Can't think of a government that wouldn't think that private conversations being private is controversial.
From the article itself: "But the company has now told the BBC it believes the technology prevents police and safety teams from being able to read direct messages if they needed to."
This is the truth. But it is also part of the point of E2EE. And why governments hate it.
look - realise - anyone that does have shit to hide can ALWAYS do it regardless if law. Bad people can hide communications. These laws only Impact normal people wanting normal privacy. Criminals can always do this. Laws only hit normal people.
TikTok, whose entire business plan is to extract as much information as possible from its users, so they can sell it on / target them, doesn't want not to be able to extract all the information their users aren't giving them... That doesn't surprise me one bit.
The idea that anything going through a company based in China and beholden to the Chinese government is going to be private is laughable, even if they claim to implement E2EE.
In this video I explain how easy it is to understand a power system for your motorhome. How to create new connections, what cables to use, and how to do it safely.
That is great and frustrating at the same time. This "enshitification" is totally a natural result of trading stuff. There is 0 difference between supermarkets putting a 5.99 price on food, or putting candies where people stay in line to pay, or deceiving people with those old ads on TV, and Facebook, Youtube and the like adding clickable ads in the middle of a video or making it play the next video automatically, or not making it clear what is a post what is an ad....
These are trade-based goods and services, and for them to sell, you have to engage in these "marketing" practices.
THIS IS NOTHING NEW!
Pretty much all companies and individuals do these in order to sell shit. All need to be biased towards their own business. Even the local small businesses are doing it. Everyone does it.
So instead of selecting a few of the most outrageous practices, call them shitty, and point the finger at them, better do 2 things:
Understand why these products are "shitty". It is trade, the need to trade, that makes people put more ads, collect more data, etc..
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That is great and frustrating at the same time. This "enshitification" is totally a natural result of trading stuff. There is 0 difference between supermarkets putting a 5.99 price on food, or putting candies where people stay in line to pay, or deceiving people with those old ads on TV, and Facebook, Youtube and the like adding clickable ads in the middle of a video or making it play the next video automatically, or not making it clear what is a post what is an ad....
These are trade-based goods and services, and for them to sell, you have to engage in these "marketing" practices.
THIS IS NOTHING NEW!
Pretty much all companies and individuals do these in order to sell shit. All need to be biased towards their own business. Even the local small businesses are doing it. Everyone does it.
So instead of selecting a few of the most outrageous practices, call them shitty, and point the finger at them, better do 2 things:
Understand why these products are "shitty". It is trade, the need to trade, that makes people put more ads, collect more data, etc.. Currency, data, or attention trade.
Simply make 2 categories: trade-free and trade-based. If a product or a service is trade-free, it means it does not want anything from you, the user. Not your data, not your currency, not your attention. Therefore why would it want to make that product or service shitty?
Makes no sense.
We made a book all about that - tromsite.com/trombooks/#flipbo… and guess what? It is trade-free. Read it online or download it.
Side note....I like Louis but for fucks sake man start prioritizing a Peertube instance and post there rather than on the "shit" youtube....
That video was so genuinely funny I was laughing my ass off 🤣 Truly refreshing to see something like this in this day and age. And I gotta say the Norwegian government is pretty badass for doing this! Let's hope more governments follow suit 🤞
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
That video was so genuinely funny I was laughing my ass off 🤣 Truly refreshing to see something like this in this day and age. And I gotta say the Norwegian government is pretty badass for doing this! Let's hope more governments follow suit 🤞
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
relatively quiet respite near the bathrooms at an overcrowded music festival when I can still hear the music from the stage but I'm not interested in the acts right now, and people are having semi private conversations around me that they've been wanting to have all day but waiting until they could hear each other, and the people chatting are here to see the same bands as me.
That is a nice thing the fediverse offers. Note that if you enter a descriptive email in your account registration, or talk about personal matters in fedi direct messages, then technically you are pseudonymous as the instance admins have access to that information if they wish to.
@draNgNon that sounds a bit like influencer-style social media then. Is it a cacophony in a good way, or not? Would a Google+ like Circles functionality, such as Bonfire are bringing to the fediverse, bring solace?
Firstly, I've only ever experienced Google+ circles in an environment where the participants are similar to LinkedIn, posting about professional topics and/or corporate syncophacy. They are a good way to seal yourself into an echo chamber/bubble, even within that type of discourse
Secondly, influencer social media always feels more like people pitching their point of view or hot take or maybe just themselves. It's about collecting follower count for credibility. Fedi mostly isn't like that but there are some.
Lastly, I'm in the US, right now with political situation there is necessarily disruption and shouting and points to be made. (Some of them might even be correct!). But it does affect social media experience; it would probably make matters worse to increase the echo chamber effects.
@draNgNon thanks, some very good food for thought.
I think the crucial point is that we do not know and do not offer proper ways to deal with different modes of communication, esp. if the only medium channel constitutes a stream of sticky notes, such as we have here in this #microblogging space.
On the first point, when is something an #EchoChamber vs. a healthy interest area, I think depends how well one is able to cross the 'membranes' of all the various social contexts and information spaces one navigates online, as it were.
There should be a place for 'influencing' to an extent if only to reach your crowd and build community and such. But all in balance and proportion and clear social context preferably. Non-profits and #activist groups want to influence, we may want to be informed.
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@draNgNon thanks, some very good food for thought.
I think the crucial point is that we do not know and do not offer proper ways to deal with different modes of communication, esp. if the only medium channel constitutes a stream of sticky notes, such as we have here in this #microblogging space.
On the first point, when is something an #EchoChamber vs. a healthy interest area, I think depends how well one is able to cross the 'membranes' of all the various social contexts and information spaces one navigates online, as it were.
There should be a place for 'influencing' to an extent if only to reach your crowd and build community and such. But all in balance and proportion and clear social context preferably. Non-profits and #activist groups want to influence, we may want to be informed.
To the last point. There's urgency to address the dark world situation, and either organize or lose. #SX defines #CALMculture as a way to engage in constructive #activism..
Some of these can be mitigated by nurturing cultural habits.
> 6. The worst one: people use other names instead to call them so filters don't work.
This one in particular. Besides references to toxic people you see it too with folks saying Gaggle, GMAFIA, Farcebook, etc.
Often these names are used in someone's "activism package", but using them is imho more performative to an existing in-group than that they constructively appeal to others and persuade them to join the good cause.
I posted something related to this today. See CALM culture in..
The acronym also litterally means that our social media culture becomes calmer, and there's better separation to where there's activism, and where the natural talk of the town.
Whatever we think of #AI / #LLM mad hype cycle, we have to deal with its rushed and inhumane dumping of the technology into global human society. #CALMculture is a strategic approach to that allows activist voices to have the most impact in dealing with the dangers of disruptive technology introductions, and focuses beyond berating people and demanding sacrifice ("don't use, or else.."), to creating a process that helps win people over and work together on best outcomes and in direction of solutions.
#CALM stands for Constructive activism-led movements, such as Social coding commons. Coding is social, and #SocialCoding the holistic approach to ensure that.
Social coding commons evolves Social experience design or #SX, solution development for grassroots movements, supported by the #SocialWeb.
In the thread below I copied a post to #Gleam's community with a suggestion to ponder about best outcomes from current and ongoing AI disruption, and deal with risks.
tl'dr I think you might be right. the below are some thoughts but isn't directly addressing what you were saying, it just sits in the same universe.
I've been thinking about this exchange, and what I am seeing on Fedi is there's a tendency on the part of the promoters (especially on Mastodon, but to some extent all of them) to conflate shared interests with server preferences. way back in the day, Usenet was popular, and your connection to it did help as part of your (with a university, or other provider) (username@the.org.im.in.edu) but the discussions were separated by topics (sci.space, talk.bizarre, etc) and at least from what I saw did not become an echo chamber. some topics were moderated.
Reddit is centralized but still tries to do that. however since there's moderation and such still an echo chamber and everyone has throwaway handles.
Fedi is more like usenet, but people instead tell newcomers to find community by picking the right server and using hashtags. that's offputting and also leaves people who don't have time to go digging kind of lost and at the
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tl'dr I think you might be right. the below are some thoughts but isn't directly addressing what you were saying, it just sits in the same universe.
I've been thinking about this exchange, and what I am seeing on Fedi is there's a tendency on the part of the promoters (especially on Mastodon, but to some extent all of them) to conflate shared interests with server preferences. way back in the day, Usenet was popular, and your connection to it did help as part of your (with a university, or other provider) (username@the.org.im.in.edu) but the discussions were separated by topics (sci.space, talk.bizarre, etc) and at least from what I saw did not become an echo chamber. some topics were moderated.
Reddit is centralized but still tries to do that. however since there's moderation and such still an echo chamber and everyone has throwaway handles.
Fedi is more like usenet, but people instead tell newcomers to find community by picking the right server and using hashtags. that's offputting and also leaves people who don't have time to go digging kind of lost and at the mercy of the boosting preferences of whoever does have time. and the hashtags are a guess, and rely on accurate autocomplete (which in my experience doesn't exist), and are often not used by people posting.
if there was a better way to register and define topics other than using freeform hashtags that might help, and also would shut down a lot of "hoa" behaviour like "put politics behind a trigger warning" etc. it would make it easier to avoid undesired topics, by simply not following them. but I suspect that means a change to the AP protocol which is already a mess.
