Tio

tio@social.trom.tf

A bunch of atoms that are curious about the world, but furious about the society. We should help all humans to have a decent life without any strings attached, so that we can understand us, the atoms, and the rest of the universe. And create a smarter and saner society.

Since 2005 I make documentaries, write books, and enable many trade-free platforms for everyone.

Network posts

Earth

@tio:matrix.org

https://www.tiotrom.com/

Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

“Keeping Unwanted Messages off the Fediverse” – Serge Wroclawski

Good talk. I totally agree that we can't rely on moderators on the fediverse, and for that matter anywhere else.

The best way to deal with moderation on the fediverse is this:

Make sure you allow admins to curate their own instance by showcasing/promoting what they think is best. I call this positive moderation. Not banning, but promoting.
Make sure users have easy and powerful tools at their disposal to ban/block anyone and curate their online presence.
Transparency at the instance level. Inform users when your instance has blocked any other or any user, and for what reason. Inform users when they are banned from instances and so forth. As transparent as possible.

Video URL here videos.trom.tf/w/8TLrJAfKcViUY…

https://videos.trom.tf/w/8tlrjafkcviuygvypmakt4

Spam, scams and harassment pose a threat to all social networks, including the Fediverse. In this talk, we discuss a multilayered approach to mitigating these threats. We explore spam mitigation techniques of the past as well as new techniques...

^{videos.trom.tf}

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Tio

in reply to Emacsen 3 years ago

Awesome! If you can share any relevant links here would be nice. If you have more presentations/papers/articles.

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Emacsen

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/rwot…

rwot9-prague/ap-unwanted-messages.md at master · WebOfTrustInfo/rwot9-prague

RWOT9 in Prague, The Czech Republic (September 2019) - rwot9-prague/ap-unwanted-messages.md at master · WebOfTrustInfo/rwot9-prague

^GitHub

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

Reading this post.

I've seen this argument from the Gnome folks: "If distros ship with custom themes, and they don't work properly, then users contact us at Gnome and bother us for things we have nothing to do with." That's their main motive. So stupid. I mean most GTK apps do not integrate with their Libadwaita anyway, so even vanilla Gnome will result in a mess of inconsistency. Only a few GTK apps use that library.

Second...I mean...somehow they think it is bad to have an inconsistent desktop (and this is untrue anyway) but only from Gnome's perspective. How about people complaining to XFCE, KDE, Budgie, Mate and the rest of DEs that some apps do not respect the system's theme because they use libadwaita, and have removed functionalities such as global menus, top bars, and more....

In Gnome's world, it is NOT ok to have a tiny minuscule of specifically GTK/Gnome apps look a little bit off when using a custom theme

Libadwaita still sucks and they have no reason to implement it

Reading this article about libadwaita and how pity the arguments are in favor of using it. I was expecting more.

^{TROMjaro Forum}

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

I MAY have finished the second TROM II part...1h 17 minutes. I will have to revisit it tomorrow to see about the ending, I may do a few things, but basically is kinda done...wow. Ok. That's great! Can't wait to move on to the next parts :D - #tromlive

#tromlive

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

A new TROMjaro ISO is out forum.tromjaro.com/t/tromjaro-…

A better way of handling the icons for dark/light themes, an awesome system cleaner integrated into TROMjaro, and a new paywall remover for online articles. Enjoy! #tromlive

#tromlive

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Changed that thx.

Renaming application could be done from the GUI, right? 🤔

Yes but to add to the Settings Manager you have to add a line or two in the .desktop file. It is easier the way I showcased.

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

good 👍

Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

We may tweak our Friendica social.trom.tf these days to improve some stuff. Be aware of that. In case is not working properly. #tromlive

#tromlive

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I'm curious what changes you're making? 🙂

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

We have 150 thousand processes that are unfinished...this is extreme it seems...and we dont know why...the server works good, all fine, but we tried optimizing the database and more. @Hank G ☑️ helps a lot.

@Hank G ☑️

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

Huh, you think this might be related to that weird bug we saw where random user's posts are appearing on our timeline? How long has this been a problem, have there always been lots of unfinished processes like this?
@hankg

@Hank G ☑️

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Could be actually...it is recent from the latest friendica update I guess....we try to figure it out...

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

github.com/friendica/friendica…
This is the issue we've been talking about. But I feel like this problem has been going on for a lot longer, and users from other instances have also reported stuff like this. So maybe they're not related..... 🤔
@hankg

Posts of people I don't follow appear on my home timeline · Issue #11762 · friendica/friendica

Look at this screenshot: Now I don't follow Anubis or Katherine, and I've never followed them actually, then why are their posts showing up on my home timeline?! And as you can see from my ...

^GitHub

@Hank G ☑️

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

could be....servers and software...are their own entities i swear...if they could talk so we can ask them wtf is wrong with them :D

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Informa Pirata

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

@Tio Did you take a look here?

friends.polli.social/display/0…

@Tio

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Tio

in reply to Informa Pirata 3 years ago

That post is private or doesnt exist:

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

Oh look, an article about how humans smuggle rare birds and make tens of millions of euros a year - occrp.org/en/investigations/as…

Guess why they are doing that?

Their genes? No.
Their ego? What is that!?
Lack of laws? No.
Laws not tough enough? No.

They are doing it because we live in a trade-based society and everyone is forced, compelled, then lured into playing it. People need it, people learn to love it. Accumulate shit, trade for survival, all that. This will never stop as long as the core of our society is to TRADE TRADE TRADE, while no one has access to even their basic needs unless they trade.

Fucked up society.

Wanna change it? Provide a basic life for humans. Give them access to their needs as trade-free, so that you can start to decouple them from these bad incentives. Then promote and encourage and support volunteer projects, so that we end up creating stuff, without having to trade it.

This way you create much saner and more relaxed humans.

Else nothing will change. Laws? What a joke! #tromlive

‘Astronomical Money’: How Smugglers Made Tens of Millions Moving Rare Birds Around the World - OCCRP

An organized crime group spent years smuggling rare exotic birds from South America and Asia to collectors across Europe. Now, one of their former couriers is speaking out.

^OCCRP

#tromlive

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

TROM

2022-08-01 15:36:11

Thank you for supporting TROM month after month. Even if it is a lot less than we may need, we try to support the project via other means too. We currently have enough funds to work on TROM for a few more months, thanks to your donations. https://www.tromsite.com/donate/ #tromlive

#tromlive

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

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This is one of the coolest apps I've seen recently. You can create a second screen in seconds out of any device. Highly recommended!

trom

2022-08-01 09:09:26

The trade-free app of the day:
Deskreen
tromjaro.com/deskreen/
Deskreen turns any device with a web browser into a secondary screen for your computer.

Deskreen
Deskreen turns any device with a web browser into a secondary screen for your computer. … Continue readingDeskreen
^TROM-Jaro

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Benjamin Hollon 🇺🇸🇲🇾🇮🇳🇦🇫

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I saw one yesterday that does audio sharing so you can use a smartphone or similar as a speaker over WiFi. Pretty cool!

in reply to Benjamin Hollon 🇺🇸🇲🇾🇮🇳🇦🇫

Tio

in reply to Benjamin Hollon 🇺🇸🇲🇾🇮🇳🇦🇫 3 years ago

Yup it is on my test-list

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

If you come a day later to work, your "boss" will be really angry and may fire you. If your "boss" pays you a day later, is all fine. #TradeRuinsEverything #tromlive

#tromlive #TradeRuinsEverything

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Liwott

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

This one is not a direct consequence of trading itself, the problem here is that contracts do mention the days you have to work, but not the day you will get paid.

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Tio

in reply to Liwott 3 years ago

I wish you were right. But you are not. There are countless of examples that I personally know, where it states in the contract when you have to be paid, and they were not. So often it is tiring. And it is a consequence of trade since it makes humans prioritize their own selves, so those "bosses" do not care much about their "slaves".

