same connections.
Your identity is no longer strapped down to one instance. Not only that, but your channel, your posts, your content is no longer hosted on only one server. This means that if one instance with one of your clones goes down, you still have spares.
Okay, so how about community groups/forums? That'd be cool.
Well, for one, there's #Guppe. It's basically bolted on Mastodon, and in practice, it's centralised because there's only one instance. But it's impractical to use.
Besides, this is becoming a running gag here, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have exactly this built-in and open for the rest of the Fediverse.
Better yet: There's also #Lemmy which amounts to a federated #Reddit or #HackerNews clone. So not only does Lemmy offer this, it specialises in it.
Hubzilla alone can provide Fediverse feature suggestions with "has been done" for years to come. Not to mention what elsethe Fediverse has to offer. Even if someone should want a free, non-commercial, decentralised, federated #GoodReads clone in the Fediverse, it has been done: #BookWyrm.
Let's make social media free, federated and fun! Fediverse.Party is your guide into the world of decentralized, autonomous networks running on free open software on a myriad of servers across the world. No ads and no algorithms.
@potungthul Please do not check the definitions of cleave, sanction or bi-weekly. I have given up throwing my hands in the air when Americans say they want to “table something” at a meeting and promptly remove it from the agenda instead of correctly *adding* it. Words are made of amorphous goo and fighting it will end in tears.
@Potung Thul, @Kevin Davidson, the increasing popularity of the ignorant leads to the death of the proper meaning of words. I love to verbinate words or add some silly adjectivication to them. I do so purely for the comedic affect, it's fun to play with words. Luckily I'm not admired by many and therefor have very little influence over the way people speak. 😁
@Bruce G_NS, @Jupiter Rowland, the fact that some tools are objectively ""better"" than others only makes a difference to the user who wants that betteryness. The best thing about the Fediverse is that choice we all have to use the interface that suits our needs, be it an interface that already exists or one that has yet to be realized.
The part of this that's a problem is when new folks join Mastadon, find the interface doesn't work for them, and when they ask for assistance or clarification, they're told "that's just the way it is" instead of "here's a few other ways you could enjoy the Fediverse". Simply because the person they asked only knows the word Mastadon and has no idea what a fediverse is. The root of it all is the Fediverse being advertised as Mastadon instead of Mastadon being advertised as a way to interact with people in the Fediverse.
@kichae@kitchenparty.online, @Jupiter Rowland, where the people are is the #fediverse, not #Mastadon. Yes, the mass of fediverse users may be using Mastadon but the entire point of it speaking #ActivityPub is interoperability with other AP things. Thereby making #Friendica's forums, or #Lemmy's forums/threads(?), or #rss feeds, or #PeerTube channels or #Pixelfed albums(?), or #Funkwhale stations(?), or #Guppe groups, or whatever else, all easily accessible to everyone in the fediverse if people are simply given the proper information from the start.
@MetalSamurai You are absolutely right. I protest only because it is my nature to balk against creating even more ambiguity where previously language meant something.
Eventually language will degenerate into a single word that will mean anything of which we happen to be thinking at the moment: "smurf!"
@potungthul If you’re interested you could join the campaign against “I could care less”. Canute, Sisyphus and the little boy with his finger in the dyke have all said they’d lend a hand just as soon as they’ve finished the thing they’re in the middle of just now. With all this support, I’m confident about this one.
@MetalSamurai I know it seems hopeless. Still, it's the principle of the thing, not to take the rest way out. That's why I am here and not on the bird site.
Suffixes help label the part of speech of a word, so I have no problem with getting an invitation, just an invite. There will always be lazy people in the world, and there will always be a place for those who show how it's supposed to be done.
==== Time Stamps ==== 0:00 Intro 2:21 First Look 2:27 The Basic Movements 4:01 The UI 5:19 Follow Links 6:55 T he Modes 10:23 Customizations 11:02 Back to the Modes 13:46 Search and Bookmarks 17:14 Getting Help and Documentation 19:30 Firefox Containers 20:46 Preferences 22:46 Things I Don't Like 24:42 Wrapping Up (Finally)
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April 20, 2023 - 1 likes, 0 comments - Jill Bryant Ryniker (@jill_linuxgirl) on Instagram: "LWDW #Linux news this week!! 😂🐧🐧🐧
I got interviewed on
@KubernetesPod from #SCaLE20x..."
I created this map to help and inspire your gaming group to create a more believable setting for your adventures. #ttrpg #worldbuilding #cartography #inspiration
A large and magnificently rendered and coloured digital map of a mysterious fantasy world. Use it for your home brew D&D or other fantasy TTRPG campaign.
Vintage Story is a survival game that I simply love to watch and casually dive into now and then, and it's probably one of the most impressive indie open-world survival games around, if you like things hardcore.
Everyone needs to know there's a Fediverse -- much like they need to know there's an Internet.
Referring to @pixelfed as a Mastodon app, for example, is kind of like referring to Wikipedia as a Facebook app. Yes, @pixelfed with Mastodon, but it's not a Mastodon apps. Yes, Wikipedia connects to Facebook via hyperlinking and previewing, but it's not a Facebook app.
You wouldn't refer to Facebook as the Internet. This is why you shouldn't refer to Mastodon as the Fediverse.
Why is it important for people to know that a Fediverse exists?
Because just as people can do different things on different websites, they need to know that they can do different things on different Fediverse services.
Most people don't visit Wikipedia expecting it to be Facebook. And most people shouldn't visit @pixelfed expecting it to be Mastodon.
"But why can't we do everything through Mastodon and define function at the client level?" some people ask.
Because servers create boundaries on what clients can do.
Mastodon doesn't support comment control. Other Fediverse server software, like @pixelfed, does.
This isn't to say that Mastodon is a "worse" service, just that there's certain functions that it does and doesn't support -- and a client can't add those functions.
The Fediverse could unlock untold innovation on the Internet, as much as the world wide web and email.
Some might wonder why that didn't happen 10 or 20 years ago. The reason is that it social media's true innovative possibilities were kneecapped by centralization and the entities that became Big Social.
But because the Fediverse exists through *protocols* not *proprietary APIs*, it isn't owned by anyone. This makes it possible for anyone to build off of it.
Currently, what's preventing us from an explosion of innovative Fediverse services?
Mental paradigms.
We've been so thoroughly trained to believe that social media should operate through a walled garden, that we so many of us don't actually believe it that the Fediverse offers a functional alternative.
"What? @pixelfed can talk to Mastodon -- but it's not Mastodon? Impossible!" they say.
Seems many of these people just want a place where they can replicate the experience they were accustomed to on twitter. They neither know, nor care to know that other things exist, they want everything in a single location because that's how they understand (been led to believe) it's ""sposed to work"" with social media.
I see no problem with them wanting to use it in that way. The danger in it is with them misinforming people who do want more from the service. For those folks, being told "that's just how it works here", is very much the wrong advice.
I keep seeing lots of people who are totally giddy about the #Fediverse, who are gushing over it, who want to promote it, who want it to spread.
And who want it to advance. To learn new abilities. To grow new features.
That's all fine and dandy.
But almost all of these people are still fully convinced that the Fediverse equals #Mastodon. And nothing else. At least not until Tumblr and P92 join the fray. Okay, maybe the #WordPress plug-in that's the talk of the town now that it has become official. Okay, maybe a few of them have also heard of #Pixelfed and/or #... show more
I keep seeing lots of people who are totally giddy about the #Fediverse, who are gushing over it, who want to promote it, who want it to spread.
And who want it to advance. To learn new abilities. To grow new features.
That's all fine and dandy.
But almost all of these people are still fully convinced that the Fediverse equals #Mastodon. And nothing else. At least not until Tumblr and P92 join the fray. Okay, maybe the #WordPress plug-in that's the talk of the town now that it has become official. Okay, maybe a few of them have also heard of #Pixelfed and/or #PeerTube because their makers are all over the Fediverse.
When these people are talking about the Fediverse, they mean Mastodon. And when they're thinking about the Fediverse, they're only thinking about Mastodon. Because that's all they know.
So these people want new cool features or even new cool use-cases in the Fediverse, stuff that Mastodon doesn't have. They want Mastodon to have it, or they want new projects to be launched that have these features.
If only they knew.
If only they knew that everything, literally everything they propose has already been done. Yes, in the Fediverse. In projects which are fully federated with Mastodon. Why don't they know? Because they've never heard of any of these projects, much less what they can do.So they want "quote-tweets" in the Fediverse. Which means they want Mastodon to introduce them.
