Two things scare me the most, personally. First is death or health related issues. It is normal, if I die I'm fucked for eternity :). I think this is easy to understand for many people.
Second thing that scares me so much is to slip back into the fantasy world that humans created and forget about the amazing reality discovered for the past hundreds of years. To become too normal, even if that can mean to laugh, have fun, enjoy. I am scared of this. I battled this for all of my life trying to inject myself with reality bits and info (atoms, galaxies, evolution, stars and everything real) in the hope that my brain can understand the value of reality. It is hard. It is so hard and it is something I feel not many, if any, understand. It is also something that you can lose very fast, when you "get it".
I wanted to put a printed Hubble image of the Andromeda galaxy on the ceiling in my room when I was in college so that when I wake up it will remind me of how reality is mind blowing and the human invented one is a simplistic, myopic and colorless at best.
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Two things scare me the most, personally. First is death or health related issues. It is normal, if I die I'm fucked for eternity :). I think this is easy to understand for many people.
Second thing that scares me so much is to slip back into the fantasy world that humans created and forget about the amazing reality discovered for the past hundreds of years. To become too normal, even if that can mean to laugh, have fun, enjoy. I am scared of this. I battled this for all of my life trying to inject myself with reality bits and info (atoms, galaxies, evolution, stars and everything real) in the hope that my brain can understand the value of reality. It is hard. It is so hard and it is something I feel not many, if any, understand. It is also something that you can lose very fast, when you "get it".
I wanted to put a printed Hubble image of the Andromeda galaxy on the ceiling in my room when I was in college so that when I wake up it will remind me of how reality is mind blowing and the human invented one is a simplistic, myopic and colorless at best.
Most humans are today as they were 400, 1.000 , or more years ago. Let's have a beer, a chat, get married, fuck, have kids, gossip, have fun or war. Not saying some of these are not good or reasonable, but isn't it mindblowing that not much has changed in the core of our global society and the day to day life of humans for the past 400 years considering in this time we discovered cells, atoms, galaxies, evolution, and everything in between?
To me, this is so odd it creates a turmoil in my head. I think I have an explanation why this is the case tho: an aggressive trade-based society where everyone is a working ant. No time to even know about reality, let alone absorb it.
Reality is shocking, mind-blowing, fabulous, scary, infinitely complex and amazing. Day to day life in this society is simplistic and almost parallel to reality.
If you don't fee like losing your mind when you think about this contrast, I don't think you understand.
I sometimes think of death as an external sleep and it makes it seem less frightening, except the pain of death and health issues ofc - those are still scary.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth? 🤔 But yeah I do still wish for some things to change, things like wars and environmental destruction, or the fact that humans are still forced to be like working ants - that sucks because it takes away their precious time.
If you think about it the universe also feels stagnant sometimes, the moon rotates around the earth and the earth rotates around the sun - it has been like that for millions of years. I've heard that the Andromeda galaxy will one day collapse with the Milkyway to create a new galaxy, but the time it takes for that to happen is so long that my lifespan feels insignificant in comparison. Hell most of us don't even notice the
I sometimes think of death as an external sleep and it makes it seem less frightening, except the pain of death and health issues ofc - those are still scary.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth? 🤔 But yeah I do still wish for some things to change, things like wars and environmental destruction, or the fact that humans are still forced to be like working ants - that sucks because it takes away their precious time.
If you think about it the universe also feels stagnant sometimes, the moon rotates around the earth and the earth rotates around the sun - it has been like that for millions of years. I've heard that the Andromeda galaxy will one day collapse with the Milkyway to create a new galaxy, but the time it takes for that to happen is so long that my lifespan feels insignificant in comparison. Hell most of us don't even notice the trees growing around us because it happens very slowly lol 😄 But the one thing that has had significant changes is our understanding of the universe, we sent humans to space, rovers to mars, etc so that we could study it. We made a giant foldable telescope and sent it into space just so we could see distant galaxies more clearly! 🤓 Hell we photographed a black hole! 😃 So in the end it is still about humanity, the leaps and bounces we make in trying to understand the universe 🙂
Well doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth?
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
Those missions are not just "humans exploring out of curiosity" - there are many people involved who just "do their job" as an engineer, scientist, etc.. I remember seeing videos from ISS with "scientists" wearing a cross, and being so "christians"....to me that's so weird. Also celebrating the SuperBall and I bet many watch Netflix in space.
My point is that if we were to discover that inside our skulls there is a green little man pushing buttons....and we have phot
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Well doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth?
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
Those missions are not just "humans exploring out of curiosity" - there are many people involved who just "do their job" as an engineer, scientist, etc.. I remember seeing videos from ISS with "scientists" wearing a cross, and being so "christians"....to me that's so weird. Also celebrating the SuperBall and I bet many watch Netflix in space.
My point is that if we were to discover that inside our skulls there is a green little man pushing buttons....and we have photos of that, and so on, but you tell to people about it and they are like "hm, ok, yah" and move on with their life....this is WEIRD :D
Well doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
Yeah it is kinda scary to think that you'll never be able to experience the world again, but once you're dead you're also not conscious anymore and without that you cannot miss what you had before. But yeah ofc it's normal to be scared of death, we all are to some extent.
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
I think the discovery of these things actually did have an impact on our culture, but perhaps not as pronounced as it should've been. I remember the first time I learned about atoms as a kid, that was a mind blowing experi
Well doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
Yeah it is kinda scary to think that you'll never be able to experience the world again, but once you're dead you're also not conscious anymore and without that you cannot miss what you had before. But yeah ofc it's normal to be scared of death, we all are to some extent.
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
I think the discovery of these things actually did have an impact on our culture, but perhaps not as pronounced as it should've been. I remember the first time I learned about atoms as a kid, that was a mind blowing experience for me! And I remember discussing about these ideas with a friend who was also blown away by these things. The crazy thing is that it almost feels like science fiction, and I know people have theorized about this idea centuries ago that maybe all matter was made out of some fundamental particles - those were just theories back then, until we discovered through science that it was actually real! Over time I got used to the idea of atoms and it doesn't excite me anymore like when I was a kid first discovering it, but this is pretty normal - it keeps me wanting to learn new things so that I could feel like that kid again 🙂
Those missions are not just "humans exploring out of curiosity" - there are many people involved who just "do their job" as an engineer, scientist, etc.. I remember seeing videos from ISS with "scientists" wearing a cross, and being so "christians"....to me that's so weird. Also celebrating the SuperBall and I bet many watch Netflix in space.
Religion and science is a weird mix for sure, but I don't know maybe it works in this weird ant worker society we got going lol 😄 Stuff like SuperBall and Netflix could be argued as a waste of time (if someone's spending too much time on it), but at least these are not fundamental beliefs like religion and likewise not as harmful.
My point is that if we were to discover that inside our skulls there is a green little man pushing buttons....and we have photos of that, and so on, but you tell to people about it and they are like "hm, ok, yah" and move on with their life....this is WEIRD :D
Oh yeah I get what you mean, I don't understand people who don't have any curiosity man 😅 It is sad to see people being apathetic to these things. Sometimes when I learn about something really cool and wanna share it with others I have no one around me who could understand it or share that excitement with me, sometimes when there is someone they'll be too busy to have the time for it - experiences like that does make me feel alone sometimes.
but once you're dead you're also not conscious anymore and without that you cannot miss what you had before
The missing part is for the alive ones :P like us. So ofc it is frighting to think about it.
I think the discovery of these things actually did have an impact on our culture, but perhaps not as pronounced as it should've been.
I do not see that impact. People's lives are the same as they were hundreds or thousands of years ago: work, consume, get married, have kids, gossip, and all that. These discoveries didn't even make us feel like one species. We are still divided into tribes.
