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Let us never forget that the Ukrainian tribe forces its male members to not leave their tribe. To stay and fight. This is an act of terror, of extreme barbarism. If I, as a male that am part of a tribe (without my consent, I was just born there), am forced to stay and fight (perhaps die) for this tribe, then fuck this tribe.

Say if 80% of all Ukrainian males wanted to not put up a fight and leave, then respect that. It means that Ukraine doesn't want to fight. Deal with it. They talk about democracy, freedom, and other bullshit like that, but this is so far from these ideals that we can't see them even with a telescope.

It is the same way that the Russian males were forced (probably) to be part of the army and go fight the Ukrainian males. All of these are clear signs of primitivism.

We should now focus on killing cancer, and dropping space probes on the Europa moon to search for other forms of life. And yet we kill humans and drop bombs on cities, to destroy us and the infrastructure.

A pathetic species.

We need to make humans realize these primitivisms.... #tromlive

in reply to Tio

Yes, it is kind of funny how we consider ourselves more civilized as we get better toys but still have mostly the same ways.
in reply to Tio

the fact is Russians don't want to fight either. many of those kids that were thrown to the war were just forcedly conscribed and made to sign "a contract". nobody wants this war. neither here, nor there.
we know those who does, by names. so why should people get into this hell for no reasons and get all these killer sanctions, when all the world know the criminals that are in charge for this happening. this is a queation. a question about money. cui bono, as Romans said. look who's interesred. and I see people ready to supply weapons (not as a free help, for money, of course!). and I see those who make money on blood and tears. and we all know who are that people. so why this all happens and how can we stop the madness?
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

@Iron Bug clearly, as you are saying: there are people profiting out of that, because of trade - they sell weapons and gain money.
How can we stop the madness? That's tricky and I have no answer to that except to make people aware that trade is the problem and that we need to make it obsolete. Many projects are working in this direction and we try to highlight them in the trade-free directory: directory.trade-free.org/
in reply to Iron Bug

Unfortunately we are having issues with that server. The hosting company seems to experience some issues....should be back soon I am sure.
in reply to Iron Bug

@Iron Bug that link works now again, so you can check out the website. You will discover some amazing projects :)
in reply to Aaron

actually, nothing is "trade-free". developers of open source don't eat solar power. they earn money and use their spare time for something they like. this is how opensource exists. but somebody pays for all these servers on Fediverse. and these money are earned by people. and this is commercial basis of everything in the world.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

Trade-free is trade-free for the end user. For me it is trade free if I do not have to trade for that good or service. Like Wikipedia is for example. I do not have to give them anything in return for that service. Yes, wikipedia uses some servers and trades for them (money), but their service for others is trade free. Understand?
in reply to Tio

it's pity you don't understand. wikipedia collected donates. they cannot live on solar power.
you can find a little wild apple in a forest. but if you wanna get a good big apple you have to work, to fertilize the soil and so on. for free is only wild nature. everything made by people costs resources - i.e. money. time is also money. people may spend it for work or for hobbies. but hobbies don't provide food for anybody.
in reply to Iron Bug

You do not have to trade anything to use wikipedia. Am I correct? Do you give them anything? No. That means, for you, Wikipedia is trade-free. Yes Wikipedia trades for some of their services, but am not talking about that.

I write many books, see tromsite.com/books/. I give them for free. I call that being trade-free because I do not collect your data, insert ads, whatever. You do not have to give me anything in return for these books. There is no trade between you and me. Thus, my books are trade-free for you. Where am I not clear?

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Tio

in reply to Iron Bug

Trade was good, maybe until some 300 years ago. Now we have so much stuff that we throw mountains of waste. Trade made us produce so much stuff, and thus we waste so much stuff. Why should we still trade for this abundance?

Trade also makes us behave badly because it forces us to lie, deceive, exaggerate, corrupt or be corrupted. If I sell potatoes I can't afford to tell my customers to go to the other company because they have better and cheaper potatoes. I need to pay my rent you know...so you can't be honest in this system. As a matter of fact I gathered mountains of evidence about how trade is the origin of most problems. See this core book tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-d… and I am fully open to criticism.

Been working on these for at least a decade and I never traded my work for anything. Never. I am supported solely via donations.

EDIT: I didn't mean to say "Trade was good, maybe until some 300 years ago". I mean tot say trade was useful. It still created a fuck ton of mess, slaves, corruption, and so forth.