Tell you what: Mastodon is the only microblogging project in the Fediverse that doesn't have quotes. Not only will Eugen Rochko never introduce them, but all the other projects have them with Mastodon forks #GlitchSoc such as being the exception. #Pleroma has them. #Akkoma has them. #MissKey has them. #CalcKey has them. #FoundKey has them. #GoToSocial has them. The old heavyweights #Friendica and #Hubzilla have them, and so does Hubzilla's youngest decendant, the #Streams project. Et cetera.
You want "quote-tweets"? Switch to something that isn't Mastodon, and you've got "quote-tweets".Or text formatting in posts like bold type, italics, underline, strikethrough, code blocks etc. Would be great if Mastodon had that, in spite of other people saying they don't want it.
Again: Pleroma already has it. Akkoma already has it. MissKey already has it. CalcKey already has it. FoundKey already hasit. GoToSocial already has it. Friendica already has it. Hubzilla already has it (look at this post at its source in a Web browser and weep). (streams) already has it. And so forth. This time, even Mastodon forks have it.
It has been done. It has been done many times. It has actually been done before Mastodon.Next, long-form blog posting. We need something like #Medium in the Fediverse that isn't Medium itself. Mastodon's 500 characters are too few, and Twitter-like threads are inconvenient.
Except we already have that, too. #Plume and #WriteFreely are about as close to Medium as Mastodon is to Twitter, including clean and distraction-less layouts. Oh, and Hubzilla can do that, too.
By the way: Again, Mastodon is the only Fediverse project that can do microblogging that has a 500-character limit. Pleroma, Mastodon's oldest direct competitor, raised it to a default of 6,000. MissKey and its forks have 3,000 as a default. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have character limits of "go ahead, drop your short story in one post in its entirety," so virtually none at all. And yes, Hubzilla has long-form writing on top of that.Speaking of Hubzilla: Most recently, there has been the idea to uncouple one's online identity from a specific instance. Your online self should no longer be firmly tied to any one server exclusively. Now, this sounds so ambitious, it might just as well be science-fiction.
What if I told you that just this very thing already exists as well?
No, really. No, I'm not making this up. But you should know by now that I'm not.
Better yet: It was conceived as early as 2011. By the guy who launched Friendica in 2010. He invented a new principle named #NomadicIdentity and a new protocol named #Zot. In its early stages already, even with no technical implementation yet, Zot was more powerful than ActivityPub is today.
In 2012, Zot became reality as the basis of a Friendica fork which later became known as #RedMatrix and, upon its 1.0 stable release in late 2015, which is still prior to Mastodon's initial release, Hubzilla. Hubzilla is still being developed and improved, and it has a fledgling but growing "successor of a successor" named (streams) which offers nomadic identity, too.
Now, what does this nomadic identity even look like? Well, not only does it let you move your channel(s) around from instance to instance with ease and, unlike on Mastodon, with absolutely everything on it. No, it also lets you have your channel on multiple instances at once. Identical clones, automagically kept in sync in real-time, all with the same identity, the same content, the same connections.
Your identity is no longer strapped down to one instance. Not only that, but your channel, your posts, your content is no longer hosted on only one server. This means that if one instance with one of your clones goes down, you still have spares.Okay, so how about community groups/forums? That'd be cool.
Well, for one, there's #Guppe. It's basically bolted on Mastodon, and in practice, it's centralised because there's only one instance. But it's impractical to use.
Besides, this is becoming a running gag here, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have exactly this built-in and open for the rest of the Fediverse.
Better yet: There's also #Lemmy which amounts to a federated #Reddit or #HackerNews clone. So not only does Lemmy offer this, it specialises in it.
Hubzilla alone can provide Fediverse feature suggestions with "has been done" for years to come. Not to mention what elsethe Fediverse has to offer. Even if someone should want a free, non-commercial, decentralised, federated #GoodReads clone in the Fediverse, it has been done: #BookWyrm.
Let's make social media free, federated and fun! Fediverse.Party is your guide into the world of decentralized, autonomous networks running on free open software on a myriad of servers across the world. No ads and no algorithms.
If my account is on a Mastodon server, using a Masto app (Fedilab), can I see "quote tweets" from Misskey et al users? Or do those messages just get dropped?
I think it's usually only a case of the formatting being stripped so that Mastodon users can't see what and how much of a post is a quote. For example, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) use good old BBcode, and Mastodon strips off all formatting that comes from BBcode except [url][/url] (ActivityPub actually uses Rich Text to transmit formatting).
Other projects may use the even older leading >. Stripping it makes little sense, but Mastodon doesn't recognise it as a quote yet.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
Quote posts are under exploration, according to the official roadmap, and Eugen had said publicly that his thinking has evolved on the subject and not to take his previous stance as gospel.
Not that your overall point is at all wrong, as they aren’t here yet but are and have been elsewhere in the Fediverse.
pixelfed is not there yet. You can't change who has access to a post after you have posted, you can't upload in-bulk/collections, there's no exif image info, no space to publish model and photographer releases... It can become something great, but don't expect people to adopt en masse until it reaches a more mature state. Same for other projects in similar state.
It is how Mastodon instances talk to other Mastodon instances. And it is how, for example, Pleroma instances talk to Mastodon instances. Or to each other.
@EamonnMR I'm not quite sure what exactly you mean with "app".
If you mean whether users of different mobile apps for the #Fediverse can stay in contact with users with the mobile app named "Mastodon" that you install from the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store, that's the wrong question. But the answer is yes.
If you mean whether users of different proj... show more
@EamonnMR I'm not quite sure what exactly you mean with "app".
If you mean whether users of different mobile apps for the #Fediverse can stay in contact with users with the mobile app named "Mastodon" that you install from the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store, that's the wrong question. But the answer is yes.
If you mean whether users of different projects (platforms, server apps etc.) in the Fediverse that aren't Mastodon can stay in contact with Mastodon users, then: Yes, they can. Each project I've mentioned is federated with Mastodon, i.e. they all connect to Mastodon, and their users can interact with Mastodon users.
That's the magic of the Fediverse. And that's the actual idea behind the Fediverse. After all, the Fediverse is not only Mastodon.
@{mattl@social.mat.tl} They don't have to put up with all these features.
If they want cool new features, they may move to e.g. Akkoma or CalcKey or Friendica or whatever. If they don't, they can stay on good old Mastodon.
What they won't get, though, is a 100%, 1:1 Twitter clone, just without Elon Musk.
@Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬛🟩; Soni L. Do you mean me myself in my specific situation or "you" as in anyone with whichever app is the most popular on whichever hardware/OS platform is the most popular?
Do you mean which steps I personally would take using Hubzilla through Firefox on desktop GNU/Linux? Or which steps a beginner would have to take, e.g. using the official Mastodon app on an iPhone?
I could tell you the former, but it'd be of little use for most here. I can't tell you the latter because I don't have any practical experience with it.
yes, which steps you, personally, as a hubzilla user, would be forced to take by the various cross-interacting software (between the OS, the browser/desktop app, the window manager, the instance, and whatever else might be of relevance), to be able to interact with said post from your fedi account?
@Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬛🟩; Soni L. Well, if we were to put ease-of-use above everything else for everyone, we should shut down all projects that aren't Mastodon and then turn Mastodon into a 100%, 1:1 Twitter clone with the only exceptions being the name and the fact that Mastodon isn't owned by Elon Musk. Make mastodon.com both the project website and the only instance, make Mastodon one huge centralised monolithic silo owned by a Mastodon, Inc. in Palo Alto, CA (NASDAQ: MSDN).
Hubzilla wasn't launched in 2022 in a reaction to the launch of Mastodon which in turn was a reaction upon Musk's Twitter takeover. Mastodon was launched in 2016 with no mobile app. And Hubzilla had its 1.0 release in 2015, development began in 2012, and the target audience wasn't the tech-illiterate iPhone user, it was the Linux geek.
Mastodon wasn't built to be mainstream. Hubzilla was even less built to be mainstream.
so the linux geek should be forced to put up with that crap because demanding better of your tools is too much to ask for?
is it really made for the linux geek, or for the C89 evangelist? because even the modern linux geek uses rust nowadays, complete with borrow checker. but the C89 evangelist will claim turning on -Wall is against the spirit of C. why *not* demand better of mastodon and hubzilla, too?
@Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬛🟩; Soni L. The Linux geek has different priorities than the tech-illiterate iPhone user. It's all about security, data/privacy protection and efficiency and about definitely not being bullshat by anyone. The latter is one of the reasons why Linux geeks distrust non-free, closed-source software. Efficiency is why Linux geeks have drifted away from the 2000s' easier-to-use KDE and GNOME to nowadays' i3wm. Many only know GUIs from Firefox anymore. "The modern Linux geek" generally doesn't use mice, touchpads or other pointing devices anymore.