Also, in the contract it is mentioned you need to work only 8h a day, but many times you work more than that.

All of these agreements, written or verbal, will never be respected simply because the trade relationship between the "boss" and the "worker" is imbalanced towards the "boss" who has a lot more power.

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Wu Wei

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

And stuff like this is why I'm so thankful for working in a team and having a union.
My team covers in case of emergency leave and my union makes sure they paycheck isn't late

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Tio

in reply to Wu Wei 3 years ago

That's good. I wonder tho how wide-spread and overall efficient these "unions" are. On top of that, it is quite concerning that we need them in the first place, it says a lot about the abuse of power in a trade society.

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

Anotehr productive TROM II night. So I wanted for a while to make a sort of compilation of automation - machines that can replace most jobs. And now I finally did it and integrated it into TROM II. I had to cut down some 20h of robots/automation in like 1 minute. Am happy with it. I also kinda know where to insert the leftover bits into the second part. That means I should be done with the second part soon. Can't wait to be done with that :D.

These days I plan to release a new TROMjaro ISO and try to get in sync with the Manjaro updates, so that our ISOs are more up to date. Not planning any huge changes. #tromlive

#tromlive

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

I have made an article kinda debunking the myth that we need libadwaita, a reaction to this theevilskeleton.gitlab.io/2022… article. Read the post on the TROMjaro forum forum.tromjaro.com/t/libadwait…

And I show you why TROMjaro is better than PoP OS or Ubuntu.

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

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Yeah watch this documentary....what we are talking about for years now, how trade fucks things up. It is not just about money, money is just a form of trade. Likes, shares, comments, can be traded for products. #TradeRuinsEverything

Kids nowadays are growing up in an even more fucked up society. We are FoCkEd. #tromlive

trom

2022-07-29 14:43:53

Newly added documentary on VideoNeat.com:
Fake Famous
Fake Famous is a 2021 documentary film directed by Nick Bilton. It is a social experiment involving three non-famous people who attempt to become social media influencers by “faking” fame.
Watch it here:
videoneat.com/documentaries/22…

Fake Famous
Fake Famous is a 2021 documentary film directed by Nick Bilton. It is a social experiment involving three non-famous people who attempt to become social media influencers by "faking" fame.
^VideoNeat

#tromlive #TradeRuinsEverything

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

The friendica friendly developers already implemented two new and useful features: the ability to export/import blacklisted urls from one instance to another, and notifications to all users of an instance when any url is added/removed from the blocklist, so that all users see these decisions.

Friendica is leading the way on the fediverse! Big thanks to @Hypolite Petovan @Tobias @Michael Vogel and the rest of the developers at Friendica.

It is really on my list of things to do in teh future, to get more closely involved with them and perhaps help with the main website, with design stuff, themes, etc.. I think it would be a pleasure to do these. :) - First the documentary, then these new things!

@Michael 🇺🇦 @Hypolite Petovan @Tobias

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Hypolite Petovan

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

For anyone eager to use these features, they only are available on the develop branch until they are released as part of the 2022.09 stable version planned for September.

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

Lots of Message queues

!Friendica Admins Around 2180 - 43849 for a week or more. Is that very bad? These are my "workers" settings:

Am not sure if I can improve anything and what in this regards, or if I should or not.

!Friendica Admins

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Luca Nucifora

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

@Tio oh, sorry.. I removed it: I wrote some days ago about a similar problem in 'Friendica Admins' group..
if you can, I also suggest you to move from cron to a daemon for the worker queue.. so remember to stop the worker before the 'optimization' procedure

@Tio

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

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Tio

in reply to Luca Nucifora 3 years ago

Ok. I will try some stuff @Hank G ☑️ said he may be able to help me out these days.

@Hank G ☑️

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

Kdenlive failed on me :( - cannot open my last project for the TROM II second part....neither the appimage or repo. What is true is that I have added a fuck ton of videos, thousands in total....luckily an older appimage works so I can continue the work. I reported it and usually the kdenlive devs are quick to answer, let's see...

I am testing Kddenlive to the max, with a 6h documentary, 4 parts, tens of thousands of clips, over 1TB project....lots of effects, custom stuff, and so on...

So far, generally, all good. #tromlive

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

We often ask people to use FOSS programs for everything, often because of ideological reasons like freedom. But when you're working on a big project like TROM II then FOSS programs can give you some headaches like this, so I think FOSS still has a long way to go, to become practical and reliable for big projects.

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

I don't think that's the case tho...I have used several video editors in the past that were big names and proprietary, on windows, they too crashed and had lots of issues...all software is buggy, but when is FOSS people tend to be more critical of it I realized. I know people who tried TROMjaro and then they saw a little bug and were like "oh is because is open source and not good quality...." and the same people experience even worse bugs with macos yet they think they themselves did something wrong. It is like when google services are slow or not work properly and you blame your internet connection, yet when one of our websites is slow you blame it and not your internet, simply because you expect these big names (software wise) to always work.

I think it is a bias. When I made the first TROM with Sony Vegas I had it crash multiple times, more often than perhaps Kdenlive, and at one point I could not open my old projects with it anymore....so...

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing it. Yeah I think this happens sometimes, people blame FOSS projects for the same bugs that they wouldn't blame proprietary services for..... 🤔

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inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Exactly this. Open source projects are usually not capable of allowing me to do major, serious work, which is what I keep telling people and get attacked for it.

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Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Like what? I am creating a huge documentary as I said above and Kdenlive does great.....yes it crashes rarely and such, but so did other proprietary software I used in the past to create videos...

I use my TROMjaro Linux 24/7. I never shut down my laptop. I wrote books that are thousands of pages long with Libre Office and edited them (designed) with Libre Office Draw. Again thousands of pages...I edited tens of thousands of images with Krita/GIMP, I do backups, maintain 30-40 websites and I need tools for that....I mange projects....what else!?

So what are you unable to do with Open Source?

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I actually think FOSS projects these days are capable of doing most work, almost all of the software I use now are FOSS for example. But there can be cases where proprietary software works better than its FOSS alternative, so some people might still need to use these. So @tio and me may not need any proprietary software for the things we do, but @inference might need some for his work.

@Tio @inference

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Rokosun

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

For example, I know some people have to use windows for playing certain games or something. So the software you use really just depends on what you wanna do with, in some cases FOSS programs work better, in some others the proprietary one works better. I do agree that FOSS projects are better because of ideological reasons like freedom, openness, etc. but when you compare the quality of the software then proprietary and FOSS are kinda the same, it depends on the app in question.

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

ah yeah the eternal gaming hehe. ok i do not know anything about that since i dont "game". but i'd like to hear about other examples. like a real one is the fact that nvidia is a cunt and because of its poor linux support my video editing is suffering greatly. much much slower than on a windows computer with the same video editor. that's a real downside. but is because of nvdia.

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I think @inference might have some examples where proprietary software is more secure than its FOSS alternative, and like I said he's a cybersecurity researcher so he should know about this stuff. From our previous conversations about this, I understood that security doesn't depend on whether the app is FOSS or not, sometimes proprietary software will be more secure than its FOSS alternative, sometimes the opposite is also true.

@inference

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Isn't it more secure if more eyes can look at the code and report flaws in the code?

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

No. Source code isn't how the program actually runs. Compilers change compiled code, and there are many other variables to consider. Source availability is mostly irrelevant. It's a fallacy and misinfo of the FOSS cult they like to spread.

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Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

It's a fallacy and misinfo of the FOSS cult they like to spread.

You are saying this "cult" is mean and all that, but you seem very mean to me. That was a genuine question you can simply answer nicely.

Compilers compile that code, right? And if the code is open source, then should add an advantage. At least is not worse than proprietary, right?

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

> you seem very mean to me.