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

in reply to Tio

Sorry but this is such a populist post I dont know how you don’t see it really. Your healthcare is paid from taxes paid by everyone in Spain. If you dont pay taxes it only means you are leaching of those that do. If noone would pay taxes there would be no public healthcare because you wouldn’t be able to fund it. Your way of seeing things and presenting things is so shallow and simplified I just cannot pass next to it without commenting on it. With all though respect but you’re wrong if you think public health care is trade-free.
in reply to muppeth

in reply to Tio

I dont think youunderstand me either. Disroot is using floss software desite whether it was made on windows or linux or mac. it used floss components to build it. plus its secondary. even without windows it would be possible to write all software.

healthcare example is different. both US and Spains healthcare is not free. the difference is how its funded. in US its totally privatised while in Spain it's funded from taxes collectively. both arent free because both cost money. the second one is more social oriented as it spreads the weight of the cost on everyone through taxation of population. if everyone or majority stops paying taxes the healthcare system in spain would collapse. so at th end you do pay for it. not directly in form of the bill like in US but taxes. but its not trade free!

in reply to muppeth

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to muppeth

If noone would pay taxes there would be no public healthcare because you wouldn’t be able to fund it.

Totally besides the point. If big companies won't invest in open source, if there won't be proprietary hardware and software, then FOSS won't exist. So? It is still FOSS for me. We should still celebrate, embrace, and push forward the FOSS approach. Maybe the more FOS hardware and software we have, the less reliance on proprietary ones.

Same with healthcare or anything. The more volunteers, automation, and resources we have, the less the reliance on trade.

in reply to Tio

in reply to muppeth

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Tio

but thats the thing. inb your eyes you dont trade directly so its trade free. no it isnt. government of the cuntry you live in is trading for you. soyeah you outsource the trade to third party. does not mean its not happening.
in reply to muppeth

So you agree that for me is trade-free. Finally :).

Now what happens behind the scenes is another story. I am talking about the nature of these services for the ones using them, of course. Else we go nowhere. Else nothing in the world can be labeled as "free" or "open source" or whatever else, if you look at how these goods/services are created.

You go for an extreme view that is very unrealistic.

In the same way that FOSS emerged from a closed source software world, and it is still emerging and improving, we need to let trade-free goods/service emerge from the trade-based world. Little by little.

in reply to Tio

well in that case you agree that facebook is trade free since "I" dont pay for it.

also speaking of derailing, I dont get why u bring floss to all of it. floss is software licencing that gives certain rights to the owner of the software. nothing more. it does not mention at all how it as made and using what tools and has nothing to do with trade either. you on the other hand propose new economic solution. so if your idea is based on 'i dont pay therefore trade free' then sure thats one way of looking at things. shallow and simplistc but if it rocks your boat.....

in reply to muppeth

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

One more example: Open Source Software.

If a piece of software has its code open for all to see, we call it open source. Let's keep it simple as that, I know there are some licenses out there. Now, if this piece of open source software is made on a computer with closed source hardware, and a closed source operating system, does this mean that the end result, that piece of software, is not open source despite the fact that it publishes its code for all to see?

That's what we mean by trade-free, the end result, the thing you interact with, not the entire process of creating that thing. I hope it clarifies things more.

in reply to Tio

and note that people that write articles in Wikipedia paid for their education, without education there's no knowledge and no Wikipedia. so information also costs money, as a fact. just you don't see it.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

Not necessarily. Maybe in USA but in many parts of the world education is free. But that's besides the point. We are talking if something is like this or like that for you, the end user of course. Take a sugar-free chocolate. For me, the one eating the chocolate, it has no sugar. It is sugar free. But am sure in the process of making it they may have used sugar, or the people making it may eat sugary foods, and so forth. But would be ridiculous, just because of that, to call the end product not sugar-free.
in reply to Aaron

if you don't pay for something this does not mean a) nobody pays for this b) nobody sells your data for profit c) nobody uses the resource for influence, propaganda or ads of some things.
everything is paid for. just some things are not evidently seen at first glance.
in reply to Aaron

you cannot run anything in IT without processors, servers, networks, etc. this all is money. a lot of money. and thousands of people maintaining all the structure. and they want to eat. so nithing is free. well, except of sunlight and the weather :) but software definitely takes a lot of efforts and this only may seen "free". it is really just other people's money.
in reply to Iron Bug