@maikel this is a very cool and relevant direction that explores new social networking use cases and areas, and where reflecting deeply on the social side of the equation will probably pay good divident when it comes to implementing the supportive technical side.
I posted the other day about the social networking direction I am most interested about, which requires healthy ecosystem and inclusive commons based collaboration.
SX considers your applied research area to be exploring the Personal social networking paradigm, which in a more general sense also facilitate the notion of what it means to be "working in commons" on things that are "commons based".
Trust and safety are major concerns, I gather. I am not sure what is the status today, but the Open Hospitality Network at one point was investigating an ActivityPub based p
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@maikel this is a very cool and relevant direction that explores new social networking use cases and areas, and where reflecting deeply on the social side of the equation will probably pay good divident when it comes to implementing the supportive technical side.
I posted the other day about the social networking direction I am most interested about, which requires healthy ecosystem and inclusive commons based collaboration.
SX considers your applied research area to be exploring the Personal social networking paradigm, which in a more general sense also facilitate the notion of what it means to be "working in commons" on things that are "commons based".
Trust and safety are major concerns, I gather. I am not sure what is the status today, but the Open Hospitality Network at one point was investigating an ActivityPub based platform similar to CouchSurfing, where these aspects were also of key importance. @mariha hosts this community.
So the area where my plans go I call "Residential social networking", geo-fenced but inter-connected social networking circles that cover a city, town, or rural area, and which enable their residents to not only create content on the network, but the dynamic apps and services based on local needs that exist in the area. The intent of a residential social network is to engage people *offline* and in activities that support the local economy. Or rather strengthens the Circles of Sustainability in SX terminology:
And all this should be a relatively low-code affair, directly accessible already for a first-time dev. This requires having a mature open standards based healthy technology foundation and thriving ecosystem.
I am a developer, though with rusty coding skills these days, and I might have started a fedi app design in 2018 or so. But this would not have led to the desired outcome, just throw one more app-centric software in the mix.
...like you, no matter how weird you consider yourself to either date or build a support network when you live in a place where that's absolutely necessary for survival.
@unattributed I like that imagery, thank you. That aligns with the notion of a peopleverse/ Forming a road network that connects the offline and online worlds.
Exactly, it's kind of like each person has their own topography of what the Fediverse looks like based on who they are interacting with, and the nodes of interests where they intersect.
I call thinking about how people would experience such a network and taking their needs in account to be examples of Personal social networking in a new paradigm that differs to how we now think about social media (which is in a very technical sense characterized by "people are users").
Well, there are a couple of potential negative connotations to the word user. First, "user" was frequently used in the 90's for the customers that purchased some software products.
Then there is also the connotation of "drug" users.
Maybe the Fediverse is better thought of as groups of participants in communities that may or may not overlap.
first it was about LGBTQ+, then I started to think about autistics, adhd, neurodivergencies, then about BAME.
Most of it, mimics algorithms I have already in my head about minimising the cost of a UK Nat Rep survey (e.g.: the more rare a participant is, the more expensive it becomes in e.g: Cint) for a previous job.
But each layer has to be carefully thought to be the most respectful and inclusive possible.
(part of why I'm preparing for a psychology degree to get some specialisation into Social Psychology).
The goal is, a dating / support app (the fact it is both things is key) where you can find people ....
No, I love ghosts, they have the coolest stories, and I don't have to deal with those pesky living people with their racism and their hate. I also love villages, they're livable, they're walkable and the only real problem is being stuck out in the middle of nowhere, and that downside doesn't really apply online. And bustling: Every place is full of people I want to hear from.
I don't have the time to hear from all of them, but that's just the FOMO speaking.
I am especially annoyed by this practice of referring to companies and people you don't like by dysphemisms, as if saying their real name would summon them like Candyman. Thus "the orange site" instead of Hackernews, "the bird site" instead of Twitter, etc.
I suspect this might have had some utility on Twitter or other corporate media sites, where bot armies would search for a name so they could brigade anyone who disparaged their favorite site or person. But here it's just annoying, and, as you point out, plays hell with filters.
I practiced myself in avoidance of the term, and found that to be refreshing and lending a different perspective.
"Users" carries an aspect of depersonalization, but also implies an ownership relationship that creeps into the developers thinking, and even where the noble ones say "I serve MY users" it has consequences to the entire dynamics around software dynamics, and how the solution deliverable is able to serve the needs of different stakeholder groups.
Social experience design focusses on needs-based development and starts to consider problem statements first for all identified stakeholders in the solution delivery process.
Note that once you are conditioned to avoid the term "User" after a full career of addictive use of the word in that dev context, you start to notice how weird and awkward it really is.
You don't notice that while still addicted to your daily dose of saying "user" in broad generalization and technical abstraction. Devs think it is practical to use the word, pragmatic. But it is not. It is a technical word, and the use is similar to when a dev says "JSON" for instance. It is depersonalized, and that depersonalization seeps deep into the codebase over time. It is a word that anchors devs in the technosphere and keeps them there.
This entry was edited (Tuesday, March 3, 2026, 7:18 AM)
Een sidestep.. Het valt me op dat bijna niemand op de fediverse meer boost. Een boost is een schaars goed, en op zich is dat een gunstige ontwikkeling die aansluit bi het Personal social networking paradigma van SX. Maar voor orgs en mensen die een goede boodschap willen overdragen naar een groter publiek, zoals ook CEDO, is het geen goede zaak. Er moet een goede balans zijn, waarbij ook non-profits en actie groepen het gevoel hebben nut te behalen dmv campagnes i.p.v. tijdrovende friend-of-a-friend netwerk opbouw.
A cosy village with a bustling public transit system bussing in interesting people to see people I like who say hello with a cheery wave as they pass by.
I keep retuning to be any one of those things and more, depending on my prevailing energy/focus here/mood ... that's the beauty -- if frustration at the time it takes -- of being your own algo-creator.
[edit] -- notices "Automated" in the profile. Wonders ... HOW automated !!?
This entry was edited (Tuesday, March 3, 2026, 11:52 AM)
An insight of this thread, also indicated in your post, is that everyone creates their own social experience and can foster good habits to improve it. Fediverse allows us to do that. It enables us to be more social online and improve our 'cyberspace' cultures. A paradigm shift towards Personal social networking.
PS. It is really me, a person formally known as @humanetech at mastodon social. The 'automated' indicator was first of all a tease (a hedonic driver), but also the intent to use this account as an organization channel for Social coding commons, operated by a group of people. Which didn't happen thus far. Things move slow, and time moves fast. There's no automation, just plain masto web UI and me typing :)
An insight of this thread, also indicated in your post, is that everyone creates their own social experience and can foster good habits to improve it. Fediverse allows us to do that. It enables us to be more social online and improve our 'cyberspace' cultures. A paradigm shift towards Personal social networking.
PS. It is really me, a person formally known as @humanetech at mastodon social. The 'automated' indicator was first of all a tease (a hedonic driver), but also the intent to use this account as an organization channel for Social coding commons, operated by a group of people. Which didn't happen thus far. Things move slow, and time moves fast. There's no automation, just plain masto web UI and me typing :)
That said, given the huge disruption we face today with AI et al, much more pondering of the risk and impact are in order, than the random firings of complaints into the ether I see so often. See:
Whatever we think of #AI / #LLM mad hype cycle, we have to deal with its rushed and inhumane dumping of the technology into global human society.
#CALMculture is a strategic approach to that allows activist voices to have the most impact in dealing with the dangers of disruptive technology introductions, and focuses beyond berating people and demanding sacrifice ("don't use, or else.."), to creating a process that helps win people over and work together on best outcomes and in direction of solutions.
#CALM stands for Constructive activism-led movements, such as Social coding commons. Coding is social, and #SocialCoding the holistic approach to ensure that.
Social coding commons evolves Social experience design or #SX, solution development for grassroots movements, supported by the #SocialWeb.
In the thread below I copied a post to #Gleam's community with a suggestion to ponder about best outcomes from current and ongoing AI disruption, and deal with risks.
I posted a Question topic “Ensuring best outcomes from AI disruption” to the Gleam community. I shall copy the text below … As an activist with a strategic mindset I note how so much activism that is out there is very haphazard, inefficient, and m…
Personal take, after thinking for quite a while about that: A larger metropolitan area in the global Northwest. Not too densely populated but far-reaching and covering a lot of real estate. A lot of roads and interconnects in between different parts, partly along areas that have been somewhat structured but in the end not really grown into /any/ kind of meaningful use. And a lot of more clearly outlined neighbourhoods of very different kinds, styles, attitudes and openness towards new arrivals or strangers, including places were you'd like to settle and stay for an indefinite amout of time and ... places, people you'd better avoid without taking a closer look or even stopping there.
Yes, a nice depiction. An intricate social networking landscape is shaping up, where our social graphs fan out to interact in many different social settings and contexts. Lovely, thank you.
Yes, something like that. Including its chances regarding diversity, but also its challenges related to community management, bridging gaps and keeping infrastructure both working and at a sane level. Maybe it's similar problems in general, no matter which kind of network one's talking about. 😊
@z428 yes, this is the focus area of Social experience experience design, which takes on the challenge of overcoming the wicked challenge of cocreation at scale in "herding of cats" grassroots environments, where regular top-down forms of organization and governance like community-building are doomed to fail.