Sometimes when I learn about something really cool and wanna share it with others I have no one around me who could understand it or share that excitement with me, sometimes when there is someone they'll be too busy to have the time for it - experiences like that does make me feel alone sometimes.
Yeah exactly....as I was saying since people are so busy to trade mostly. It sucks and it destroys curiosity. It really sucks.
Mmm, depends what you mean by "core of our global society" I guess.
Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In some ways the changes have been profound even at the practical level, let alone the subtler realm of world views (which have changed beyond recognition).
In Stephen Baxter's novels he refers to all the accessories needed for manned spaceflight collectively as plumbing : we need to bring along a hell of a lot of stuff just to keep us going. Likewise, what have we learned that prevents the need for sex, trade and beer (not necessarily in that order) ? Nothing, really. We still need to do all that stuff. It's
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Mmm, depends what you mean by "core of our global society" I guess.
Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In some ways the changes have been profound even at the practical level, let alone the subtler realm of world views (which have changed beyond recognition).
In Stephen Baxter's novels he refers to all the accessories needed for manned spaceflight collectively as plumbing : we need to bring along a hell of a lot of stuff just to keep us going. Likewise, what have we learned that prevents the need for sex, trade and beer (not necessarily in that order) ? Nothing, really. We still need to do all that stuff. It's just that now our conversations are about different things and proceed from different assumptions. The shift is subtler than changing our gross behaviours - except where technology or other developments make this unavoidable - but no less powerful for that. You don't find people worrying about miasma anymore, but actually disinfecting things properly.
The other factor is that frequent consideration of our place in the Universe on scales both large and small is likely a quick route to insanity. :)
Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
Probably "immediate relevance" means whatever they are made to focus on in this society: iphones, gadgets, stupid tv shows, events, consume, drama, etc.. Cells and galaxies and the rest are something one can use to change the way they see themselves and others. Like we are all humans, all connected, no need for artificial separations like borders, nationalities, color of the skin, etc.. These are also wonderful discussion topics and may make people buy a telescope/microscope rather than a new phone. There are many implications resulting from such a scientific mind set.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In s
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Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
Probably "immediate relevance" means whatever they are made to focus on in this society: iphones, gadgets, stupid tv shows, events, consume, drama, etc.. Cells and galaxies and the rest are something one can use to change the way they see themselves and others. Like we are all humans, all connected, no need for artificial separations like borders, nationalities, color of the skin, etc.. These are also wonderful discussion topics and may make people buy a telescope/microscope rather than a new phone. There are many implications resulting from such a scientific mind set.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In some ways the changes have been profound even at the practical level, let alone the subtler realm of world views (which have changed beyond recognition).
This has nothing to do with the way people are. A webdesigner today and a house constructor from 600 years ago have a lot in common. Probably both want to get married, have kids, want to buy stuff, trade, not curious about the scientific world, etc..
Yes, but most scientists also want to buy stuff, get married, etc. We don't spend the whole time pontificating on the nature of reality because, as I said, it would drive us mad.
I think the general mindset of the modern world has changed, substantially, from where it was centuries ago. Social attitudes have changed radically from where they were even a few decades ago : compare the role of women in the workplace in the 1950s, or how homosexuals were treated in the 1980s. There isn't full equality yet, but good lord there's been a colossal shift in that direction (interestingly of course, if you go back further through history, you often find shifts in both positive as well as negative directions compared to the modern era, e.g. homosexuality in ancient Greece).
Yes, lots of people use gadgets and whatnot for watching stupid TV shows and the like. But they also use them for watching educational stuff.
I dunno, I just think there's no one right way to live one's life. I'm an astronomer, but I'd no more want to force astronomy on those unwilling to do it t
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Yes, but most scientists also want to buy stuff, get married, etc. We don't spend the whole time pontificating on the nature of reality because, as I said, it would drive us mad.
I think the general mindset of the modern world has changed, substantially, from where it was centuries ago. Social attitudes have changed radically from where they were even a few decades ago : compare the role of women in the workplace in the 1950s, or how homosexuals were treated in the 1980s. There isn't full equality yet, but good lord there's been a colossal shift in that direction (interestingly of course, if you go back further through history, you often find shifts in both positive as well as negative directions compared to the modern era, e.g. homosexuality in ancient Greece).
Yes, lots of people use gadgets and whatnot for watching stupid TV shows and the like. But they also use them for watching educational stuff.
I dunno, I just think there's no one right way to live one's life. I'm an astronomer, but I'd no more want to force astronomy on those unwilling to do it than I'd appreciate being forced to, say, play basketball. I honestly haven't got a clue what people get out of playing sports but if that's what they like, so be it.
I do wish we could stop the utterly vacuous stuff though : Keeping Up With the Kardaashians, endless celebrity gossip and the like. But I'm not sure it's possible. We seem hard wired to be very interested in judging each other, and no amount of cosmic mystiwisdom seems able to change that.
It is not about "pontificating" about atoms, galaxies, and what-not, is about how these fundamental truths that were only discovered recently seem to have no impact on the vast majority of people. And that is very strange.
I am lucky to be around people who are excited about these real things so we often talk about these, we go with the telescope and watch some planets, or look at things through the microscope, etc.. I cannot even watch movies anymore, I watch documentaries. Reality is the most mindblowing and interesting and complex thing, so if you get it, you can't be excited by simplistic human-made stories I guess. And we are far from losing our minds :)
I agree some social attitudes have changed a lot, but many have not in my view. The attitude towards work, the notion of family, the view of us as one species (which is scientifically accurate) does not seem to be a thing in this society - I see a lot more division every day. We have the same core trade-based society where the purpose of pretty much everyone is that of trade. To trade themselves or the stuff they
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It is not about "pontificating" about atoms, galaxies, and what-not, is about how these fundamental truths that were only discovered recently seem to have no impact on the vast majority of people. And that is very strange.
I am lucky to be around people who are excited about these real things so we often talk about these, we go with the telescope and watch some planets, or look at things through the microscope, etc.. I cannot even watch movies anymore, I watch documentaries. Reality is the most mindblowing and interesting and complex thing, so if you get it, you can't be excited by simplistic human-made stories I guess. And we are far from losing our minds :)
I agree some social attitudes have changed a lot, but many have not in my view. The attitude towards work, the notion of family, the view of us as one species (which is scientifically accurate) does not seem to be a thing in this society - I see a lot more division every day. We have the same core trade-based society where the purpose of pretty much everyone is that of trade. To trade themselves or the stuff they have, for something else. The attitude towards consumerism has become more insane, and so forth.
I also agree that anyone should live their lives as they wish to, I am just observing some facts: how for the past hundreds of years mindblowing things have been discovered about reality, and this had almost 0 impact on the day to day life of people. Imagine if we proved we live in a computer simulation and all scientists agree and we can verify. But yet most people would be like "Yeah, cool..." and move on with their simulated life. Wouldn't that be bizarre?
We seem hard wired to be very interested in judging each other, and no amount of cosmic mystiwisdom seems able to change that.
I disagree that we are hard wired for anything really. We become whatever the environment pushes us to be. Even the way we walk or talk is created by the environment we are raised into. And we can change, never forget that.
Well I do agree that we aren't hardwired for anything very much. In large part, I think, we are society; we are our own environment. Yet there are behaviours like family bonds which, if not truly constant, don't seem to vary nearly as strongly. Hence I interpret some attitudes and behaviours, at least, to be hard-wired, maybe not fully so but much more than others.
I'm fascinated by how other cultures have interpreted reality in very different ways. The modern scientific world view is really very recent indeed and nowhere near complete, or even wholly accurate. I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ? The big ideas don't filter down to that level much except as nth-order effects. There is a deep-seated need to talk to other people, to have friends, to have material goods... whether reality is the atomic waste of stellar explosions or we're actually all living inside the eye of a giant duck wouldn't make any difference to that. In a way, all co
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Well I do agree that we aren't hardwired for anything very much. In large part, I think, we are society; we are our own environment. Yet there are behaviours like family bonds which, if not truly constant, don't seem to vary nearly as strongly. Hence I interpret some attitudes and behaviours, at least, to be hard-wired, maybe not fully so but much more than others.