If I give you an apple for free. Like, here take it. Would you say it was not free for you just because I had to eat to have energy to give you the apple, and I paid for the food? We are talking about "free for you" or "trade free for you". So yes those services you see in the directory are trade-free for you.
in reply to Iron Bug

in reply to Rokosun

the example is logically wrong. human labor is not material, it cannot be recycled. it's used over and over. partially, we can use automation for changing human labor but then we need the work of mecahnics designers, programmers and those who makes robots themselves. so this is the point.
I'm mathematician. don't try to fool me with fake logic. it does not work.
in reply to Iron Bug

we need the work of mecahnics designers, programmers and those who makes robots themselves


And they can do the work because they want to do the work. Win win. No need to pay them, and they will probably have a better life because they are not forced to trade (work for something else).

in reply to Rokosun

and we pay for human labor, first of all. even to mine some resources a lot of work is needed. and this work is paid. paid on every stage from the basic resources excavation to processing. manufacture, logistics, distribution for end users and possible support.
in reply to Iron Bug

Yes humans are mostly forced in such trades. Which is such a shame and unacceptable, If these people had access as trade-free to their basic needs there are serious chances for them to refuse such jobs. We need to detach humans from forced trade. We need to provide a life for humans, like a basic life at least where their basic needs are met trade-free. Else our society will always rely on slaves and forced labor.
in reply to Tio

nope. nobody is "forced"! this is normal economical model for differentiation of labor. money is just equivalent of human work. one can sell his time and experience and get money, and then exchange it for production made by other people. this is normal. nothing is wrong about it.
in reply to Iron Bug

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Tio

the Earth is flat in your model. in my model the Earh is much more complicated object.
in reply to Iron Bug

My friend, how can you say that nobody is forced to trade in our world? Are you like Russia saying that nobody in Ukraine has died? Or that they are not at war, this is a special intervention in Ukraine to free the people there?

Are you serious that people are not forced to trade? What are my options then? Enlighten me. Say I do not trade because I refuse to. Then what happens to me? Become one with Earth?

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Tio

and I don't need you theories. just explain me, now I can exchange some code in C for food on a market. that's it,
in my model it's pretty fine and works well for all the years I work. in you model it seems something weird.
in reply to Iron Bug

Why aren't you just coding and enjoy doing that? Can you just code and also have access to food? If not then you are trapped and you have to code in exchange for food, else you are fucked. If you don't see this as problematic then you have to think a bit deeper and more carefully.
in reply to Tio

I do. I like my job. but I want to EAT! man, I don't exist virtually here. I have a physical body and I need many things to live: goods, home bills, clothes, technics. this server, at last - you write these messages and they're stored on my server. I PAY for it. so this is not "free messages" or "free Fediverse". everything is paid for by someone.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

You like your job, but you can't do without it. You can't even survive without it. That doesn't sound bad to you at all right?
in reply to Tio

if you're silly and imagine that Fediverse is free like free beer - it's not!
we, programmers, work, earn money and can afford to spend some spare time like weekends for free software. but free software does not make a dinner, does not provides computers for programming or servers for you to be able to write these messages. this is all paid by admins of servers, by developers and by people that donmate MONEY to opensource. I emphasize the word money. nobody wants donating books or something. this won't help in servers support in any way.
in reply to Iron Bug

No idea what you are trying to argue here. I have my own instance, this one am using, and some 500 users use it. I have many instances see trom.tf/ - I know very well. But what's your point?

We provide them as trade-free for anyone. We ask nothing in return for these services. You get my point?

in reply to Iron Bug

And I gave you no theories, just facts. Indeed we waste as much, indeed as many people are suffering. Where are the "theories"?
in reply to Tio

there's no flat Earth, medieval times and barter between manufacturers. flat Earth was the idea of uneducated people that grew food in a garden and didn't had any computers. now we have more complicated economical system, millions of different goods and services available and money as equivalent of our work to exchange it for any necessary goods. this is fine. nobody has troubles with this.
in reply to Iron Bug

this is fine. nobody has troubles with this.


Damn finally I am relaxed now. 100 million homeless people while having more homes than that. 50% of edible food wasted while 9 million die of starvation yearly. climate change, corruption on all levels; throwing 300 cruise-ships of electronics every year and 500 of textiles; the forever chemicals, plastic contaminating everywhere, inequality rising, biodiversity loss.

But hey, "this is fine. nobody has troubles with this."

Cheers mate!

