Let us never forget that the Ukrainian tribe forces its male members to not leave their tribe. To stay and fight. This is an act of terror, of extreme barbarism. If I, as a male that am part of a tribe (without my consent, I was just born there), am forced to stay and fight (perhaps die) for this tribe, then fuck this tribe.
Say if 80% of all Ukrainian males wanted to not put up a fight and leave, then respect that. It means that Ukraine doesn't want to fight. Deal with it. They talk about democracy, freedom, and other bullshit like that, but this is so far from these ideals that we can't see them even with a telescope.
It is the same way that the Russian males were forced (probably) to be part of the army and go fight the Ukrainian males. All of these are clear signs of primitivism.
We should now focus on killing cancer, and dropping space probes on the Europa moon to search for other forms of life. And yet we kill humans and drop bombs on cities, to destroy us and the infrastructure.
A pathetic species.
We need to make humans realize these primitivisms.... #tromlive
like this
reshared this
Alexander
in reply to Tio • • •Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •we know those who does, by names. so why should people get into this hell for no reasons and get all these killer sanctions, when all the world know the criminals that are in charge for this happening. this is a queation. a question about money. cui bono, as Romans said. look who's interesred. and I see people ready to supply weapons (not as a free help, for money, of course!). and I see those who make money on blood and tears. and we all know who are that people. so why this all happens and how can we stop the madness?
like this
Alexander and Aaron like this.
Aaron
in reply to Iron Bug • • •How can we stop the madness? That's tricky and I have no answer to that except to make people aware that trade is the problem and that we need to make it obsolete. Many projects are working in this direction and we try to highlight them in the trade-free directory: directory.trade-free.org/
Tio likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Aaron
in reply to Iron Bug • • •Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •you can find a little wild apple in a forest. but if you wanna get a good big apple you have to work, to fertilize the soil and so on. for free is only wild nature. everything made by people costs resources - i.e. money. time is also money. people may spend it for work or for hobbies. but hobbies don't provide food for anybody.
Fede likes this.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •You do not have to trade anything to use wikipedia. Am I correct? Do you give them anything? No. That means, for you, Wikipedia is trade-free. Yes Wikipedia trades for some of their services, but am not talking about that.
I write many books, see tromsite.com/books/. I give them for free. I call that being trade-free because I do not collect your data, insert ads, whatever. You do not have to give me anything in return for these books. There is no trade between you and me. Thus, my books are trade-free for you. Where am I not clear?
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Trade was good, maybe until some 300 years ago. Now we have so much stuff that we throw mountains of waste. Trade made us produce so much stuff, and thus we waste so much stuff. Why should we still trade for this abundance?
Trade also makes us behave badly because it forces us to lie, deceive, exaggerate, corrupt or be corrupted. If I sell potatoes I can't afford to tell my customers to go to the other company because they have better and cheaper potatoes. I need to pay my rent you know...so you can't be honest in this system. As a matter of fact I gathered mountains of evidence about how trade is the origin of most problems. See this core book tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-d… and I am fully open to criticism.
Been working on these for at least a decade and I never traded my work for anything. Never. I am supported solely via donations.
EDIT: I didn't mean to say "Trade was good, maybe until some 300 years ago". I mean tot say trade was useful. It still created a fuck ton of mess, slaves, corruption, and so forth.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Also by no mean trade-free means we should go back to the ancient times. Not at all. Like we showcase here directory.trade-free.org/ there are many many many specialists out there doing trade free goods/services. From software to healthcare. The more of them, the more the rings in a chain will connect and a longer chain of trade-free will be created.
Example: I get trade-free healthcare here in Spain. I do nothing in order to get it. I also get trade-free accommodation and internet (a place to stay). This is because others provide these for me. This allows me to have a lot more time and create the tons of projects (30-40) we have. See tromsite.com/ and tromsite.com/tools . Others can use these and not have to trade for netflix, google products, and so forth. Thus, more time for them to create other trade-free goods/s
... show moreAlso by no mean trade-free means we should go back to the ancient times. Not at all. Like we showcase here directory.trade-free.org/ there are many many many specialists out there doing trade free goods/services. From software to healthcare. The more of them, the more the rings in a chain will connect and a longer chain of trade-free will be created.
