Snippet from Culture Cancer:
In fact I’ve been living in Catalonia for 15 years now and I noticed a concerning trend. At least from my own perspective. Despite people here knowing Spanish perfectly fine, at times they may only choose to speak Catalan with you, even when you try to speak Spanish with them.
When I was taking driving lessons and was in the car with other Catalan students, I would mention that I only understand Spanish and not Catalan. And yet they would only speak Catalan with themselves and the teacher. Marginalizing me. The teacher had to awkwardly translate from Catalan to Spanish for me, despite the fact that everyone in that car knew Spanish…So why not simply speak Spanish then!? For me is a no-brainer.
When you have to deal with the hospital here, they will always send you messages or print medical results or treatments into Catalan, despite you making them aware that you do not understand Catalan. A reminder that Spanish is also an official language in Catalonia.
It is so awkward to go into a shop, open the conversation in Spanish, and only be replied in Catalan. So they understand, but refuse to speak Spanish. By “they” I do not mean all, but a good chunk of the people I have interacted with. Granted I rarely interact with people. But still, this is something well known in Catalonia.
#catalonia #language #marginalization #culture #trom #tromsite #catalunia #catala #catalan #spain
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Tio • • •«No pots pretendre que tothom canviï per tu. Ets tu qui t'has d'integrar».
Una dona que ha viscut sempre a regions monolingües.
Després de 15 anys, es discrimina ell tot sol. I ara plora? Au, va!
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • •Well Joan you reply to a post in English by writing in Catalan. How come?
If you already know English, the best is to write in English. Else communication is either impossible or difficult.
Same is true for the Catalans who know Spanish. If you already know a common official language why not use it? It is a simple question.
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Tio • • •Jo no som català, però sa meva llengua ho és. Gent que després de viure 15 anys a una nació i ve a imposar l'ús de l'idioma de la colònia (sigui foraster o sigui anglès) i esperant que sempre, sempre, sempre vos contestem en el vostre idioma, és com a poc, de maleducats. I ens hem cansat.
Si el vostre esforç és només per queixar-vos de la llengua pròpia del lloc on viviu, doncs, mira, aquí ho deixam. Adéu
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • •The article from where the snippet is looks at why groups of people fight with other groups. I also look at the history of Catalonia, the Franco era, to understand perhaps why are the Catalans so hurt when others do not speak Catalan. If you are curious you can read the entire article.
No one forces you to speak another language now. Everyone in Catalonia is free to speak Catalan. School is primarily in Catalan. Everything else is in Catalan only or Catalan primarily. So no one is stopping the Catalans from exercising their cultural traditions or anything else.
This being said, perhaps you should reconsider your anger since no one here wants to attack "your culture and language".
If you know a common language, you should use it. I speak english, romanian, and some spanish. If I knew Catalan I would speak Catalan.
The point is that by having this attitude towards those who do not speak Catalan, all you do is to make them angry and disgusted at your "language and culture". And this is not good for anyone.
If you wonder how come I lived in this region of
... Show more...The article from where the snippet is looks at why groups of people fight with other groups. I also look at the history of Catalonia, the Franco era, to understand perhaps why are the Catalans so hurt when others do not speak Catalan. If you are curious you can read the entire article.
No one forces you to speak another language now. Everyone in Catalonia is free to speak Catalan. School is primarily in Catalan. Everything else is in Catalan only or Catalan primarily. So no one is stopping the Catalans from exercising their cultural traditions or anything else.
This being said, perhaps you should reconsider your anger since no one here wants to attack "your culture and language".
If you know a common language, you should use it. I speak english, romanian, and some spanish. If I knew Catalan I would speak Catalan.
The point is that by having this attitude towards those who do not speak Catalan, all you do is to make them angry and disgusted at your "language and culture". And this is not good for anyone.
If you wonder how come I lived in this region of Spain, Catalonia, for 15 years and I do not know Catalan, then that is a reasonable question. Just make sure you ask it to learn not to insult. So let me know if you are curious and I will explain. After all... you would want to know why people like me do not speak Catalan no?
If we are both respectful we could understand each other perhaps.
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Tio • • •> I also look at the history of Catalonia
I Galícia, País Basc, Balears, Astúries, País Valencià, Extremadura i qualsevol altra nació dins s'Estat Epanyol, idioma del qual, no fos castellà.
> why are the Catalans so hurt when others do not speak Catalan
Sa incomoditat ve quan preteneu integrar-vos només si vos giram la llengua. Però, repetesc, jo no som català.
1/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> No one forces you to speak another language now
Sí, si ho feu. Amb lleis, amb publicitat, amb diners i vivint a un lloc negant-vos a aprendre el seu idioma propi. O «exigint» contestar en anglès un tut. Estau massa avesats a que vos girem la llengua.