This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Tio

so how this all is connected with diversion of labor and money as measure for human work? abosultely no relations.
and if you wanna tell me that socialistic lies - thanks, no need. I firmly stand for capitalism. we had that communistic/socialistic crap in this country for decades. I won't let it back. no way! this shit must die, forever.
I'm happy I can work for normal capitalist companies and to provide good network for the whole world, for all people that need it. all one needs in capitalist world is not being a lazy arse that does nothing and wants to get everything for free. nothing is free. it's an illusion. we don't have slaves, we have to work to earn anything for ourselves. some people don't want to work and live in poverty. well, this is not a problem of trade or money per se. yes, in some countries political system is oppressive and cleptocratic. over here they try to resurrect USSR and this is terrible, this means socialism and total poverty again. if this happens (I hope not) again I will move abroad, for sure.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

in reply to Iron Bug

so how this all is connected with diversion of labor and money as measure for human work? abosultely no relations.

You mean slavery, climate change, corruption, waste and such? Very simple, humans are forced and entangled with trade, thus they want more for themselves at any costs. That's the incentive. And so oil companies trade oil for fortune, and they don't want to switch to renewables since oil is profitable, it is a good trade for them. Thus the lobby governments to keep that status quo. Also, if it costs me more to recycle my waste than dumping it into the river, then I'll do that. Want more examples? I have written huge books about these. See tromsite.com/books

It is all related to trade of course. That's the foundation of our global societies from china to usa and everything in between.

in reply to Tio

nope. you lack basic logic. this is senselesss talk.
in reply to Iron Bug

Ah yes...that was it. Thanks. Now you can dismiss all of my points and leave the room. I was flawed, my "basic logic" is what I lacked. Ok have a nice trade life. Trade as much as you can. Be the best player you can be. Be proud of yourself. Bye :)
in reply to Tio

if you want - go read books on economics. this will help.
but your theory does not fit even into plain everyday experience. so until you have a working plan how to barter code written in C for milk, tomatoes and cheese, I don't wanna proceed with this discussion.
in reply to Iron Bug

in normal world I do this for over 20 years: I write code and buy all goods for money. no problem.
in reply to Iron Bug

in normal world I do this for over 20 years: I write code and buy all goods for money. no problem.


It is no problem for you because you don't understand the global impact of this practice. The simple act of eating chocolate means millions of slave children that are on cocoa plantations. That's 1 example. All due to trade, because we trade cocoa for this and that. So people are incentivized to maximize their profits. Slaves are free. That's a great business plan.

You fail to see the consumerism culture that's being created because of trade. The waste, the suffering. That's not a "normal" world, it is a sick world.

in reply to Tio

in reply to Aaron

@Iron Bug I guess you also know about Karl Marx, as he explained Capitalism and it's flaws in a very detailed way.
in reply to Aaron

sure. a man that could not maintain his own wife, lived on Engels' handout, living in an attic and having no money worte about "capital". for the beginning, I don't trust people that write about things they have never had or used, or earned. about capital I prefer to read Soros, he's an exellent example of capital owner and he knows what capital is and how to make it. and he also pays a lot to charity. to real charity, providing computers and books for education all over the world. this is the capital. and some beggar without his own corner cannot write anything good.
in reply to Iron Bug

Right...you mean the ones who are playing the game and are successful at it, are the most reliable to objectively analyze the game? Sounds really smart.

Also, you can analyze the human suffering without being yourself a sufferer. Since that's what people like Marx have analyzed, the suffering in this "capitalism" (trade based) world.

in reply to Iron Bug

in reply to Aaron

I'm not rich like Soros, but I use my money for maintaining my own life, for helping opensource, opera theater, some projects in science. and without money one cannot help anything. and those who cannot feed themselves should not write books on economics. this is I know for sure.
in reply to Iron Bug

and without money one cannot help anything


If this doesn't record in your brain as a proof that this society is fucked up, then you are truly blind. Because you are mainly right in saying that. How unfortunate this is, right?

in reply to Aaron

and that idiocy he wrote led to terrible consequencies in our country. 70 years of terror and poverty. this is the proof that baseless theories cannot and should not be applied to practice.
we see that only capitalist countries live wealthy and have strong economics, with democratic values and a lot of freedom for citizens. and communistic tyrannies are all suppressing their citizens, as slaves, rob them and use murder for terror and keeping up their reign. this is practice.
in reply to Iron Bug

in reply to Tio

yes, because comminism does not exist in real life. and I'm telling this here to you from the very beginning. it's a lie. or fairytale, if you like it better. but I call this simply lie. I won't read books about money by the man that had no money. this is ridiculous. have you ever seen a man that wrote books on programming that has never written a program? or a man that wrote books on constuction having not built even a shack. and then why should I read wild fantasies of a man that was poor like a rat for whole his life about "how economics should work"? he didn't know a shit about economics. I know more, because I live on my own, at least, not on any handout. no way I would waste my time for such a wannabe. I prefer to read books of those who know the thing they write about.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

In your view you'd rather read the books of Musk and Bezos to understand how bad this "capitalism" is, rather than reading the books of those who suffered because of capitalism? Makes no sense.