Example: I get trade-free healthcare here in Spain. I do nothing in order to get it. I also get trade-free accommodation and internet (a place to stay). This is because others provide these for me. This allows me to have a lot more time and create the tons of projects (30-40) we have. See tromsite.com/ and tromsite.com/tools . Others can use these and not have to trade for netflix, google products, and so forth. Thus, more time for them to create other trade-free goods/services. The more we engage in this dance, the more we detach from trade.
At the end of the day we are talking about motivation. A skilled surgeon or software engineer are not eating the money to get their energy and motivation to do skilled things, it is about them wanting to do these. And many already do. We have to make the rest not do their skilled work just because they want another smartphone that's injected into their heads via ads, but because they enjoy their work.
muppeth
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to muppeth • •I think you are interpreting this in a very weird way. I am talking about how this service is for you, the one using it. How can this be so confusing to you is beyond me. It is like saying Disroot doesn't use FOSS software because that software was made on computers that run Windows, and the Disroot server is on a computer with non-open-source hardware. And then accusing you of leeching on proprietary software and hardware to make your FOSS software. This is of course an extreme viewpoint that leads to nowhere. With your thinking there will never be anything that's FOSS, or free for that matter.
How can we then call these two?
1. In USA if you get sick, you have to pay money for it to go to the hospital.
2. In Spain, if you get sick, you don't pay anything (not even taxes), just go to the hospital.
These are very different services for you, the human. With real life implications. The systems are different for you. In USA you could die or get in a very bad health. In Spain you won't.
In your world I should call both of these services as "paid"? If so, the di
... show moreI think you are interpreting this in a very weird way. I am talking about how this service is for you, the one using it. How can this be so confusing to you is beyond me. It is like saying Disroot doesn't use FOSS software because that software was made on computers that run Windows, and the Disroot server is on a computer with non-open-source hardware. And then accusing you of leeching on proprietary software and hardware to make your FOSS software. This is of course an extreme viewpoint that leads to nowhere. With your thinking there will never be anything that's FOSS, or free for that matter.
How can we then call these two?
1. In USA if you get sick, you have to pay money for it to go to the hospital.
2. In Spain, if you get sick, you don't pay anything (not even taxes), just go to the hospital.
These are very different services for you, the human. With real life implications. The systems are different for you. In USA you could die or get in a very bad health. In Spain you won't.
In your world I should call both of these services as "paid"? If so, the difference between them is simply dismissed.
muppeth
in reply to Tio • • •I dont think youunderstand me either. Disroot is using floss software desite whether it was made on windows or linux or mac. it used floss components to build it. plus its secondary. even without windows it would be possible to write all software.
healthcare example is different. both US and Spains healthcare is not free. the difference is how its funded. in US its totally privatised while in Spain it's funded from taxes collectively. both arent free because both cost money. the second one is more social oriented as it spreads the weight of the cost on everyone through taxation of population. if everyone or majority stops paying taxes the healthcare system in spain would collapse. so at th end you do pay for it. not directly in form of the bill like in US but taxes. but its not trade free!
Tio
in reply to muppeth • •Using your logic, if whatever disroot is using was made with proprietary operating systems, and closed source hardware, then you cannot claim that disrtoot uses floss. There is nothing "free" about that floss with your logic, since someone paid for that software somehow. Plus, there is nothing "open" since closed source software and computers have been used to create it. See? There is no way around this using your logic.
And why is that? Because, in time, more and more components of an OS + Software became Open Source, allowing you today to have an ecosystem of Open Source software, including a kernel and an OS. Thus, allowing you to build FLOSS inside of such an environment.
And we can try and do the same for other goods and services. In order to create trade-free you need to use "trade-based". Same way in order to create open-source, you need to use "closed-source". At least in the beginning.
With the healthcare example you are again missing my point entirely. I am aski
... show moreUsing your logic, if whatever disroot is using was made with proprietary operating systems, and closed source hardware, then you cannot claim that disrtoot uses floss. There is nothing "free" about that floss with your logic, since someone paid for that software somehow. Plus, there is nothing "open" since closed source software and computers have been used to create it. See? There is no way around this using your logic.
And why is that? Because, in time, more and more components of an OS + Software became Open Source, allowing you today to have an ecosystem of Open Source software, including a kernel and an OS. Thus, allowing you to build FLOSS inside of such an environment.