I get called this a lot just for telling it how it is. I get literally attacked and threatened because I don't just blindly agree with FOSS cultists.

> Compilers compile that code, right? And if the code is open source, then should add an advantage. At least is not worse than proprietary, right?

Not exactly. Security doesn't just mean backdoored. That's not what security is; security is the collective state of whether unauthorised actors can get in. Compilers can add unintentional backdoors and other security issues. There are many examples of this online. Just because you write code a specific way doesn't mean it will execute that way.

in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

I get called this a lot just for telling it how it is.

Being right doesn't have to also mean being a jerk with people. What is your beef again with FOSS? FOSS provides full transparency, anyone can fork these pieces of software, creates a better community, more variety. If you are saying that when the open source code gets compiled "bad things" can happen, then ok. I cannot say anything because I do not know if you are right or not. But it won't invalidate the security that comes from the code being open for all to see.

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I never said FOSS doesn't provide freedom or transparency; not a single time; in fact, I always say the opposite. The fact (not opinion) remains that open source does not mean secure or private, and closed source does not mean insecure or not private.

Do you audit every line of code of every package and app on every system you use, without help, and with zero trust? No, you don't, because that's not humanly possible; even the OS would take your entire lifetime to audit, and that's before it updates next week and you have to start over.

in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

So are you saying the code being open, does not provide any benefit in terms of security over the code being closed sourced?

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in reply to Tio

inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

For the most part, yes. Again, compilers can change how the code ends up after changing it during compilation and linking, and source code almost never runs as written when compiled to a binary. Closed source can also be packet sniffed and reverse engineered.

I recommend you read this great article by Seirdy to understand what I'm saying:
seirdy.one/posts/2022/02/02/fl…

The right thing for the wrong reasons: FLOSS doesn't imply security

While source code is critical for user autonomy, it isn't required to evaluate software security or understand run-time behavior.

^{Seirdy's Home}

in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Ok. If the code being open is also a small plus in terms of security because of transparency, I'll take that. It is important to know more details about this, I agree. And we should all keep calm and listen.¡ to each other.

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I'm not saying that auditing the code isn't important, it just doesn't mean what you're seeing is how it runs as a binary, and it also doesn't mean it can't be tampered with in other ways.

Simply, don't rely exclusively on software being open source to be secure or not; there are many variables to consider.

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

> I get called this a lot just for telling it how it is. I get literally attacked and threatened because I don't just blindly agree with FOSS cultists.

I think you've had some bad experience with some tech folks, but you shouldn't assume everyone who uses FOSS software is like that, its a diverse group of people with different perspectives and stuff like that. And me and @tio are not in any cult, LMAO 🤣

@Tio

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inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

> you shouldn't assume everyone who uses FOSS software is like that

I don't. Not everyone is part of the FOSS cult. The cultists are the ones who are closed minded and are hellbent on making sure their ideology is the only one which exists. I'm an open source advocate, but you'll never hear me say it's the only way and always the best tool for the job; it's not.

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Because you mention compilers changing the code I want to ask you about this thing called Reproducible builds. What do you think of that? Wouldn't it solve this problem that you're addressing here?

Relevant links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproduc…

reproducible-builds.org/

@tio

Reproducible Builds

Reproducible builds are a set of software development practices that create an independently-verifiable path from source to binary code.

^{reproducible-builds.org}

@Tio

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inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Yes, this is a solution to the compiler issue. It needs to become more widespread, however, and not everyone will compile with the defaults, even with it. I use ultra-hardened max security flags with my compiler (and my compiler toolchain is even hardened), so I will get different results even if I use a reproducible build to test before using my own compiler.

in reply to inference

inference

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Just because a reproducible build shows that the code is the same as the official binary, it doesn't mean my custom build won't have security issues because of my flags.

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

OK I understand. But I think the main goal here is to ensure trust that the source code they released is the actuall source code of the official binary. And so I think they're succeeding in that regards.

I know briarproject.org uses reproducible builds, that's how I found out about it actually. I feel like Briar is one of those few FOSS projects that gives utmost importance to security and stuff like that, at least that's the impression I get. everythcial.trom.tf

Secure messaging, anywhere - Briar

Secure messaging, anywhere

^{briarproject.org}

in reply to Tio

Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

It depends on how many people are looking at the code though, just because its opened up doesn't automatically make ut secure. And I think most people looking through the code will be looking for implementing some features and stuff, its very rare to see someone looking through the code to find security vulnerabilities. So..... Security audits are important

@inference

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inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Exactly how it is.

in reply to Rokosun

inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

I advise you to read this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underhan…

As you can see, it is very possible to hide malicious code in open source code which looks perfectly fine, without anyone noticing. There are even contests for it.

programming contest for malicious code that looks like an honest mistake

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Wow, that's really interesting...... 🤔
@tio

@Tio

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in reply to Rokosun

Rokosun

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

So I guess if someone's really motivated then he can break all kinds of security measures in place, even if the code is public.

In the case of FOSS, I don't think this is that common though, if someone wants to make profit then proprietary software is the easier route. I guess maybe accidental security holes would be much more common in FOSS than malicious ones..... 🤔

@tio

@Tio

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in reply to Rokosun

Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Yes I've been saying many times that we can't fix bad behaviors with laws and rules and practices. Everything can be hacked and compromised if people are motivated enough. FOSS is more than just "is it more secure than proprietary or not". It is a way of thinking about making things open and accessible for all.

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I just want to point out that security is still an important topic to discuss about, since a lot of software these days have unintentional security holes and they get exploited. But you're right that we can never achieve 100% security, with enough motivation and power anything can be hacked.

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inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

As someone who is, you could say, both addicted and obsessed, with security, and does almost nothing else, this is entirely true. There will even be people out there who can defeat my security.

There is high security, but there is never full security; it does not exist.

There is always a hole, usually multiple. There are always flaws. There is always a way in.

Question is, can you keep them out?

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Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

I think that it is important indeed to make sure the software is secure, however if we as a society want to make real progress in this regards, we have to look at what motivates others to "breach" this security. For example I originally come from a very well known town where most people do all sort of scams and hacks. And they do them because they are quite poor, and also influenced by the dumb movies to want new cars and shit like that.

My point is that a saner society is safer. If we were to take care of humans and treat them well, then you will remove their incentive to "hack". Another example is that many "hackers" find exploits and sell them to the highest bidder.

So ultimately it is the society that breeds these behaviors. We shall not forget that.

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in reply to Tio

inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

This is what threat modelling is for.

- What are you trying to protect?
- Who are you trying to protect it from?
- Why are they trying to access it?
- What are the consequences if I fail?
- What are my budget and other resources?

Just applying mindless blanket security will never work, because you can never secure everything; the only way to keep people out and focus on the actual holes are to know who is trying to get in, and how you can keep those specific people out. If you're not worried about your neighbour hacking you, and they have no reason to, you don't need to put effort into keeping them out, you need to put effort into the people who *are* trying to get in.

in reply to Rokosun

inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

My point with that article was to say it is possible (even if difficult and rare) to add malicious code without anyone realising it. You can obscure open source code.

So, if you're relying solely on code being open, you're doing it wrong.

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

For me personally, if a program is FOSS then it increases my trust in the developer, but I know that there is still an element of trust there. The way I think of it is that, if someone wants to do malicious things then open sourcing their code is not a smart thing to do, there are many easier way to write malware. So its unlikely to find FOSS devs who're malicious like that, but the security of their software still depends on their skill level and knowledge about security.
@tio

@Tio

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in reply to Rokosun

inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

I disagree with that. I actually say to people that the best way to backdoor someone is to use open source code and rely on the fact that 99% of people blindly use it. I bet there are devs out there would would add backdoors to their coded if paid enough money, and they could very well go unnoticed.

in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

We talk about in-theory a lot, but do you have some concrete examples of malicious code being hidden, on purpose, in open source code? Is this a problem in reality or in theory? I used computers for 20+ years now. Windows + Different Linux distros, kinda half half of the time. I never got hacked, I do not know anyone who got hacked. Except a few times on Windows where some friends got some viruses from the online world.