And the former two points are why Linux geeks distrust big, corporate centralised silos. Friendica was built to have a powerful social network platform like Facebook, but free-as-in-free-license, open-source, non-commercial, non-corporate, decentralised and federated. In fact, federated with everything and then some. Still, Friendica's target audience weren't those who used the Facebook app on their iPhone... show more
@Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬛🟩; Soni L. The Linux geek has different priorities than the tech-illiterate iPhone user. It's all about security, data/privacy protection and efficiency and about definitely not being bullshat by anyone. The latter is one of the reasons why Linux geeks distrust non-free, closed-source software. Efficiency is why Linux geeks have drifted away from the 2000s' easier-to-use KDE and GNOME to nowadays' i3wm. Many only know GUIs from Firefox anymore. "The modern Linux geek" generally doesn't use mice, touchpads or other pointing devices anymore.
And the former two points are why Linux geeks distrust big, corporate centralised silos. Friendica was built to have a powerful social network platform like Facebook, but free-as-in-free-license, open-source, non-commercial, non-corporate, decentralised and federated. In fact, federated with everything and then some. Still, Friendica's target audience weren't those who used the Facebook app on their iPhones while neither knowing nor caring what happened in the background.
And Hubzilla was made because even Friendica didn't provide enough resilience with its decentralisation yet. Even more than in Friendica's case, the target audience did not include tech-illiterate Joe Average. Hubzilla has always been for people who either know what they're doing or are willing to learn.
The Fediverse was made by tech geeks for tech geeks. Mastodon was launched in 2016 when nobody could even expect Elon Musk to buy out Twitter. When nobody would have expected a mass-exodus of Joe Averages with neither knowledge nor interest in tech from Twitter to Mastodon. And when Friendica and Hubzilla adopted ActivityPub, nobody had in mind if and how these Joe Averages could understand that, although they're on Mastodon, they'd certainly interact with people on entirely different services. And it didn't matter. Other things mattered a whole lot more.
If tech geeks had always put the focus 100% on ease-of-use and neglected everything else, we literally wouldn't have any free, open-source software nowadays because all the commercial software is easier to use. Eugen Rochko wouldn't have created Mastodon because the Twitter mobile app was easier to use than Mastodon would have been in a Web browser. Mike Macgirvin wouldn't have created Friendica, Red Matrix/Hubzilla, Osada, Zap, Misty, Roadhouse and (streams) because the Facebook mobile app was easier to use than either of them in a Web browser.
Linux and XMPP should have taught the Linux geeks that average computer users can't handle having to choose. And yet, Laconica/StatusNet/GNU social became decentral. As did Friendica. As did Diaspora*. As did Mastodon and everything else that uses ActivityPub. As, by the way, did Matrix.
And why?
Because their creators wanted to create online services that don't end up entirely in one hand. A hand that could possibly misuse its own power. They actually wanted to encourage people to run their own private instances. They wanted people to own their own data. Of course, first and foremost, they had people in mind who were fully capable of setting up a LAMP stack on a headless server and maintaining it through ssh. Having to choose between a one-click solution for tech-illiterate dummies and security, they picked the latter.
Also, they, just like their target audience, like to get their hands dirty on techy stuff. They want control. Control over everything that happens. They want to know how stuff works, and they want control over how that stuff works. They want things to happen the way they want it, not the way some developer or even some corporation wants it.
They hate black boxes. They hate closed-source software. They hate it when they have to push a button, and then some magic that's none of their business happens somewhere in the background, well-hidden from them. They don't trust such crap.
They want to KNOW what happens. First-hand, if need be. And, if need be, they want to have an influence on what happens and why it happens. They want to be able to disrupt it if something bad happens. They want to be able to fix it if it's broken. They want to be able to manipulate it until it acts the way they need it to act.
This, by the way, is largely why Hubzilla's UX is as complicated as it is: It isn't made for people seeking the simplicity of WhatsApp. It's made for geeks who want to assume full control over everything their channel can do. People who distrust autopilots, assistants and obfuscated algorithms.
The reason why Hubzilla is both decentralised and nomadic is because it was made by people who prefer security over maximum ease-of-use for people who prefer security over maximum ease-of-use. For people who have seen too much snake oil and security-through-obscurity bullshit in their lives. For people who want to know and be able to verify why exactly something is as secure as it's claimed to be.
However, this entire philosophy and everything that came from it clashes hard with the demands and expectations of 10,000,000 tech-illiterates who have come over from Twitter, initially expecting a 100% Twitter clone, and many of whom now demand their 100% Twitter clone at all costs. Also because they neither know nor care what the costs would be.
If you simplify the Fediverse by forcing everything that isn't Mastodon to shut down in order to no longer confuse tech-illiterates with people who claim they aren't on Mastodon although they seem to be, the Fediverse will lose a whole lot of power and versatility. Of course, the tech-illiterates won't care, they want the Fediverse to be an as-easy-as-possible Twitter clone.
If you simplify the Fediverse further by axing all mobile apps except for one official app that's non-free and closed-source in order not to break its own license by its mere presence in the Apple App Store, you subject all its users to not only potential spying, privacy breaches and all kinds of private data going where at least some of us don't want it to go. Again, tech-illiterates won't care as long as the app is easy to use.
If you simplify the Fediverse even further by turning it all into one big, centralised, monolithic data silo operated by the same company that also develops everything, just so that people don't have to put up with having to choose an instance (or learning what instances are), you take "somewhere else to go" away from people. And it'd become possible for one individual to take over the whole Fediverse. With nowhere else to go, people will have to leave the Fediverse as a whole, and their only alternatives would be other corporate silos.
Because developing resilient alternatives is out of question. Because they wouldn't be easy enough to use.
@Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬛🟩; Soni L. It's basically the same as "If #Linux wants to take over the desktop, it'll have to become identical to #Windows, just free-of-charge and without malware. No more distros, one Linux for everyone, one desktop environment, one graphical toolkit, only one of each, whatever it is."
same here, I just bookmarked the post so I can come back to it when I'm more used to all this. New universes take time to understand lol. I feel like a refugee that has also time traveled, it's so cool.
Content warning: re: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
Question, from a recent Facebook refugee - if TikTok goes down, would Peertube work as a new home, do you think? People are debating where to go, and I am just now learning about the fediverse. Thank you for this write up! It's so helpful! I had no idea!
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
I don't think people understand the cross-app story. For most (all?) social network users the draw isn't the protocol or the UX, it's the people. Would switching to a different fediverse app mean people would lose touch with their Mastodon friends? Do they know the answer?
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
tilde.zone is on glitch and the default is 5,000 chars. It also has a markdown option, but I haven't turned it on until that feature is upstreamed in mastodon itself. Presumably friendica et alia will follow (or already have?)
I didn't know that! Thanks. I use joplin for notes, so I know md to some extent. Joplin also has 'extended' the md, so... I don't really know how much I know is actually transferable. Like tables for example. No idea, but they're handy.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
But what about all those people who came here because they wanted an alternative for Twitter, not an alternative for Facebook? Who chose self-limiting to short messages on purpose, who don't want various formatting styles, and so on?
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
Luckily, all those people can still keep having the message limits, and at the same time interact with the others thanks to #ActivityPub 😍. People want something differently - well, it probably already exists, you just have to migrate to another corner of the #fediverse.
@basisbit There may be a few who were given the choice between multiple projects (e.g. Mastodon vs Akkoma vs Friendica etc.) right away, also being told that they'd have the exact same people to connect to, regardless of what they choose, and who chose what appeared as the closest to Twitter.
But for each of them, you have thousands upon thousands who were only told about Mastodon, who were told that Mastodon is the Fediverse, either on Twitter or by mass-media. Including thousands to whom mastodon.social was sold as "Twitter without Musk" because nothing more fit into 280 characters.
@basisbit I've already seen it before replying. And I think my previous answer already covers it.
Yes, a few people were shown the whole Fediverse before joining. Out of all projects, they picked Mastodon because it seemed the most simple and the closest to Twitter to them.
Others were shown the whole Fediverse before joining, and they picked something that isn't Mastodon because they found Mastodon to be too lacking.
Most were only shown Mastodon, usually only one instance. They didn't get to choose because they didn't know they had a choice, much less what their choices would have been.