I'm fascinated by how other cultures have interpreted reality in very different ways. The modern scientific world view is really very recent indeed and nowhere near complete, or even wholly accurate. I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ? The big ideas don't filter down to that level much except as nth-order effects. There is a deep-seated need to talk to other people, to have friends, to have material goods... whether reality is the atomic waste of stellar explosions or we're actually all living inside the eye of a giant duck wouldn't make any difference to that. In a way, all conceptions of reality are equally astonishing (Pratchett, as often, said it best).
On the other hand... nobody goes to the local Wise Woman for medicine anymore (well, with some unfortunate exceptions...), or sacrifices a bull to bring the rain. Some basics haven't varied much but differences of detail are huge. The things that don't vary, I think, are the fundamental "plumbing" and likely will never alter very much at all.
And the thing is, discoveries filter through slowly. We have time to adapt; there isn't much "shock value" in most findings. Even when there is, what seemed revolutionary yesterday becomes normal very quickly indeed. We are extremely flexible. Possibly there's a state of maximum excitation beyond which things are so radically different that they just can't be understood at all, but below which pretty nearly everything becomes normal.
I suppose it might be "scary" in the sense that maybe we aren't as humbled as we should be. On the other hand, being in a state of permanent astonishment and surprise would be debilitating. Flexibility has its advantages.
I looked a lot into this hard-wiring "theory" of behavior and I could never find anything of significance especially since humans can always change. So the outside pressures are always the ones capable of changing the behavior.
I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ?
Well take climate change. It is a huge issue. All scientists agree about that basically. But not much is being done because something else overwrites it: the pressures in this trade based society to seek for profit.
In the same way people are more incentivized and made to watch some silly netflix series than say documentaries (due to ads for example), or find it easier to have chit-chats about nothing things than more interesting conversations because most people are tired due to work. And so on. The notion of a family is quite stagnant and promoted by the same media that everyone consumes.
Most boils down to this trade-based society where people are incentivized to prom
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I looked a lot into this hard-wiring "theory" of behavior and I could never find anything of significance especially since humans can always change. So the outside pressures are always the ones capable of changing the behavior.
I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ?
Well take climate change. It is a huge issue. All scientists agree about that basically. But not much is being done because something else overwrites it: the pressures in this trade based society to seek for profit.
In the same way people are more incentivized and made to watch some silly netflix series than say documentaries (due to ads for example), or find it easier to have chit-chats about nothing things than more interesting conversations because most people are tired due to work. And so on. The notion of a family is quite stagnant and promoted by the same media that everyone consumes.
Most boils down to this trade-based society where people are incentivized to promote and consume whatever sells best, where most people are busy and consumers, where reality is not really sold/advertised in any way, and so on.
Why would notions like the family, or the idea of work, and so forth be changed by whatever we discovered so far? Because what we discovered shows us we are one species on one planet, and same as with the climate change we should change the way we do things on this planet because we are not doing so well. And where there is no issue that is uncovered by this reality, like climate change, then the view of yourself in this universe should change if you find something new about reality, no?
There is a deep-seated need to talk to other people, to have friends, to have material goods... whether reality is the atomic waste of stellar explosions or we're actually all living inside the eye of a giant duck wouldn't make any difference to that.
It is so strange to think this way. Are you saying that if tomorrow we discover that all is a computer simulation, and everyone agrees, wouldn't it be weird if people would have the same lives as before?
I do not think there is a "natural" excuse for this state of numbness about reality. Whenever I show others the Moon or other planets through my telescope they don't even have a clue what these are. And they are fascinated when I tell them. I think the information doesn't reach most people to begin with. You can't be curious if you don't even know.
We could be very different beings if we were to take reality more seriously.
Well, the notion that we live in a simulation is essentially Berkelian idealism, which has been floating around for at least a couple of centuries and arguably a lot longer (certainly everyone has wondered at some point, "what if it's all a dream ?"). We've already had plenty of time to get use to the idea, so if it was somehow thought to be actually true, nothing much would happen.
Same as discovering aliens. When we actually do detect an alien signal or some microfossils, or even actual living microbes, I predict the reaction will be... not much. We've been writing stories about it since basically forever - it isn't a revolutionary concept anymore. Shock value is extremely hard to maintain. Sure, discovery of aliens would cause a big press hoo-hah. But unless we actually get an alien spaceship landing on the proverbial White House lawn (or equivalent), it isn't going to change anything fundamental on the long term. Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
Climate change is also a good example. Here's the rub : what can any of us actua
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Well, the notion that we live in a simulation is essentially Berkelian idealism, which has been floating around for at least a couple of centuries and arguably a lot longer (certainly everyone has wondered at some point, "what if it's all a dream ?"). We've already had plenty of time to get use to the idea, so if it was somehow thought to be actually true, nothing much would happen.
Same as discovering aliens. When we actually do detect an alien signal or some microfossils, or even actual living microbes, I predict the reaction will be... not much. We've been writing stories about it since basically forever - it isn't a revolutionary concept anymore. Shock value is extremely hard to maintain. Sure, discovery of aliens would cause a big press hoo-hah. But unless we actually get an alien spaceship landing on the proverbial White House lawn (or equivalent), it isn't going to change anything fundamental on the long term. Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
Climate change is also a good example. Here's the rub : what can any of us actually do about it ? In the case of aliens or simulations, nothing. I can't see why that would make me like or dislike my friends and family any more than I do already : what bearing would it have on anything ? I'm stuck with the reality I have before me. Knowledge of what it "really" is doesn't change anything at all for me : I still experience the same pleasures and pains, so I can't see what difference it would make practically (this is not at all the same as saying I wouldn't find it hugely interesting, however !).
(In the case of climate change, this is a bit tangential, but the answer is still "not much" individually - real differences require different power generation, farming techniques, societal structures, etc. none of which any individual has any real influence over)
It's not numbness, or even indifference. It's just that these things are orthogonal. I think you're taking it for granted that knowledge of reality should fundamentally change behaviour, but I cannot really see why this should be the case. Atomic theory hasn't altered family dynamics - I think it would be extremely strange if it did !
Culture changes enormously, as I said, and I agree that this is largely due to external factors : I'm not disagreeing with you on that one significantly. I further agree that the world would be a better place if more people were more concerned about the bigger issues than the humdrum superficial stuff. It's disappointing and, yes, even a little weird that they're not. But I can't see why any sort of discovery would, or even should, change something as fundamental as the nature of friendships and families. Material concerns could and should be mitigated, but I would think the chain of thought from "what is the nature of reality ?" to "how many eggs do I need to buy today ?" is so convoluted as to make these essentially unrelated questions. Likewise, why would knowing that you're made of atoms or dreams affect whether you fancy someone or enjoy playing tennis or having a beer ? I can't see why it would.
It is one thing for fictional ideas to be around for ages, another to prove one of them is real. The example was to show how a shocking discovery should shock people.
Shock value is extremely hard to maintain.
I am talking about the initial shock value that does not seem to happen to begin with in many cases in regards to the contrast between reality and society.
Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
I bet is not about interaction as it is about stimulation. There are many people in awe and shock about galaxies, or cells, or biology, or maths, or other parts of reality, as they are about celebrities, movies, fantasy stories and other things they cannot touch, interact with. It is all about what you stimulate people, culturally, to be interested in.