And we can try and do the same for other goods and services. In order to create trade-free you need to use "trade-based". Same way in order to create open-source, you need to use "closed-source". At least in the beginning.
With the healthcare example you are again missing my point entirely. I am asking how are these systems FOR ME. ;) . I understand how they work, you don't have to repeat that. But for me the Spain one is a lot more advantageous since it is "free". Or trade-free. Forget about who what pays for and where.
If companies won't make laptops and servers, if they won't hire people, if they won't invest in open source, then most FLOSS will collapse. So? That's derailing from the conversation quite a lot. FLOSS is still important and we can call it as such and make sense of it. Same with trade-free. And the more we push it, hopefully, the less reliant we will be on trade or proprietary software and hardware.
So, you cannot argue with me that the spanish healthcare system is not trade-free for me. Because for me it is. Same is Wikipedia and Linux and so forth. I do not trade for me, thus for me they are trade-free. How can you argue against that? :)
Sasha likes this.
Tio
in reply to muppeth • •Totally besides the point. If big companies won't invest in open source, if there won't be proprietary hardware and software, then FOSS won't exist. So? It is still FOSS for me. We should still celebrate, embrace, and push forward the FOSS approach. Maybe the more FOS hardware and software we have, the less reliance on proprietary ones.
Same with healthcare or anything. The more volunteers, automation, and resources we have, the less the reliance on trade.
muppeth
in reply to Tio • • •What do you mean that FOSS would not exist without big companies pomping money into it. FLOSS existed without huge funding from big tech and IMO it was doing pretty well and was ruined to some degree by big tech leaching on it. In fact FLOSS was there before propertary licencing was a thing so Dont know what is your comparison here. Your connection between two things (floss, free-trade) I think assumes that FLOSS is trade-free which it isn’t at all. Most of the things you use daily, exists because there is enough funding to the project funneled. Whether it’s the for-profit operations of the company (nextcloud), or VC funding (matrix), none of those would exist in the shape and form we see today if it werent for funding. The fact you dont pay for it directly does not mean no tradeis involved. It’s another IMO flawed way of looking at things (“I dont pay for it therefore trade free”) without looking at bigger picture.
Hardware is much more complex showing also that trade-free is just populist idea. Unlike software or creative products like art, bo
... show moreWhat do you mean that FOSS would not exist without big companies pomping money into it. FLOSS existed without huge funding from big tech and IMO it was doing pretty well and was ruined to some degree by big tech leaching on it. In fact FLOSS was there before propertary licencing was a thing so Dont know what is your comparison here. Your connection between two things (floss, free-trade) I think assumes that FLOSS is trade-free which it isn’t at all. Most of the things you use daily, exists because there is enough funding to the project funneled. Whether it’s the for-profit operations of the company (nextcloud), or VC funding (matrix), none of those would exist in the shape and form we see today if it werent for funding. The fact you dont pay for it directly does not mean no tradeis involved. It’s another IMO flawed way of looking at things (“I dont pay for it therefore trade free”) without looking at bigger picture.
Hardware is much more complex showing also that trade-free is just populist idea. Unlike software or creative products like art, books and so, hardware as the name suggests, needs real tenable goods to make it, specially on large scale. This is where very complex chain of supplies come in play. Try to tell the guy in the mine “ask nothing in return” as if he enjoys mining minerals for your computer every day. Not to mention even more shitty jobs required for your computer to arrive at your desk.
And yes, volunteer work, charities are amazing, needed and I would wish everyone on earth would participate in some form of it, to make the world a better place for everyone. But that work is made possible exactly because people can afford to spend their free time on it. Or to donate surplus of their wealth to those that dont have it or are in need.
As for your example with healthcare. I think you dont understand the point I am trying to bring across (again). Healthcare is a bad example because neither Spain’s nor US system is free. The difference is how both systems are funded. In US it’s totally privatized while in Spain it’s funded collectively through taxes. But both are not free as they cost money. Money you pay either directly (US) or through taxes (Spain). Tax aproach spreads the weight of the costs on entire population. It’s more just and social as there is a window for those who cant afford it to have it as well. But if critical mass of those not paying for it (in taxes) would be reached the system would collapse. So you can’t call it free-trade! A doctor would not do it if he wouldn’t get paid for it (even the charity one). It as not free as facebook isn’t free. There you also dont pay to use it directly right?