Some of the latter actually don't want there to be anything else than Mastodon. They want the Fediverse to be as simple as possible. Multiple Mastodon instances are already too complicated. Multiple different projects in the Fediverse, each with multiple instances, now, that really goes too far. Everything that isn't Mastodon has to go, also because everything that isn't Mastodon is too complicated all in itself.
@Jupiter Rowland Edge case "technically inclined" non-tech Frendica user reporting in. Perpetually disaffected genXer, product of the BBS -> CompuServe -> Internet 1.0 pipeline. Don't really consider myself a techie though, I use Windows and haven't written any code since a VBScript I whipped up over a decade ago. I understand tech, but I'm not immersed in it. Literally no one "showed" me anything about the Fediverse.
As a Twitter user from the days when the killer feature was posting via SMS I had heard of the Fediverse, Diaspora*, etc bubbling away in the background, but it never rose to the level of something I needed to give serious consideration before. When rumblings of Elon possibly buying Twitter started I knew I needed to be ready to jump ship if the worst occurred and I felt I should be ready to help others who might need to do the same.
I literally just hit up Wikipedia, looked up the entry on the Fediverse and started researc... show more
@Jupiter Rowland Edge case "technically inclined" non-tech Frendica user reporting in. Perpetually disaffected genXer, product of the BBS -> CompuServe -> Internet 1.0 pipeline. Don't really consider myself a techie though, I use Windows and haven't written any code since a VBScript I whipped up over a decade ago. I understand tech, but I'm not immersed in it. Literally no one "showed" me anything about the Fediverse.
As a Twitter user from the days when the killer feature was posting via SMS I had heard of the Fediverse, Diaspora*, etc bubbling away in the background, but it never rose to the level of something I needed to give serious consideration before. When rumblings of Elon possibly buying Twitter started I knew I needed to be ready to jump ship if the worst occurred and I felt I should be ready to help others who might need to do the same.
I literally just hit up Wikipedia, looked up the entry on the Fediverse and started researching the various platforms from there. I landed on Frendica ironically because it offered Twitter cross-integration and I knew that could be helpful for some of my Twitter friends who couldn't afford to just leave there cold for various reasons like relying on it to promote their business or art or sex work, organizing mutual aid, organizing protests, etc.
When I did jump ship in October it was clear Twitter integration wasn't a priority for me anymore, the platform was a lost cause for me by then (and I stopped visiting Twitter at all by early November). Never did end up convincing anyone who was looking to leave Twitter but relied on it in ways that made other parts of the Fediverse untenable to them that Frendica was a viable alternative though. In the end it was all just too opaque and confusing to them despite my best efforts to help them navigate it all.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
I have learned more about the #Fediverse from reading your posts this afternoon than I EVER found online doing web searches and reading articles and guides.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
Many of these sound very cool, but at least in the US and English I'm finding most instances (Pleroma, hubzilla) throwing errors and empty of users.
I come from a networking background. I've seen so many 'better' protocols fail while TCP and IPv4 just keep chugging along doing consistent adequate work. And I feel like I'm seeing this pattern yet again.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
@Slyphic @Jupiter Rowland After all, we are not talking here about having to change the protocol for a better one. What we are talking about is that the perception of the fediverse is skewed by one #dominant #platform and applications for it. This platform and its applications will never meet all the requirements of all users because this is against decentralisation and diversity, what is we need here.
Content warning: re: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
Yeah, the fediverse should be explored more, it gets quite tiring over the years to see even implementers wanting things that had prior art and so could benefit from at least being studied so you could make better designs or simply be compatible.
btw slight corrections: - Pleroma currently doesn't really supports quotes except inline via blockquotes. And while we do want to support MissKey-style quotes, implementing it on our side has been enough of a mess to get abandoned, hopefully it will get revisited at some point. - Pleroma's default character limit is 5 000 not 6 000, and that configurable limit is given to clients via reusing what glitch-soc added in MastodonAPI
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
@cstross Do they have anything that lets you make posts viewable by only people you have designated as friends, without starting a new account and personally approving all followers? That’s the main thing Mastodon is lacking.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
The problem is, anyone can become your follower unless you lock your account down. I’d want at least the option to make posts only followers I follow can see, though ideally the ability to do lists like Livejournal/Google+ used to.
Functionally, the Fediverse seems to be roughly old email (SMTP) minus a few vital features. One of them is the mandatory "subject" line, so that when you check your "inbox" in the Fediverse you get the whole messages, rather than just a list of sender/subject lines that you can choose whether to open or not.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
from a user perspective, not only do I then have to find an instance of something that supports those features and move to it, I also may need different client software.
Which I think IS confusing (echoing the complaint that mastodon is more confusing than twitter, for example.)
But that is BAD, VERY BAD! So the Fediverse is split into a myriad platforms -- and hence communities -- with incompatible features.
That may be great for the computer nerds who will join a dozen platforms just to revel in the features. It is terrible for those who only want a platform to communicate with other people...
Nope, you got it wrong. Hint: count the number of characters in the toot you just replied to—it's well over 500, because it didn't originate on a Mastodon server! It's a federated system, so every client can read stuff posted on any other server that supports ActivityPub. (Imagine you could read Twitter tweets on your Facebook page. Only more so.) If all you want to do is to toot, that's fine—everyone else can see you just fine.
The message gets transmitted to the client, whose reader is then responsible for displaying/formatting that message (or not, if it lacks the capability). This isn't new. It's how the internet worked 20 years ago, before all these gigantic corporate silos took over. (I shouldn't need to explain this to you, should I …? Graceful degradation of capabilities isn't an new requirement …)
But that is my point. Email and Usenet had a standard message format (ascii text, unfortunately, because that was before Unicode). Every valid server was supposed to issue only compliant messages and properly display any compliant message. This does not seem to be the case in the Fediverse, is it?
ActivityPub is that standard. Just because the client you're using doesn't bother to make use of some of that standard, doesn't mean there's not one. If the email client you choose to use only displays in plain text with no formatting, does that mean there is something wrong with the standards for email message formatting? NO, you're just choosing to not use all the features you prefer.
#Email has supported different content-types since at least 1992 (https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1341) with no guarantee any given client supports any given content-type, none of this is new.
#Usenet & #Fidonet also had ways prior to #MIME, such as via extension headers (with flaws that MIME addressed).
Think back to the early web, when a browser like Mosaic didn't support just http: but also ftp: gopher: nntp: and other protocols. The message formatting was implicit in the protocol used. And worse: different browsers implemented different versions of HTML.
It strikes me as weird that we're able to have this discussion on a number of different federated ActivityPub servers, using a growing variety of front-ends, and still there are people complaining that it's not working as well as it should, because reasons.
I still don't know what I'm supposed to make of fact that some people don't know the difference between Mastodon and Hubzilla. Well if it comes to that, they don't need to know. It all works just fine anyway, as long as you can grasp that users are identified by at username at instance instead of at username.
Are we indeed able to dicuss Fediverse-wide? Or just among those who use a particular prootcol (ActivityPub?)?
And even within the latter, there seem to be obvious problems. I don't see any markups in other people's messages (e.g. cant tell block quotes from the sender's own text). And I am limited to 500 byte posts, so I cannot quote 1000 chars from a post that someone else sent me.
that's what I expected: I don't know whether it's my platform (friendica) that sends stuff that knows that the target can read (plain unicode text) or mastodon that specifically ignores the bbcode (yeah, friendica uses bbcode for markup, for historical reasons I believe).
ActivityPub supports markup and the Frendica BBCode gets translated and passed along. It's Mastodon that doesn't support it and throws it away on their end.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
I've seen the occasional mention of NomadicIdentity but never been able to find any details, implementations etc. Search engines just pull up lot's of stuff about digital nomads instead.
Content warning: tl;dr: All that cool new stuff you want in the Fediverse already exists in the Fediverse, right outside of Mastodon
@beerriot There’s a lot of good points here and I too wish people would more regularly recognize the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. But this still misses something important. In a multi-system network like this, the capabilities *everyone else* has matter, too. Let’s take what I consider the most obvious example:
huh? I thought boosting didn't transmit the content, but sent a reference to the content, and an identifyer of who posted the reference. People on platforms capable of displaying the original content, should not be effected by your platforms ability to interpret that content.
I get the italics, bold, and block quotes, too. If somebody isn't getting that, and it's important enough to them, they can easily migrate to an instance that will provide the markup. I actually did that myself a couple of weeks ago, but for reasons unrelated to the capabilities of the social media server. My old account was on a Mastodon instance called musician.social, and my new account is running Akkoma, a hard fork of Pleroma.