Like climate change, there are many who react to this bad piece of "news" and are active about trying to do something about it. Where is that motivation coming from since they seem to have no impact on the course of it anyway? It comes from what
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It is one thing for fictional ideas to be around for ages, another to prove one of them is real. The example was to show how a shocking discovery should shock people.
Shock value is extremely hard to maintain.
I am talking about the initial shock value that does not seem to happen to begin with in many cases in regards to the contrast between reality and society.
Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
I bet is not about interaction as it is about stimulation. There are many people in awe and shock about galaxies, or cells, or biology, or maths, or other parts of reality, as they are about celebrities, movies, fantasy stories and other things they cannot touch, interact with. It is all about what you stimulate people, culturally, to be interested in.
Like climate change, there are many who react to this bad piece of "news" and are active about trying to do something about it. Where is that motivation coming from since they seem to have no impact on the course of it anyway? It comes from whatever these people have in their heads. That motivates them.
If you don't feel like doing anything about the climate issue then it is all because you may not realize the importance of it or whatever makes you think is not worth your energy. But in the end is all about what we have in our brains, and that comes form the environment (culture). And this culture/system is a lot, if not most, about consumption and stupid things, so that's what people have in their brains. Of course they cannot get too excited about galaxies or atoms, but they get a lot of excitement when Prince H marries with Princess A, or about some fictional TV show. These are advertised to them a lot.
Atomic theory hasn't altered family dynamics - I think it would be extremely strange if it did !
People used to get married with their cousins or even closer relatives not long ago. It was normal. I think even Darwin married his cousin. Now because of some cultural shits and knowing that it is a bad idea (genetically speaking) to mate with closer relatives, this notion seems disgusting for many. Discoveries, bits of reality, can change and should change the way we think about mundane things.
Knowing that we are all made out of atoms should make us rethink our culturally inherited values such as fictional borders, human behavior, man made laws, and so forth. Why? Because we are part of a greater story and we are all part of the same system. A planet, an ecosystem, dependent on nature, and so forth.
But I can't see why any sort of discovery would, or even should, change something as fundamental as the nature of friendships and families
Simply because there is no nature about these things.
Even today there are tribes where children are raised by the entire community and have no notions of parents. Or their relationships are vastly different from the rest of the "civilized" world.
Humans are like plasticine molded by their environment. It is simply that our culture/system is the same for thousands of years: trade, have jobs, mate, have kids, retire, die. Humans are busy at least 8h every day, and when they finish work/school they are so tired that at the best they can chew is simplistic and dumbed down media produced by the same system of trade (workers) trying to sell stuff. It is a self propelled idiocracy that makes people unable to know and digest the complexity of reality that science is discovering. I think that's a better explanation of this situation.
Imagine you take a fish from the sea and the fish could suddenly talk and understand you. You explain to him about the world, the planet, the water, the evolution. If they fish is not even curious, let alone shocked about what you enlighten him with, then I think we should probably consider the fish as non-intelligent, or incapable of understanding. No?
You put the fish back in the sea and he goes on about being a fish for the rest of his life. Why would anything change for him no?
To me this makes the fish look "stupid". Primitive. Incapable of grasping a greater reality.
With humans is different since we know they have the capacity to wonder about greater things that they cannot touch or even see. They are capable. So when they are not touched by mindblowing discoveries about reality, then it is a different explanation as of why that is, rather than "it is normal" or they are "incapable" of grasping. Again, looking at the system of trade, this society we live in, I think we can understand, as I explained, why they are not touched much about reality, but are very touched about all sort of things: fictional stories, movies, consumerism, etc..
The idiots on planet Earth, busy with their dramas, hate, divisions, borders, competition. While they have global problems and common needs.
Their most popular news and activities should be about the wonderful rock they are lucky to be on. The creatures, the places, themselves. There are entire universes inside all of us. Inside even a single cell. There are endless stars and planets out there.
Intelligent species you say!?
Show must go on! The Caesar Roman general was nearly assassinated so now we can gossip, talk, debate, and be busy with this story for months or years. Some empire attacked another killing hundreds of thousands. Have you heard about the wife of the emperor cheating on him?
2024 is the same as 2024 BC. Same shit. Wars, conflicts, gossip, decimation of other creatures and destruction of the environment.
Same idiots, only that now we have internet, electricity and airplanes.
Official music video for Rag’n’Bone Man’s ‘Human’ Track: Human – Rag’n’Bone Man: https://bit.ly/RnBMHuman----------------------Latest Album 'Life By Misadven...
Underlying rights beneath ideas like freedom equality under the law rule of law we find community You Me and all our masks and stories. Wise elders of yore devised ritual stomping into Earth, in communion with planet, land of ancestors, sacred lore. I see your face, study the lines and lessons life has given. Do you see the scarlet streams of suffering so unnecessary missed cues, fear itself, unexpected consequences, collateral damage? If life were simple childish agonies dispelled with dawn’s bright kiss, we would laugh so happy to know cross-purposes, cross-talk easily sorted out in counsel. Cast into sorted cells with little thought to empowering; we could harness the Sun, Moon, birth of the planets, simply allowing our minds to grow.
Here's how "migrants" help save lives and enrich our scientific knowledge of the world - The Cancer Detectives videoneat.com/documentaries/26…
The people who are "nationalists" seem to have no idea that the healthcare they rely upon in their own tribe, the products, the knowledge, architecture, and everything else, comes from many parts of the world. Nationalism = Primitivism.
The story of how the life-saving cervical cancer test became an ordinary part of women’s lives is as unusual and remarkable as the coalition of people who ultimately made it possible.
I would like to recommend this crazy book we made for TROM in 2016 about Language tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-l… - looking through it I am mind blown how much detail we put into it. And how important this book is.
I don't know if I can outdo my past self in terms of sheer amount of work put into these books...I am scared to look at them and realize how much effort was put into writing, sourcing, proofreading, and designing.
It took us around half a year or more to finish this book. Maybe a year I don't remember...
I have other 3 books in the works for the past 2 or so years and am wondering if I am still able to pull this off....
I wanted to start a video series, and perhaps I still want to do that. But writing books feels more natural to me and the end result is m
... show more
I would like to recommend this crazy book we made for TROM in 2016 about Language tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-l… - looking through it I am mind blown how much detail we put into it. And how important this book is.
I don't know if I can outdo my past self in terms of sheer amount of work put into these books...I am scared to look at them and realize how much effort was put into writing, sourcing, proofreading, and designing.
It took us around half a year or more to finish this book. Maybe a year I don't remember...
I have other 3 books in the works for the past 2 or so years and am wondering if I am still able to pull this off....
I wanted to start a video series, and perhaps I still want to do that. But writing books feels more natural to me and the end result is much more important in my view. Like this book about Language is for me lifechanging in regards to this subject, I changed the way I see "language" forever while writing it. And hopefully would have the same impact on those reading it. But if I were to make a video about it....that would be a massive course, not a video. And would require a lot of "performing" and video editing. Presenting, recording, video editing...insanity.
So yah am wondering how to "move forward"....write books? Try making videos?
Currently I am writing about culture. A book/video titled "Culture Cancer". Let's see where it goes....
I did not forget that I have started a book about The Internet and one about Human Behavior.
I feel good going deep into these topics....keeps me sane and more educated. And I like it.
What I don't like, of course, is the fact that I don't find a place for me in this society and I can't really afford to spend many many months, make a great book, then put it for free, and expect to also survive in this bullshit society. That I am struggling with. I've always had. Says all I have to know about how fucked up this society is.
But anyway, I have survived while TROMing for the past 14 or so years, I will probably survive a few more years :).
You should survive man. I like your books. I think I've red almost all of them. Videos might be very cool too, but the amount of work and effort is much more. It's like anyway to create a book first (to make a script) and then film and edit it and put some nice b-roll and extra shot. Massive amount. Sometime me and Mara speaking about how you regardless to anything keep going. Seems always you find a motivation somewhere. I know you told me this many times that you just immerse yourself in work and that's helps you regardless the outcome and results. But still man, you are badass just keeping yourself motivated going trough this fucked up society.
