NO.
This is so confusing. There are many free things where you are not "the product". We make many, see tromsite.com and trom.tf.
I wish people would stop saying this about google and the like. There is a simple and to the point way of describing these "free" services. They are TRADE-BASED. You have to trade something to them, in order to use their services.
In the same way that when you go to a supermarket you have to trade your currency for what you grab from it, you have to trade your attention (ads) or data to Google when you go on their platform. Currency, attention, data.
S I M P L E
We live in a TRADE-BASED society where pretty much everything is trade-based. Money is just a currency we invented, but trades go without currency as well.
We spent more than a decade trying to shed some light on this confusion.
Documentary - tromsite.com/documentaries/tro…
Book - tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-t…
So when you create something entirely free, simply call it TRADE-FREE.
S I M P L E :)
#tutanota #free #foss #google #capitalism #trade #trade-based #trade-free #trom #tromsite #privacy #youtube
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codeDude :archlinux: :neovim:
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to codeDude :archlinux: :neovim: • •codeDude :archlinux: :neovim:
in reply to Tio • • •Tio likes this.
Tio
in reply to codeDude :archlinux: :neovim: • •codeDude :archlinux: :neovim:
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to codeDude :archlinux: :neovim: • •codeDude :archlinux: :neovim:
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to codeDude :archlinux: :neovim: • •It is true that most trades translate into "money" in today's society. But increasingly cryptocurrencies are getting more popular. However the focus should be on trade else we lose sight with whats happening online where data ant attention are traded without people realizing it.
The incentive is bad overall, from small to big companies, or individuals. Yes most have to trade to survive, and that is very bad and we should change this situation; it is also true that google and the like are not trading in order to survive, but to thrive in an unequal and ass backwards society.
codeDude :archlinux: :neovim:
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to codeDude :archlinux: :neovim: • •The entire premise of my original post is that it is not good saying "if it's free, you are the product" since for one it makes it seem like whatever is "free" is not to be trusted, and second it gives google and the like approval for using the word "free" for their trade-based services.
Google is trade-based. Facebook is trade-based.
Nextcloud is trade-free. Friendica is trade-free.
This wording makes a lot more sense.
codeDude :archlinux: :neovim:
in reply to Tio • • •Inken Paper
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Inken Paper • •Capitalism is a manifestation of trade, and ill defined for that matter.
As for "it's not trade if it's coerced" - we are mostly coerced to trade nowadays. Want food? Trade your time, energy, skills to someone else, get a currency, go trade it for food. Food is essential yet you have to trade for it, you have no other choice. And so it goes for pretty much anything.
Trade is an exchange, voluntarily or not.
Inken Paper
in reply to Tio • • •if you didn't trade consensually, then you were coerced, and that's not trade, that's stealing.
a form of trade exists in capitalism, but trade is not the same thing as capitalism.
all employment under capitalism is coerced, if the choice is between "work or die".
Tio
in reply to Inken Paper • •You run a business selling food, you have little choice, you have to pay your rent. I need food. I work, make money, then buy food from you. We were both coerced into this game, now who is stealing from who in his situation?
We can have endless debates as to what we mean by trade, but I go with what is generally understood - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade
I also wrote a book about the evolution of trade - tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-t…
"all employment under capitalism is coerced" I would say most employment on this planet, currently, is coerced. From US to China.
Inken Paper
in reply to Tio • • •capitalism is global. there is no part of human society than capitalism doesn't touch.
no one forced anyone to hoard food for profit. that's a choice. no one forced anyone to exploit workers by paying them wages. that is also a choice. no one forced anyone to enclose the commons and demand rent. that was also a choice.
writing a book doesn't mean it isn't full of nonsense. Hitler wrote a book too, as did Ayn Rand, but neither of these people had any ideas worth considering nor do they make any sense.
Tio
in reply to Inken Paper • •The book that I wrote is digitally available for everyone and every claim is sourced where I claim it. Click and see.
That being said, these isms are a lot of mushy ideas. Also the theory of these ideas can be widely different from their implementation.
And by "no one forced anyone to do this or that", I do not know what you are saying. Of course so many people are forced by others or circumstances. All choices are influenced by external factors: needs, efficiency, fear, etc..
Expert Plus 🍀
in reply to Tio • • •@Tio Dude. Are you lazy? Are you lazy?
