@Tio

Maybe if they start talking in this way, like we are humans, maybe there will be no more discrimination.

I'm not really sure if it works like that, especially considering how we did not used to talk about these issues in the past and the discrimination still existed back then. But you can also make the case that since discrimination existed therefore people must've been seeing each other differently. I feel like the language alone doesn't have much influence on people's thoughts, just because we talk a certain way doesn't mean people will behave accordingly - same with any of these so called "labels" we use. The reason why many communities had to speak out about the injustices done to them is to spread awareness about their suffering, to fight against the injustice, and to make sure we don't repeat the same mistakes. Many communities are still being persecuted to this day (like tribal people across the globe), in some places people cannot openly admit their own sexuality due to fear of social rejection and sometimes outright harassment and bullying (also can be illegal in many places). So if you live in a place where people can openly express their own identity without pushback or fear of judgement/harassment then I see it as a sign of progress and peace. There is this thing known as privilege blindness, where you'll be unable to see other people's suffering who are different from your own - I have experienced this and I think we all have at some point in our lives, it takes these marginalized groups to speak out and explain their problems for it to reach us or else we'll never know of them.

Therefore the more we talk about reality, us being humans, the more chances for us to see each other as such, and not as gay, black, white, trans, etc..

The funny thing about this is that most people feel like they have to speak out about their identity when they feel like they're not being seen as human due to having that same identity. And it's not happening at the individual level but rather at a systematic level, governments and people in power introducing bills against them and such. You can see people at protests holding signs that says "trans rights are human rights" because they want to be seen as humans but are not accepted by their society/government as such.

especially considering how we did not used to talk about these issues in the past and the discrimination still existed back then.

In the past people were even more divided into tribes, shapes, colors, etc..

I feel like the language alone doesn't have much influence on people's thoughts, just because we talk a certain way doesn't mean people will behave accordingly

Not language, but the understanding that we are all of the same species. And within that we are unique complex individuals. Remember this experiment youtu.be/1mcCLm_LwpE ? The moment you divide people based on these silly attributes, you make them hate each other.

All of the examples you gave with people being discriminated based on this and that, can be approached from the perspective I just talked about in the post. To highlight the primitiveness of why these discriminations happen, to push for more equality, and so on. Instead of making it about black people, trans, gay, whites, etc.. We are all humans so deal with human problems. There are so many "people suffering and they are not part of any group. Dont exclude them.

. You can see people at protests holding signs that says "trans rights are human rights" because they want to be seen as humans but are not accepted by their society/government as such.

And I think that is a big mistake. They want to do something good, but they separate themselves from the ones who are not "trans", etc.. If they were marching about humans being equal and no one should care how one dresses or what they are sexually attracted to, they would include all people who are suffering in that regards.

Groups create other groups, and will exclude others from their groups naturally. Terrible.

Not only they marginalize themselves by making it about trans, blacks, etc.., but reinforce these "differences" based on sex, attraction, skin color, etc. Again a terrible approach.

@Tio

All of the examples you gave with people being discriminated based on this and that, can be approached from the perspective I just talked about in the post. To highlight the primitiveness of why these discriminations happen, to push for more equality, and so on.

I understand what you're trying to explain here, and I hope we as humanity reach there eventually - I feel like our current world is just too divided to make the transition but perhaps it can given enough time..... Like I said this is an idealistic goal we should strive towards.

There are so many "people suffering and they are not part of any group. Dont exclude them.

I didn't imply excluding anyone, there are lots of injustices in the world and we have to fight against all of them, one fight doesn't take away from the other they're all important.

If they were marching about humans being equal and no one should care how one dresses or what they are sexually attracted to, they would include all people who are suffering in that regards.

I think this is truly the spirit that you see within a lot of protestors and activists, even tho the signs they hold up during a single protest may be about one specific thing that doesn't mean these people don't care about other issues. I was watching someone explain some points to take care of when organizing a protest and one of the things he said was that movements without demands become media spectacles without memory - I think this is part of the reason why people try to focus on one specific demand at a time while protesting instead of these vague ideas like equality for all, strategically these make more sense. And also the example I gave was of a slogan, these are a bit different and you gotta be kinda creative to come up with a good one - as they can't be too wordy either.

Groups create other groups, and will exclude others from their groups naturally. Terrible.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that a lot of these are not some made up groups in our head nor imposed on anyone, I feel like you think people get too much attached to these identities but in my experience it's not like that..... For example the fact that men and women exist, doesn't mean we are all very "tribal" about it and exclude each other lol 😄 I understand maybe some people can be a bit weird about these things but most people aren't like that, and I have a feeling that social media algorithms are actually the thing that's truly dividing people but I don't wanna talk about it right now.