Despite running a completely different implementation, Akkoma was capable of migrating my Mastodon followers, followed, and other settings over. My old posts couldn't be migrated, but I find this limitation acceptable. I can understand why some may be wary of migrating.
Perusing the description in this link, https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ it seems to me that ActivityPub is a standard protocol for the exchange of FILES, leaving their interpretation entirely to users; rather than a protocol for exchange of MESSAGES (including blogposts, articles, etc) -- that is, textual/visual/auditory artifacts, possibly with embedded or attached files. Is this correct.? >>
In this regard (apart from interaction model), ActivityPub is more like old FTP, rather than SMTP+MIME, NNTP, the WWW, and the "social networks".
That is, AP does not try to ensure that a message sent by a user from a compliant server can be read faithfully (apart from non-semantic layout and looks) by recipients in every other server. Because the sender may use a message format that the receiver can't properly handle.
I'm not an implementer, but it's my understanding that the recipient can tell the sender what it can handle, while the sender may include a source attribute containing the original content, as well as the transformed content that complies with the recipient's stated requirements.
I think somebody above referred to the notion of degrading gracefully, and that's certainly possible using such mechanisms.
Yes, but that is still not good. Within ActivityPub, one cannot write a *message* that, a priori, is known to be correctly readable by any of the intended recipients -- unless it is a short (< 500 bytes) text in plain ascii, with no italics, boldface, or other markup, and no embedded images... >>
>> For the ActivityPub network to be a better alternative to social networks, or even to WWW, the ActivityPub standard should specify a *message* format -- such as HTML 3.0 -- that is rich enough for modern expectations (embedded images and hyperlinks, tables, etc.), but that every compliant implementation is required to handle and display properly, on any minimally powerful platform.
Sorry. I have been using ">>" to indicate continuation in threads. A habit I carried over from the bird⌫⌫⌫⌫dogecoin site. My mastodon instance limits posts to 500 bytes.
@Jorge Stolfi, why do you continue to use Mastadon when it clearly doesn't meet your requirements? As everyone has been pointing out, there are many other ways to interact with the Fediverse that have the features you seem to want. Stop torturing yourself with Mastadon; investigate your options and move to an instance which has similar ideals to your own. Then you can be happy with the Fediverse and help to educate others on what you've experienced.
I wish someone had warned me of that 4 months ago, when I joined through mas.to. Oh well.
But the problem is not what kind of text **I** can read and write. It is **lack of interoperability**. It is the fact that, no matter in which server I am hosted, I cannot be sure that everyone who gets my posts will be able to read them correctly -- unless I write only 500 chars of plain ascii.
@Jorge Stolfi, did you not look into any other instances before choosing mast.to? What made you decide that it was the right place for you? Maybe using the most limiting implementation is the correct choice for that goal. Public audience webpages should probably only be written in plaintext without images as well ensuring everyone is able to read them.
I encourage you to leave the Fediverse filter bubble every now and then. IMHO it can be useful to look further outside the box: Remember - the conventional media - newspapers, letters on paper, radio, TV, ah yes - and personal communication - they still exist. Maybe it makes sense in some communication scenarios to simply fall back on the old proven means of communication instead of encapsulating yourself in the Fediverse bubble? Instead of burning time and programming capacities in attempts to teach the many platforms certain features, e.g. "quote-tweets".
@eshep I guess that @Jorge Stolfi was a) told that #Mastodon is the #Fediverse and b) given mas.to as the URL to go to instead of joinmastodon.org.
So whoever guided him to Mastodon either didn't know better themselves or wanted to make it as easy for newcomers as possible, short-cutting the instance selection process by directing them immediately to one instance and not even telling them that such a thing as instances exist.
It happened on Twitter all the time, also because there's only so much you can explain in 280 characters. That's why you have people who joined in November during the #TwitterMigration, who didn't find out about instances and Mastodon's decentral nature until February, and who didn't find out that there's more to the Fediverse than only Mastodon until March.
@Jupiter Rowland, to be fair, Mastadon is about as twitter as AP gets. 😁 It almost feels like the twitteriness of mastodon is there intentionally to give people who've been directed to it as an alternative a bad taste for it so they either head back or persist in their dislike of that system.
It really burns my ass when I see posts like those. People pushing things they know nothing about. It's really quite sad how few people understand the "federation" part of FediVerse.
Indeed I had never heard of the Fediverse or Mastodon when I decided to leave Twitter. Some contacts who did that suggested I move to mastodon. How could I choose between instances before joining them? 🧵>
🧵> Wepages HAVE a basic standard (HTML 3.0, or the equivalent subset of HTML 5.0) that includes bold, italic, images, section headers, tables, lists, etc. By writing my web posts using that subset, I am sure that they can be read in practically every graphics browser, on mostly any platform. The looks may be different, but the semantic contents will get through. 🧵>
🧵> It seems that for the Fediverse, maybe even for Mastodon, the only message format that can be read by everybody is 500 chars plain Unicode without any markup. Plus maybe one poll and a few images -- but only at the end of the post and with fixed size.
I will probably move to some other instance soon. However, the above constraint applies *no matter where I have my account.* That is the problem...
Say you do move to an instance where you're able to read/write >5000 char/post yet you choose to restrict your posts to a size compatible with instances that have made a choice to not be able to read more than say 500 char/post. Are you not then encouraging that restriction to remain as it is? Why not create your posts in full and educate your readers who have that issue as to why they're not able to read it? That would at least be an active effort in promoting a correction to the problem. Simply complaining that others have what you want does nothing to help anyone.
Now, choosing a project rather than an instance of one set project is more difficult without knowing anything about any of them other that they're probably not owned by Elon Musk.
I'm no longer on Mastodon, but when I used musician.social sometimes a longer post would show up. I think it was split up into 500-character chunks somehow. You're right about the interoperability problem.
But the upside is that we can just move to a different server and take our followers with us. I'm sorry if people think that's irrelevant, but it's a really good selling point for me. The degree to which I can communicate with people is in my own hands.
People on mastodon.social which may be the most vanilla of Mastodon instances can read 6,000-character rants written by me with no problems, with nothing cut off.
People on mastodon.social which may be the most vanilla of Mastodon instances can read 6,000-character rants written by me with no problems, with nothing cut off.
And everyone on Pleroma, Akkoma, MissKey, CalcKey, FoundKey, GoToSocial, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), certain Mastodon forks, the last remaining Redmatrix/Osada/Zap/Misty/Roadhouse instance etc. etc., pretty much everywhere that isn't vanilla Mastodon, can see each other's posts with rich-text formatting all right. It's just vanilla Mastodon that's left out.
The compatibility issues we have mostly come from Mastodon flat-out refusing to cooperate with other projects and, as it seems, deliberately staying incompatible to make everything that isn't Mastodon look bad to Mastodon users. How good can e.g. Friendica be if posts coming from there look so weird on Mastodon?
Mastodon can get away with it for two reasons. One, 99.99% of all new arrivals in the Fediverse land on Mastodon and "know" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon. Once they learn about other Fediverse projects, they believe that these were all created after Mastodon, after the Twitter Migration even, and that they're Mastodon add-ons.
Two, the ActivityPub standard can be stretched to kingdom come. It leaves a lot of things undefined. And this is unlikely to change because nobody is there to maintain and develop ActivityPub anymore. Nothing that Mastodon does goes against the ActivityPub standard.
Thus, everything that isn't Mastodon has to put up with Mastodon's shenanigans and build itself against them, even if it's older than Mastodon and requires a plug-in to understand ActivityPub like Friendica and Hubzilla, or become fully incompatible in the long run. Or at the very least, its instances will be Fediblocked by Mastodon instances because "some weird shit" is coming from them due to increasing incompatibility.
Here on mas.to I cannot read your long messages directly on the timeline. Only the first 500 chars show. I must click on the post and then it is displayed whole in a separate sub-window. Still without markup etc.
🧵> But I must dispute "They all can interact together as you are used to interact only from twitter to twiter..." Again, even if I move to friendica, but want my posts to be correctly readable by anyone on the Fediverse, I must still stick to the small Mastodon format...
That is worse than what I had on Usenet or email, 35 years ago.. ☹️
Any chance that Mastodon and the other instances can agree to support a common HTML-3 like message format?
@eshep That's what I do. And it's always the same.
"How can you possibly write more than 500 characters in a toot?"
I'm on Hubzilla.
"Oh, is that a special Mastodon instance with a higher character limit?"
No, it's a different, fully separate Fediverse project that not only is not Mastodon, but that's four years older than Mastodon with next to no character limit and features that exceed your wildest dreams. #^https://hubzilla.org
[beat] "You're not on Mastodon?"