If not, then do yourself a favor and research. I was 100% sure that after billions of people made posts and videos, that people will believe that Google is a goddamn evil corporation. You can't trust it with your data unless you're insane and you want Google to know everything about you.
Don't take my word for it - do yourself a favor and research!
P.S. Hope that will cure from sickness a little thing in your brain, named "logic". And your brain itself too.
Tio
in reply to Expert Plus 🍀 • •Expert Plus 🍀
in reply to Tio • • •@Tio In your original post, you're justifying corporations violating users's privacy rights without their consent. You're acting like as if it was a rule you have to accept and is impossible to live without it.
Back in 1830s,everyone lived without big tech and guess what? They survived. Surprising, right???
Well now, has anything changed? Nope, it didn't.
In your original post, you were complaining about that it's confusing to see people ranting about Google whenever you're product or not, which caused you to write this big post.
My previous reply was expected for you to reduce that confusion a bit. Does it all makes sense now?
The way big tech (like Google, Meta) do their business today, like making money, is unlawful and consentless. Your post is written as if it was okay to play that way business while in real life its not okay.
Do yourself a favor and research, like I said previously.
Tio
in reply to Expert Plus 🍀 • •You certainly misunderstood. I did not justify what they are doing, I said what they do is not free to begin with, it is trade-based. This cuts the confusion when people think google and the like are free, and when some say "you are the product". Better say google is trade-based.
I dedicated the past 10+ years showcasing how this is fucked up. How trade is the origin of most problems.
See:
Documentary - tromsite.com/documentaries/tro…
Book - tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-t…
We showcase how we can create trade-free alternatives. And we create/enable a bunch. Just look at tromsite.com and trom.tf.
You got it 180 degrees wrong my friend.
Expert Plus 🍀
in reply to Tio • • •@Tio Dude. You've read my post partially, and while you did provided some good response, which I appreciate, hmm, I still gonna say that you did justified what big tech are doing.
Quote:
"*NO.
This is so confusing. There are many free things where you are not "the product".*"
If it doesn't has ads and trackers, then yes. Unless it doesn't violates user's privacy.
Quote:
"I wish people would stop saying this about google and the like. There is a simple and to the point way of describing these "free" services. They are TRADE-BASED. You have to trade something to them, in order to use their services."
Yes but it's consentless. Google and other big tech conpanies do not inform you about this.
Quote:
"*In the same way that when you go to a supermarket you have to trade your currency for what you grab from it, you have to trade your attention (ads) or data to Google when you go on their platform. Currency, attent
... show more@Tio Dude. You've read my post partially, and while you did provided some good response, which I appreciate, hmm, I still gonna say that you did justified what big tech are doing.
Quote:
"*NO.
This is so confusing. There are many free things where you are not "the product".*"
If it doesn't has ads and trackers, then yes. Unless it doesn't violates user's privacy.
Quote:
"I wish people would stop saying this about google and the like. There is a simple and to the point way of describing these "free" services. They are TRADE-BASED. You have to trade something to them, in order to use their services."
Yes but it's consentless. Google and other big tech conpanies do not inform you about this.
Quote:
"*In the same way that when you go to a supermarket you have to trade your currency for what you grab from it, you have to trade your attention (ads) or data to Google when you go on their platform. Currency, attention, data.
S I M P L E
We live in a TRADE-BASED society where pretty much everything is trade-based. Money is just a currency we invented, but trades go without currency as well.*"
Like I said, it's consentless and informless.
See now? I quoted specific arguments of yours where you justified what big tech companies do.
Tio
in reply to Expert Plus 🍀 • •Thats exactly what I argue there are many trade-free things out there, google aint one. Nor is any that forces you to trade your attention (ads) or data. They are trade-based. BAD
btw learn how to use quotes in friendica.....else it is very confusing....
LautreG
in reply to Tio • • •@CyborgHT
When there is no ads and no tracking, you arn't the product.
Why not install #Yunohost at home or in a VPS?
It's easy to install. Yunohost.org
And there is many apps available by one click.
And, you can look at #Chatons where there a lot of services, sometimes free of charge.
chatons.org
Tio likes this.
Expert Plus 🍀
in reply to LautreG • • •TROM
in reply to Expert Plus 🍀 • •