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I don't think it matters whether it's happened or not; the fact is, it can. Relying on "it's never happened before" is exactly the same as saying "I've never been in a car crash before so I don't need to wear a seatbelt". If it happens, you'll wish you did wear the seatbelt.

And yes, there are examples of it. Too many for me to post here. Use your search engine of choice and you'll find many.

in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Not a good analogy. I am wearing a seatbelt - I use open source software from official repos and from trusted sources. I was thinking you may give me some examples at least. I do not know any. And I am sure there are, don't get me wrong.

EDIT: to add to that, very likely most people (normal regular users) who are using open source software use it the same way. Only tech savvy people compile them and such, and they may be better equipped to smell the danger while doing that.

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

Define "trusted". What if I personally trust some proprietary software more than open source alternatives? In many cases, I do.

Trust is subjective, so my analogy holds up very well. The most important thing about security is reducing trust and replacing it with provability. You "trusting" a repo or a dev means literally nothing when anyone can break that trust, and be successful because you were wide open trusting them.

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Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

If they break the trust, because the code is open source and many developers and users will keep an eye on changes, then they will be caught doing that. I've seen this several times via AUR, where users/devs spotted bad/buggy/malicious changes to the code when the maintainer pushed them.

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in reply to Tio

Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

Now imagine if those code were proprietary, then would these bad/buggy/malicious code be discovered so easily? I understand that in order for opensource code to be secure you need many people watching the code, but in proprietary software you literally can't look at the code even if you want to. So only the ones writing the software knows the code, and now you're putting your trust in that few insiders to write good code. So trust is necessary in proprietary code too, maybe more.

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

So trust is necessary in proprietary code too, maybe more.

That's a great way to summarize this I think :D

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

If you're blindly trusting an open source repo without auditing it yourself, there is zero difference between that and using proprietary, because you didn't bother to audit the code, anyway.

And, personally, I prefer to trust someone who knows what they're doing, such as Google or Microsoft, with my work files, than someone who just wrote their first block of code and turned it into software from their basement.

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Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Auditing the code yourself is always best, but when it comes to proprietary software no one can audit it, not you or anyone except the one who wrote it.

> I prefer to trust someone who knows what they're doing, such as Google or Microsoft, with my work files, than someone who just wrote their first block of code

This is of course your choice, and I get it. However I don't think all FOSS devs are noobs though, some might even work for google/microsoft, lol
@tio

@Tio

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in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

If you're blindly trusting an open source repo without auditing it yourself, there is zero difference between that and using proprietary, because you didn't bother to audit the code, anyway.

I disagree. The fact that the code is open source it means others may have looked at it. So my trust is in the one who published the code + the ones who may have looked/tested it. With proprietary my trust is ONLY in the one who made the code. So Open Source is at least a bit better in that regards. It may be a lot more, idk.

And, personally, I prefer to trust someone who knows what they're doing, such as Google or Microsoft

Most of the times is not about trusting their expertise, but their intention too. I trusted Google Drive with 2TB of files until it decided to delete my entire account, gmail included, and I got no answer as to why. And they charged me for 3 months before restoring my account. I trusted Facebook to not sell my data, and they did. I trusted lots of other big companies with proprietary software, and I got screwed. So...

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

You're trusting more than 1 party when you blindly trust an open source project and people to audit it (which may not even have happened so you're talking ghost people who don't even exist). That's completely illogical and dangerous to me; why would you just *hope* someone has audited the code? Do you even know who the people are *if* they have audited it? You're blindly trusting them, too. What if they're all in cahoots?

As for what you said about Google or Microsoft deleting/suspending your account, that's not related to source availability; even open source Codeberg or Proton Drive could do that. You're mixing these things up.

in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Software A is FOSS, software B is proprietary. It is a simple music player. Which one can I trust more?

If I had the time/skills I could check the Software A in more detail, but never Software B. Software A, if popular, is very likely to have been checked by others for malicious code. Again, never for software B, unless you trust the company behind it blindly.

Second, from my experience, people doing FOSS have a lot less incentive to do anything "bad" to your system, simply because they put that software for free mostly. They do not want anything from you.

Proprietary? Has a lot of incentive to milk me for my data, currency, attention (ads), make me buy premium features and such. Scripts will be added for tracking, stats, and more. Why would the developer of Software B make it proprietary if he/she would simply want to create a music player?

So yah, I trust FOSS a lot more because of these reasons. I should ask myself the opposite: why would I trust a proprietary music player (or any software) more than a FOSS one? I don't see a reason why.

A

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I don't need to convince you that proprietary software is more secure than open source, because it's untrue. Likewise for the opposite.

Source availability should not be the only factor in determining security or privacy. I made this very clear in previous posts.

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Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Source availability should not be the only factor in determining security or privacy.

An no one disagreed or said otherwise. I never said being open source should be the only factor, but it sure is a plus. And a huge one from my knowledge.

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inference

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

Open source allows transparency (but not easy viewing of whether the code is malicious or not, since I showed that it is possible to hide malicious code in open source code), auditing, and freedom to modify the code. It also has the nice advantage of being able to study and learn from it.

Despite proprietary code not having these possibilities, it *is* possible to reverse engineer the binaries back into source code, even if it is difficult to do so, and it is very possible and even preferable to perform red team/security analysis on closed source binaries because both open source code and proprietary code run as closed source binaries once on the system and that's the state the software is actually used in.

Other than source availability, questions to ask are:
- Does the software have security mechanisms? Which ones does it have? How are they implemented?
- Does the software have control-flow integrity? If so, forward-edge or backward-edge? Does it take advantage of CPU and other hardware security such as Intel CET or AMD Shadow Stack?
- What ciphers, hashes,

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Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

> Source availability should not be the only factor in determining security or privacy.

Yes, I actually agree with this. Just because a piece of software is open source doesn't automatically make it secure. This is not a new idea to me, see this - fosstodon.org/@futureisfoss/10…

> Being open source doesn't make an app magically secure. Open source is about transparency and trust, the security of the app depends on how many people are looking for vulnerabilities in the source code.
@tio

Rokosun (@futureisfoss@fosstodon.org)

@XxAlexXx Being open source doesn't make an app magically secure. Open source is about transparency and trust, the security of the app depends on how many people are looking for vulnerabilities in the source code.

^Fosstodon

@Tio

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

> As for what you said about Google or Microsoft deleting/suspending your account, that's not related to source availability; even open source Codeberg or Proton Drive could do that. You're mixing these things up.

I think here @tio meant that commercial companies often decide quick to paywall features and stuff like that, so you'll lose your account or some features you were using. This is not directly related to FOSS, but most of them are not commercialized, so less chance of this.

@Tio

in reply to Rokosun

Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

No no is directly related to security because they say one thing and do another. Same way they say they do not collect your data and such, and they do, they can say "our software is secure", while it is not. It is entirely related to the trust aspect.

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Yes there is malware out there, but the question is whether they're more common in FOSS programs compared to Proprietary ones. I've heard of a few cases where there have been found malicious code in FOSS, but I've heard of far more such shady things happening in proprietary software. I don't know about you, but if I were a hacker and I wanted to write malicious code then I wouldn't make it open source, lol 😂
@tio

@Tio

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in reply to inference

Liwott

in reply to inference 3 years ago

Relying on "it's never happened before" is exactly the same as saying "I've never been in a car crash before so I don't need to wear a seatbelt".

It's actually the same as saying "There never was any car crash", which is a much stronger statement. "It doesn't happen" is different from "it happens only to others"

in reply to inference

Rokosun

in reply to inference 3 years ago

I know the tech community can be real toxic sometimes, but no one should be telling you what you do on your computer. And you are cyber security researcher, so you know what you're dealing with, and for me that's an important thing when it comes to privacy/security, to be aware of the risks and such.