Disroot is using FLOSS software despite whether it was physically typed on mac, windows or linux. You need to use open source components to make it work (compilers, languages etc), so even without windows it would be possible to make it.
like this
Fede, Iron Bug and MovedSinyx like this.
Tio
in reply to muppeth • •There are no trades between me and the service/good. How is that not getting to you is beyond me. Are you telling me that when I use Wikipedia or go to the hospital here, I have to trade for it? I? How? Tell me.
Another derailing. I am saying we should TRY and provide trade-free goods and services. If this poor guy in the mine would have access trade-free to healthcare, and his basic needs, he won't do that job in the first place. Thus, we aim at eliminating slavery. Does this mean no more computers because now we can't have slaves? I doubt. computers/hardware will be made but without abusing humans as much.
... show moreExactly, so the more trade-free goods/services you have access to, the more free time
There are no trades between me and the service/good. How is that not getting to you is beyond me. Are you telling me that when I use Wikipedia or go to the hospital here, I have to trade for it? I? How? Tell me.
Another derailing. I am saying we should TRY and provide trade-free goods and services. If this poor guy in the mine would have access trade-free to healthcare, and his basic needs, he won't do that job in the first place. Thus, we aim at eliminating slavery. Does this mean no more computers because now we can't have slaves? I doubt. computers/hardware will be made but without abusing humans as much.
Exactly, so the more trade-free goods/services you have access to, the more free time to create more yourself. That's how I manage to do a lot of projects and make them all trade-free.
I can. The healthcare system in Spain is trade-free FOR ME. :) There is no way around it because it simply is. I trade nothing to them, and yet I have access to it.
This is a different subject from the above one. And it is an interesting discussion. There are tons of doctors (see doctors without borders for examples) that work without wanting anything in return. We should try and create a society where humans work because they enjoy doing it, not because they want a new car. Doing surgery because you want to buy a new BMW is a bad incentive that scaled on a global scale creates a lot of destruction.
Like Doctors Without Borders showcase, it is totally possible to have a healthcare system where you do not tax anyone, trade-free. Same as your example above "would be possible to make it". ;)
muppeth
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to muppeth • •So you agree that for me is trade-free. Finally :).
Now what happens behind the scenes is another story. I am talking about the nature of these services for the ones using them, of course. Else we go nowhere. Else nothing in the world can be labeled as "free" or "open source" or whatever else, if you look at how these goods/services are created.
You go for an extreme view that is very unrealistic.
In the same way that FOSS emerged from a closed source software world, and it is still emerging and improving, we need to let trade-free goods/service emerge from the trade-based world. Little by little.
muppeth
in reply to Tio • • •well in that case you agree that facebook is trade free since "I" dont pay for it.
also speaking of derailing, I dont get why u bring floss to all of it. floss is software licencing that gives certain rights to the owner of the software. nothing more. it does not mention at all how it as made and using what tools and has nothing to do with trade either. you on the other hand propose new economic solution. so if your idea is based on 'i dont pay therefore trade free' then sure thats one way of looking at things. shallow and simplistc but if it rocks your boat.....
Tio
in reply to muppeth • •No. I trade my attention and data to facebook. I have no choice. But I do not trade my data, attention, or currency to the Spanish healthcare system.
Trade-Free does not mention about how a product is created or what product it is. It means you, the one using this good/service, do not have to trade for it. I use that example to showcase that Open Source Software has been reliant and still is on proprietary software and hardware, and yet we agree to give it a name "open source" and understand its value. Same way that trade-free goods/services have been reliant and still are on trade, but we have to agree to give it a name and see its value.
... show moreNo, my
No. I trade my attention and data to facebook. I have no choice. But I do not trade my data, attention, or currency to the Spanish healthcare system.
Trade-Free does not mention about how a product is created or what product it is. It means you, the one using this good/service, do not have to trade for it. I use that example to showcase that Open Source Software has been reliant and still is on proprietary software and hardware, and yet we agree to give it a name "open source" and understand its value. Same way that trade-free goods/services have been reliant and still are on trade, but we have to agree to give it a name and see its value.