No.
"But how can I read your posts then if you aren't on Mastodon?"
Because Hubzilla, like many other projects that aren't Mastodon, connects to Mastodon. The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. There are many many other projects out there. All of them can talk to Mastodon, and Mastodon can talk to all of them.
Let's make social media free, federated and fun! Fediverse.Party is your guide into the world of decentralized, autonomous networks running on free open software on a myriad of servers across the world. No ads and no algorithms.
@Jorge Stolfi I can't tell you exactly how it works as I'm relatively new here, documentation seems sparse, and I'm unwilling to dig through source code to find out, but my understanding is ActivityPub absolutely supports passing along whatever kind of markup you could possibly want.
The common practice implemented for most of the Fediverse seems to be to translate whatever local markup is being used (eg BBCode on Frendica) into Markdown (I think?) to pass formatting along to other parts of the Fediverse which seems to be well supported by basically everything except Mastodon. It's a choice by the Mastodon devs alone not to adhere to the established convention and turn that back into whatever markup format is needed on their end.
@... show more
@Jorge Stolfi I can't tell you exactly how it works as I'm relatively new here, documentation seems sparse, and I'm unwilling to dig through source code to find out, but my understanding is ActivityPub absolutely supports passing along whatever kind of markup you could possibly want.
The common practice implemented for most of the Fediverse seems to be to translate whatever local markup is being used (eg BBCode on Frendica) into Markdown (I think?) to pass formatting along to other parts of the Fediverse which seems to be well supported by basically everything except Mastodon. It's a choice by the Mastodon devs alone not to adhere to the established convention and turn that back into whatever markup format is needed on their end.
I suggest, instead of presuming, and fellow humans who develop Mastodon, to assume
The compatibility issues we have mostly come from Mastodon flat-out refusing to cooperate with other projects and, as it seems, deliberately staying incompatible to make everything that isn't Mastodon look bad to Mastodon users.
Then, in the next step, to waste infinite time in discussions about technical details, simply to try to reach through some channel the people who develop Mastodon and try to clarify whether the thesis, whether the assumption
... as it seems, deliberately staying incompatible to make everything that isn't Mastodon look bad to Mastodon users.
is correct.
Do we agree - the compatibility problems are not caused by technical issues, but by human ones? It does suggest that there is a better chance of solving these compatibility problems on a human level, rather than spending time in discussions that go round and round in circles of "Which technical features of a particular platform a... show more
I suggest, instead of presuming, and fellow humans who develop Mastodon, to assume
The compatibility issues we have mostly come from Mastodon flat-out refusing to cooperate with other projects and, as it seems, deliberately staying incompatible to make everything that isn't Mastodon look bad to Mastodon users.
Then, in the next step, to waste infinite time in discussions about technical details, simply to try to reach through some channel the people who develop Mastodon and try to clarify whether the thesis, whether the assumption
... as it seems, deliberately staying incompatible to make everything that isn't Mastodon look bad to Mastodon users.
is correct.
Do we agree - the compatibility problems are not caused by technical issues, but by human ones? It does suggest that there is a better chance of solving these compatibility problems on a human level, rather than spending time in discussions that go round and round in circles of "Which technical features of a particular platform are better".
Once they learn about other Fediverse projects, they believe that these were all created after Mastodon, after the Twitter Migration even, and that they're Mastodon add-ons.
Do we agree - the age of a protocol, a platform, a standard - whether this is ActivityPub, Hubzilla or any other platform, is no proof that this platform is better than a younger platform - e.g. Mastodon?
This is my version of a gaming setup. I tried to make it so that a few consoles are always plugged in and ready. Then there's the "jump spot" for taking consoles off the shelf an easy plug in. Putting the TV on the wall with a swivel arm helped free up room. Cable management is always in need of improvement. Wanna come over and play?😊 #retrogaming #RetroComputing #Sega #Nintendo #Atari #Commodore #NEC #PCEngine #NeoGeo
Planet ocean, clearly, which relates to why the projected 1.5C increase in global average temperature doesn't have to be evenly distributed, with likely ~1C increase for the oceans but a whooping ~3C increase for the land, with catastrophic consequences:
I have questions. How can "all other countries" account for *half* of the world land surface, but in the visual aid, it looks like they maybe take up a tenth of the circle, and not even 1/4 of what the rest of the land covers? How is the bottom blue ocean bit 43% by area but 90% by volume? Are oceans much more shallow 200 miles from land? I hoped the article would explain, or at least let me ask there, but no luck.
I've read that the mass of all Oceans is about .02% of the planet. Though water is also common on land and inside the planet, the best name depends on our perspective.. Personally I think of "Human Home Planet", but from space a visitor would probably describe it using water.
Before video games, there were pinball machines. Not that they don’t exist today, but a modern pinball machine will likely have microprocessors and other fancy things that traditional pinball…
We have a thing for DOOM, and we admit it. The source was released, and clever hackers have ported the engine to every system imaginable. It’s a right of passage, when hacking a machine, to r…
I grew up in the US, but have spent most of my life abroad. I've always found that system of measure to be incredibly stupid. Speaking to Americans about measurements of anything is a test of anyone's patience. And what's with the constant "metric is too difficult to learn" comments by Americans?!
We've been working on a bunch of new stuff that just shipped this morning! 🕶️ Experimental WebXR Support 🎥 Third Person Camera 🚶 New Character Controller 🌐 Experimental Authoritative Networking 📦 New Engine Resource System
These discrete rotations are nauseating. I would hope it's not an easily-accessible antifeature, or it will be made in animated fashion (ease-in-out).
Anyway, great to see WebXR in action. I would also hope for not locking-in with Unity Engine for featured maps. What's the status of editing via Mozilla Spoke?
@vintprox in a headset, click-to-turn is much less nauseating than smoothly turning. there is no hard dependency on Unity at all; any glTF works fine. meanwhile we’re concentrating on an in-world editor rather than building a Spoke style thing.
Meet Alpakka - a customisable, #opensource controller with additional features to improve user experience and make it easier for everyone to enjoy #gaming.
Brought to you by Input Labs in support of their mission to "democratise #videogame controllers".
This is a demonstration of my simulated cockpit made from cardboard on a budget mainly used to play Elite Dangerous in early 2022. This is work in progress.
Most of us learn to read digital clocks first, which display the time in obvious numbers. Analog clocks are often learned later, with the hands taking our young brains a little longer to figure out…
The Internet has allowed us to communicate more easily than ever before, and thanks to modern cell-phone networks, we don’t even have to be tied down to a hard line anymore. But what if you w…
Wenn Du überzeugt bist, dass öffentliche Einrichtung auch über freie Social-Media-Kanäle mit der Gesellschaft kommunizieren sollen, kannst Du unsere Kampagne aktiv unterstützen.
One major thing not noted on this page is the hindrance of viewing by the public of posts that should be strictly targeted at public consumption. Facebook makes it almost impossible for anyone without an account to view anything posted on their sites. And YouTube, while accessible, is littered with advertisements which most likely have no relevance to the video and distract attention from the content.
Here is the first episode of the #Linux and #opensource news podcast!
Compared to the videos, I go into more detail on each topic, and I also talk about more topics than what I can cover in the videos.
It's currently only on the website below, and there's an RSS feed to add it to your client of choice, I'll try and add it to other podcast directories in the future (but Spotify doesn't want it for now, spits out a random error, so it will have to wait).
Since it's hosted on castopod, part of the fediverse, you can also just follow it directly from the page, and get all new episodes in your Mastodon feed 😀
When you're linking to a part of the fediverse, I would suggest to also mention the profile; @tlenewspodcast , so people can open it directly in their fediverse clients.
and I think it's the problem that most of the people here have. There are places, where IPv6 isn't that common, so it would be great to add some kind of tunnel (Cloudflare's proxy does this and you can set up tunnel with Hurricane Electric).
Weird... I can open the link to the podcast just fine, but #fedilab just can't find it to follow it. I tried another castopod link and found that just fine.
I've added the RSS feed to @AntennaPod, my current podcasting app. Maybe I'll convert to @podverse if I can transfer everything over, but only because of podcasting 2.0 with the streaming and boosting 🙈🙉🙊
hi, the comments under the podcast don't work so I'll leave my feedback here. The topics seem pretty much like a duplicate of the news video. So if you've watched the video the podcast is not really interesting anymore. It might be good to do more of an opinionated deep dive on a few topics. You can also do listener questions and feedback as part of the podcast.
but could you try making them a bit more different from the news video's? If it's the same topics with an introduction for each one, I'm not gonna listen to it, since it's too similar to the video. If the idea is that the podcast is for people that don't watch the news video's then it works fine, but I wonder how many people that is
@TheStroyer That’s the idea: it’s for people who prefer longer form content in audio form. There are way more topics in the podcast and each of them is covered in more depth than in the video, so either you want a shorter thing with only the biggest topics and a video, or you prefer longer stuff to listen to.