I am loosing it so often, because quite often everything you are doing seems so pointless, and no one really care. And each time it's harder and harder to get up and keep going, because what we do is important. It is important nevertheless what society and our culture find valuable or not.
Recently I noticed you are more frustrated, I hope you will get trough this period. Just keep going man.
I'd say the two are a lot of work but in different ways. Designing a book, proofreading, sourcing, and making huge books overall, takes so much time as you know. But yah, will see probably that's why I am very frustrated and depressed this period of time since I am not busy with the things I love doing. However I started to write again and that makes me feel a lot better.
Thanks for the support and for continuing with your stuff. Like I told you before I thought you'd give up in less than a year. You exceeded all of my expectations and thats great :). It is damn hard to get 0 support from the society for the things that you do, plus the almost impossibility to reach people nowadays.
I am sure that after this bullshit season is over, in about 3 months, things will be a lot better for me/us. You know how crazy this little town is in the summer....but it is the last summer here for us, so at least that makes it easier to deal with it.
It is shocking for me to see, in 2024, that many people are so "nationalists". Our language! Our land! Our stuff! Our people!
It is terrible. We now know that we are one species living on one planet. We have common issues and are connected with each-other and with the environment around in the most scientific way possible. This is what should matter.
You language was stolen from other language and it is in a constant mutation and dynamic changes. Your traditions and food are borrowed and mixed from other cultures and lands. Your territory most likely stolen from others through force, and the stuff you consume is not made in your tribe. Music, movies, and so on, are also remixes from different parts of the world. Your healthcare system relies on the work of people who are/were not from your tribe, and overall the development of science which allows us to build buildings, make food and stuff, and overall understand the world around us is built on the shoulders of humans that came from different tribes.
So fuck off with your nationalism bullshit!
Grow a fuckin
... show more
It is shocking for me to see, in 2024, that many people are so "nationalists". Our language! Our land! Our stuff! Our people!
It is terrible. We now know that we are one species living on one planet. We have common issues and are connected with each-other and with the environment around in the most scientific way possible. This is what should matter.
You language was stolen from other language and it is in a constant mutation and dynamic changes. Your traditions and food are borrowed and mixed from other cultures and lands. Your territory most likely stolen from others through force, and the stuff you consume is not made in your tribe. Music, movies, and so on, are also remixes from different parts of the world. Your healthcare system relies on the work of people who are/were not from your tribe, and overall the development of science which allows us to build buildings, make food and stuff, and overall understand the world around us is built on the shoulders of humans that came from different tribes.
Reminds me of Sasha's Prison Earth video. I wonder if there'd still be any nationalism left if people were allowed to freely move from one place to another without restrictions. Humans make up these imaginary ideas like borders and then use force to make everyone accept them.
This is @Sasha and her most valuable project to date:
A book. But a book is not simply a lot of words or a pile of paper. It is memories, emotions, worldviews, and a lot of work to put them all together. Her book is a story that spans over 15 years. But these years are hardly what most people experience on this planet.
She was born in Russia but at age 8 had to move to the United States and deal with a new world. New language, new culture, new people; her mom, her bother, and some pets. Her father went back to Russia, and that affected her a lot.
A mountain of changes to absorb as a kid which led her to a world of drugs and anger.
She details these struggles which at times feel like hard to believe stories - a 17 year old girl selling drugs in New York, crazy mushr
... show more
This is @Sasha and her most valuable project to date:
A book. But a book is not simply a lot of words or a pile of paper. It is memories, emotions, worldviews, and a lot of work to put them all together. Her book is a story that spans over 15 years. But these years are hardly what most people experience on this planet.
She was born in Russia but at age 8 had to move to the United States and deal with a new world. New language, new culture, new people; her mom, her bother, and some pets. Her father went back to Russia, and that affected her a lot.
A mountain of changes to absorb as a kid which led her to a world of drugs and anger.
She details these struggles which at times feel like hard to believe stories - a 17 year old girl selling drugs in New York, crazy mushroom trips and adventurous thefts.
But she managed to pull herself together and change her life for the better. She was not impressed by the imaginary borders humans create and call countries, so she went on flying like a free bird :). From Canada to Mexico, Australia to Europe, Russia to Thailand. 15 years of adventures with almost no money. Because money won't stop Small Sasha :).
A way to discover the world and yourself.
When you get to experience so many cultures and places, you can understand much better what humans are, and what makes them who they are.
The places she saw and the people she met are extraordinarily described in the book, in a way that you feel like you are there. No photos needed. You'll laugh, wonder, or feel uncomfortable reading some of her uncensored experiences.
It is a galaxy of stories that she had to put together using notes from the past, photos, and her own memories stored in the mushy pile of cells we call the brain.
She managed to compile this massive story in a way that it is super fun to follow, but also to get a feeling of how she grew a mind in all of these years.
That mental growth and her experiences, made her realize how fucked up this society is and how much we are destroying this environment and the creatures in it.
She started to volunteer for some organizations over the years, eventually getting closer to the project I made, TROM. And so here we are, a book later, spending our lives together.
I cannot describe how wonderful this book is, how emotional and funny. So much fun, but also a lot of reality check for many people who are going to have their values challenged.
She crafted this book so much, that at times you feel like Carl Sagan, David Attenborough and George Carlin contributed to the book :).
A wonderful read! A massive CONGRATULATIONS to Sasha for the immense work she put into this. I know too well how for the past 4 years she worked so much on this book that it almost put our relationship under a big question mark. I never saw anyone putting so much effort into anything. It was too intense!
But now it is OVER. Finally! I thought I will never see this happen. Wow!
After so many years of work, and almost no money, she is putting the book for free on her website bigworldsmallsasha.com/ in digital format, despite us not having much money to make a life for ourselves on this planet. But of course, if you want to support her (us) you can buy the physical copy too. Or donate if you can.
I helped design the entire cover and I am quite proud of it :).
Go read it! I know I will read it again. This time the physical copy, in a hammock somewhere in nature.
Sasha you fucking did ti!
PS: The book was made with trade-free software. LibreOffice, Krita, Inkscape.
Wow thank you @Tio This is too nice, I don't even know what to say :) Thank you again for putting up with everything. It was a lot, I know. And thank you for helping me so much, I couldn't have done it without you ❤️
I think the difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers. If Islam or Christianity were to have a few thousand members (a little minority) we would 100% consider them cults. And terrible/crazy/primitive ones for that matter.
In Rome: "Rejection of the state religion was tantamount to treason. This was the context for Rome's conflict with Christianity, which Romans variously regarded as a form of atheism and novel superstitio"
So wait the Roman Empire adopted Christianity but the people living in Rome thought of Christianity as atheism and superstition? I don't get it :D - I have to read the sources :P
This documentary is crazy. To think that this is happening in 2024 is insane. People treated like slaves in concentration camps, brainwashed to extremes.
Rokosun
in reply to Tio • • •@Tio
I sometimes think of death as an external sleep and it makes it seem less frightening, except the pain of death and health issues ofc - those are still scary.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth? 🤔 But yeah I do still wish for some things to change, things like wars and environmental destruction, or the fact that humans are still forced to be like working ants - that sucks because it takes away their precious time.
If you think about it the universe also feels stagnant sometimes, the moon rotates around the earth and the earth rotates around the sun - it has been like that for millions of years. I've heard that the Andromeda galaxy will one day collapse with the Milkyway to create a new galaxy, but the time it takes for that to happen is so long that my lifespan feels insignificant in comparison. Hell most of us don't even notice the
... show more@Tio
I sometimes think of death as an external sleep and it makes it seem less frightening, except the pain of death and health issues ofc - those are still scary.