No, my argument (not idea) is that if I do not trade for something (my currency, my data, attention and so forth) then that good/service is TRADE-FREE for me. As simple as that. And it is not at all shallow I have written thousands of pages about it and showcased examples of, and why this idea is so important. tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-d…
Made many videos and documentaries and all that. We use thousands of examples and walk that talk by creating, ourselves, trade-free services.
Sasha likes this.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •One more example: Open Source Software.
If a piece of software has its code open for all to see, we call it open source. Let's keep it simple as that, I know there are some licenses out there. Now, if this piece of open source software is made on a computer with closed source hardware, and a closed source operating system, does this mean that the end result, that piece of software, is not open source despite the fact that it publishes its code for all to see?
That's what we mean by trade-free, the end result, the thing you interact with, not the entire process of creating that thing. I hope it clarifies things more.
Rokosun likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •like this
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 and Rokosun like this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •everything is paid for. just some things are not evidently seen at first glance.
Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Rokosun likes this.
Rokosun
in reply to Iron Bug • •Let me give you a different example that's a bit easier to understand:
There is a recycling machine that can recycle plastic, but this machine itself is not made out of recycled materials. So does that mean the plastic is not really "recycled" just because we depend on non-recycled materials to make them ?
If we just look at the end result, then we can call it "recycled plastic". The same way, we look at the end result as "trade-free" when the good/service ask nothing in return from the receiver. The entire process of producing something may not be trade-free, but the end result surely is.
The dependency on trade will reduce as more and more things become trade-free, if at least the most basic necessities like food, shelter, etc is available as trade-free, then it'll make a huge difference because more people could volunteer without having to do a side-job for survival. But none of this is gonna happen until we see trade as a problem and try to get rid of it. Change will happen very slowly, just look at the free software movement, we're nowhere near replacing all pr
... show moreLet me give you a different example that's a bit easier to understand:
There is a recycling machine that can recycle plastic, but this machine itself is not made out of recycled materials. So does that mean the plastic is not really "recycled" just because we depend on non-recycled materials to make them ?
If we just look at the end result, then we can call it "recycled plastic". The same way, we look at the end result as "trade-free" when the good/service ask nothing in return from the receiver. The entire process of producing something may not be trade-free, but the end result surely is.
The dependency on trade will reduce as more and more things become trade-free, if at least the most basic necessities like food, shelter, etc is available as trade-free, then it'll make a huge difference because more people could volunteer without having to do a side-job for survival. But none of this is gonna happen until we see trade as a problem and try to get rid of it. Change will happen very slowly, just look at the free software movement, we're nowhere near replacing all proprietary software with FOSS ones, but it certainly had a big impact when people started seeing "proprietary software" as a problem and tried to get rid of it, the change maybe slow but the free software movement is definitely growing as more and more FOSS programs pop up everyday. In a way, the trade-free movement is trying to achieve the same thing that free software movement did, but with trade instead of proprietary software.
Tio likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Rokosun • • •I'm mathematician. don't try to fool me with fake logic. it does not work.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •And they can do the work because they want to do the work. Win win. No need to pay them, and they will probably have a better life because they are not forced to trade (work for something else).
Iron Bug
in reply to Rokosun • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •This to me is almost as you saying the Earth is flat.
I don't even know where to begin with. So let me give you my life as an example. I have created a lot of books, videos, and tools for the past 15 or so years. I do not want to trade them for anything. Because I want everyone to access them. That hurts me no end. I can't find a place for me in this society because I cannot afford a life. Tell me why is this happening to me when all I want is to help others and create good stuff for everyone!?
Now, deeper, think about how no one in this world can survive unless they trade. That sentence alone should raise a huge and loud alarm bell. In a world where we throw some 50% of all edible food, where there are more homes than homeless people, more boats and cars and gadgets than anyone can use. We we throw mountains of garbage, while at the same time 100+ million people are homeless, some 9 million die of starvation yearly, some 1 billion dont have access to electricity and clean water....
How can we force humans to still trade even for their basic needs, in a society o
... show moreThis to me is almost as you saying the Earth is flat.
I don't even know where to begin with. So let me give you my life as an example. I have created a lot of books, videos, and tools for the past 15 or so years. I do not want to trade them for anything. Because I want everyone to access them. That hurts me no end. I can't find a place for me in this society because I cannot afford a life. Tell me why is this happening to me when all I want is to help others and create good stuff for everyone!?
