The ruining of "free" and "donation".
Here's another example of how people are entirely confused about what is free and what is not, and why our trade-free approach makes so much sense.
We have added this peer to peer file sharing app to TROMjaro's Library: SoulSeek. This app is great. It allows you to connect with others directly, and share files with them. No server involved. We wanted to share our VideoNeat library on the network. However if you look closely they limit your experience. And if you donate currency to them you get this:
While they call themselves entirely free:
So, it is free, but you have to pay to unlock certain features....makes so much sense indeed!
Actually they call those trades, donations. And the word and concept of "donation" got ruined alongside that of "free". Donations should be voluntary and not used for the purpose of trade. If you "donate" currency to me in return for some features, then that is a trade. You are buying from me. As simple as that.
Therefore our concept of trade free is so simple and destroys all of these nonsensicalities: What Am I Trading? Ask that. And if you do, then you realize that you need to trade currency for Soulseek to give you more features. Therefore this app is not trade-free.
The reason it was added to our TROMjaro library is that either we could not detect this trade since they are charlatan enough to hide them well, or it was not present when the app was added. Needless to say it was immediately removed.
We need more than ever this "trade as the original of most problems" approach and the "trade-free" antidote. Without them we are going into a deep and ugly confusion. A black hole of that! #tromlive
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TROM
Unknown parent • •For one, do not call donations something that you trade. Can I get those "perks" without giving something to those people? No. So this is a trade not a donation. It is clearly stated on their website. As you can see in that image.
Second, they do provide benefits for the software. Permanent username, removal of a possible "annoyance" (donate button), and you get first in line for downloads. These are the things they are selling.
If they would accept donations, then they should not give anything in return for that. Else this is not a donation, it is purchasing. Regardless of what they think of it.
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TROM
Unknown parent • •No because we are talking about goods and services being trade-free or not. Saying "thank you" is different from providing features that are intentionally restricted for those who do not "donate".
If the SoulSeek people would send "thank yous" and tshirts or whatever to their donors, then maybe we could consider SoulSeek (the software) as trade free since you get whatever everyone gets, regardless if you "donate" to them or not, in terms of that software. But they clearly restrict some features of the software itself, unless you give them currency, and only then they will "unlock" these features.
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Alexio
in reply to TROM • •TROM
in reply to Alexio • •It was removed from TROMjaro as well. It has the same "non features" as the main one. You are limited in terms of download queues and such.
There are other trade-free similar apps like tromjaro.com/tixati/ or tromjaro.com/gtk-gnutella/ and so on.
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Rokosun
in reply to TROM • • •@utopify_org
Rokosun
Unknown parent • • •Yes, I'm interested to see what @tio has to say about that.
According to me, if you give T-shirts for donations then its definitely a trade and not really a "donation". But the trade-free label is usually applied to goods/services..... So if someone provides a trade-free software that stays the same for ones who donate and those who don't, but for the people who donate they give a T-shirt which has nothing to do with the software itself, then how do we look at it? 🤔
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TROM
in reply to Rokosun • •I didn't say that would make the software trade-free but that we could consider it as such. These are "edge" cases and as explained in the main TROM book we should not waste too much time on these because if you put under the microscope any idea/ideal it won't make as much sense.
That being said: if you make a video player that is trade-free, so anyone can enjoy it in any regards and do whatever they want with it without trading for that, but you also say that if anyone donates money to the project, they will get a tshirt back - the player itself is still trade-free since everyone gets access to the same player without trading anything for it. The incentive for donations is a separa
... show moreI didn't say that would make the software trade-free but that we could consider it as such. These are "edge" cases and as explained in the main TROM book we should not waste too much time on these because if you put under the microscope any idea/ideal it won't make as much sense.
That being said: if you make a video player that is trade-free, so anyone can enjoy it in any regards and do whatever they want with it without trading for that, but you also say that if anyone donates money to the project, they will get a tshirt back - the player itself is still trade-free since everyone gets access to the same player without trading anything for it. The incentive for donations is a separate thing in my view. It can be an interesting discussion however never forget that such edge cases are not that important, what we try to focus on are the more obvious trades and their negative impact, from software that pretends to be free yet they collect your data, to food that can only be accessible if you trade your currency, and so forth.
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Rokosun
in reply to TROM • • •@tio @utopify_org
Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •like this
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Rokosun
Unknown parent • • •Okay, so if you're really interested in this trade-free movement and want to learn more about it, then I recommend you read the book "The origin of most problems" from tromsite.com/books
That book specifically deals with this idea and its definition, it'll make you understand the different types of trades there are and how to spot these hidden trades. It also goes a little beyond the trade free concept, with things like VADOSE. You'll definitely learn a lot from it.
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Books
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Rokosun
in reply to Rokosun • • •@trom @tio
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Rokosun
Unknown parent • • •@trom @tio
VideoNeat
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Rokosun
Unknown parent • • •> Okay, the t-shirt for donors is trade-free, because the main product is the software, which should be free for everyone.
I think it'll be more clear if you look at the T-shirt and software as two separate things, one here is trade-free (software which is the same for all), the other one is not trade-free (T-shirt which only donors get).
But that being said, I think this is an edge case where the line becomes a bit blurry. Like asking if a hyena is a cat or a dog 😁
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Tio
Unknown parent • •As @Rokosun said we go into more detail in the Origin of Most Problems book. Now, the trade-free idea is an "experimental" one, and we label it as such in the book too, where we started it. To define what is trade and what is quite easy in general, but it can become confusing when you go into these edge cases. But it is fine. Everything is like that. The Open source idea is easy to understand, unless you go into the microscopic world of it and realize it may not be as coherent anymore.
So I think we can push it as far as to the example from this post. But what we care mostly about are those macro trades that we describe in the book.
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Aaron
Unknown parent • • •Great to ask these questions @maxmoon :)
I go with the recommendation to read the book which has a lot of examples to clarify that. Maybe a short and simple example is wikipedia. If wikipedia would allow me to access it only if I give some money, then wikipedia would not be trade-free. If wikipedia allows me to access it (as trade-free), but if I donate to them I get a t-shirt and otherwise I don't get a t-shirt, then the access to Wikipedia is still trade-free, but the t-shirt is not (since I have to give money to them).
In todays world unfortunately, people/organizations are forced to trade so the main goal is to trade less and create more trade-free chains that support each other. Example: There's an organization called "Foodsharing" in germany and while someone could save food from there, he/she could volunteer and code some software that he/she offers as trade-free for others.
... show moreGreat to ask these questions @maxmoon :)
I go with the recommendation to read the book which has a lot of examples to clarify that. Maybe a short and simple example is wikipedia. If wikipedia would allow me to access it only if I give some money, then wikipedia would not be trade-free. If wikipedia allows me to access it (as trade-free), but if I donate to them I get a t-shirt and otherwise I don't get a t-shirt, then the access to Wikipedia is still trade-free, but the t-shirt is not (since I have to give money to them).
In todays world unfortunately, people/organizations are forced to trade so the main goal is to trade less and create more trade-free chains that support each other. Example: There's an organization called "Foodsharing" in germany and while someone could save food from there, he/she could volunteer and code some software that he/she offers as trade-free for others.
We're even showcasing some of the many trade-free goods/services that exist in todays world in a directory: directory.trade-free.org
But the main focus is on explaining why trade is the source of most problems.
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