As for humans not changing in any fundamental ways over many centuries it doesn't feel that surprising to me - isn't this the case for most creatures on earth? 🤔 But yeah I do still wish for some things to change, things like wars and environmental destruction, or the fact that humans are still forced to be like working ants - that sucks because it takes away their precious time.
If you think about it the universe also feels stagnant sometimes, the moon rotates around the earth and the earth rotates around the sun - it has been like that for millions of years. I've heard that the Andromeda galaxy will one day collapse with the Milkyway to create a new galaxy, but the time it takes for that to happen is so long that my lifespan feels insignificant in comparison. Hell most of us don't even notice the trees growing around us because it happens very slowly lol 😄 But the one thing that has had significant changes is our understanding of the universe, we sent humans to space, rovers to mars, etc so that we could study it. We made a giant foldable telescope and sent it into space just so we could see distant galaxies more clearly! 🤓 Hell we photographed a black hole! 😃 So in the end it is still about humanity, the leaps and bounces we make in trying to understand the universe 🙂
Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •Well doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
Those missions are not just "humans exploring out of curiosity" - there are many people involved who just "do their job" as an engineer, scientist, etc.. I remember seeing videos from ISS with "scientists" wearing a cross, and being so "christians"....to me that's so weird. Also celebrating the SuperBall and I bet many watch Netflix in space.
My point is that if we were to discover that inside our skulls there is a green little man pushing buttons....and we have phot
... show moreWell doesnt scare you the thought that you will never wake up or dream? :D - To me this realization that I will disappear forever is really frightening.
No because I am talking culturally/mentally change. No other creature can imagine like humans do. And to find out that you are made up of cells, or atoms, or are other solar systems out there, but not change in any fundamental way how you see your image, is weird to me.
Those missions are not just "humans exploring out of curiosity" - there are many people involved who just "do their job" as an engineer, scientist, etc.. I remember seeing videos from ISS with "scientists" wearing a cross, and being so "christians"....to me that's so weird. Also celebrating the SuperBall and I bet many watch Netflix in space.
My point is that if we were to discover that inside our skulls there is a green little man pushing buttons....and we have photos of that, and so on, but you tell to people about it and they are like "hm, ok, yah" and move on with their life....this is WEIRD :D
Rokosun likes this.
Rokosun
in reply to Tio • • •@Tio
Yeah it is kinda scary to think that you'll never be able to experience the world again, but once you're dead you're also not conscious anymore and without that you cannot miss what you had before. But yeah ofc it's normal to be scared of death, we all are to some extent.
... show moreI think the discovery of these things actually did have an impact on our culture, but perhaps not as pronounced as it should've been. I remember the first time I learned about atoms as a kid, that was a mind blowing experi
@Tio
Yeah it is kinda scary to think that you'll never be able to experience the world again, but once you're dead you're also not conscious anymore and without that you cannot miss what you had before. But yeah ofc it's normal to be scared of death, we all are to some extent.
I think the discovery of these things actually did have an impact on our culture, but perhaps not as pronounced as it should've been. I remember the first time I learned about atoms as a kid, that was a mind blowing experience for me! And I remember discussing about these ideas with a friend who was also blown away by these things. The crazy thing is that it almost feels like science fiction, and I know people have theorized about this idea centuries ago that maybe all matter was made out of some fundamental particles - those were just theories back then, until we discovered through science that it was actually real! Over time I got used to the idea of atoms and it doesn't excite me anymore like when I was a kid first discovering it, but this is pretty normal - it keeps me wanting to learn new things so that I could feel like that kid again 🙂
Religion and science is a weird mix for sure, but I don't know maybe it works in this weird ant worker society we got going lol 😄 Stuff like SuperBall and Netflix could be argued as a waste of time (if someone's spending too much time on it), but at least these are not fundamental beliefs like religion and likewise not as harmful.
Oh yeah I get what you mean, I don't understand people who don't have any curiosity man 😅 It is sad to see people being apathetic to these things. Sometimes when I learn about something really cool and wanna share it with others I have no one around me who could understand it or share that excitement with me, sometimes when there is someone they'll be too busy to have the time for it - experiences like that does make me feel alone sometimes.
Tio
in reply to Rokosun • •The missing part is for the alive ones :P like us. So ofc it is frighting to think about it.
I do not see that impact. People's lives are the same as they were hundreds or thousands of years ago: work, consume, get married, have kids, gossip, and all that. These discoveries didn't even make us feel like one species. We are still divided into tribes.
Yeah exactly....as I was saying since people are so busy to trade mostly. It sucks and it destroys curiosity. It really sucks.
Rokosun likes this.
Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Mmm, depends what you mean by "core of our global society" I guess.
Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In some ways the changes have been profound even at the practical level, let alone the subtler realm of world views (which have changed beyond recognition).
In Stephen Baxter's novels he refers to all the accessories needed for manned spaceflight collectively as plumbing : we need to bring along a hell of a lot of stuff just to keep us going. Likewise, what have we learned that prevents the need for sex, trade and beer (not necessarily in that order) ? Nothing, really. We still need to do all that stuff. It's
... show moreMmm, depends what you mean by "core of our global society" I guess.
Most people are always going to want to concentrate on things of immediate relevance. I mean, yes, cells and galaxies are wonderful and all, but how does that change anything you can do in your day to day life ? For most people, unless you're a doctor or an astronomer, it doesn't.
On the other hand... a lot less people are involved in manual labour today than they were even 40 years ago, let alone 400. How many people even earned a living from website design 40 years ago ? In some ways the changes have been profound even at the practical level, let alone the subtler realm of world views (which have changed beyond recognition).
In Stephen Baxter's novels he refers to all the accessories needed for manned spaceflight collectively as plumbing : we need to bring along a hell of a lot of stuff just to keep us going. Likewise, what have we learned that prevents the need for sex, trade and beer (not necessarily in that order) ? Nothing, really. We still need to do all that stuff. It's just that now our conversations are about different things and proceed from different assumptions. The shift is subtler than changing our gross behaviours - except where technology or other developments make this unavoidable - but no less powerful for that. You don't find people worrying about miasma anymore, but actually disinfecting things properly.
The other factor is that frequent consideration of our place in the Universe on scales both large and small is likely a quick route to insanity. :)
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •Probably "immediate relevance" means whatever they are made to focus on in this society: iphones, gadgets, stupid tv shows, events, consume, drama, etc.. Cells and galaxies and the rest are something one can use to change the way they see themselves and others. Like we are all humans, all connected, no need for artificial separations like borders, nationalities, color of the skin, etc.. These are also wonderful discussion topics and may make people buy a telescope/microscope rather than a new phone. There are many implications resulting from such a scientific mind set.
... show moreProbably "immediate relevance" means whatever they are made to focus on in this society: iphones, gadgets, stupid tv shows, events, consume, drama, etc.. Cells and galaxies and the rest are something one can use to change the way they see themselves and others. Like we are all humans, all connected, no need for artificial separations like borders, nationalities, color of the skin, etc.. These are also wonderful discussion topics and may make people buy a telescope/microscope rather than a new phone. There are many implications resulting from such a scientific mind set.
This has nothing to do with the way people are. A webdesigner today and a house constructor from 600 years ago have a lot in common. Probably both want to get married, have kids, want to buy stuff, trade, not curious about the scientific world, etc..
Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Yes, but most scientists also want to buy stuff, get married, etc. We don't spend the whole time pontificating on the nature of reality because, as I said, it would drive us mad.
I think the general mindset of the modern world has changed, substantially, from where it was centuries ago. Social attitudes have changed radically from where they were even a few decades ago : compare the role of women in the workplace in the 1950s, or how homosexuals were treated in the 1980s. There isn't full equality yet, but good lord there's been a colossal shift in that direction (interestingly of course, if you go back further through history, you often find shifts in both positive as well as negative directions compared to the modern era, e.g. homosexuality in ancient Greece).