Now, deeper, think about how no one in this world can survive unless they trade. That sentence alone should raise a huge and loud alarm bell. In a world where we throw some 50% of all edible food, where there are more homes than homeless people, more boats and cars and gadgets than anyone can use. We we throw mountains of garbage, while at the same time 100+ million people are homeless, some 9 million die of starvation yearly, some 1 billion dont have access to electricity and clean water....
How can we force humans to still trade even for their basic needs, in a society of abundance? Explain that to me please.
How can you say no one is forced to trade when no one has any other choice in order to survive and thrive in this society. This is perhaps the most infuriating claim I've seen.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •My friend, how can you say that nobody is forced to trade in our world? Are you like Russia saying that nobody in Ukraine has died? Or that they are not at war, this is a special intervention in Ukraine to free the people there?
Are you serious that people are not forced to trade? What are my options then? Enlighten me. Say I do not trade because I refuse to. Then what happens to me? Become one with Earth?
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •in my model it's pretty fine and works well for all the years I work. in you model it seems something weird.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •we, programmers, work, earn money and can afford to spend some spare time like weekends for free software. but free software does not make a dinner, does not provides computers for programming or servers for you to be able to write these messages. this is all paid by admins of servers, by developers and by people that donmate MONEY to opensource. I emphasize the word money. nobody wants donating books or something. this won't help in servers support in any way.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •No idea what you are trying to argue here. I have my own instance, this one am using, and some 500 users use it. I have many instances see trom.tf/ - I know very well. But what's your point?
We provide them as trade-free for anyone. We ask nothing in return for these services. You get my point?
Georgi likes this.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Damn finally I am relaxed now. 100 million homeless people while having more homes than that. 50% of edible food wasted while 9 million die of starvation yearly. climate change, corruption on all levels; throwing 300 cruise-ships of electronics every year and 500 of textiles; the forever chemicals, plastic contaminating everywhere, inequality rising, biodiversity loss.
But hey, "this is fine. nobody has troubles with this."
Cheers mate!
Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •and if you wanna tell me that socialistic lies - thanks, no need. I firmly stand for capitalism. we had that communistic/socialistic crap in this country for decades. I won't let it back. no way! this shit must die, forever.
I'm happy I can work for normal capitalist companies and to provide good network for the whole world, for all people that need it. all one needs in capitalist world is not being a lazy arse that does nothing and wants to get everything for free. nothing is free. it's an illusion. we don't have slaves, we have to work to earn anything for ourselves. some people don't want to work and live in poverty. well, this is not a problem of trade or money per se. yes, in some countries political system is oppressive and cleptocratic. over here they try to resurrect USSR and this is terrible, this means socialism and total poverty again. if this happens (I hope not) again I will move abroad, for sure.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Money is an arbitrary measure of work, but also of other things such as art, other currencies, speculation, assets, etc.. That's why a painting can be worth as much money as saving 1 million lives from starvation. There is nothing fair here. And money only has value in terms of trade. And the values it has created in people's heads, are insane.
No idea why you are now going into football fans mode of "isms". I did read and wrote a bunch about the invention of sch "isms" see this book tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-d…
I am not swimming into such waters of discussions.
I see where you are coming from. All of the poor people in the world salute you. They agree, they are all lazy. Talk about making silly comments...
You know, despite you being so simple minded about this, I much prefer to see humans doing nothing, to stay around and watch the sky and wonder what's
... show moreMoney is an arbitrary measure of work, but also of other things such as art, other currencies, speculation, assets, etc.. That's why a painting can be worth as much money as saving 1 million lives from starvation. There is nothing fair here. And money only has value in terms of trade. And the values it has created in people's heads, are insane.
No idea why you are now going into football fans mode of "isms". I did read and wrote a bunch about the invention of sch "isms" see this book tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-d…
I am not swimming into such waters of discussions.
I see where you are coming from. All of the poor people in the world salute you. They agree, they are all lazy. Talk about making silly comments...
You know, despite you being so simple minded about this, I much prefer to see humans doing nothing, to stay around and watch the sky and wonder what's the meaning of life, than keep on being workers and produce more of the useless shit we have today, while having no time for anything else. I'd rather give people their basic needs and see them do nothing, then them destroying their lives, the biodiversity and everything else around.