When speaking in a general sense, you can substitute with people, person, human. "The user" becomes "the person", and "user-centric" becomes human-centric or people-centric, whatever fits best in context.
More interesting when not just defaulting to saying "user", is asking the question: Whom are we serving with our software? Who is the audience, who are stakeholders and stakeholder groups that have Needs that must be addressed by our solution?
"Joyful creation", the SX formula that envisions cocreation at scale supported by the social web, discerns between Creators and Clients stakeholder groups. If we apply this formula to Software develpment, then creator might be a Dev, but also Tester, Technical writer, etc. People switch stakeholder hats: A dev being client of an upstream project.
In your case you may have Journalists in a News Media domain. And that "Customer" stakeholder name, may indicate a Sales domain. Or may be a stakeholder group, really.
What I particularly like in your definition, is that it makes clear that "fediverse" by itself indicates a pure technosphere. It enables social communication, and merely facilitates it. What people do on that channel, the way they communicate and how they interact with others then determines the social experience.
SX starts to consider a social experience from the most personal perspective, where a person has individual needs wrt their online participation. Then using the "Pyramid of perspective" this scale up to consider inter-personal relationships, and at the top of the pyramid and at the largest scale we shape the constructs of society together.
(Note that SX is a universal solution development methodology, even though it starts with a focus on social web and software development.)
I hope my response didn't come off snarky, as that wasn't how I meant it - at worst I intended to be a bit pedantic. And relatable analogies are *always* at my fingertips when talking to the inexperienced or "non-tech" social network users, for sure.
But *eventually* we need to draw people in to a little more media- and tech-literate understanding.
I'm bookmarking your blog post, thanks - this is a topic in my current academic modules and my hoped-for masters capstone
What is so interesting is to discern between the technical and social, and I think that most people have a very functional-technical perspective of what it means to communicate online, so to say. Consider it merely as extra channels to interact with others, more choice to connect.
But of course our online social network is much more than merely a channel, and we have to 'project our social' somehow over these thin copper and fiberglass wires, while we try to make sense and interpret the social signals that come from other remote places.
I think we underestimate the impact of communicating online, and the narrow 'social bandwidth' that our current networking tools support. Then we translate online situations to how we would behave offline and get wrong expectations, misconceptions, and subequenctly miscommunications.
We are still all youngers online, still all learning the ropes, while we do social networking offline for 1,000's of years already.
@johannab I for my part are very happy you find this interesting. Addressing the social side is not the most popular among developer-heavy crowds :)
Feel welcome to participate in our matrix channels or forum. The latter serves as a note-taking tool, or - under SX definition - as a commons based prosperity vault, aggregating value over time as people leave their 2 cents.
Note the SX Mindfulness principle of Social coding commons.. the movement moves, or it pauses awaiting value aggregation by the next participant. Timeless. Everything hinges on proactive participation (and on the basis of intrinsic motivation following Hedonic peer production principles).
I am mentioning, as at the moment the movement is slow-moving, since I am looking for income to sustain my work in the commons. In other words I must let the SX Sustainability principle prevail now :)
Here a link to the core principles of Social experience design:
that last line - that's exactly it. I've been mostly under-the-radar blogging my thinking on this again lately (having started making these observations in 1989-90).
My current interest is (re)connecting real-world, localizable communities and real-world Third Places, using digital social tools as *tools* for those human social networks to get their needs met.
So the area where my plans go I call "Residential social networking", geo-fenced but inter-connected social networking circles that cover a city, town, or rural area, and which enable their residents to not only create content on the network, but the dynamic apps and services based on local needs that exist in the area. The intent of a residential social network is to engage people *offline* and in activities that support the local economy. Or rather strengthens the Circles of Sustainability in SX terminology:
And all this should be a relatively low-code affair, directly accessible already for a first-time dev. This requires having a mature open standards based healthy technology foundation and thriving ecosystem.
I am a developer, though with rusty coding skills these days, and I might have started a fedi app design in 2018 or so. But this would not have led to the desired outcome, just throw one more app-centric software in the mix.
Read the blog post, and these are astute observation and valuable way of thinking about the networking environment, both offline as well as online, and how they interact together, how they intertwine. #SX envisions a peopleverse (which is a concept, not a name), a hypothetical space where the interaction is seamless and technology unobtrusively serves our day to day needs.
Often the talk of the town in the #ActivityPub dev circles is about some feature or other, an app functionality and the extent to which it can be made interoperable. Technical implementation details dominate the discussion. And drama ensues on the broader #fediverse if social impact and other externalities are overlooked in an app design.
When comparing #microblogging we have today, it really is like sticky notes on the fridge, which fall off or are removed by people. And we project all communication modes onto them.
I very much think you and I have arrived at the same space, perhaps from different directions and with different vocabularies - I'm still very much learning how to communicate my terminologies and I hope it's OK that you've prompted me to shift into some of yours!
My paid-work background is +/- 30 years in "tech support", but much involved roles with titles related to "integration" , "deployment" and "client care". Good tools are made when we start with UX/SX and work back.
I'm now a (hopefully temporarily) unwaged grad student in an interdisciplinary urbanism/planning/systems program mashing that all up with community-first technology planning.
I have a seminar discussion tonight on a recently assigned "The Mayor's Brief" paper, and I took the approach of presenting and argument that Cities need to own their own social technology tools.
Totally! Cities should have their own tools. I find the whole #SmartCity trend to be dystopic #SurveillanceCapitalism driven, from what I've seen of it. Large corporations in the driver seat, plenty #BigTech, and a general 'drive for control' by technical means, rather than creating and evolving vibrant and safe living spaces by social means and encouragement of close participation of local residents in sustaining that.
It is hard to find sustenance to focus on the important applied R&D in the more social areas, with most #funding and support reserved for the cold hard tech side. While tech can only ever be supportive of "true social". It must address people's needs.
Totally! Cities should have their own tools. I find the whole #SmartCity trend to be dystopic #SurveillanceCapitalism driven, from what I've seen of it. Large corporations in the driver seat, plenty #BigTech, and a general 'drive for control' by technical means, rather than creating and evolving vibrant and safe living spaces by social means and encouragement of close participation of local residents in sustaining that.
It is hard to find sustenance to focus on the important applied R&D in the more social areas, with most #funding and support reserved for the cold hard tech side. While tech can only ever be supportive of "true social". It must address people's needs.
I'm biased but think its urgent to #fund initiatives like Social coding commons and #SX for fedi to stave off existential challenges. I approached @nlnet among others. Current #EU mandate by @EUCommission for @ngi results in a tech-first "code it and they will come", not a peopleverse.
The current fediverse is an evolutionary dead-end for 2 reasons:
1. It has painted itself in a small niche of decentralizing typical social media use cases, by means of post-facto interop and the introduction of protocol decay.
2. Lacking a proper grassroots standardization process, and with the primary mechanism for fediverse extension being only post-facto interoperability, there is no way out.
Congratulations to the early adopters, who managed to "cross the chasm" with their own app platforms. It took true grit to become deep #ActivityPub experts, and plug holes needed for your app, but you have made it. Post-facto interop works in your favor now. You are unrestrained to productively add more features in your app, and put them on the fedi wire for others to deal with.
To avoid fedi to become less and less attractive to newcomers, we must now consider:
“Why do we want to grow the open social web, and for whom?” -- @ben
I follow Evan, and Julian, but those threads sometimes cause me to glaze over - I've never been "a coder".
That said, I just re-read that one and holy cow, I'm seeing lots of analogies to problems with the DICOM protocol which DID drive my tech services/deployments work for decades.
One of the hardest challenges in keeping a human patient's medical records in order, and secure, is that different stakeholders need different relational connection to different components
DICOM data structures get crazy twisted, because every element in a recordbase could potentially be the point which is seen as the "root" from which everything branches.
Radiologists view Images, which have attributes including the Study, the Order, and the Patient.
Clinical care delivery people need Reports, which derive from Studies but also include Orders and Patients as attributes.
Primary care physicians are concerned with Patients, who come with 1:n relationships with attributes such as Orders, Studies, Reports, referrals, results, diagnoses....
Patients don't give a shit about having any attributes at all, they want to feel better and get the hell away from anything to do with medical technology!
I can see AP being at least as ridiculous as DICOM, though social networking is probably slightly lower-stakes for most. 🤣
I think what you will find interesting, and what immediately leads to a sort of mindset shift - which is required to fully grasp the holistic approach that SX follows - is that SX defines #SocialNetworking as follows:
"Any direct or indirect human interaction between people."
Period. That's it. It encompasses that vast scope, which includes both our offline and online worlds (handy, to focus on that peopleverse).
A healthcare system is a complex mulitplayer environment, where many people in different stakeholder roles work with sensitive data. That is the technical perspective.
On the social side, it is a social network, for which you can apply SX as the evolutionary solution design methodology.
I'm out of it now, but wow, it would be immensely beneficial for a patient to truly *own* their medical data lake and just exchange the relevant records when needed.
It would also be several lifetimes' work to do that correctly, I fear, and there are eleventy-million and one startups making their own wrongheaded attempts at it with "patient portals" and "AI health" and other such malwares.
Just start small and 🍀 evolve. A good example is the Netherlands where I live. In the 50s it was as car-heavy as any US state today, but by following a consistent policy we turned it into a bikers' paradise. And that is now an exemplar for other cities and even countries across the world. An export product :D
hahaha - your example appears somewhere in my world almost daily - urbanism studies, active transportation folks I follow, and in my fediverse-urbanism interconnections all the time.