> no one here wants to attack "your culture and language"
La primera cosa que has dit és justament fer servir qualsevol altre idioma, un de comú.
2/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> If you know a common language, you should use it.
Mai aprendràs català (o cap altre idioma) si vos ho parlam.
> I speak english, romanian, and some spanish. If I knew Catalan I would speak Catalan.
El romanès s'assembla molt al català. No pots aprendre català si no te'l xerram.
3/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> The point is that by having this attitude towards those who do not speak Catalan
Esteim cansats d'haver d'explicar cada dia perquè volem viure la nostra vida en la nostra llengua. Per exemple, a gent que després de 15 anys, no vol aprendre català perquè ja li poden xerrar en anglès o espanyol.
4/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> Just make sure you ask it to learn not to insult.
No t'he insultat. Demanar que giri la llengua és maleducat.
> you would want to know why people like me do not speak Catalan no?
Això, m'ho trob cada dia. Ja em sap greu.
5/5
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • •The rude part is to know a common language and refuse to use it. If I do not know Catalan, only Spanish, and you know Spanish but refuse to speak Spanish to me, who is the one who is rude? Spanish, is again, one of the 3 official languages of Catalonia - and that should even be besides the point.
So have you looked into why many people come to Catalonia, live here for many years, and do not learn Catalan? What did you find? Because I can tell you from my perspective and the people I know.
And if you can please reply in English to an English written post. This is quite unbelievable and it kinda shows why the situation with the Catalans in Catalonia is cancerous. You simply create an annoyance for both of us. Quite astonishing you decide to reply only in Catalan to an English post - you inserted yourself into "my world" and make it so hard for us to communicate. Use a common language or better not reply.
But honestly I am not surprised...
pomubieng
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to pomubieng • •Ok so more Catalans who see an English post and reply only in Catalan. Proves my point in the article. You say people don't respect your language when they come to Calatonia, well do you respect my language when you comment on my english posts? No.
English and Spanish yes were imposed to many parts of the world due to those native speakers conquering those parts of the world. Same as the Catalans did with the Catalonian region that was inhabited by Muslims with their own language. Only the scale may be different, but not the scope.
You should try to see beyond these past traumas and use what language you know in order to communicate. Else you only create corrosion between people.
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • •As far as I have observed the Catalans speak Catalan with their Catalan friends and family. No one forces them to speak Spanish. All Catalans can happily live in Catalonia and speak Catalan. Why do you feel so tired? Tired of what? In Nederlands, Andorra, Moldova, Canada, and so on people are perfectly fine to speak 2 or more languages without hating on those who do not speak one or another.
The more languages you speak the better, no? Be happy you know Spanish too, which is spoken by hundreds of millions of people. Isn't that an advantage?
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • •Idk what you mean. But the translation is correct perhaps: I will never learn Catalan just becuase you force it upon me and only talk Catalan to me.
Again, so far it did not work on me and so many other people to speak Catalan with us and we suddenly to get in loved with the language and speak it. Doesn't work. Is impossible if you are so rude and have this passive-aggressive behavior to make people want to learn your language. And is more to that.
pomubieng
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to pomubieng • •Languages yes are learned by need, force, etc.. I wrote a 600 pages book about languages tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-l… - so the Catalans want to force it then? Is that a good thing or does it even work? Because they try to do that in a region of Spain (as catalonia is now), in EU, and in a very touristic zone.... I don't see any chance you are making those poor South Americans, Romanians, Bulgarians, or the British and French tourists want to learn Catalan. Spanish, maybe....since it is useful. But Catalan, for the vast majority of people who come from outside, is not very useful at all. For better or for worse.
pomubieng
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to pomubieng • •I am from Romania :)) I am not that "imperialist" :D. This has nothing to do with being an "imperialist" but more so to do with "not being a jackass by refusing to use a common language to communicate". As simple as that.
I leaned English by choice. Same with Spanish kinda. It is really useful to know English considering it is the most international language on Earth and most scientific papers are written in English. Yes it ended up being like that because of a lot of influence, from force to media, but now it is what it is. Is a tool. Use it!
pomubieng
in reply to Tio • • •pomubieng
in reply to pomubieng • • •Tio
in reply to pomubieng • •Maybe you should read the article the snippet is from. I also talk about the Nazis. You confuse language, the tool, with those who made the language spoken by so many, via wars, colonization, influence, popularity, etc..
USA and Australia speak the same language…
Same is the case for South Africa, England, Sudan, Botswana, Nigeria, Singapore, Namibia or Ghana. And some 100 more tribes. French? Some 50 tribes speak French! The fact is that there are many tribes that speak the same language yet their cultures can be totally different.