Ah yes! If we don't work we die, but hey we are not forced to work, we can choose to die. See? We have choices! Smart!
Why should people be forced to work in order to survive? Answer that.
Georgi likes this.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •You mean slavery, climate change, corruption, waste and such? Very simple, humans are forced and entangled with trade, thus they want more for themselves at any costs. That's the incentive. And so oil companies trade oil for fortune, and they don't want to switch to renewables since oil is profitable, it is a good trade for them. Thus the lobby governments to keep that status quo. Also, if it costs me more to recycle my waste than dumping it into the river, then I'll do that. Want more examples? I have written huge books about these. See tromsite.com/books
It is all related to trade of course. That's the foundation of our global societies from china to usa and everything in between.
Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •like this
Georgi and Alexio like this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •but your theory does not fit even into plain everyday experience. so until you have a working plan how to barter code written in C for milk, tomatoes and cheese, I don't wanna proceed with this discussion.
Iron Bug
in reply to Iron Bug • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •It is no problem for you because you don't understand the global impact of this practice. The simple act of eating chocolate means millions of slave children that are on cocoa plantations. That's 1 example. All due to trade, because we trade cocoa for this and that. So people are incentivized to maximize their profits. Slaves are free. That's a great business plan.
You fail to see the consumerism culture that's being created because of trade. The waste, the suffering. That's not a "normal" world, it is a sick world.
Georgi likes this.
Aaron
in reply to Tio • • •Yes, this is something that we need to question: the very notion of trade. It might seem so normal to us and yes it might has been a useful tool for human societies to progress, but we have to question it.
We have large hadron collider, can fly to the moon and mars and created technologies that are astonishing. Yet we see people starving, inequality rising, Bezos, Musk and other billionaires caring mainly about profits instead of the wellbeing of other human being or the planet. Why is that? Well, human behavior is influenced and shaped by the environment and since trade is the very foundation of our societies, it incentivices people to do exactly that (put profit above anything else).
At first it's hard to see it, because trade seems to be eve... show more
Yes, this is something that we need to question: the very notion of trade. It might seem so normal to us and yes it might has been a useful tool for human societies to progress, but we have to question it.
We have large hadron collider, can fly to the moon and mars and created technologies that are astonishing. Yet we see people starving, inequality rising, Bezos, Musk and other billionaires caring mainly about profits instead of the wellbeing of other human being or the planet. Why is that? Well, human behavior is influenced and shaped by the environment and since trade is the very foundation of our societies, it incentivices people to do exactly that (put profit above anything else).
At first it's hard to see it, because trade seems to be everywhere and in so many flavors (data trade, attention trade, social credits, citizenship, cryptocurrencies etc.) but they clearly have negative outcomes.
But if you focus on trade-free goods/services you will find many people and projects working in this direction, like doctors without borders, wikipedia, free software and many other people who do important work without expecting anything in return for that.
like this
Tio and Georgi like this.
Aaron
in reply to Aaron • • •Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Right...you mean the ones who are playing the game and are successful at it, are the most reliable to objectively analyze the game? Sounds really smart.
Also, you can analyze the human suffering without being yourself a sufferer. Since that's what people like Marx have analyzed, the suffering in this "capitalism" (trade based) world.
Georgi likes this.
Aaron
in reply to Iron Bug • • •It looks good in the first place (people have access to cars and can travel more etc.), but what are the consequences of that?
Extraction of fossil fuel which leads to many problems (carbon emissions), massive amounts of cars standing around or not being used most of the day and value distortion of people as they need a new car every 3 years. The economy looks good in the first place (people have jobs, tribes specialize on one thing, others on something else), but if we look deeper, we can find problems behind almost every product (food, clothes, gadgets etc.), like slav... show more
It looks good in the first place (people have access to cars and can travel more etc.), but what are the consequences of that?
Extraction of fossil fuel which leads to many problems (carbon emissions), massive amounts of cars standing around or not being used most of the day and value distortion of people as they need a new car every 3 years. The economy looks good in the first place (people have jobs, tribes specialize on one thing, others on something else), but if we look deeper, we can find problems behind almost every product (food, clothes, gadgets etc.), like slavery, waste, exploitation etc. and for what? Just to keep endless consumption going. And who wins in that game? Pretty much no one, as we all share the same planet, but a very short amount of people gain a lot of power because of that game.