It's amazing what we can transform if we get the entrenched and unimaginative status quo out of the way.
What no one has remarked thus far, is that this #poll has a serious flaw. Sure, if you're in a village or city you can find roads and highways that lead you to answer the question above.
But if you are in a Ghost Town out in the wilderness, the poll likely won't pass by your timeline. And warp the outcome of this little #fediverse survey.
Boosts are appreciated so the poll has more chance to find the outer reaches of our fedi universe.
Even more remarkable is the near complete absence of the #ActivityPub developer community in mingling in the social side of the discussion.
To learn how #fedizens actually *experience* this here fediverse. A #fediverse which results from them tying their apps together, to hopefully get more than the sum of individual parts. By means of facilitating #interoperability, technically speaking. But it involves more than getting that feature across the wire to the next app.
There's exists a clear gap between #sociosphere and #technosphere, where the latter must serve the former to bring real solutions. Otherwise it is all apps and not much seamless social fabric to navigate. No peopleverse anywhere in sight. Just apps and
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Even more remarkable is the near complete absence of the #ActivityPub developer community in mingling in the social side of the discussion.
To learn how #fedizens actually *experience* this here fediverse. A #fediverse which results from them tying their apps together, to hopefully get more than the sum of individual parts. By means of facilitating #interoperability, technically speaking. But it involves more than getting that feature across the wire to the next app.
There's exists a clear gap between #sociosphere and #technosphere, where the latter must serve the former to bring real solutions. Otherwise it is all apps and not much seamless social fabric to navigate. No peopleverse anywhere in sight. Just apps and users of them.
The apps see great success, and I enjoy their use a lot. But I don't see a future for the app-centric fediverse where it comes to providing mankind the future of #SocialNetworking.
The current fediverse is an evolutionary dead-end for 2 reasons:
1. It has painted itself in a small niche of decentralizing typical social media use cases, by means of post-facto interop and the introduction of protocol decay.
2. Lacking a proper grassroots standardization process, and with the primary mechanism for fediverse extension being only post-facto interoperability, there is no way out.
Congratulations to the early adopters, who managed to "cross the chasm" with their own app platforms. It took true grit to become deep #ActivityPub experts, and plug holes needed for your app, but you have made it. Post-facto interop works in your favor now. You are unrestrained to productively add more features in your app, and put them on the fedi wire for others to deal with.
To avoid fedi to become less and less attractive to newcomers, we must now consider:
“Why do we want to grow the open social web, and for whom?” -- @ben
In a technical sense constituting a shift towards a fediverse of apps and services.
In a social sense as inter-connected spaces that are open for people to explore, collaborate, cocreate, and do all the things we do offline to the extent we can do them online too, plus all the extra's that remote connection by technological means have to offer.
But that is an exploratory design area. A vast space hardly explored. This is where Social experience design focuses. See the diagram at coding.social where SX broadens horizons by taking a more holistic approach (actually utterly holistic and boundless in scope, as SX scales from personal to societal levels).
What #SX envisions is a peopleverse. A hypothetical place-to-be in the future where our online and offline worlds are seamlessly intertwined and in services of our day to day activities and human needs.
Adding a marker to this poll on how people experience the fediverse, with absolutely delightful outcome and responses, but also showing the huge gap to the developer community who seem to be lost in tech and their own app domains.
Don't worry it is more a note-to-self on the forum which serves as note-taking tool. The link it includes is to the poll at the top of this thread. Other than that I have tooted all over the place on the subject matter, which is unfortunately now all dispersed and sinking in timeline history (though I kept a bunch of bookmarks).
@lproven ouch, I am sorry. At least it serves the goal of making social networking better. And the results thus far we are a long way on the road towards a Personal social networking paradigm shifts that provides you more control in finding the crowd you're most comfortable with.
yes, I can understand that, and when e.g. we compare with LinkedIn, then it is all full of "add your like" polls that are not more than influencer growth-hacking. We should not get there.
Note that I posted this against a backdrop of warning for existential threats that the fediverse also faces at the same time. The top of this thread and onwards gives a good summary..
The thread has many forks that delve in the interesting underlying social dynamics that we'd benefit from if we better understood them, and able to support them in our tools.
For example the discussion triggered by @johannab in this response..
My problem with using person vor journalist is as follows:
- The Organizations are the actual, paying customers (Sales domain, but also grouping element for authorization checks) - We have journalists on both ends of our software. *our* journalists produce news which the customers journalists use to write their news - people are everywhere in our system. So we need words to differentiate between them
You may look at domain driven design here, the 'strategic design' parts, that is.
The solutions are to either use more specific stakeholder names than "Journalist", and perhaps make Journalist a stakeholder group.
Or distinguish the bounded contexts that define and restrict the meaning of Journalist to a particular sub-domain. Bounded contexts form consistency boundaries in the software design, and when you communicate across boundaries you can take contextual or semantic differences into account.
That is the part where tactical patterns apply, like an anti-corruption layer between the different journalistic contexts.
ECommerce is the usual example, where an Order has a different meaning to the Sales domain than that it has to Billing or Shipping. And the data model of the Order has different fields in each of these sub-domains.
I do know about bounded contexts and DDD. Our code is structured to make clear in which context we move. I guess its more of a "Ubiquitious Language" Problem when talking with people about what we need to do and what not.
Did I mention that not *all* our "users" are journalists? Some are just "consumers". So I still need a word to mean both at the same time as they are the ones to get authorized to different parts/services of our Software.
Yes, ubiquitous language. I created an excalidraw copy of a diagram that you see quite often to explain the idea. I adapted it slightly for the purpose of coding.social
I can't say what are best name choices in your case, but at least I feel confident that it is possible to entirely avoid "user" and benefit from some extra clarity by doing so.
Hmm... Well.... I thought at least a good year about these questions and did not yet come up with better words.
I mean, yes, our journalists are creators, which clarifies that. But then our users would be consumers and thats not better. And I cant call them journalists as not every user is one. So client maybe? But that would be a better fit for the Organizations as they are the ones talking with sales and paying the money.
All in all: I really am at a loss for better words here.
I was going to answer a cozy village after seeing how crazy a place like BlueSky is whenever emotions run hot, but then I realized that effect is exactly the opposite of a cozy village.
The best and worst part of a cozy village is that you know everyone, but you can't get away from them so the limited diversity means you're always stuck on the same things. If you don't enjoy those exact same things you either keep to yourself or you leave.
In a bustling city, it takes effort to find your tribe. Even though you're in a much larger population center, your in-group can end up being far smaller than it would be in a cozy village because everyone has a much larger number of choices of groups they can belong to.
Being lost and NOT being able to quickly feel like you belong is exactly what you'd expect to experience in a bustling city.
This entry was edited (Wednesday, March 4, 2026, 9:14 AM)
You are certainly not wrong. And I apologize, as it is not immediately clear that my post above is against the backdrop of 2 weeks of microblogging addressing a whole range of paint points and inhibitors to a fedi that evolves to be the future of social networking. Microblogging is too fragmentary and 'context-lossy', but unfortunately the primary comms channel for the dev community.
The gist and big issue is that the current fediverse is app-centric in nature, and accepted a work method that will further that app-centricness by introducing ever more protocol decay and tech debt. The examples you gave above are app talk, turn to features, howto federate feature, tech talk, get mired in impl details. And importantly: do not catch up with standards. That is up to some poor volunteers, who see that things are going side-ways.
There are 2 fediverse forks: the promised one in the AP specs, and the one we have. There's no shared vision, and tons of misconception to deal with.
Mastodon is a loose networking of occasionally like minded people who take the time to look for the tags and individuals that interest them. A community doesn't have the ability to just disassociate from problem people.
It's a neighbourhood in an old city, a chowk. I see a lot of the same folk and we look after each other. There's a river that connects us to other parts of the city, and market gardens, and hills still covered with forests. I look after an old monastery at the base of one of those hills, with a big tree in the courtyard. There's quite a large bazaar nearby and many friends have workshops and sell things there. Sometimes I go for a cycle ride to other neighbourhoods where I have colleagues or friends. Folks come by for morning rituals or just good food. Sometimes drunk twats from the business district get lost and show up here, so someone has to help them leave.
@yetiinabox this I really like as a mental image depicting the future of social networking.
A rallying cry of coding.social is to (dare to) Reimagine Social. To reimagine social networking holds a challenge to think out of the box, and distinguish the sociosphere from the technosphere that should support it.
On the social side we can pursue dreams together, while we materialize them as we realize corresponding technology visions on the technical side.
We are nowhere near of the deliberate solution design of our dreams (pun intended: added wordplay), but framing your technology effort in a proper social context is a great way to more meaningful and purposeful software development. Good examples are @Bonfire and @Framasoft
Framasoft lets the artwork, created by @davidrevoy, speak for the vibes and values of the open technology landscape they envision. The imagery depicts the dream driving the vision.
To Reimagine Social our place on the Fediverse Adventure Map is here ...
For me the fediverse is more like a cozy village, because, unlike you, I only have a few hundred followers. But they’re quality followers that interact, which requires time to reply to their comments. And I only spend a couple of hours online. I paint, draw and make music most of my day.