Like I said this is an idealistic goal we should strive towards.

I feel like this sentence made sense 150 years ago. Today we have telescopes, we can see cells, DNA, and earth from above. It is time to get more Sagany on people.

I didn't imply excluding anyone, there are lots of injustices in the world and we have to fight against all of them, one fight doesn't take away from the other they're all important.

When you put yourself in an identity group you are excluding the rest. Why should I care about trans people? I am not tras... This is how many will think. But how about caring about human problems? That includes us all.

I think this is part of the reason why people try to focus on one specific demand at a time while protesting instead of these vague ideas like equality for all,

This is not at all a vague idea. You can focus on giving people a UBI. Or no discrimination at the work place in general. Or focus on decriminalizing sexual behaviors that do not harm anyone - homosexuality is still criminalized in some tribes. And so forth. We need to get our heads out of our asses and stop being so simple minded. Humans are a spectrum of behaviors and if we keep on dividing each other indirectly through such "movements" it only accentuates these divisions.

I feel like you think people get too much attached to these identities but in my experience it's not like that

My experience is totally different. Ive seen so many dogmatic people.

For example the fact that men and women exist, doesn't mean we are all very "tribal" about it and exclude each other lol

It is a problem when people are separated into these groups. Look at the islamic religion as an extreme example. But just so you can see my point. Again, we are bloody humans. Thats all. And we are complex creatures. Thats all. We have to understand these and stop with these nonsensical labels - even on fedi it is full of people screaming in their bios about being a white straight male, or a cis trans whatever, or a black robot, or what not. These have become cultish. This kind of behavior is terrible for everyone.

The "romanian" people, where I am from, were (maybe still are) treated badly in other european countries and at some point you could feel that if you said you are from romania..... Not even once I felt the need to talk about "romanians" and their problems, but rather about human problems to put all of this stupidity in context like: we are all humans, the fact that some are born in this patch of land does not say anything about them. You need to know the person behind these invented labels.

If we all had this attitude we do 2 things at once:
1. we talk about this particular issue with this particular group
2. we put it in perspective in regards to who we are as humans

So maybe we fix the local problem and make people think more globally.

If you fix the problem with romanians being discriminated against in europe, fine. But what if you at the same time make people realize the stupidity of countries and nations, and maybe vaccinate them against future discriminating acts against other "nationalities"? Thats my point.

@Tio

I mostly see people bring up these identities when they try to fight against some kind of injustice or try to spread awareness about some discrimination. I don't think people use it to define themselves as a whole, people know that they are all complex human beings with unique personalities and such - it feels kinda banal when stating the obvious. The reason why people talk about these things is for a different purpose, mostly when they are not actually being treated like humans in the first place. I will tell you what the the sad reality of our world is - the moment that these vulnerable communities stop uniting themselves to raise their voice against these injustice their discrimination will continue without obstruction. Because these people don't just live in a vacuum, for the discrimination to end like you say then all of humans have to decide not to put themselves in groups all at once - similar to how we can only end countries and borders if everyone decides to end it together and trust each other on that. So for a vulnerable community that has been discriminated against for so long, how can they trust that if they stop uniting based on their identity that the other side will do the same and start treating them as humans again? This is the dilemma people are faced with.... And even if people "stop talking about these identities" that doesn't necessarily mean the discrimination will stop - what people do matters more than what they say. And sometimes it can even happen on a subconscious level, like even if I don't consider myself as racist or whatever I can still have these subconscious biases that I won't realize unless people point it out - which often requires these communities to speak up and expose these biases.

I understand if trans, black, whites, catalans, whatever groups of people come together to try and fight against the discrimination against them. It is normal. But all I am saying is that the approach is terrible since they ride on the backs of the same division that created the discrimination in the first place.

You can address the same issues without putting yourself into these groups in this manner.

I am not aware that the discrimination against romanians faded away due to any groups of romanians screaming about "us the romanians" being discriminated against. It came from romanians integrating more into the other tribes and the other tribe members realizing we are not all that different. Plus changes in attitudes from romanians, plus more financial equality between the "romanians" and the rest, and so forth.

Loads of people into these groups without being discriminated against. Case in point: catalans. People from Catalonia. We noticed how these "catalans" became more and more cunts with foreigners including spaniards. And we had many discussions about this, since we lived there. I asked a catalan person why are they so ass tight and mean, are they discriminated against as a group and if so where....He thinks and thinks and realizes that yah they are not even discriminated against...but the anger came from an old history of oppression that today does not exist at all. Yet this "identity" of catalans persists making the relationship between humans despicable.