Think about 1% of all people on the planet have more than the other 99% (bbc.com/news/business-35339475). How can people even think this game is fair? That people must work hard to earn a living?
Let's also not forget that this war is very good for the economy! Germany invests 100 billion dollars into the army and after this war is over, building up the economy in Ukraine means growth and profits for people! If I am a weapon manufacturer, I want to have war on this planet, because governments will love to buy my weapons to defend themselves. To have peace and provide the necessities of life for everyone as trade-free is not profitable for a company, so there is no or little incentive to do that.
like this
Tio and Georgi like this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •If this doesn't record in your brain as a proof that this society is fucked up, then you are truly blind. Because you are mainly right in saying that. How unfortunate this is, right?
Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •we see that only capitalist countries live wealthy and have strong economics, with democratic values and a lot of freedom for citizens. and communistic tyrannies are all suppressing their citizens, as slaves, rob them and use murder for terror and keeping up their reign. this is practice.
Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Friend I think you do not know what Marx wrote, and what socialism and communism were about. There was no communism or socialism anywhere, ever. These ideas are indeed shallow, but China, Cuba, Romania and the rest, proclaiming to be communist at some point in time, were as far from the ideas of communism as capitalism is from freedom, or andromeda galaxy is from us.
Speaking of "capitalism" and freedom and democracy, these are nonsense ideas. USA, the "great capitalism" tribe, hosts millions of poor people and has no universal free healthcare, while spending a lot more on weapons of killing people than on those helping them. USA has tremendous inequality and is riddled with corruption. Same is for pretty much all so-called "capitalistic" tribes. I do not know in what fantasy you are living, but next time you talk about freedom go quit your job or do what you love doing, see how free you are to do that. Go travel, see if you hear the word "visa". And tell me when you vote for USA or others going to war or taking any important decision (or any decision for that matter), and t
... show moreFriend I think you do not know what Marx wrote, and what socialism and communism were about. There was no communism or socialism anywhere, ever. These ideas are indeed shallow, but China, Cuba, Romania and the rest, proclaiming to be communist at some point in time, were as far from the ideas of communism as capitalism is from freedom, or andromeda galaxy is from us.
Speaking of "capitalism" and freedom and democracy, these are nonsense ideas. USA, the "great capitalism" tribe, hosts millions of poor people and has no universal free healthcare, while spending a lot more on weapons of killing people than on those helping them. USA has tremendous inequality and is riddled with corruption. Same is for pretty much all so-called "capitalistic" tribes. I do not know in what fantasy you are living, but next time you talk about freedom go quit your job or do what you love doing, see how free you are to do that. Go travel, see if you hear the word "visa". And tell me when you vote for USA or others going to war or taking any important decision (or any decision for that matter), and then I'll listen about your democracy idea.
You must be asleep to believe these dreams about freedom and capitalism.
like this
Sean Tilley, Aaron and Georgi like this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •In your view you'd rather read the books of Musk and Bezos to understand how bad this "capitalism" is, rather than reading the books of those who suffered because of capitalism? Makes no sense.
It is almost like trusting a rapist to tell you about how to behave with women.
Anyway forget about Marx, look at the trade-based society today. It is a pile of poopoo littered with very many bad things. What are we even debating here? That we cannot have any society other than based on trade? Where are we going with this discussion?
Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Iron Bug
in reply to Iron Bug • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Georgi likes this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •Tio
in reply to Iron Bug • •You sent me to the Bible, thanks. Same goes for all religious people.
Also you understood nothing from this discussion. I was never saying we should trade code for milk, or sex for shoes. I am saying the exact opposite. We should go beyond trade and share things, and do more volunteer work, and be free from this trade enslavement. Do it in organized fashion like we showcase here directory.trade-free.org/ . No need to drag a dead and wasteful system of trade into a present where we have so much abundance that we are creating mountains of waste out of it.
Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •Aaron likes this.
Aaron
in reply to Iron Bug • • •Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •like this
Torsten and Aaron like this.
Iron Bug
in reply to Aaron • • •like this
Torsten and Aaron like this.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 reshared this.
Aaron
in reply to Iron Bug • • •