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in reply to Rokosun

Rokosun

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

FOSS projects have its benefits, but its depends on the person if they find it useful or not. For example, I consider it a good thing that I can directly report bugs and send pull requests to FOSS projects, but for someone who don't know how to open git issues this won't be a benefit at all. So ya know, it depends.... 🤷

in reply to Rokosun

Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

Yah but look I used Windows in the past for a long time...I used to fix windows computers...I know from experience that windows too is buggy. A lot. So I think it is a bias towards open source and I was guilty of it too in the beginning. But using windows heavily for a decade, then Linux for like 6-7 years, from my experience in terms of stability Linux is more stable and all of the apps I am using. Up to date, faster, does not get slower with time.

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

My experience with linux has been similar, there are lots of other positive aspects about it too, like it runs much faster on my computer, windows is slow to the point of being unusable. But I don't think @inference was referring to windows BTW, he uses linux from what I know.

@inference

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in reply to Rokosun

Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

I had to restart my Windows computer every few days because it was getting so slow...I never do that with Linux. That's one good example.

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inference

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

> I know the tech community can be real toxic sometimes, but no one should be telling you what you do on your computer.

This is true for everything. The issue is, it's mostly the open source advocates who behave this way, putting you down and making you feel like you're doing everything wrong, just because of a choice you made. It's complete bullshit. You want to use open source Signal? Go ahead. You want to use closed source WhatsApp? Go ahead. I don't care, and I never will; it's your decision to make. You want me to tell you what to eat and drink, too?

The toxicity of the FOSS community (what I term the "FOSS cult") is what makes me skeptical of a lot of FOSS projects; they don't correctly implement security or privacy, and the code being open in that case is literally useless; it means nothing.

in reply to inference

Tio

in reply to inference 3 years ago

they don't correctly implement security or privacy, and the code being open in that case is literally useless; it means nothing.

You sound defensive to me. :) - so be aware of this too. Here's the thing, probably many people who discover FOSS are too excited about it and really want to tell the others about it. This excitement can turn into them being "too much" and becoming annoying.

For example I suffer from over-excitement too when it comes to this, simply because I realize how important FOSS is form so many perspectives. Combine that with the fact that most people have no clue about it, and makes me more vocal. Like people use Zoom and their data is collected, their video chat is limited, and so on, but there is Jitsi Meet that is purely for that purpose: video conference. Works amazingly great and no limitations. So naturally I want to tell people about it :D.

But of course, use whatever you want. However there are objective arguments of why FOSS is a better approach than proprietary software. Proprietary means: limits the access for po

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

in reply to inference

Adamas Nemesis

in reply to inference 3 years ago

If only that situation could or would change...

in reply to Adamas Nemesis

inference

in reply to Adamas Nemesis 3 years ago

We'd all like it to, including me, but, until it does, I'm not exclusively using open source just to please Stallman.

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in reply to Rokosun

Adamas Nemesis

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

So true.

Unknown parent

Rokosun

Unknown parent 3 years ago

Did you know that tailsOS was my first linux distro? Can you believe that? LMAO 🤣

I couldn't install it on hardware ofcourse, but it gave me enough experience with the linux ISO thing - how to make a bootable USB, boot into it, etc. So it was actually a very good first step for me, I don't know if I would have had a positive experience if I started with a full-on distro like ubuntu/manjaro because I had lots of issues getting it installed on my system, UEFI issues

Unknown parent

Rokosun

Unknown parent 3 years ago

I stayed with Manjaro for the most part and that's where I became familiar with the linux terminal and all that. I started using larbs.xyz on Manjaro, slowly becoming familiar with it, it was a good setup because I had a GUI in case if I need to do something and don't know how to do it in Larbs. But once I became comfortable I went straight to artixlinux.org instead of Arch, and I *think* the artix documentation was better and easier too lol 😂

Artix Linux - Home

Artix Linux, a systemd-free linux distribution.

^{artixlinux.org}

Unknown parent

Rokosun

Unknown parent 3 years ago

Larbs is good stuff, I've been using it for a long time now, a lot longer than I've used any other system. But if wanna use it then you should be somewhat familiar with the linux terminal and everything. And everything on Larbs is based on vim key bindings, so if you're a vim user then you'll love it. If you don't know vim then I recommend learning it, not for Larbs but its just good to know vim in general.
@tio @inference

@Tio @inference

Unknown parent

Tio

Unknown parent 3 years ago

Yes thats what am also using. 22.04 failed to open my project but 21.12.3 worked.

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

Great amount of work today with TROM II. I think I know how to and where to add all of the leftovers for this parts. Already added lots of it. But it will take a week or so to finish this I guess. I have asked for some help on our TROM Discussions chat with some things. Join here matrix.to/#/#chat:matrix.trom.… . #tromlive

#tromlive

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

An adblock-like solution for the fediverse. Thoughts?

Hey people on the fediverse, I have a serious question/proposal. I talked about this in the past, but I want to create a thread about it and I will tag a few people because it is an important discussion:

The problem: like on any such platforms, you'll come across the crazies (the nazis, the bots, the spammers, and so on).

The other problem: what you find as crazy and despicable, I may not. So having admins decide for everyone is not a good approach. Plus, admins cannot do a good job at blocking everything and everyone for you.

The solution: how about we collectively and open sourcely create well defined lists like: bots, spammers, nazis, porn, etc.. And let the debate happen in 1 single place (say a git repo) where you are obliged to transparently submit proposals and have them accepted to the list. We end up with (hopefully) well defined lists (categories) of "bad actors", in a transparent manner. Now services like Friendica, Mastodon, and the like should implement an easy way for any user/admin to toggle on or off these lists. You wanna see

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

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utzer [Friendica]

in reply to Tio 3 years ago from Fediverse

@Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

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Abid Nevesinjac

in reply to utzer [Friendica] 3 years ago

"I wand this account owner to be able to respond and maybe delete some of their content in order to avoid suspension. " makes sense

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in reply to utzer [Friendica]

Tio

in reply to utzer [Friendica] 3 years ago

it is easy to get on such a list and hard to get off

Yes this is an issue I agree. But at least if you know there is 1 place where you can see if you are on such lists and argue against if you are one of them, seems better than not knowing at all. Right now for example I have no clue if my instance is blocked by other or not. It is not at all transparent.

What I would like it so be able to set accounts on my servers as unlisted, so that all their posts don't show up in remove public timelines.

Good idea!

Also I would like to be able to receive reported accounts, so I as an admin can decide what to do about an account. I would like this process to adhere to the laws applicable, so the reported account gets notified and I want this account owner to be able to respond and maybe delete some of their content in order to avoid suspension.

I agree with this too.

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in reply to Tio

censored for “transphobia”

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

The list would violate the GDPR for any accounts listed which identify an individual; e.g. if their nick is their full name. If the lists are diligent to only include (pseudo)anonymous accounts, I suspect it would be #GDPR compliant, but then someone could stay off the list just by choosing a nick that looks like a real name.

@utzer @heluecht @amolith @Gargron @hypolite @snopyta @hankg @humanetech @aral @jeena @dansup @pluralistic @tblock @xantulon @informapirata @toplesstopics @roko

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

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censored for “transphobia”

in reply to censored for “transphobia” 3 years ago

We also have to ask what happens in cases were someone uses a pseudonym for their acct but their pseudonym is well known publicly to associate to an individual in the EU? I have no idea, but would be interested in the answer. I suspect it’s quite dicey territory.

in reply to censored for “transphobia”

Tio

in reply to censored for “transphobia” 3 years ago

Interesting I didn't think about this but am not sure if it would be an issue if the account is public.