With developer verification, Google's Apple envy threatens to dismantle Android's open legacy Questions remain as Google prepares to lock down Android app distribution in the name of security. arstechnica.com/gadgets/2026/0…
I wish you made it more clear that this only affects stock android users and not all android users. Unless something has changed since last time I checked?
@fdroidorg ah yes those 3.9 billion users who can't be bothered flashing LineageOS but are definitely hosting their own services! Look, all snark aside I appreciate the argument of potential exposure and yes I see the advantage in having for example Jami available on stock Android or even iOS but let's not pretend that installing a couple free apps will make a difference when you also have GApps TikTok Whatsap Tinder running. I'd focus on the target audience at this point
This is not a purity test, we don't want or need 100% FLOSS or "go away". No, each step, each #FLOSS app that replaces a proprietary app is a win. Just because you/me researched and were able to buy a device with an unlockable bootloader and a custom Android version available, does not mean that 3.9 billion users should be abandoned or punished.
Hey guys, I think the major concern here is that it will affect the entire Android ecosystem because this policy is targeting developers not users. How many FOSS developers would keep making apps for Android after this? Even if you are on a de-googled version of Android that won't add this restriction you still need developers to keep making apps or else you won't have anything to install/update. So there is still great cause for concern here!
@skywalker2k17 Ars please be more explicit next time! @fdroidorg are concerned because it will reduce their potential user base and thus make it harder to reach those users that don't know about libre apps but that would have been interested if they had a chance to try
@skywalker2k17 what you say is incorrect, please do a search if you don't believe me. It affects so-called "side loading" on stock android but not aosp. If you reason about it logically for a second, why would aosp devs merge in an upstream change that would in practice break the project? Re stock android, sure it reduces the ability of people to access free software but otoh on a phone that's infested with gafam apps having a couple free apps imho makes no difference
When someone says „Scientists do not want you to know“ you can dismiss everything from there on. Scientists want you to know. They are desperate that you know. They can’t shut up about what they found out and want you to know.
wait, I was told, that there are too many bees, in some regions (partly because of human-organized honey production). They are pushing other pollinators out of local ecosystems...
As for the other points, well, small Antarctic-base sized scientific settlement on Mars would be cool, but huge 2-stage rocket without high-power 3rd stage probably won't be enough for that, which was now officially admitted, after all.
The AI bubble is problem. And as for water and climate, nobody can deny this, of course.
I think it won’t be more than 10 years, before Elon Musk after his data centers in space failing, suggests that it would be better to launch humans into space so we can fit more data centers on earth…
By that time he’s already become techno-pope with his own religion, and will frame all this is ”spiritual” cultish terms, like ”expanding the light of conciousness” or similar. 🤔
Earth is not well. The promise of starting life anew somewhere far, far away—no climate change, no war,
no Twitter—beckons, and settling the stars finally seems within our grasp.
Agree... by the way, I think that a self-improving city (that is able to build other cities) on Moon or Mars cannot even be implemented now, because economy depends on so many things, one city is not enough... I think someone should study this and enlighten Elon Musk about it.
The important thing here is that we could have both a paradise on earth and space exploration. The scales have been purposely tipped by capitalists. They want us to believe that there are not enough resources for all of us to survive and flourish on our beautiful planet and to explore our wondrous universe. They hoard the wealth and watch us fight for scraps. Let's never forget that we are many and they are few.
I don't want your AI slop, I don't want your fake docuflop. I don't want your fascist state, I don't want your racist slate. I don't want you MAGA here I don't want your MAGA anywhere.
We are continuing to actively fundraise for financial support to develop a Wayland compositor for Xfce(xfwl4).
In the month of February, we have received 52 donations (Xfce: $419.61 & Xfce(EU): €634.10). To date, we have paid out $15,050 for work completed on xfwl4.
Thanks again for your generous support and ongoing donations. We are grateful for your commitment to help improve Xfce.
If you would like to help financially support the development of a new Wayland compositor for Xfce, you can do so by contributing funds via our #OpenCollective accounts.
These contributions will help pay for the funding of longtime Xfce core developer Brian Tarricone to create xfwl4, a brand-new Wayland compositor for Xfce.
Xfce is a lightweight desktop environment for UNIX-like operating systems. It aims to be fast and low on system resources, while still being visually appealing and user friendly.
We're happy to announce a long-term partnership with Motorola. We're collaborating on future devices meeting our privacy and security standards with official GrapheneOS support.
This is the best news I've heard recently. Atleast now app developers will ditch the Google Play Integrity crap and provide first class support for alternative platforms.
really hoping this is gonna be cheaper than a pixel at current prices cause that'll probably be a killer for me if a graphene OS phone costs 900 dollars
It was your point that Motorola is the partner because they want to make money. If the people are only able to buy their phones after some others already did and now resell them, I don't See how they profit. People buying the high Ende devices for Graphene may exist AS well but in WhatsApo rate
Lots of these are giving up even more security features.
> hardened_malloc, malloc-ng, or mimalloc-secure
These aren't the same classes of allocators at all. Neither the musl malloc or mimalloc is a hardened allocator. mimalloc is performance focused and musl's is focused on low memory usage.
> What are your thoughts on what to do in case the day comes that Google kills AOSP?
What about when IBM decides to kill systemd, GCC and GNOME?
@lumi @alexia The current default software stack for desktop Linux is kind of terrible and the lack of coherent threat model or proper ecosystem of sandboxed applications are major issues with desktop right now. What I am still questioning is whether it is even possible to make a proper competitor to ChromeOS (if we ignore the hardware insecurity of basically all PCs).
So example software choices: systemd -> dinit or s6 sudo -> s6-sudo (setuidless) glibc -> muslc glibc malloc or jemalloc -> hardened_malloc, malloc-ng, or mimalloc-secure (which supports more CPU architectures) bubblewrap (sandbox used by Flatpak) -> #syd (it's written in Rust, has many important exploit protections, and can even be the user login: g
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@lumi @alexia The current default software stack for desktop Linux is kind of terrible and the lack of coherent threat model or proper ecosystem of sandboxed applications are major issues with desktop right now. What I am still questioning is whether it is even possible to make a proper competitor to ChromeOS (if we ignore the hardware insecurity of basically all PCs).
So example software choices: systemd -> dinit or s6 sudo -> s6-sudo (setuidless) glibc -> muslc glibc malloc or jemalloc -> hardened_malloc, malloc-ng, or mimalloc-secure (which supports more CPU architectures) bubblewrap (sandbox used by Flatpak) -> #syd (it's written in Rust, has many important exploit protections, and can even be the user login: gitlab.exherbo.org/sydbox/sydb…) GNOME or KDE -> XFCE (when their new Rust Wayland native WM is finished) gnutils -> *BSD or uutils
The issue of course with most of these alternatives is that they are separate projects and therefore dont have the same goals, methods, or threat models. Also most of these projects are written in C which does not help at all. Also there is of course the lack of a proper chain of trust from the hardware to loading the kernel and userspace.
It may just not be reasonably possible to provide a alternative without millions of dollars of funding and a decade of development. It would be nice for there to be an alternative to AOSP/ChromeOS or even MacOS for desktop computing which actually takes security seriously. It doesnt even need to have be completely on par when it comes to security, just do better than current Linux distros (not a very high bar).
What are your thoughts on what to do in case the day comes that Google kills AOSP?
@GOKUSHRM Our partnership is Motorola is not exclusive and we're fully allowed to partner with other OEMs. However, we don't currently have the resources to partner with additional OEMs and it will likely be a while before we do.
Partnerning to make smartphones with a company which recently discontinued their smartphones doesn't sound workable. The point is also mainly getting an OEM to raise their security to meet our requirements rather than getting an OEM to sell devices with GrapheneOS.
@GOKUSHRM We're not going to lower our standards to expand device support so if they can't or won't meet the requirements then there's not much to talk about. That's why most of the smaller OEMs are ruled out because they can't afford or are at least unwilling to invest in the required security including long term updates and a high end SoC. The device itself doesn't have to be high end as a whole but the SoC needs to be high end to get long term support and the current era security features.
@GOKUSHRM SoC licensing is very expensive especially for the latest and greatest. No one really wants to use a flagship SoC in anything but a flagship device.
doing PGO on a development build (considering the guide is meant for developers) is insane IMO
that's something one would do on their final fully optimized build, not for development, and specially not if the need to debug anything in native code is there...
from what i recall in my encounters with googlers: it's pgo.
from my own experience on gentoo lto adds around 30% memory pressure and pgo adds around 50%, compile time is mostly unaffected with lto but pgo quadruples it.
meaning you could run with less memory, by reducing the amount of parallel builds, except that would make the already long 6 hour build time increase close to exponentially
This entry was edited (Tuesday, March 3, 2026, 11:15 AM)
It has a package manager and has out-of-band updates to the APEX and APK components along with separate updates for boot, vendor and system images. Most of the core userspace OS is in APEX modules now.
also keep in mind each compile thread uses memory. blender rn uses like 30 gb to compile because i'm giving it 24 threads, especially when it comes to the render kernels bit since it's a single giant file.
It's the number of logical cores which determine the number of jobs by default. In general, Android builds should have 2GB per logical core unless the number of jobs is lowered.
note that, as i mentioned on the thread before, back in 2019 i tried to build it on a 7th gen i7 (so 4/8 c/t) with 16 gigs of ram and a sata ssd, after 3 days of non-stop building, i gave up
and that was when the minimum recommendations were still 32gb of ram
@rogueren @1a5cff5118d071a2c5d46534733abb9f3dcdfc41b24db0132fc20dbf01c75f78 A large portion of the GrapheneOS hardening is device specific and having device specific builds is inherently more secure due to lower attack surface and being able to specialize the builds with features like RANDSTRUCT for each device model. Aside from that, most of their devices aren't going to be able to meet our requirements. It will initially be several flagships meeting our requirements and then more over time.