If it ends up not drawing anyone, I’ll rework it but from the feedback I got on the news video, this podcast seems to be what people were asking for ;)
@Sargon I did, with a chapters.json file, but not all podcast services or client will follow it. I don’t know how to add them in the audio file itself, I don’t think that’s possible!
It might be a good time to take a look at WriteFreely (https://writefreely.org/) and their hosted services Write.as (https://write.as/) and WriteFreely Host (https://writefreely.host/) and consider owning your own #blog on the fediverse instead of contributing to the walled gardens of the folks who bequeathed you Twitter.
The only non-invite only general server is rant.li about which there is no information.
Being a mere greenbeard of the #Fedi rather than total novice, I would appreciate knowing more about the person who would be volunteering to host my content and mailing list which they "reserve the right to discontinue without notice at any time."
Not to mention the fact that millions of people who run blogs e.g. on #wordpress are just one click (#plugin inclusion) away from integration with #fediverse.
the “algorithm” on medium is so stupid and broken that I just made the decision to end paid support and if I need anything there read it through a proxy. Just half my feed filled with drivel I have *already blocked*
@niclas It implements ActivityPub so folks can follow your posts from here. (There is also at least one plugin for Wordpress that adds ActivityPub support too.)
@naught101 The object type to replicate Medium would be Article which is for long-form content. HomeTown is a fork of Mastodon that lets users read Articles. WriteFreely lets users write Articles.
Here are all the Object types in the spec. A shared vocabulary like this is what enables all users of Mastodon, PeerTube, WriteFreely, Pixelfed, Gitea to follow and reply to each other.
@naught101 Mastodon is most dominant and only supports "Note". Which has forced all other ActivityPub software to shoehorn all kind of content into a "Note", even though there's a rich vocabulary that's been standardized.
I am wondering how I can write on writefreely.org. I thought you needed to join an #instance to do that. I have to figure out how much it'll cost to own your own #blog on the #fediverse .
@RyunoKi @epilepticrabbit Yo, happy to have this conversation in the open. We have a number of clients using Medium to whose publications we submit posts.
We use WordPress for our main site and https://learnwith.weareopen.coop but we've learned over the last seven years to be tech vegetarians rather than tech vegans.
So, while we acknowledge problems with Medium, and have considered moving away from it, we're unlikely to be doing so any time soon.
@RyunoKi @epilepticrabbit Yeah, I do that personally, but what is good for individuals isn't always good for organisations. I appreciate your concern (and challenge) though!
Another example would be our attempts to move from Google Workspace to Nextcloud last year. We tried at length to create useful workflows that wouldn't get in the way of our existing client work. But, despite helpful people showing us things, it just didn't fit.
@dajb @RyunoKi yep, have been POSSEing for well over a decade, albeit manually and my site isn't always up-to-date with posts I've written... WAO members are always thinking and tinkering. ❤ this convo and we'll continue to work on carving out better spaces for the people and orgs that we try to shine light on. I'm not a huge Medium fan, but as a piece of tech becomes ubiquitous, the ween off it becomes more complicated...
Why would they? It goes against everything in their DNA. They have $163M in venture capital (VC).
The VC game goes like this:
1. You get investment 2. You scale (grow) as quickly as you can, as big as you can 3. You exit (sell) – either to a larger corporation or to the public via an initial public offering (IPO)
Nowhere in the game do you make it easier for people to leave your service for your rivals. On the contrary, you do what you can to lock them in.
I've had an account at Medium since before Mastodon existed. It has its good sides, but it goes through drastic changes too often. When it was new it was super easy: signed up with my Twitter account and started writing. Then they went to more paywalled articles.
I haven't posted there in a long time.
I looked at #WriteFreely and its ilk and I'm still curious, but for now I'll stick with my trusty WordPress blog that I've had since 2010.
FWIW, I've owned my own domain and blog for years, but moving to @medium as my primary blog host enabled me to get a lot more viewership and better manage comments.
That said, I recognize there are a lot of legitimate gripes regarding Medium's history of pivots etc. I believe the current CEO is amenable to constructive feedback, so I am cautiously optimistic about the site's future.
So when some said that #Mastodon was a return to blogs, in reality it’s blogs that are a return to blogs. Really glad I saw this (how did I not hear of this earlier!).
@jeremiah @devinprater Jumping in here to say that @manton has done a fantastic job over the past few months with ActivityPub integration on Micro.blog.
(I don’t know if there’s anything baked in. Couldn’t see it at a quick glance. I guess you could always add a link to your posts to your funding site if folks want to contribute. It’s what I do on my blog.)
So Aral, long had my own domain [which I hack creatively both at content and at primitive code level, presently not linked due to updating], how about some thoughts shared about how such stuff can be "lightly" federated, thus bypassing the gatekeeping of big commerce? I can't be the only one that doesn't want to shoehorn their content into a an additional or less-flexible layer of formatting, but would love to have the peer-connection of fedi a bit deeper than just links.
Great thread. Thanks for starting it. Fantastic discussion. I've never been a fan of #WordPress for the numerous security vulnerabilities it had over the years. Not a fan of #Medium for the reasons listed in the thread.
This minimal version seems like it might be a good fit for me wanting to post longer-than-note length bits.
Just to see what a generic, anonymous post looks like, I posted a #chatGPT -authored story into a mini #blog post here:
What did this look like? Here is a short story from chat GPT. ------- The Sword of Truth Once upon a time, in a far-off land, there lived a young prince named Alexander. He was known throug...
I'm surprised Medium are still around. I read stuff years ago about how their business model had completely tanked. At one time everyone was using Medium but now you barely hear about them, so how are they still making money?
@n0r Read microG documentation and source code. You cannot be tracked using you Google account with push notifications using GMS. Additionally you can easily disable them.
Google does not need people to have a google account. It can just collect all that information without having a google account connected to the information. If the data collection problem would only exist for people with a google account then using google search, youtube etc. without an account would not be a privacy issue either. But it is, and so is piping all notifications through their servers. Them not knowing a corresponding account doesn't mean they don't keep logs.
@n0r Google doesn't need to put in place complex tracking strategies to track people since so many ones are using Google accounts. They are interestes in consolidating user data to sell ads at a higher price. And that data is associated with people Google accounts + trackers.That is exactly the point solved with /e/OS. So you can keep on pretending that microG is useless or be pragmatic, embrace a larger point of view about the situation, and read the code, that is the beauty of open source.
Google does not limit tracking to logged-in users. Use google search and youtube for a few weeks not logged in but also without privacy browser extensions etc. Targeted ads will certainly appear. I did not at all "pretend microG was useless". Please don't make such false accusations. It does have a usecase. What I am trying to say is things relying on connecting to google should not be marketed as "degoogled". I don't have months of spare time to read that much code, sorry.
Disagreement is something that happens from time to time and is fine.
However accusing someone out of nowhere of having an extreme opinion they did not state at all is not a nice move. Please don't do that to people.
My takeaway from this discussion is I still hope microG will be developed well and improved, and I hope it will be advertised more accurately (or even better improve to the point where "degoogled" is an actually fitting label.)
Searching for easy sharing files and links between devices? KDE Connect is a multi-platform application developed by @kde which facilitates wireless communications and data transfer between devices over local networks.
agree with this. Curating your own feed is not that difficult. We have the tools. We have the network. We do not need an algo. 
fine just the way they are at helping me fund cool people. 
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Article version of my "Demo post from Hubzilla"
hub.netzgemeinde.euEma エマ likes this.
Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •@fediversenews
Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢
in reply to Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢 • • •@fediversenews
𐑝𐑧𐑜𐑭 𐑓𐑘𐑹𐑛 ✡️🇵🇸
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Jupiter Rowland
in reply to 𐑝𐑧𐑜𐑭 𐑓𐑘𐑹𐑛 ✡️🇵🇸 • • •I've written the post and my comments on Hubzilla's Web interface through Mozilla Firefox on a desktop PC running Debian GNU/Linux. Nothing mobile involved here.