Unknown parent

Tio

Unknown parent 3 years ago

Yes but considering right now we have no clue who banned what then maybe if we could see in the instance's description what lists are enabled or not, could give us a more transparent overview of such decissions.

Unknown parent

Tio

Unknown parent 3 years ago

I will have to look at this in more detail to understand. Am curious

in reply to Tio

sky_scat

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

From a user perspective (I'm not an admin, I don't run a host) I'm concerned about this topic. It's not clear to me the need for centralized censorship lists. What is the problem that isn't adequately handled by current technology (muting, blocking, imposed content warnings)?

Most of the concepts behind bans are personal points of view. For instance, my chosen home server caters to naturists and nudists. Some might like to see us banned as "pornography." Trom.tf courageously hosts @ToplessTopics, a top-freedom advocate who has been banned from just about every other venue as "pornography" or "adult content."

How is this list to be regulated? By the number of votes? What if 99% of the submissions agree to ban a certain religion, or vegans, or economists who wear yellow shirts on Tuesday? What measures protect the voice of the minority or of protesters? What stops the list on an individual's repository from becoming their own property catering to their whims?

I understand admins need to exercise

TROM.tf – trade-free online services

^trom.tf

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

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in reply to sky_scat

Tio

in reply to sky_scat 3 years ago

What is the problem that isn't adequately handled by current technology (muting, blocking, imposed content warnings)?

Right so I do not want these list either to be honest. I am against banning people/instances at the instance level. But after many discussions on the fediverse I realized that many admins block other instances and users, and this is non-transparent. This idea with block lists is to address these non-transparent and "personal" decisions and to give users the power to quickly block spammers and bots.

How is this list to be regulated? By the number of votes? What if 99% of the submissions agree to ban a certain religion, or vegans, or economists who wear yellow shirts on Tuesday?

Because you make lists based on what you want to ban, like adblockers do. And it is up to the users what lists they want. There are adblocker lists about blocking ads and trackers, some block fb, twitter and the like, others porn and so forth. WHo decides? I do not know...who decides for adblockers?

in reply to Tio

sky_scat

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I'm not sure ad blockers are the best comparison. Ad blockers serve to prevent invasion of a computer system by malicious JavaScript and tracking beacons. Bad JavaScript can result in the security compromise of systems possibly resulting in takeover. It makes sense for knowledgeable people to offer prepared lists of known sources of malicious software for ad blocker users.

In the Fediverse the most dangerous thing is an idea, or worse, a conversation about an idea. Dangerous as ideas may be, they don't compromise the programmatic Integrity of an operating system giving control to a state actor or a group hell bent on compromising bank accounts. They don't follow someone from web site to web site constantly nagging them to buy something.

The proposed lists seem to me more like email blacklists. To a degree blacklists help with spam, but they're a mallet where often a scalpel is needed.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think ready-made blacklists that users can apply simply with a click and nary a second thought strikes me as similar to big tech's algorithms.

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

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in reply to sky_scat

Tio

in reply to sky_scat 3 years ago

Look I am the one who tries to fight against admins blocking entire servers or users. I had many discussions about this and I think it is wrong for an admin to do that. Users can do whatever they wish to with their online presence.

That being said adblockers block ads, many of whom are not dangerous to any computer, just to the mind (an annoyance). The fediverse will be more and more full of spammers and scammers and bots. We need some lists for those, at least. And the rest of the lists (porn, guns, whatever) are a good alternative to what it is happening now. If the lists are public one can at least see their name/instance there and do something about that. But now you are blind to it all.

in reply to Tio

sky_scat

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

I appreciate what you have to offer, and I'm not saying it's wrong. Remember, I'm offering my views from a user perspective, not as an admin.

What I am doing is writing to the larger audience. You and I (and others in this thread) are having a discussion, which is what I think the Fediverse excels at. You make your case, I make mine, others chime in with additional thoughts. Beyond all of us participating directly, there is the larger audience of readers who don't participate but do read and think about what everyone has to say.

This topic needs as much input as it can get. From you, from everyone you included in the OP, and from anyone else who would like to participate.

I've given my viewpoint. I make no pretense that it's correct; it's just how I see things from my perspective as a user at this point in time.

Your viewpoint is just as valid, and just as important.

It's not about winning an argument---it's about getting as many differing viewpoints as possible to be considered before a final decision is made.

If I have given the impression tha

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

in reply to sky_scat

Tio

in reply to sky_scat 3 years ago

Oh no am not sure how you interpreted my comment. Was in no way combative or anything like that :). The reason I made this post was exactly for this: to get reactions and discussions. You make some good points and I am absorbing them. All friendly, 100% :)

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

in reply to sky_scat

sky_scat

in reply to sky_scat 3 years ago

I appreciate your desire for transparency, but there's a dark side to that, as well. Imagine such a set of lists where who is being blocked and who submitted the proposal to block them is publicly viewable.

Now image the person or people behind the blocked/banned website. They know exactly who is against them. Their target is perfectly described. Now comes the DDoSing, the doxing, the swatting, the complaint calls to employers, the endless harassment in other channels; or, if it's a corporation, a polite call from the legal department.

If I ran a server, the last thing I would do is make a public pronouncement about who I'm blocking and who told me to do so.

@tio @Gargron @amolith @aral @dansup @hankg @heluecht @humanetech @hypolite @informapirata @jeena @pluralistic @roko @snopyta @tblock @toplesstopics @utzer @xantulon

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

in reply to sky_scat

Tio

in reply to sky_scat 3 years ago

You can say the same about the adblockers and those who submit the entries. Is google, fb and otehr companies coming after these people? I don't think so. Also, I am talking mainly about lists for spammers, scammers and bots. Plus you can make it so that the submission is quite anonymous. I don't see this as an issue really.

in reply to sky_scat

censored for “transphobia”

in reply to sky_scat 3 years ago

Transparency is needed particularly when a node admin does the blocking. E.g. mastodon.social currently blocks mg@101010.pl & does so in a deceptive way that disguises the fact that the ban is done by mastodon.social not 101010.pl. It’s an abusive Reddit-style shadowban that keeps both sides of the ban in the dark.

@tblock @hypolite @pluralistic @aral @Gargron @dansup @humanetech @amolith @heluecht @informapirata @hankg @snopyta @roko @tio @toplesstopics @xantulon @utzer @jeena

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

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in reply to censored for “transphobia”

censored for “transphobia”

in reply to censored for “transphobia” 3 years ago

Of course when a bully is banned, then transparency harms bully victims.

The fedi needs to treat bullies different than politically motivated censorship.

MG is a beneficial svc but mastodon.social makes a value judgement to censor a fedi service from the biggest swath of fedi users. Abuse by admins needs transparency

@tblock @hypolite @pluralistic @aral @Gargron @dansup @humanetech @amolith @heluecht @informapirata @hankg @snopyta @roko @tio @toplesstopics @xantulon @utzer @jeena

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

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Aral Balkan

in reply to censored for “transphobia” 3 years ago

This comes down to the fundamental design of instances of many: everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. The admin of an instance of hundreds of thousands is, whether they like it or not or want to be or not, a de facto mini Zuckerberg. (1/2)

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in reply to Aral Balkan

Aral Balkan

in reply to Aral Balkan 3 years ago

I love that we have the fediverse but that’s why I see it as a stopgap. If we want to solve this problem from first principles, we should be looking to design systems that make a web of “instances of one” viable. (Keeping in mind that it’s not a trivial problem to solve and is not going to happen overnight.)

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in reply to Aral Balkan

Jorge Luis

in reply to Aral Balkan 3 years ago

reminds me of a poll I have recently made. I think having personal instances is a good way to go. Although, not everyone would consider this feasible. Additionally, how would this be different to communities where the moderation is left to the user?

The poll I mention: saturno.com.ve/notice/AJIznfEX…

Jorge Luis (@jorge@saturno.com.ve)

The direction the #Fediverse should take, according to you, should be dominated by...