It is almost like trusting a rapist to tell you about how to behave with women.

Anyway forget about Marx, look at the trade-based society today. It is a pile of poopoo littered with very many bad things. What are we even debating here? That we cannot have any society other than based on trade? Where are we going with this discussion?

in reply to Tio

capitalism is excellent. just some lazy bums are so cheeky they want they're paid for doing nothing. man, I'm a foreigner and I worked for American companies with no problem. so then what the heck prevents people there work too? fuck, I don't believe this. they blame the best economics in the world. just stupid lazy losers.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

You need an award my friend for the most ignorant homo sapiens on the planet. Go talk to some poor people, see what life really is. See how your comfort (if there is any ofc) is built on mountains of slaves and corruption and waste. We can move on with our lives if you don't mind. Go enjoy the american dream, you fully deserve it.
in reply to Tio

if you wanna see what's really bad - welcome to Russia. here you can have higher education, work on two works and make less than 200 bucks per month. this is bad. and you there have the blessed rose garden for work opportunities. just come and work, what do you need, the heck? this sounds crazy people having everything are complaining like stupid kids.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

I think some people are just going crazy of eating too much. they get all for granted and still sob they have "so awful capitalism".
in reply to Iron Bug

Yeah hurray for the russian capitalism alongside american one and the entire trade world. God bless them. They do only good things.
in reply to Tio

there's no capitalism in Russia. and never was. it's a consequences of socialistic economics and putler that is a thief, like all other communists.
This entry was edited (2 years ago)
in reply to Iron Bug

God bless the trade-system in Russia and USA. They do only good. I hope you are happier now. God bless you too, you need that.
in reply to Tio

the problem is I'm an atheist. so the only person that saves me is myself. nobody else ever cared :)
in reply to Iron Bug

You need God my friend if you keep on believing that capitalism is a great system. You might as well start to pray.
in reply to Iron Bug

You sent me to the Bible, thanks. Same goes for all religious people.

Also you understood nothing from this discussion. I was never saying we should trade code for milk, or sex for shoes. I am saying the exact opposite. We should go beyond trade and share things, and do more volunteer work, and be free from this trade enslavement. Do it in organized fashion like we showcase here directory.trade-free.org/ . No need to drag a dead and wasteful system of trade into a present where we have so much abundance that we are creating mountains of waste out of it.

in reply to Aaron

from my side, I have my own "sanctions" on putler and his gang: I don't work for any of their business, for companies that are affiliated with military, or with breaking the Internet connectivity with different bans and prohibiting people from getting information. I don't buy any goods that are produced by companies of putler's cronies. but this is all I can do about it. I'm not a Terminator to destroy the bunker and stop the war.
in reply to Aaron

alas, not all people have a choice. I'm a skilled programmer, I can work remotely and I can choose a job I like and have many job offers. although recently I spent many months looking for a job, because I didn't want to work for Russian projects affiliated with the putler's government or criminal olygarchs. they build a huge surveillance and Internet blocking system over here and many IT companies work for these projects. I cannot accept this. but many people are just usual workers and often they have no choise where to work in their little towns. they often have only one factory in a town that belongs to some olygarch and no any variants. they have no savings to live without job for some time or move somewhere. so they should not be banned for paying taxes. they cannot avoid this, whatever they do.
in reply to Aaron

people in little towns are very poor in this country. they make much less than $100 per month and this is beyond the imaginable level to survive. I don't know how they live. and such professions as teachers, nurses, common workers often make 7-10 thousands of roubles, nowadays this is 50-70 dollars. and now they got additional troubles with blocked cards, broken access to networks, closed shops and many more. and they expect they will go to protests? no way. all they can do now is surviving. people cannot go for rallies if they have troubles with food and basic needs. they're forced to work more, to run to banks trying to get their little money, to seek for some cheap food to feed their kids. and this is what's going on. and people won't do any revolutions, they have no time for this.
in reply to Iron Bug

@Iron Bug it's very sad to hear about that... I have been in Nepal once and saw many poor people there too. I appreciate that you are not working for projects affiliated with the russian government or IT companies working with them. I think you are a good human being. Keep being like that :)
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