@1a5cff5118d071a2c5d46534733abb9f3dcdfc41b24db0132fc20dbf01c75f78 it'll almost certainly be specific devices just due to how ARM chips work. Every chipset needs its own special drivers, which means you can't make a universal version to run on most devices. On top of Graphene being very strict on hardware feature requirement, which was part of why Pixels were the only supported phones until now
Currently things are fine with Android but Goigle keep moving toward making Android more locked from software and apps. Is not this going to be a problem to what we have now? or there is a workaround?
Looking forward to seeing where this partnership takes the project. It's been great watching continued support of the Pixel line of phones, so throwing in an official partner organization is exciting.
I don't care if it's shit, I don't care if it's 1500€, I'm getting one. Ideally more than one if it's on the budget end. A budget Moto G at the 150€ mark with GrapheneOS would be the ultimate "if i'm under risk this is becoming a foldable".
@bill88t The initially supported ones will be expensive flagships but we do want to have budget devices eventually. It's harder to meet our update and security feature requirements for those. Look at the Motorola Signature (2026), Motorola razr ultra (2026) and Motorola razr fold (2026) for an idea of how the next gen devices will likely be. These current gen ones are way closer to our requirements than previous devices but not quite there yet.
@dalias @lumi @alexia GrapheneOS has to get huge adoption and major partnerships before we can start on our much longer term goals of moving away from using a Linux-based OS as the core operating system to a more secure platform. We want to be running the current application layer part of the OS solely via virtualization eventually. We don't expect to ever make the Linux kernel and overall model it supports on top secure enough for our goals. We'll still need the AOSP-based OS for apps.
@lumi @alexia I'm excited for GrapheneOS success for people it's for, but I fundamentally don't like the Android (AOSP, not even talking about Google) model of how basically anything works. Non-Android mobile OS options are what I want. Ones where I have full root, can run a small set of trusted apps from my distro just like I would on a laptop, and where everything else runs in an extremely restricted sandbox. I don't want those relationships inverted where a gigantic pile of Java code I could never understand or build or modify is the root of authority and I just have to trust that it's going to let me do what I want.
@lispi314 @King_of_Ooo @alexia @lumi AOSP has a far larger development community than desktop Linux. There are a huge number of both corporate and community AOSP-based projects. There's a massive community of people working on all kinds of projects related to it. Desktop Linux is assembled out of a bunch of barely maintained or developed projects with one of two developers each. It has nearly non-existent systemic work on almost anything aside from systemd gobbling up components into itself.
You'll have to explain why/how IBM owns GCC. Fairly sure it's an actual FSF project.
GNOME?
RIP lol
Other than the accessibility stuff most of it I don't care much about, and with the ensloppification going on & Red Hat apparently insisting on it, it might well die anyway.
What are your thoughts on what to do in case the day comes that Google kills AOSP?
This however has real chances of happening and already has a largely closed development process with no community.
Which means it doesn't even need a poison pill contributor agreement, all the necessary rights are probably already in Google's possession for malicious license changes.
Not to mention that the main useful part of Android, the drivers & their documentation, aren't even included anyway. Everything else could be replaced by something better with some work.
@lispi314 @King_of_Ooo @alexia @lumi systemd won not because it's good but because it actually exists as a somewhat coherent basis for an OS providing the features which are wanted. It didn't have to be a sensible or good implementation of almost anything. It's far from only an init system and the overall desktop and server ecosystems are increasing based around it. All the non-tiny desktop Linux stack ports to mobile are heavily using systemd. They're bringing systemd to mobile, not Linux.
> You know, if you're just going to avoid the question you could simply not answer that post, like you did with my mobile modem isolation question.
Don't know what you're talking about. You're one of hundreds of people.
> The overwhelming majority of the BSD tooling
It has little to do with the desktop software stack. That increasingly only has an incomplete port over to BSD with a growing amount of hacks. It would just roll it back even further.
@King_of_Ooo @alexia @lumi You know, if you're just going to avoid the question you could simply not answer that post, like you did with my mobile modem isolation question.
The overwhelming majority of the BSD tooling that isn't systemd could be ported with a modest effort if systemd died. Note that I linked daemon supervisors earlier, because session managers and init systems are a lot easier to come by.
edit: Ah, my bad, I confused the subthread. You did ignore it and replied to the prior post.
@bobkmertz @greenpete @joe9nf That was most likely the modem and in some early mobiles there was zero isolation preventing the modem from simply reading all the memory bus.
(The modem should be understood as a blackbox device at the mercy of hostile infrastructure providers & "authorities", it is attack surface.)
I would hope that such isolation is part of the GrapheneOS safety requirements.
@bobkmertz@techhub.social See grapheneos.org/faq#future-devi… for our list of requirements. Cellular modem isolation has been present on even the first device we supported (Nexus 5). It predates having proper isolation for Wi-Fi / Bluetooth.
given that Moto will have to release new devices with the support, I really hope to see something "small" - iPhone 13 Mini / SE size, for less than 1000€... One can dream.
my worry is about durability. A small debri when folding it and it's game over. I love the idea of ThinkPhone, just needs a small variant! Durable, secure and small.
If they #Motorola could add #LoRa or something similar that could be a game changer.
They would offer something that other companies don't, while there is demand from users.
It also brings privacy advantages as it makes it easier to communicate undetected from cell towers. People are starting to roll out networks covering wide areas.
In addition to that, it adds an element of resilience where people could continue to communicate even when cell towers are shut down. This is especially important during national disasters and governments overreach shutting down internet access.
Whether they'll be sold at retail with GrapheneOS preinstalled as an option isn't a question we can answer yet. It mostly comes down to Google's requirements and the extent to which those can be worked around or pushed to be relaxed.
@ferricoxide @luana No, it's a much different feature than the incomplete implementation for desktops. The entirely of the firmware and operating system are cryptographically verified with downgrade protection. The secure element is used to store the version metadata for downgrade protection for the OS and efuses are used for the firmware portion of it. It's fully integrated with the A/B update system with automatic rollback until reaching the home screen successfully.
@ferricoxide @luana It's the status quo on existing devices and has been one of the hardware requirements for GrapheneOS support for many years. Verified boot was introduced on the Nexus 5X and moved to an earlier version of the current approach with the Pixel 2. We've supported it since it was available and began considering it a requirement shortly afterwards. We only supported 2 generations of devices prior to it being available which could still be locked and had the firmware verification.
This is a premature joke for the 1. April, right? 😳🤔😂🤣
Choosing a company like Motorola with it's owner Lenovo behind it for the reasons of privacy and security isn't beyond a good idea but pure hypocrisy and a punch in the guts for all of the supporters of GrapheneOS in my opinion. 🖕
@kranzkrone GrapheneOS is a non-profit organization and no money is changing hands with Motorola. What do you think greed has to do with it? There's huge demand for us supporting an alternative to Pixels and we're doing that by working with an OEM. If you want to continue using Pixels then you can continue doing so. Google and Samsung are the only top 10 Android OEMs by sales which aren't Chinese-owned. We can't force Samsung to want to partner with us and the same applies to Sony too.
The point isn’t whether GrapheneOS receives money from Motorola.
The point is the consistency of the security and trust model you advocate! 🙄
GrapheneOS often emphasizes minimizing trust in large corporations, opaque supply chains, and potential state influence.
Yet Motorola is owned by Lenovo, a Chinese company operating under a legal environment where state access to companies can be mandated.
If the argument is that users should minimize trust and maximize verifiable security, partnering with an OEM embedded in that jurisdiction raises legitimate questions.
This isn’t about “greed” but about coherence of principles.
If Chinese OEM ownership is usually framed as a risk in privacy discussions, it seems inconsistent to dismiss those concerns when it becomes convenient for hardware support.
Criticism here isn’t hostility—it’s asking whether the same standards are being applied consistently. 😉
@kranzkrone It's quite apparent you're using an LLM to generate concern troll replies. It's incoherent and lacks actual substance. We're not going to be interacting with a text generator someone has directed to waste our time and energy.
If you don't want us banning your instance and making a public post asking everyone else to do the same then remove both of these AI generated replies and stop bothering us.
Here's our policy on AI generated content for discussions:
It's indeed quite apparent that you acting out in the same way like you did in the past when the founder of GrapheneOS had a personal dispute with another somewhat prominent personality of the tech world.
If you don't want me to further investigate your toxic behavior of communication and try to framing me as the bad one, you should definitely thread lightly.
Threatening me with whatever action won't result in deleting my previous posts but instead will strengthen my personal investment in further interactions and maybe legal actions.
Louis Rossmann may would find this interesting to read too.
@kranzkrone You've moved on from posting low quality concern trolling which appears to be at least partially generated by an LLM to blatant libel and support for harassment. We haven't framed you for anything. Your replies to our thread make it clear what you're doing.
Louis Rossmann orchestrated harassment towards our founder by making many extraordinarily dishonest claims in a video where he engaged in blatant bullying. Rossmann is openly a Kiwi Farms user and is the one who involved them.