♾️ 스노 (雪亮 Yuki) 🔏 🌟
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢
in reply to ♾️ 스노 (雪亮 Yuki) 🔏 🌟 • • •#Hubzilla, #Friendica, #Misskey, #Calckey, and of course #Pixelfed, to mention a few, can attach more than four (4) images. But once it shows up in a Mastodon-powered instance, attachments 5 and up are discarded to the void.
Sadly, I can't test how it looks like in Pleroma and forks. I tried it in two Soapbox instances, the first one unfortunately is too slow (not sure what happened to that instance), and in the second instance, your post is not showing up even if searched via URL.
@youronlyone@hashi.icu @jupiter_rowland @fediversenews
like this
_jayrope and Langdon Alger like this.
Lapineige
in reply to Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢 • • •cc @fediversenews
Lapineige
in reply to Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢 • • •cc @fediversenews
Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢
in reply to Lapineige • • •@youronlyone@hashi.icu @jupiter_rowland @fediversenews
Lapineige
in reply to Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢 • • •Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Lapineige • • •Okay, Akkoma seems to interpret the UTF-8 in the summary as ASCII, or it doesn't expect punctuation.
Mentions and hashtags look like on Hubzilla. The title is recognised and converted; I guess it contains a link to the original, and if that's the case, that's nice.
Horizontal lines work, bold type works, italics don't, underline does, strikethrough doesn't. Typefaces don't, but I didn't really expect this to work easily everywhere, especially not on mobile devices. Text sizes and headlines don't work either.
Both types of code block work, and they're shown differently. I would have loved to demo code highlighting, but I had no reference code at hand.
Text colours and highlighting colours don't work.
The digits are surprisingly huge, they should be 40x60 or so. But they are where I've put them, only tha... show more
Okay, Akkoma seems to interpret the UTF-8 in the summary as ASCII, or it doesn't expect punctuation.
Mentions and hashtags look like on Hubzilla. The title is recognised and converted; I guess it contains a link to the original, and if that's the case, that's nice.
Horizontal lines work, bold type works, italics don't, underline does, strikethrough doesn't. Typefaces don't, but I didn't really expect this to work easily everywhere, especially not on mobile devices. Text sizes and headlines don't work either.
Both types of code block work, and they're shown differently. I would have loved to demo code highlighting, but I had no reference code at hand.
Text colours and highlighting colours don't work.
The digits are surprisingly huge, they should be 40x60 or so. But they are where I've put them, only that I didn't centre them.
Quotes work including names and nesting. Spoilers are recognised, but open by default.
Again, I didn't expect tables to work, but I'm surprised to see the same huge gap on top as on Hubzilla.
All lists are converted to bullet points, but lists work.
Video embedding doesn't, but it gives you the URLs.
If the Hubzilla trickery had worked, I would have been very surprised.
On a sidenote, I am actually surprised to see your pictures in the correct order, even though they're all put above the text again. Above posts from Mastodon and MissKey, they come in reverse order. I guess another bug report is due.
Lapineige
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •I can try later with Akkoma/Pleroma default front-end.
Try the reverse should be interesting. I'm not sure Hubzilla interprets markdown formatted content from Pleroma/Akkoma/Misskey/Calckey with 100% compatibility.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Lapineige • • •Maria Karlsen likes this.
Lapineige
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •edit : ok others can see it.
Flatbush Gardener 🌈
in reply to Lapineige • • •@jupiter_rowland
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Lapineige • • •Stark
in reply to Lapineige • • •I actually like it. It stops people from posting something, has it boosted, and then changes the content.
Other users can only see an "edited" tag. They can't easily see what the original content was, but you will be able to do it with the #Mastodon #API, I think.
@jupiter_rowland
caos
in reply to Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢 • • •Here I had also tried to illustrate with a few screenshots how posts from #Peertube, #WriteFreely, #Mobilizon etc. look from the perspective of Mastodon, Hubzilla, Friendica and Calckey: https://metalhead.club/@caos/109779354954001465 @youronlyone@hashi.icu @jupiter_rowland @fediversenews
Scott M. Stolz likes this.
Yohan Yuki Xieㆍ사요한・謝雪矢
in reply to caos • • •Hmm… we need to put the images together somewhere. I'll submit it to webarchives, too.
@youronlyone@hashi.icu @jupiter_rowland @fediversenews
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to ♾️ 스노 (雪亮 Yuki) 🔏 🌟 • • •censored for “transphobia”
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Maria Karlsen
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •𐑝𐑧𐑜𐑭 𐑓𐑘𐑹𐑛 ✡️🇵🇸
in reply to Maria Karlsen • • •Jupiter Rowland
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Hubzilla will show this comment itself hidden behind a content warning.
Also, notice the title. You can't see anything like this on Mastodon.
This and the following screenshots were taken in Firefox on Debian GNU/Linux on a desktop computer.
Jupiter Rowland - jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
hub.netzgemeinde.euJupiter Rowland
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •What is shown additionally now is what is known as a content warning or CW on Mastodon. On Hubzilla, this very same feature has been a summary for very long posts since before Mastodon was launched.
The blue label below has to be clicked to get past the summary and see the post itself.
Jupiter Rowland - jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
hub.netzgemeinde.euJupiter Rowland
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •I've manually stitched this together in GIMP from about ten screenshots.
Way down, you'll discover a closed spoiler. The next picture will show it after having been opened.
Jupiter Rowland - jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
hub.netzgemeinde.euJupiter Rowland
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Jupiter Rowland - jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
hub.netzgemeinde.euMaria Karlsen
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Maria Karlsen - shimriez@zotum.net
zotum.netFeralRobots
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Content warning: Hubzilla refers to this as a "summary" and not a "CW"
@fediversenews
Csepp 🌢
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Ema エマ
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •[table border=1][tr][td]text[/td][/tr][/table]
Fediverse News reshared this.
Maria Karlsen
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Scott M. Stolz likes this.
notsoloud
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Content warning: Hubzilla refers to this as a "summary" and not a "CW"
The quotes work also.
@fediversenews
neue medienordnung plus
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •#ChatBotHubzilla #ChatGPT #ChatGPTDiary #Fediverse #Fediverse #HubzillaPromotion #JupiterRowland #JupiterRowland #Meteor
Zach777
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Maria Karlsen likes this.
Fediverse News reshared this.
_jayrope
in reply to Zach777 • • •You should try. It can even quote you.
benny
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Content warning: Hubzilla refers to this as a "summary" and not a "CW"
_jayrope
in reply to benny • • •Your comment (not quoted here for reference) is hilarious. There's no end to any possible development in open source social media.
You are talking about two commercial products, with ad budgets & profit interest involved. And no say whatsoever for customers using these products.
All measured just in money.
Federated social media doesn't work like this. Luckily. Here you can have impact, if you act. Take that chance and use it.
Jupiter Rowland likes this.
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to _jayrope • • •Video2000 was incompatible with VHS. If you wanted to use both standards, you needed recorders and tapes for both.
#Hubzilla is compatible with #Mastodon as our posts prove. You can connect to just about everyone on Mastodon while still keeping using Hubzilla.
Besides, Hubzilla isn't just fancier Mastodon. Hubzilla isn't just microblogging. If you switched from Hubzilla to Mastodon, you'd lose more than text formatting. You'd lose boatloads of features which Mastodon can't realistically hope to replace, from multiple channels on one login to articles and wikis to full and proven #NomadicIdentity.
Mastodon can't and won't displace Hubzilla.
Scott M. Stolz likes this.
_jayrope
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •You're so nice (to me being a HZ user/admin).
BUT: Let's be fair. All of those different ideas of most probably a similar concept
should coexist and interact at their best, not fight.
benny
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Now I went to a new server and use yunohost for my online stuff, but I haven't yet figured out how to migrate my old install to the yunohost instance
_jayrope
in reply to benny • • •benny
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Scott M. Stolz likes this.
Langdon Alger
in reply to benny • • •Maria Karlsen
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •Maria Karlsen
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •You don't have to switch. You can use both.
like this
_jayrope and Langdon Alger like this.
Zach777
in reply to Maria Karlsen • • •_jayrope
in reply to Zach777 • • •Zach777
in reply to _jayrope • • •_jayrope
in reply to Zach777 • • •Hoster is hostforweb.com, account type is Business Pro, you'll have no root access, but terminal for HZ and a Cpanel to assist. Has a git.
Sympahic Russians in upstate NY.
I'm good with them.
Zach777
in reply to _jayrope • • •_jayrope
in reply to Zach777 • • •Scott M. Stolz
in reply to Jupiter Rowland • • •I could save a lot of money by self-hosting at home, but I don't think it is allowed by my ISP (on the plan I am on).