^{saturno.com.ve}

in reply to Aral Balkan

Iron Bug

in reply to Aral Balkan 3 years ago

users aren't prevented from running their own server with black jack and scripts. I don't see those fans of decentralization when it comes to hiring a server on hosting, paying for it and administrating it. it's amazing thing: people like "freedom" while they don't have to contribute.

in reply to Iron Bug

censored for “transphobia”

in reply to Iron Bug 3 years ago

Yes but how do users know when they need their own svr (or another svr)?

The problem is not so much that an admin can abuse their power; it’s that when they choose to abuse their pwr it’s invisible to the users. Admins need control but a fair & balanced system spotlights bad admin actions so users know to bounce & avoid poorly admin’d nodes.

/cc (list shortened to just those who’ve participated)
@hypolite @heluecht @aral @humanetech @tio @sky_scat @xantulon

@Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Hypolite Petovan @Aral Balkan @sky_scat @xantulon

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in reply to censored for “transphobia”

censored for “transphobia”

in reply to censored for “transphobia” 3 years ago

#Lemmy is an interesting case b/c the s/w includes a modlog, so users can review the modlog and check whether a moderator or admin is reasonable. But with Lemmy it’s just an illusion b/c admins of the flagship instance (lemmy.ml) have actually been caught deleting modlogs when public attention is on an embarrassingly poor admin action.

We need to get those modlogs on a public blockchain ;)
@hypolite @heluecht @aral @humanetech @tio @sky_scat @xantulon

#lemmy @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Hypolite Petovan @Aral Balkan @sky_scat @xantulon

in reply to censored for “transphobia”

censored for “transphobia”

in reply to censored for “transphobia” 3 years ago

So consider this: Brussels police posted recovered stolen property on Facebook. Victims not on FB were unable to see if their stolen property was recovered, thus the police were only serving victims who use FB. When that story came to r/Brussels, Octave censored it.

You might say “fair enough, he’s the mod”. But admins & moderators are empowered by their users & Reddit ensures that most users are unaware of power abuses.
@hypolite @heluecht @aral @humanetech @tio @sky_scat @xantulon

@Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Hypolite Petovan @Aral Balkan @sky_scat @xantulon

in reply to Aral Balkan

Tio

in reply to Aral Balkan 3 years ago

Yeah I do not think is a good idea to have such massive clusters.

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in reply to censored for “transphobia”

Tio

in reply to censored for “transphobia” 3 years ago

Of course when a bully is banned, then transparency harms bully victims.

But if a user bans the bully, then there is no reason for the bully to know. Transparency means for instances. When instances ban, it should be transparent to all. What users do with their own accounts is their own private business. But when instances do these sort of things, and affect other users, then it should be automatically public.

in reply to Tio

xantulon

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

If this were easy it wouldn't be an issue... What I'm wondering about the privacy/GDPR related issues, is if user names could be hashed and only the hash is transferred to the block list and comply with privacy concerns. The real issue is, one person's sarcasm is another person's insult. It requires a pattern of, call it, abuse, and that's hard to automate. Employers, and some license applications scan social media, and I can imagine it could be very damaging to show up on block lists because you speak up about a specific ideology. This already happens in far too many places now

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in reply to xantulon

Tio

in reply to xantulon 3 years ago

Maybe the solution is to focus on spammers, bots. That would be a saner approach maybe so you dont mix in with all sorts of personal judgements and make the list more objective.

in reply to Tio

Hypolite Petovan

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

How do you separate dealing with spamming personal accounts and launder personal grievances towards personal accounts?

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in reply to Hypolite Petovan

Tio

in reply to Hypolite Petovan 3 years ago

I do not have an exact answer. How are the ones behind adblockers or the new content blockers for youtube, dealing with these? Will they remove self promoting content from some websites? How about the lists of trackers, are they gonna remove the trackers that are there for the purpose of making a website work? idk...but these projects started somewhere and got better and better over time, and super useful at what they do.

Labeling certain accounts as spamming or bots, or whole instances, may not be far from what the above examples are doing.

Unknown parent

censored for “transphobia”

Unknown parent 3 years ago

It’s a mess indeed. When a whole node is blocked, the blockade /should/ have transparency. Transparency in that scenario isn’t a pillory that we care about since it’s not targeting individuals. Blocking individuals is tricky. If Alice blocks Bob b/c he’s bullying or stalking her, then Alice needs to block Bob w/out Bob knowing (there’s a Github thread on that).

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

@Tio @utzer ~Friendica~ @Michael Vogel @Amolith @Eugen @Hypolite Petovan @Snopyta @Hank G @Humane Tech Now @ar.al🌻 @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow's linkblog @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee
I know I'm late but I didn't check my Friendica account last day, so I'm only seeing this post now.

I have actually brought up this idea of blocklists before, but at the time we were talking about implementing something like that in a peer to peer system, because there are no admins or moderators there, users have to do everything themselves and having such a list can be helpful. And I hear some people saying they don't like the idea of a centralized list, but it doesn't have to be a single list you know, if someone disagrees with the list then they can always fork it and such, this is not a big issue IMO because we've already dealt with these problems in the domain of ad-blocking lists. And its important to categorize the list, so for example if someone is okay with nudity then they can choose to not block that category.

I'd like to know about the moderation tools that fediverse admins have access to. Can an instance admin simply remove an account or an entire instance from their local/global timeline without outright blocking them? So this means that their posts won't appear on the instance's timeline, but if a user follows them directly then they'll see the posts on their home timeline. I believe it would help a lot if admins have the power to do this, because there are some edge cases where they may not feel like banning it entirely, but just to get rid of it from the public's view.

When we're talking about censorship concerns in the fediverse, its important to address how easy it is for users to move instances, and currently with platforms like Mastodon, Friendica, etc, its not so easy. From what I've read so far, Hubzilla does it a lot better I think, because they have this concept called "nomadic identities". And Hubzilla also supports cloning so you can clone your account across multiple instances to make it resilient, how cool is that? 😀
I'm not exactly sure if moving instances in Hubzilla would also port over all of the previous user data, but that would be super cool if they can do that, so I can move from one instance to another without loosing all of my old posts and replies.

Another thing I'd like to see in a decentralized social media is an additional p2p implementation which can be used to talk to users or other instances directly without first going through my own instance, this would essentially solve most of the censorship concerns because now you don't have to rely entirely on your instance to communicate. But there comes some issues like what if I like/share a post, for that I'll have to depend on my instance right?
So maybe fediverse isn't the best place to add p2p, it wasn't originally made for that. Some of you may know about the p2p social network scuttlebutt.nz/, this actually does a lot of those things I listed above, with an option to use servers if needed. Only issue I have with this is that it won't scale as well as the fediverse. Because in Scuttlebutt you have to store all the information on your device itself, if you just joined a server then you'll have to first sync and download all the content that's on the server to your phone, and this can take lots of storage space. This video addresses some of these concerns -
So IMO the sane way to do it would be to find a sweet spot between what Hubzilla does and what Scuttlebut does. You don't have to make the network entirely p2p and make everyone store everyone else's data, its OK to rely on federated servers as long as its easy to move from one to another and supports cloning like in Hubzilla. If Scuttlebut only needs storing my own posts, replies, and other data then I don't see any issue with that, because this data is probably needed to move between different clients or servers. But I think storing the data of everyone in the network is overkill, let the users store a local copy of their own data and also keep a backup of the same data in the server(s) of their choice.

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee

in reply to Rokosun

Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

I'd like to know about the moderation tools that fediverse admins have access to. Can an instance admin simply remove an account or an entire instance from their local/global timeline without outright blocking them? So this means that their posts won't appear on the instance's timeline, but if a user follows them directly then they'll see the posts on their home timeline.