Language does not flatten anything. You can have the same language and have wildly different cultures and ideas.
... Show more...Maybe you should read the article the snippet is from. I also talk about the Nazis. You confuse language, the tool, with those who made the language spoken by so many, via wars, colonization, influence, popularity, etc..
USA and Australia speak the same language…
Same is the case for South Africa, England, Sudan, Botswana, Nigeria, Singapore, Namibia or Ghana. And some 100 more tribes. French? Some 50 tribes speak French! The fact is that there are many tribes that speak the same language yet their cultures can be totally different.
Language does not flatten anything. You can have the same language and have wildly different cultures and ideas.
Learn my friend! The article looks at all of these. Give it a try!
Tio
in reply to pomubieng • •Most scientific papers are written in English. That is a fact.
But anyway, it is just a bloody language man. Calm down. You should be more worried that all products in Catalonia are made in China, or are USA-based ones. From Whatsapp to the sweets in the stores, or the stores themselves. Products, materials, apps, software...made by a few companies mostly from the USA. That is concerning, not a bloody language that is not owned by anyone. Use the damn language to communicate with people about real issues, rather than bitch about the language itself.
Be serious....
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • •No, no one is forced in Catalonia to speak any other language than Catalan. But the Catalans may try to force others to only speak Catalan despite Spanish also being an official language in Catalonia and uderstood by more people in Catalonia than Catalan.
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • •Even this conversation is an example of the terrible way to try and communicate. If the post is in English, and you translate in Catalan, why can't you at least translate your response to English so I have to do all of the work? That only creates discomfort...
Actually from my experience when you try to force Catalan on people you only make them hate that language. Why do you think if you refuse to speak a common language and force Catalan people would feel like they need to learn Catalan? I and the people I know truly hate this attitude and feel insulted by it. Isn't it something you should consider?
spla
in reply to Tio • • •Els catalans parlem català a casa nostra, és la nostra llengua pròpia i és llengua oficial. Respecte.
Tio
in reply to spla • •Another one who sees a post in English and decides the best is to reply in Catalan. Can't make this shit up...perhaps my article is far more on point than even I thought...
I understand very well that Catalan, Occitan and Spanish are the official languages of Catalonia.
I also speak Romanian at home with my parents. English with my friends who are from different parts of the world. And Spanish in Spain, including Catalonia, as much as I can. You see, the advantage of knowing multiple languages and using them as we should. The purpose of language is to communicate, no?
I ask you kindly to reply to this English post in English, else you are making communication very difficult. And you are the one inserting yourself in this conversation.
selmins
Unknown parent • • •15 years and not understanding that is what i wrote.
I think that to be 15 years here, being a speaker of Romanian and also Spanish (in addition to English, as it seems) and still maintaining that you are incapable of parsing (let alone speaking, but merely understanding) Catalan, and using that flimsy a pretext to force a Catalan speaker speak to you in Castilian is *not understanding* Catalonia at all.
Plus, I would adventure, taking some sadistic authoritarian pleasure in it.
Tio
in reply to selmins • •Thanks for writing in English. Makes more sense to communicate like that.
I understand some Catalan, a little, but have no practice speaking so I cannot reply in Catalan. Even Spanish is difficult for me to speak. Yes my case may be quite unique since I am not integrating even in Romania or other environment, I prefer to be alone. I have my online projects in English, which are all about providing free services for everyone.
But my family and so may others who come here come because they are poor and want to make money. And they either already know Spanish or will learn Spanish because for them is more useful since they may end up working in other parts of Spain outside Catalonia. These are the forces that make many people come to this region and not learning Catalan for example.
Is not their fault...it is an unfortunate situation for everyone. This is what the main article is about if you have time to read it.
So I do not want to force any Catalan to speak any particular language...I am only trying to use a common language. If you come to Romania I won't a
... Show more...Thanks for writing in English. Makes more sense to communicate like that.
I understand some Catalan, a little, but have no practice speaking so I cannot reply in Catalan. Even Spanish is difficult for me to speak. Yes my case may be quite unique since I am not integrating even in Romania or other environment, I prefer to be alone. I have my online projects in English, which are all about providing free services for everyone.
But my family and so may others who come here come because they are poor and want to make money. And they either already know Spanish or will learn Spanish because for them is more useful since they may end up working in other parts of Spain outside Catalonia. These are the forces that make many people come to this region and not learning Catalan for example.
Is not their fault...it is an unfortunate situation for everyone. This is what the main article is about if you have time to read it.
So I do not want to force any Catalan to speak any particular language...I am only trying to use a common language. If you come to Romania I won't ask you to speak Romanian if you don't know Romanian. If we both know Spanish/English we will speak that language. Is as easy as that....unsure why this would be such a big issue.
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