@indigoamber It has to start with those because they'll be the first meeting our update and security feature requirements. Lower end devices can gradually be supported as the improved updates and security features trickle down to those.
If I may ask, as various sources say otherwise. Will there be one dedicated model with GrapheneOS out of the box, and will the rest of the models be hardware-ready for installing this system? Or is hardware support and manual installation the only option?
@lispi314 There's a *big* difference between "sloppy security that eventually gets pwned" and "deliberately backdoored by a nation-state for the purpose of domestic mass surveillance" @GrapheneOS @publicvoit @a53bdb @lunareclipse
@publicvoit @JamesDBartlett3 @lispi314 @a53bdb @lunareclipse People have different opinions. We're going to work with Motorola to meet all of our security requirements and improve security beyond that. They're helping us with providing GrapheneOS support for their devices rather than us having to do the work ourselves. They may end up contributing more to GrapheneOS beyond that too. In the future, we can work with other OEMs. It's not an exclusive partnership but we have limited resources.
@libresoftwarelover The phones will be available in Brazil at least to install the OS yourself. We aren't sure about the availability of devices with it preinstalled yet since it's very early and we don't know which barriers may come up for that and whether it could launch in some regions but not others.
since the bootloader will trust the grapheneos keys I can't imagine why would safetynet and the other play protect mechanisms won't pass attestation (for all intents and purposes graphene would be indistinguishable from the stock Motorola image)
if that's the case I'll buy the device the moment it comes out...
@dzervas It's not going to change anything about the Play Integrity API which would be an entirely different thing. It should be able to have a green boot state (not necessarily immediate at launch) but that doesn't mean that Google Play is going to allow it because we won't have an allowlisted build fingerprint.
@dzervas Potentially but it's not something we want to bring up right now rather than focusing on adding GrapheneOS support, meeting our hardware requirements and getting some additional security features implemented. The main way they could eventually help is getting app developers to add support for using GrapheneOS either by removing the Play Integrity API (idealy) or adding hardware-based attestation permitting GrapheneOS as a replacement or alternative to the Play Integrity API.
@NewDay14 @Cambion @a53bdb Motorola contacted us about working together and we enthusiastically pursued it. We would do the same if Samsung wanted to work with us. Our Motorola partnership is explicitly a non-exclusive contract. There would need to be another company wanting to work with us and capable of meeting our requirements for there to be another partnership though.
@Cambion @a53bdb Samsung is the best company when it comes to independence. Samsung produces their displays, batteries, cameras, and processors in South Korea mainly. If the goal is to minimize dependency on China and the US while still obtaining high-quality products, Samsung is the clear leader in that field. However, they are likely so large that they wouldn't be interested in a partnership.
@NewDay14 @a53bdb Many off the important parts are still made in China before it's shipped to other places the phones are made. There is no going around that. Beside, Vietnam is not much different when it comes to this...
@a53bdb To be fair, all phones are made there so that risk always exists anyway.
As long as GrapheneOS doesn't slack on their requirements including (but not limited to) being able to access low level stuff it shouldn't be much worse if you flash the phone yourself. And those kind of requirements are why Pixels where the only ones supported to begin with...
Will the 'ready for' (desktop mode) function work? This is a Motorola feature that I wouldn't want to lose after flashing the ROM. I once bought a Motorola specifically for this function.
@joonq @a53bdb Sorry, but despite US offices and staff, the company is 100% Chinese.
Here is why: -> Acquisition: Bought Motorola from Google in 2014 for $2.91B. -> Headquarters: Global HQ is in Beijing. -> Shareholders: Parent company Legend Holdings is Chinese. -> Leadership: CEO Yang Yuanqing is Chinese. -> Origins: Born from a state-owned research institute.
What might be cause for concern is if the ‘blond’ driving the world crazy were to target Motorola or Lenovo, causing them to pull out of the US market, or if, like Huawei, they were to have Android stripped away from them. At that point, they might decide on one of two things: either ‘steal’ the GrapheneOS technology, or strengthen their partnership with Graphene and make Graphene the primary software for Motorola/Lenovo. It could be an interesting development, but I imagine it would be stressful for the creators of Graphene
@FynnND Both iPhones and Pixels have official battery replacement kits available along with it being relatively straightforward for the most recent generations of each. You can already use GrapheneOS on a Pixel today.
Fairphones lack crucial standard privacy and security patches/protections. They're incredibly far from meeting our requirements. Fairphones aren't a serious option if you care about privacy and lack basic safety due to lack of kernel updates, etc.
thoughts on what Motorola was doing with the affiliate link injection or their TOS saying you can’t sell a phone you bought if you unlock the boot-loader and install a different OS?
This entry was edited (Thursday, May 28, 2026, 6:36 PM)
@top It wasn't authorized by them and appears to have been a supply chain attack from a company doing contracting work for them. It was quickly disabled via some kind of update
GrapheneOS won't be using any of their apps and services. GrapheneOS also won't be using their regular vendor code and vendor SELinux policy but rather a more stripped down version close to the standard Qualcomm SDK with the extra drivers, etc. needed on top of that added. It will have less nonsense than with Pixels.
"I was born in an Iranian prison. My parents were held in their jails. My uncles lie in their mass graves. Nothing you can tell me about the crimes of the Iranian regime that I haven’t lived in blood and bone. That doesn’t mean I want my people bombed, maimed, killed, their homes in ruins. If your vision of liberation comes only through the destruction of innocent lives, then it’s not freedom you’re after.”
"PK: We have both been anti-war voices (as well as anti-sanctions) and also voices of pro-Palestinian solidarity for ages now. Can you talk about what that means in this moment?
SD: I feel that this is happening now—that the war has come to Iran—because we didn’t fight hard enough for Gaza, for Palestine. We didn’t stand tall enough. We didn’t risk enough. And I include myself in that. I didn’t do enough. I didn’t speak loud enough against the utter injustice that is waged against the Palestinian people.
That silence—ours and the world’s—has emboldened Israel to act with total impunity. It struck Lebanon, Yemen, Syria. No one said anything. It actively starves people, kills them as they wait for food, and still the international community says nothing.
Never has it been clearer to me now: we the people of the MENA region are completely on our own. And we will not survive this hell unless we unite, unless we truly see and hear one another, unless we fight for each other. Not only against war but against e
... Show more...
"PK: We have both been anti-war voices (as well as anti-sanctions) and also voices of pro-Palestinian solidarity for ages now. Can you talk about what that means in this moment?
SD: I feel that this is happening now—that the war has come to Iran—because we didn’t fight hard enough for Gaza, for Palestine. We didn’t stand tall enough. We didn’t risk enough. And I include myself in that. I didn’t do enough. I didn’t speak loud enough against the utter injustice that is waged against the Palestinian people.
That silence—ours and the world’s—has emboldened Israel to act with total impunity. It struck Lebanon, Yemen, Syria. No one said anything. It actively starves people, kills them as they wait for food, and still the international community says nothing.
Never has it been clearer to me now: we the people of the MENA region are completely on our own. And we will not survive this hell unless we unite, unless we truly see and hear one another, unless we fight for each other. Not only against war but against every last trace of fascist dictatorial rule that has brought ruin upon us and our lands. No one will bring us salvation. Only we can."
Of course, the right wing would cringe at the concept of freedom being real anyway. Their world only accepts a narrative that everyone is out for themselves, and that freedom is a lie told by those seeking only power for themselves. Which they do, every damn day.
This entry was edited (Sunday, March 1, 2026, 6:53 PM)
If there was any indication at all that Trump and Netanyahu were in this to help the Iranian people in any way, there could be a meaningful conversation about whether the means were justified or appropriate. But that is not why these men are in this fight.
He ticked off the box in front "war" to get more support at home.
At the same time he is arguing that the same war that is supposed to raise support for #Trumpregime is supposed to weaken support for the Iranian regime. While it might weaken it because of the couple of bombs it will almost certainly push all non strict opposition citizens into a more "patriotic" pro regime mood. America the Big Satan. Self introspection is not a core American value
Thank you Jean for becoming our new 5€ a month supporter tromsite.com/donate/ !!
And thank you to everyone who supports TROM financially. We do a lot of projects. We provide a Friendica instance and have over a thousand users, a Peertube instance with unlimited uploads, a Nextcloud instance providing 10GB of space for everyone and a full Office Suite...a custom Linux distribution, a documentaries-based website...
See our donation page how many things we do. And we will do more!
Instead of humans being tribal, religious lunatics, trade fanatics and war thirsty, they should by now have created a paradise on Earth. Understand their fantastic story and how we are all connected to the other creatures, to the Earth and the universe, in a purely scientific way.
To use our resources to provide for all. To send rockets to the outer space to explore instead to send them on Earth to kill more. To fight with diseases, not with each other.
To grow our minds. Be busy with being smart and curious.
Instead this species is a total shitshow. Bunch of tribes with rockets.
Today we join various other FOSS advocacy groups like @fsfe @fdroidorg @eff in addressing an open letter to Google about #keepandroidopen We need open ecosystems and the move to "sideload" software has set a bad paradigm for having control over our devices. You can read more about it here:
Today Software Freedom Conservancy joins many other organizations in signing an open letter to Google asking that Android continue to allow people to install what they want on their phones.
#Google will cut off independent developers to #Android if they do not register with Google first. This will kill independent platforms like @fdroidorg and severely impede FLOSS devs from creating apps for Android.