I would like to also know this. @Hypolite Petovan @Michael Vogel is this a reasonable possibility? Perhaps the ability to have a list of instances/users that are made unlisted on the public timeline and can only be visible to the ones interacting with them directly.

because there are some edge cases where they may not feel like banning it entirely, but just to get rid of it from the public's view.

Yes and this is why Peertube

@Michael 🇺🇦 @Hypolite Petovan

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Tio

Unknown parent 3 years ago

I guess the solution is that users individually can block other users but it is kept to them.

This, yes! Perhaps such lists should be for individual users, applied for their own selves, not for instance admins. Not sure what is best...

in reply to Tio

Tio

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

By the way I want to mention that I really hate when admins block users/instances. They should only do that in extreme situations (like spam and bots). But I do understand that we need tools for this as well. Also you have to understand that if we do not have a better solution to this admins will continue to ban users/instances in a non-transparent way. Friendica at least publishes all such blocks publicly by default. But it needs to also send a notification to all users when a decision like this has happened.

So the discussion is very important. I see these adblock-like lists mostly geared for users and not admins.

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in reply to Tio

Tio

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

So on Friendica whenever admins add domains to the blocklist, it becomes public at /friendica url. Admins are also forced to explain the reason of the block.

Now I have asked them to automatically add a notification to all users of that instance when a domain is added or removed from the list - github.com/friendica/friendica… . This is a move in the right direction.

Friendica is leading the way to a great social platform in so many regards, and the develops, @Michael Vogel @Hypolite Petovan and @Tobias are so friendly and open to suggestions. I hope this never changes because it is the most important aspect of Friendica. I really feel comfortable talking to these guys and suggesting improvements for Friendica, without (hopefully) overwhelming or annoying them.

@Michael 🇺🇦 @Hypolite Petovan @Tobias

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rastinza

Unknown parent 3 years ago

I don't see what the problem would be with that.
The list would be to help people who don't want to see that stuff to block it.
If someone is interested, why shouldn't he search it?
@utzer @Gargron @hypolite @aral @hankg @dansup @humanetech @jeena @snopyta @pluralistic @amolith @tio @tblock @xantulon @informapirata @toplesstopics @roko

@utzer [Friendica] @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee @Rokosun

in reply to Tio

Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

So the last time we talked about this topic I explained how most of these censorship issues could be avoided by using peer to peer systems. But now I wanna take a look at the fediverse itself and see how we can make things better. I have an idea that I want to share with you all, because I think it could solve a lot of issues with our current method of moderation. I felt like it was better to make a separate post for it so explained it here - social.trom.tf/display/dbc8dc4…

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee

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Rokosun

Unknown parent 3 years ago

@Humane Tech Now @Emacsen @CSDUMMI✝️🕊️🏛️ @utzer ~Friendica~ @Michael Vogel @Tio @Amolith @Eugen @Hypolite Petovan @Snopyta @Hank G @ar.al🌻 @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow's linkblog @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee

I have made another post to explain about the social impacts of moderation & censorship - social.trom.tf/display/dbc8dc4…

So far we've been talking only about the technical side of things, to see how we can improve moderation by giving more power and choice to the users. But looking at some of the replies I got on my last post I felt like maybe a lot of people don't understand why we're doing it in the first place, why should we give more power to the users over admins? So I wrote this post, to answer that question, but also to make people understand how much of a complex topic moderation actually is, it isn't just simply "blocking bad content".

@utzer [Friendica] @Michael 🇺🇦 @Tio @Amolith @Eugen Rochko @Hypolite Petovan @snopyta @Hank G @Aral Balkan @Jeena @dansup @Cory Doctorow @Emacsen @CSDUMMI✝️🕊️🏛️ @TBlock @xantulon @Informa Pirata @Cleo McKee

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

I started to work on TROM II again today. Did a bit of work. Happy with it. Still a lot more to do for the second part. Sometimes I'm thinking...is it worth spending 3 hours to do this little video effect for this little part of the documentary!?...but it takes time. Even a simple thing you have to keyframe it, move, mask, add a sound effect and all that...I try not to go too nuts with it tho so let's see if I can finish this second part in a week or so. It is also fucking hot... #tromlive

#tromlive

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Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

So I can't fix the TROMnews Illustrations...no bibliogram instance is working....yeah that's the world we live in you can't access the PUBLIC instagram accounts UNLESS you have an instagram account and use their app. Of course! Inter-opera-bili-ty mi-ass. #tromlive

#tromlive

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The Ghost of Émilie

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

@frankie@mstdn.social CC

@Dr. Percy

in reply to Tio

Gidi Kroon

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

@Tio I don't understand, I use the fact that public posts and accounts are accessible via the web quite a lot. I just tested again with a public profile in an incognito tab without logging in. Works fine. But I use their site, not some third party site. Is there a reason you can't use their site? Which public Instagram account are you trying to reach?

Coincidentally I've just today been experimenting with (commercial product) Iframely, and at "https://iframely.com/embed" you can get valid embed codes for Instagram posts that you normally would need an api key for; just in case this is in some way an alternative to what you want to achieve (your other categories looked like they are based on embeds, that's why I'm mentioning this).

@Tio

This entry was edited (3 years ago)

in reply to Gidi Kroon

Tio

in reply to Gidi Kroon 3 years ago

So I want to access the photos without being on their website or using their app. Say this account's photos instagram.com/steve_cutts_offi… - like an RSS feed for example. You could do that via Bibliogram (front end for instagram) but they block it and the IP's using it...also if you want to use their API you need accounts, access, and is a mess.

in reply to Tio

Gidi Kroon

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

@Tio I can access that account without logging in. Quite nice illustrations! But this is indeed on their site and you need to clear cookies every two posts you open. I don't see how you can use Instagram without using their app or site (there's no rss and the api doesn't allow that kind of access), but having an account is not needed.

@Tio

in reply to Gidi Kroon

Tio

in reply to Gidi Kroon 3 years ago

I am sure I was unable to access certain accounts from desktop before unless I had a mobile + app + login. So on desktop it seems you can access them via the browser but my point was not that, we need access from outside like any website should provide. Like an RSS feed or open API, so we can grab the content without being on their website or use their app.

in reply to Tio

Gidi Kroon

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

@Tio this grabbing content thing is exactly what they are trying to prevent...

@Tio

in reply to Gidi Kroon

Tio

in reply to Gidi Kroon 3 years ago

yeah I know haha...that's why I pointed out at the fuckery...of course, for them this content is not free, is for trade. To use it to trade with the advertisers and what not...

Tio

3 years ago

Tio
3 years ago

Damn I went through all of the TROM Memes....from yesterday to today, I checked some 4-5 thousand...not healthy! But I am done. I have reduced them down to 2.8 thousand in total, the rest were duplicates or the ones we did not need anymore. I have added them to social.tromsite.com - and now our system will kick in and randomly take 1 of the 2.849 photos that we have, and post it as new. That will then be reshared on our @TROM Friendica page in ActivityPub format.

Also thank you @Airton for helping with some of them!

Now that's done! I wanted to do that for the past 3-4 years and never had the time to do it. No more memes to post for the next many months. But if we are to post the ones we have, every day, one a day, it will take 7-8 YEARS to post them all. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK. I made so many memes that it will take some 8 years to post one a day hahahaha.

TROM has so much content people have no idea. And we will make more, regardless if anyone is interested or not :P #tromlive

#tromlive @TROM @Airton

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Tio

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

Funny this is what you get after editing some 4 thousand photos in 2 days:

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Rokosun

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

Damn, you just edited 4 thousand photos in 2 days! My head hurts just thinking about it 🥴

Also I hope your hand gets better :)

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Tio

in reply to Rokosun 3 years ago

hehe is already better :)

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in reply to Tio

Chivo

in reply to Tio 3 years ago

Thank you so much for making these! Really beautiful stuff!

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