Yes, lots of people use gadgets and whatnot for watching stupid TV shows and the like. But they also use them for watching educational stuff.
I dunno, I just think there's no one right way to live one's life. I'm an astronomer, but I'd no more want to force astronomy on those unwilling to do it t
... show moreYes, but most scientists also want to buy stuff, get married, etc. We don't spend the whole time pontificating on the nature of reality because, as I said, it would drive us mad.
I think the general mindset of the modern world has changed, substantially, from where it was centuries ago. Social attitudes have changed radically from where they were even a few decades ago : compare the role of women in the workplace in the 1950s, or how homosexuals were treated in the 1980s. There isn't full equality yet, but good lord there's been a colossal shift in that direction (interestingly of course, if you go back further through history, you often find shifts in both positive as well as negative directions compared to the modern era, e.g. homosexuality in ancient Greece).
Yes, lots of people use gadgets and whatnot for watching stupid TV shows and the like. But they also use them for watching educational stuff.
I dunno, I just think there's no one right way to live one's life. I'm an astronomer, but I'd no more want to force astronomy on those unwilling to do it than I'd appreciate being forced to, say, play basketball. I honestly haven't got a clue what people get out of playing sports but if that's what they like, so be it.
I do wish we could stop the utterly vacuous stuff though : Keeping Up With the Kardaashians, endless celebrity gossip and the like. But I'm not sure it's possible. We seem hard wired to be very interested in judging each other, and no amount of cosmic mystiwisdom seems able to change that.
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •It is not about "pontificating" about atoms, galaxies, and what-not, is about how these fundamental truths that were only discovered recently seem to have no impact on the vast majority of people. And that is very strange.
I am lucky to be around people who are excited about these real things so we often talk about these, we go with the telescope and watch some planets, or look at things through the microscope, etc.. I cannot even watch movies anymore, I watch documentaries. Reality is the most mindblowing and interesting and complex thing, so if you get it, you can't be excited by simplistic human-made stories I guess. And we are far from losing our minds :)
I agree some social attitudes have changed a lot, but many have not in my view. The attitude towards work, the notion of family, the view of us as one species (which is scientifically accurate) does not seem to be a thing in this society - I see a lot more division every day. We have the same core trade-based society where the purpose of pretty much everyone is that of trade. To trade themselves or the stuff they
... show moreIt is not about "pontificating" about atoms, galaxies, and what-not, is about how these fundamental truths that were only discovered recently seem to have no impact on the vast majority of people. And that is very strange.
I am lucky to be around people who are excited about these real things so we often talk about these, we go with the telescope and watch some planets, or look at things through the microscope, etc.. I cannot even watch movies anymore, I watch documentaries. Reality is the most mindblowing and interesting and complex thing, so if you get it, you can't be excited by simplistic human-made stories I guess. And we are far from losing our minds :)
I agree some social attitudes have changed a lot, but many have not in my view. The attitude towards work, the notion of family, the view of us as one species (which is scientifically accurate) does not seem to be a thing in this society - I see a lot more division every day. We have the same core trade-based society where the purpose of pretty much everyone is that of trade. To trade themselves or the stuff they have, for something else. The attitude towards consumerism has become more insane, and so forth.
I also agree that anyone should live their lives as they wish to, I am just observing some facts: how for the past hundreds of years mindblowing things have been discovered about reality, and this had almost 0 impact on the day to day life of people. Imagine if we proved we live in a computer simulation and all scientists agree and we can verify. But yet most people would be like "Yeah, cool..." and move on with their simulated life. Wouldn't that be bizarre?
I disagree that we are hard wired for anything really. We become whatever the environment pushes us to be. Even the way we walk or talk is created by the environment we are raised into. And we can change, never forget that.
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Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Well I do agree that we aren't hardwired for anything very much. In large part, I think, we are society; we are our own environment. Yet there are behaviours like family bonds which, if not truly constant, don't seem to vary nearly as strongly. Hence I interpret some attitudes and behaviours, at least, to be hard-wired, maybe not fully so but much more than others.
I'm fascinated by how other cultures have interpreted reality in very different ways. The modern scientific world view is really very recent indeed and nowhere near complete, or even wholly accurate. I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ? The big ideas don't filter down to that level much except as nth-order effects. There is a deep-seated need to talk to other people, to have friends, to have material goods... whether reality is the atomic waste of stellar explosions or we're actually all living inside the eye of a giant duck wouldn't make any difference to that. In a way, all co
... show moreWell I do agree that we aren't hardwired for anything very much. In large part, I think, we are society; we are our own environment. Yet there are behaviours like family bonds which, if not truly constant, don't seem to vary nearly as strongly. Hence I interpret some attitudes and behaviours, at least, to be hard-wired, maybe not fully so but much more than others.
I'm fascinated by how other cultures have interpreted reality in very different ways. The modern scientific world view is really very recent indeed and nowhere near complete, or even wholly accurate. I would agree that this hasn't really changed any of the basics like the need for family, trade, socialising, but on the other hand, why would it ? The big ideas don't filter down to that level much except as nth-order effects. There is a deep-seated need to talk to other people, to have friends, to have material goods... whether reality is the atomic waste of stellar explosions or we're actually all living inside the eye of a giant duck wouldn't make any difference to that. In a way, all conceptions of reality are equally astonishing (Pratchett, as often, said it best).
On the other hand... nobody goes to the local Wise Woman for medicine anymore (well, with some unfortunate exceptions...), or sacrifices a bull to bring the rain. Some basics haven't varied much but differences of detail are huge. The things that don't vary, I think, are the fundamental "plumbing" and likely will never alter very much at all.
And the thing is, discoveries filter through slowly. We have time to adapt; there isn't much "shock value" in most findings. Even when there is, what seemed revolutionary yesterday becomes normal very quickly indeed. We are extremely flexible. Possibly there's a state of maximum excitation beyond which things are so radically different that they just can't be understood at all, but below which pretty nearly everything becomes normal.
I suppose it might be "scary" in the sense that maybe we aren't as humbled as we should be. On the other hand, being in a state of permanent astonishment and surprise would be debilitating. Flexibility has its advantages.
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •I looked a lot into this hard-wiring "theory" of behavior and I could never find anything of significance especially since humans can always change. So the outside pressures are always the ones capable of changing the behavior.
Well take climate change. It is a huge issue. All scientists agree about that basically. But not much is being done because something else overwrites it: the pressures in this trade based society to seek for profit.
In the same way people are more incentivized and made to watch some silly netflix series than say documentaries (due to ads for example), or find it easier to have chit-chats about nothing things than more interesting conversations because most people are tired due to work. And so on. The notion of a family is quite stagnant and promoted by the same media that everyone consumes.
Most boils down to this trade-based society where people are incentivized to prom
... show moreI looked a lot into this hard-wiring "theory" of behavior and I could never find anything of significance especially since humans can always change. So the outside pressures are always the ones capable of changing the behavior.
Well take climate change. It is a huge issue. All scientists agree about that basically. But not much is being done because something else overwrites it: the pressures in this trade based society to seek for profit.
In the same way people are more incentivized and made to watch some silly netflix series than say documentaries (due to ads for example), or find it easier to have chit-chats about nothing things than more interesting conversations because most people are tired due to work. And so on. The notion of a family is quite stagnant and promoted by the same media that everyone consumes.
Most boils down to this trade-based society where people are incentivized to promote and consume whatever sells best, where most people are busy and consumers, where reality is not really sold/advertised in any way, and so on.