Do you really think a company that lick the boots of a fascist dictator will give a damn about this open letter, let alone the openness of its own products?
This entry was edited (Thursday, February 26, 2026, 9:33 AM)
@olivenolje It costs a missed opportunity to give more appropriate advice: stay away from google and use more private community forks of android that if I understand correctly will not be affected by googles papers please app ecosystem.
A strategy focusing on begging tech giants to not do the will of capital is basically lying to the public that there is a chance this can work.
In theory yes the open letter is a nice thing to have regardless of how google reacts because then we have something to point to how google is ignoring public opinion - but it needs to be presented with heavy caveats and we need to focus on getting average people out of googles grip so they don't hold this much power over us
Oh! We agree. That's what @plasmamobile is all about. However, realistically PlaMo is not ready for the general public yet, despite how hard we are working on it.
If we could get the sort of support regular Plasma has, the story would be VERY different. But PlaMo is still niche.
I hadn't heard until Plasma Mobile until now, I had only heard of the pinephone one. I am excited to hear more about the project development in the future!
@ambiguous_yelp @olivenolje @plasmamobile AFAIK the pinephone is the hardware (that can run plasma mobile or another interface) and plasma mobile is the software (that can run on the pinephone or on another device)
Very much both. Also finding more hardware support. In that respect, we must not forget about the great work the people at @postmarketOS are doing! They help us get PlaMo on to more phones, giving us more space in which to grow.
However, if we insist on using Android (forks), we're still impacted by Google's decisions. Sooner or later, these forks will be less and less of a valid option (cf. how google's changes to the Pixel 10 series were a pain for the Grapheneos team).
Even if this letter fails, we shouldn't simply stick our heads in sand and look away from these issues. As you mentioned, raising public awareness is critical. So is fighting against their control.
I expect hardware to become more locked down, this is what states and capital want. The best solution to that continues to be open source hardware and modular devices.
I believe this because open source hardware and modular devices create power at a grassroots level and invites tighter crackdowns from governments - but there is a political limit to how oppressive a regime can be and the more power we build for ourselves the more expensive it will be for them to stop us using unapproved apps which slows the whole oppressive system down
@Stem this letter is not only for Google, but also regulators etc. Especially the EU should be up in arms over a DMA violation here, but that's just my opinion man
Apple and Google, 2 choices for apps from where we sit, and both are partners in crime. END MONOPOLIES. Capitalism has become extortion when conglomerated.
Tear everything apart and build it from scratch, the entire system has been subverted to evil.
How does Plasma Mobile fit into this? I thought Plasma Mobile positions itself as an alternative to Android, so I'm wondering why we don't hear much about it.
It is 222 A.D. You are the transgender Empress Elagabalus, "call me not a man for I am a woman". Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 1776. You are "Public Universal Friend", a transmasculine nonbinary Quaker. Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 1906. You are Karl M. Baer, a trans man undergoing sex reassignment. Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 1930. You are Lili Elbe. Transitioning is new and experimental. (to be fair you did get a uterus transplant.)
It is 1966. You are in Compton's Cafeteria with a bunch of other trans people when the owners call the cops to throw you all out. You riot. Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 1969. You are Marsha "pay it no mind" Johnson. You are in a mob-run gay bar when the cops attack. You throw a brick. There is a bit of a scuffle. Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 2026. You are a transgender adult or child listening to the NYT and British Guardian claim this is the first generation anyone has tried transitioning in. Transitioning is new and experimental.
This entry was edited (Wednesday, February 25, 2026, 5:10 PM)
It is 3rd century AD, you are no defined gender and a deity who is worshipped. "Laevius says: Worshiping, then, the nurturing god Venus, whether she is male or female, just as the Moon is a nurturing goddess. In his Atthis Philochorus, too, states that she is the Moon and that men sacrifice to her in women's dress, women in men's, because she is held to be both male and female." (Macrobius (c. 400s AD), Saturnalia 3.8.2) Nothing is new. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodit…
300 BC you reject gender norms to the point of castrating yourself with no anesthesia so you can become a galli and live like a woman. Transitioning is new and experimental
i did a relatively thorough media search and purported surprise at the existence of trans people crops up every eighteen months back to the invention of newspapers
@miriamrobern You can always rely on the news to tell us that nobody wants to work anymore, kids are more disrespectful than they used to be, and trans people are new and scary.
It is 1865. You are Doctor James Barry, stealth transgender man and former Inspector General for the British army. You leave notice that upon your death your body must not be examined. This is not followed, and a media circus follows with a shocking gender reveal. Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 1876. You are author Marc/Marie de Montifaud. You "crossdress" as a man when visiting the library for research, use the names Marc and Marie interchangably, and your pronouns are known by multiple people to be she/he. Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 1880. You are known mononymously as the decadent author Rachilde. You delight in presenting publicly as sometimes a man, sometimes a woman, sometimes in between. You joyfully describe yourself as "androgynous". Transitioning is new and experimental.
It is 7th century BCE. You are mythological third-gendered entity Asu-shu-namir, created by the god Enki to rescue Innana after the goddess descended into the underworld to steal her sister Ereshkigal's power. You are impossibly beautiful, neither man or woman, and your goal is to seduce the Queen of the Netherworld and steal the waters of life to revive Inanna. Upon completing your task you are caught, and while Inanna escapes, you do not. You and others like you are cursed by Ereshkigal to suffer economic hardship and social ostracization unto eternity. Transitioning is new(?) and experimental(?).
@Pamela1960 let's not forget that these devices could be very useful, maybe even life-changing for people with impaired sight, and possibly other disabilities too?
With the success of Meta's camera glasses, there is now a risk of being recorded without consent or knowledge and ending up exposed in a crude video on TikTok or Instagram.
@naturepunk I think if they can be picked out it’s a good thing, but theoretically they can load the same type of capture and recognition capabilities- so even though it should be obvious someone is using them, they could be disguised as something else if not worn by the user? Seems fine to keep detecting them.
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
that's great and all, but as a non-gender-conforming glasses wearer with social anxiety and somewhat visible autism, do you understand how much harder you're going to make it for me to exist in a city?
no, a weak-ass disclaimer at the bottom of a paragraph of text isn't sufficient. the vast - overwhelming, i'd suggest - majority of people wearing glasses are wearing entirely un-smart glasses that are necessary for them to see shit. and at least some of us are going to be harassed because of this app. "some of us" meaning disproportionately disadvantaged folk - who are of course the least likely to be able to afford smart glasses anyway, but by far the easiest people to approach and smash the entirely necessary prosthetic glasses of.
in short - go back to the drawing board, and don't be so fucking ableist and irresponsible in your next iteration.
This entry was edited (Tuesday, February 24, 2026, 5:38 PM)
@akamran @daltux @fdroidorg I really like #fdroid, but with the handy tool #Obtainium it's very easy to have all your open source apps installed and updated directly from public sources like github.
to be any one of those things and more, depending on my prevailing energy/focus here/mood ... that's the beauty -- if frustration at the time it takes -- of being your own algo-creator.
Boosts are appreciated so the poll has more chance to find the outer reaches of our fedi universe.
![A screenshot of an Android app. Text:
▲ Nearby Glasses
Smart Glasses are probably nearby
Device: Unknown
RSSI: -42 dBm
Reason: Meta Company ID (0x058E)
Company: Meta Platforms, Inc.
This app notifies you when smart glasses are nearby. It uses company identificators in the Bluetooth data sent out by these. Therefore, there likely are false positives (e.g. from VR headsets). Hence, please proceed with caution when approaching a person nearby wearing glasses. They might just be regular glasses, despite this app's warning.
Debug Log
[19:08:40] Unknown (-50 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:40] Unknown (-50 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:41] Unknown (-34 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:42] Unknown (-34 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:42] Unknown (-34 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:42] Unknown (-57 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:43] Unknown (-40 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:43] Unknown (-42 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
...](https://social.trom.tf/photo/preview/640/42287448 "A screenshot of an Android app. Text:
▲ Nearby Glasses
Smart Glasses are probably nearby
Device: Unknown
RSSI: -42 dBm
Reason: Meta Company ID (0x058E)
Company: Meta Platforms, Inc.
This app notifies you when smart glasses are nearby. It uses company identificators in the Bluetooth data sent out by these. Therefore, there likely are false positives (e.g. from VR headsets). Hence, please proceed with caution when approaching a person nearby wearing glasses. They might just be regular glasses, despite this app's warning.
Debug Log
[19:08:40] Unknown (-50 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:40] Unknown (-50 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:41] Unknown (-34 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:42] Unknown (-34 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:42] Unknown (-34 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:42] Unknown (-57 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:43] Unknown (-40 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
[19:08:43] Unknown (-42 dBm) Meta Company ID (0x058E)
...")
Kallisti
in reply to Privacy International • • •Can't think of a government that wouldn't think that private conversations being private is controversial.
From the article itself:
"But the company has now told the BBC it believes the technology prevents police and safety teams from being able to read direct messages if they needed to."
This is the truth. But it is also part of the point of E2EE. And why governments hate it.
RevK
in reply to Privacy International • • •Impact normal people wanting normal privacy. Criminals can always do this. Laws only hit normal people.
Simon Hewison
in reply to Privacy International • • •indyradio
in reply to Privacy International • • •UltrasonicMadness (he/him)
in reply to Privacy International • • •