So yes there are wiser ways of dealing with these problems than putting yourself into a group and shouting out loud.

@Tio

I don't know much about Spain or Catalonia to say much here, but if there really is no decriminalization like you say then I agree there's no point in having these groups anymore. With such groups that don't really serve any kind of purpose I agree with you.

What I often notice is that it's the oppressors who initially creates these groups/divisions and the rest are just left to deal with that. If we take the history of racism for example then it's the white people who initially created this division when they started enslaving these so called "black people" and started oppressing them in many ways. There used to be a time when interracial marriage was considered taboo and there was segregation in schools based on skin color, we don't have that anymore because many of these black people came together and fought against this segregation - see I don't think any of the black activists at the time wanted to create their own separate "group" or whatever, instead they wanted the opposite, to destroy this division between humans created by the white people who enslaved them. And you also have people like me who supports the LGBT community even tho I'm not part of that "group", in fact everyone with a drop of humanity in them should be able to see that their cause is just and be able to support them - you can go join an LGBT protest and they'll welcome you with open arms even if you are not yourself gay or trans or whatever, your humanity is what matters not what you identity as. Here again I don't think these people actually wanted to create a group for themselves but other people created it by calling them "weird", "abnormal", "against nature", or whatever other terms get used to discriminate against them. Today we even have bills getting passed where its only purpose is to oppress trans people, it is such fucked up world we live in.

So my point here is that if we actually want these groups and divisions to go away then we should start with the oppressor. It makes more sense to talk to white people at the time and make them understand how "black people" are not different from them and are humans too, that they should treat blacks equally and get rid of this harmful divisive mindset. Because we simply can't expect to have the same conversation with black people when they were so oppressed and powerless. So in a world full of bullies and bullied I think we should start with the bullies and make them see the other person's humanity first, because we can't expect the same from the bullied as long as they still feel threatened.

From what I know the "black people" discrimination in the USA emerged from slavery. Trade. Nothing to do with the color of the skin. Just that people in Africa were forced to be slaves in America. And from there this so called "racism" emerged. This is how you understand problems and try to fix them.

The more equal people are, the less such "racism".

we don't have that anymore because many of these black people came together and fought against this segregation

I can only repeat what I said: this can be done by addressing discrimination in general, and how stupid it is to put people into primitive boxes based on color and such. And idk if you are right...if that is what stopped the discrimination.

see I don't think any of the black activists at the time wanted to create their own separate "group" or whatever,

We dont know, but naturally and without doubt, by putting yourself into a group like that you separate you from others. There are endless examples of the drawback of such things. I am sure we are exposed to very different worlds.

And you also have people like me who supports the LGBT community even tho I'm not part of that "group", in fact everyone with a drop of humanity in them should be able to see that their cause is just and be able to support them

Imagine if instead of that you would be all for respecting people`s sexual identity and behaviors, as long as they do no harm. Why just focus on one group of people? This makes the discussion about such issues simplistic and ignores other similar issues experienced by people who are not "LGBT".

Today we even have bills getting passed where its only purpose is to oppress trans people, it is such fucked up world we live in.

If there was no such group, just humans with their own personal sexual identities and preferences, perhaps such bills could not even be passed. It is terribly annoying to see these people being so attached to such "groups". It has become a cult and it divides everyone. Directly or indirectly.

I am afraid you cannot see my point. Maybe in time you will.

So my point here is that if we actually want these groups and divisions to go away then we should start with the oppressor.

In some cases you may create the oppressor just by putting yourself into a group and call yourself trans, gay, whatever. Now they have something to attack or oppress.

For example I always regarded people as people. Never heard of gay, blacks, lgbt, or any such groups where I grew up in Romania. Then after I left Romania I started to hear about these groups and all it did for me is to hate this bullshit. Because now I see people dividing into these silly groups that cannot define who they are as individuals. If there are problems, deal with the problems without creating and putting yourself into these simplistic groups.

Also when you say white people oppressed black people dont you find it that you are insulting everyone in one sentence? I am a "white man" if you look at my physical appearance, so did I oppress any "black humans"? It is ridiculous to use such primitive labels that stand for nothing. So many black slaves back in the day were sold by black people....

But I have a feeling you oversimplify this entire thing. Look into how racism evolved due to trade reasons (slavery), and so is for immigrants due to financial struggles, and so forth.

A bi tiring this convo....I feel like I am making the same points but they do not reach you and we go in circles.