Why would notions like the family, or the idea of work, and so forth be changed by whatever we discovered so far? Because what we discovered shows us we are one species on one planet, and same as with the climate change we should change the way we do things on this planet because we are not doing so well. And where there is no issue that is uncovered by this reality, like climate change, then the view of yourself in this universe should change if you find something new about reality, no?
It is so strange to think this way. Are you saying that if tomorrow we discover that all is a computer simulation, and everyone agrees, wouldn't it be weird if people would have the same lives as before?
I do not think there is a "natural" excuse for this state of numbness about reality. Whenever I show others the Moon or other planets through my telescope they don't even have a clue what these are. And they are fascinated when I tell them. I think the information doesn't reach most people to begin with. You can't be curious if you don't even know.
We could be very different beings if we were to take reality more seriously.
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Rhysy
in reply to Tio • • •Well, the notion that we live in a simulation is essentially Berkelian idealism, which has been floating around for at least a couple of centuries and arguably a lot longer (certainly everyone has wondered at some point, "what if it's all a dream ?"). We've already had plenty of time to get use to the idea, so if it was somehow thought to be actually true, nothing much would happen.
Same as discovering aliens. When we actually do detect an alien signal or some microfossils, or even actual living microbes, I predict the reaction will be... not much. We've been writing stories about it since basically forever - it isn't a revolutionary concept anymore. Shock value is extremely hard to maintain. Sure, discovery of aliens would cause a big press hoo-hah. But unless we actually get an alien spaceship landing on the proverbial White House lawn (or equivalent), it isn't going to change anything fundamental on the long term. Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
Climate change is also a good example. Here's the rub : what can any of us actua
... show moreWell, the notion that we live in a simulation is essentially Berkelian idealism, which has been floating around for at least a couple of centuries and arguably a lot longer (certainly everyone has wondered at some point, "what if it's all a dream ?"). We've already had plenty of time to get use to the idea, so if it was somehow thought to be actually true, nothing much would happen.
Same as discovering aliens. When we actually do detect an alien signal or some microfossils, or even actual living microbes, I predict the reaction will be... not much. We've been writing stories about it since basically forever - it isn't a revolutionary concept anymore. Shock value is extremely hard to maintain. Sure, discovery of aliens would cause a big press hoo-hah. But unless we actually get an alien spaceship landing on the proverbial White House lawn (or equivalent), it isn't going to change anything fundamental on the long term. Anything we can't actually interact with becomes an abstraction.
Climate change is also a good example. Here's the rub : what can any of us actually do about it ? In the case of aliens or simulations, nothing. I can't see why that would make me like or dislike my friends and family any more than I do already : what bearing would it have on anything ? I'm stuck with the reality I have before me. Knowledge of what it "really" is doesn't change anything at all for me : I still experience the same pleasures and pains, so I can't see what difference it would make practically (this is not at all the same as saying I wouldn't find it hugely interesting, however !).
(In the case of climate change, this is a bit tangential, but the answer is still "not much" individually - real differences require different power generation, farming techniques, societal structures, etc. none of which any individual has any real influence over)
It's not numbness, or even indifference. It's just that these things are orthogonal. I think you're taking it for granted that knowledge of reality should fundamentally change behaviour, but I cannot really see why this should be the case. Atomic theory hasn't altered family dynamics - I think it would be extremely strange if it did !
Culture changes enormously, as I said, and I agree that this is largely due to external factors : I'm not disagreeing with you on that one significantly. I further agree that the world would be a better place if more people were more concerned about the bigger issues than the humdrum superficial stuff. It's disappointing and, yes, even a little weird that they're not. But I can't see why any sort of discovery would, or even should, change something as fundamental as the nature of friendships and families. Material concerns could and should be mitigated, but I would think the chain of thought from "what is the nature of reality ?" to "how many eggs do I need to buy today ?" is so convoluted as to make these essentially unrelated questions. Likewise, why would knowing that you're made of atoms or dreams affect whether you fancy someone or enjoy playing tennis or having a beer ? I can't see why it would.
Tio
in reply to Rhysy • •It is one thing for fictional ideas to be around for ages, another to prove one of them is real. The example was to show how a shocking discovery should shock people.
I am talking about the initial shock value that does not seem to happen to begin with in many cases in regards to the contrast between reality and society.
I bet is not about interaction as it is about stimulation. There are many people in awe and shock about galaxies, or cells, or biology, or maths, or other parts of reality, as they are about celebrities, movies, fantasy stories and other things they cannot touch, interact with. It is all about what you stimulate people, culturally, to be interested in.
Like climate change, there are many who react to this bad piece of "news" and are active about trying to do something about it. Where is that motivation coming from since they seem to have no impact on the course of it anyway? It comes from what
... show moreIt is one thing for fictional ideas to be around for ages, another to prove one of them is real. The example was to show how a shocking discovery should shock people.
I am talking about the initial shock value that does not seem to happen to begin with in many cases in regards to the contrast between reality and society.
I bet is not about interaction as it is about stimulation. There are many people in awe and shock about galaxies, or cells, or biology, or maths, or other parts of reality, as they are about celebrities, movies, fantasy stories and other things they cannot touch, interact with. It is all about what you stimulate people, culturally, to be interested in.
Like climate change, there are many who react to this bad piece of "news" and are active about trying to do something about it. Where is that motivation coming from since they seem to have no impact on the course of it anyway? It comes from whatever these people have in their heads. That motivates them.
If you don't feel like doing anything about the climate issue then it is all because you may not realize the importance of it or whatever makes you think is not worth your energy. But in the end is all about what we have in our brains, and that comes form the environment (culture). And this culture/system is a lot, if not most, about consumption and stupid things, so that's what people have in their brains. Of course they cannot get too excited about galaxies or atoms, but they get a lot of excitement when Prince H marries with Princess A, or about some fictional TV show. These are advertised to them a lot.
People used to get married with their cousins or even closer relatives not long ago. It was normal. I think even Darwin married his cousin. Now because of some cultural shits and knowing that it is a bad idea (genetically speaking) to mate with closer relatives, this notion seems disgusting for many. Discoveries, bits of reality, can change and should change the way we think about mundane things.
Knowing that we are all made out of atoms should make us rethink our culturally inherited values such as fictional borders, human behavior, man made laws, and so forth. Why? Because we are part of a greater story and we are all part of the same system. A planet, an ecosystem, dependent on nature, and so forth.
Simply because there is no nature about these things.
Even today there are tribes where children are raised by the entire community and have no notions of parents. Or their relationships are vastly different from the rest of the "civilized" world.
Humans are like plasticine molded by their environment. It is simply that our culture/system is the same for thousands of years: trade, have jobs, mate, have kids, retire, die. Humans are busy at least 8h every day, and when they finish work/school they are so tired that at the best they can chew is simplistic and dumbed down media produced by the same system of trade (workers) trying to sell stuff. It is a self propelled idiocracy that makes people unable to know and digest the complexity of reality that science is discovering. I think that's a better explanation of this situation.
Imagine you take a fish from the sea and the fish could suddenly talk and understand you. You explain to him about the world, the planet, the water, the evolution. If they fish is not even curious, let alone shocked about what you enlighten him with, then I think we should probably consider the fish as non-intelligent, or incapable of understanding. No?
You put the fish back in the sea and he goes on about being a fish for the rest of his life. Why would anything change for him no?
To me this makes the fish look "stupid". Primitive. Incapable of grasping a greater reality.
With humans is different since we know they have the capacity to wonder about greater things that they cannot touch or even see. They are capable. So when they are not touched by mindblowing discoveries about reality, then it is a different explanation as of why that is, rather than "it is normal" or they are "incapable" of grasping. Again, looking at the system of trade, this society we live in, I think we can understand, as I explained, why they are not touched much about reality, but are very touched about all sort of things: fictional stories, movies, consumerism, etc..
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